The Responder: Learning to Care for Yourself While Caring for Others

We unpack the Responder style—how nurturing brings safety and connection, and how over-functioning turns love into control.  You’ll hear the difference between static care that over-plans every risk and dynamic care that adapts in the moment. We talk through the classic attraction dance: why unintegrated Responders often choose highly driven, aggressive partners, how dependency erodes respect, and where emotional or even physical abuse can take root. Instead of pathologizing care or ambition, we focus on integration—reclaiming voice, boundaries, and presence so giving stays generous rather than controlling.

• responder as nurture, safety and acceptance
• when responsibility crowds out spontaneity and joy
• static versus dynamic expressions of personality
• overfunctioning care as smothering and control
• underfunctioning care as neglect and abandonment
• attraction to aggressive partners and abuse risk
• reframing self-care beyond performance and goals
• mistaken beliefs, midlife reevaluation and guilt
• naming narcissistic motives hidden in giving
• core responder traits and common pitfalls
• why teams need the responder’s present-moment voice
• simple steps to expand healthy self-care

If responsibility has swallowed your spontaneity, or if your caring has become a cage, this conversation will help you find the middle path—where safety, joy, and presence can coexist. 

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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)

Chapters

• 0:00 Section A

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:14

Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. I am your co-host, D. Kelly. With me is Jim Shaley, and together we love just talking about issues that have to do with what we've given a portion of our lives to. Therapy, coaching, and dreams. So thanks for being part of it. Jim, glad you're here.

SPEAKER_01: 0:32

Thank you, Dr. Kelly. Is it uh it's okay if I call you, Dr. Kelly?

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Absolutely okay. Yeah, good. We have been taking a deep dive into different aspects, personality expressions in the last few weeks. We're gonna dig a little bit deeper into one we have referenced over and over again and given a lot of clues as to the responder side of personality. We've talked about how wonderful it is to be around a healthy responder because of their anticipation of needs. But we're gonna dig a little bit deeper and look at when there's too much, when there's too little, what it how it comes across when people express in this way. And I'd love, if I could, to kind of introduce it as a bridge from last week. I have a client who was sharing a dream with me, and he described it in this stream. A friend was there, and that friend appeared at the beginning of the stream where he was trying to take a trip and was in a vehicle and doing all kinds of things to get ready. And then the vehicle was kind of being consumed by the ground that was around him. Gave me a big description on that. At one point in time, I said, So I'm just curious, this person that you mentioned, Lena in the dream, who is she? I've never heard you mention her before. And his response was, Well, she's uh she's just a friend from a long time ago, a fun-loving, frivolous person. I said, Well, she's at the beginning of the dream and she dis disappears. If she's a part of who you are, what part of you might that be? And he said, I I don't know. And I said, Well, you are in a midst of season of life where you are consumed with all kinds of responsibilities. And he's very static-oriented. Good expressions of both masculine and feminine as life, but very static oriented. And I said, Your responsibility is consuming all of who you are as you try and manage everything that's taken place. So let's come back to Lena again, who appears at the beginning and this kind of disappears. And that frivolous, fun-loving, spontaneous part of you that's completely absent now and not finding any expression is it didn't even wonder that you're feeling anxiety, feeling overwhelmed, feeling all of those things. And it was this moment for him of reflection and saying, Yeah, I've got no time for any of that.

SPEAKER_01: 3:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 3:19

And I said, okay, so maybe that's where we need to begin exploring what it means to be healthy and balanced, because all of the responsibility in the world is, you know, you do that well, but it's certainly not going to bring any health to your life. And the pathway here is going to lead to some real dysfunctions if you're not careful.

SPEAKER_01: 3:38

Is that is that his natural energy? The be the responsibility side or not? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 3:44

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it it has been his method of success. And so it brings rewards. But right now it's overwhelming, and there's just no space for the spontaneity. So, anyway, last week we were talking about tapping into the spontaneity side. Now we're looking at the responder side and how it has some wonderful traits, but also some real problematic issues if it's overfunctioning or underfunctioning. Right?

SPEAKER_01: 4:10

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 4:12

Absolutely. So I didn't know if I I missed I missed the part. Is Lena an actual person in his life?

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

Lena's a person out of his past. Oh, like like early college, something like that.

SPEAKER_01: 4:23

Oh, okay. So he has he doesn't have a person at present that that has the responder's types. No. No. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So did did you present it to you present that side to him as far as what he needs to work on or not?

SPEAKER_00: 4:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: 4:42

Okay. How do you respond?

SPEAKER_00: 4:44

The reaction to that was I got no time for it. Is that what he said? But the combination of, oh, I long for that, but I don't have time. Uh it is, I have so much to to get done, I can't.

SPEAKER_01: 4:59

That's the classic thing because we talked about a little bit, we alluded to last week, the initiator, which typically is responsible and gets things done like his natural energy being really responsible, even though it's static, that's also masculine. And they are almost always attracted to the responder type because they let them go be responsible and build things. And then they have somebody at home typically that nurtures and takes care and protects and does all those things that build a nest for someone. He doesn't have that in his life at this point? No. No. Okay. So so the challenge would be okay, we externalize it, we marry that, or we're in a relationship with that rather than integrating it, like we've talked about over the weeks. And so for him, that's got to be interesting for him to even visualize seeing the value and taking the time to even see what it would look like to nurture him, to accept him, to not judge him, to do something that brings life to him. I mean, does he even have any concept for that? But that would be the that's how challenging this is to figure out, okay, I don't have time for that. Well, wait a minute. Well, so then what do people do? Sometimes they'll they'll go to massage, they'll get massages, they'll go to the health club, they'll do things that have that theme to it of self-care, but in their minds it'd be more practical or more goal-driven, because I go to the health club to work out. They don't see that as probably nurturing. So does he work out at all?

SPEAKER_00: 6:32

Good question. I don't know that we've gotten into that. Yeah, I'm not sure. Okay. It's interesting to me. Tell me if you think I'm wrong on this, that very responsible people can fall on the often fall on the stabilizer side where there's an organizational, yeah, that kind of static masculine. But I also view sometimes the nurturer, the responder, the caregiver as expressing a different kind of responsibility. They take absolute responsibility for the care of the home, the care of the environment sometimes, the care and nurturing of whatever it is that has captured their attention and imagination. And it's that sense of responsibility when over a long period of time they don't get anything back that sometimes the resentment sets in or sometimes depression starts to overwhelm them.

SPEAKER_01: 7:28

Especially especially if they can't identify that if they can't uh own the fact that they were looking for something back. If they can't see that part of it, then they'll get more depressed than frustrated or resentful. If they get in touch with the idea that they were supposed to get something back, then they can get resentful. And they have to work through that and then have to own the part that it was partly them that set it up that way. The other thing that we the other thing that there's lots of uh lots of different directions to go with with this whole framework, because there's also a negative, there's a there's a negative and a positive approach, or there's a static and a dynamic approach to each one of these. So a responder can be very static and very dynamic. A transformer can be very static and very dynamic. A static transformer would be, let's say, a drug-addicted person, where they're so caught up in uh masking that energy that they'll stay stuck, but they'll also be doing excessive behaviors in some ways, but they and they won't be able to get out of it. So I think that's something we can talk about at some point. But that's that'd be like the responder to your point. They can be so good at it that they plan for every situation and you almost feel stifled by it.

SPEAKER_00: 8:44

Great bridge, that notion of feeling stifled. A responder this static feminine side that all of us have within us at some level, when that is over-functioning, when it is not only your style of expression that dominates, but that it overoperates. It can be an incredibly smothering styling. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think I saw one time in something you had written the you use the language, which I know is a little bit sexist because it can be male or female, but that the overfunctioning castrates the other. This sense in which the responder becomes so consumed with safety and taking care of things that you keep your children, you keep your significant other from doing anything. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01: 9:42

And that's and that's why the the feminine side of that is so interesting because when we talk about the stabilizer, they do somewhat of that. They say do somewhat smothering, but they do it and they will have a logical reason for it. The responder will smother you and and and couch it with, I love you so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:04

And both will feel like it's it's it's stifling and smothering.

SPEAKER_01: 10:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:08

So the masculine side will say, No, these are the rules. Right. And the the responder side, the feminine side, will say, I love you, you can't do that. It's not safe. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So what about the underfunctioning of that responder side when they are when there's no voice of that in your life? It's absent.

SPEAKER_01: 10:36

Well, you're I think that's what you're experiencing in the gentleman you referred to. I mean, that's where he's so so overly responsible that he hasn't doesn't have time to take care of himself. And then you you you can s you can quickly move into kind of a kind of a victim mode or you know, feeling sorry for yourself mode where, you know, I just got I don't have time for that. And so they minimize that self-care. Because on some level, they bought into the idea that success or goal setting or being responsible is indeed life-giving to them. When really all they've done is lean in, from my perspective, they just leaned into their natural style of being, because to develop the other side seems too stressful. I mean, how many times have you run into people that that know their pattern and they've worked on it and they've not been able to conquer it, and they just kind of go, you know, just kind of who I am. I'm tired of fighting.

SPEAKER_00: 11:25

Yeah. Yeah. There's also this side where if there's no responder or there's too little of it, not only will you abandon your own work, but sometimes you'll abandon others. You'll you'll not find the energy to care for and nurture a relationship or nurture and care for a project. You just abandon it because you don't have any of that caring side, trying to keep something alive and keep it going.

SPEAKER_01: 11:58

That's why that's why it's so important on the on the minutest level, if you can, is find some way in which they're expressing this energy that they're unaware of. Because then as soon as you identify that they do it somewhere in their life, that helps them realize, okay, can can I expand that? What would it look like to expand that? So for example, that's why I use the example of, excuse me, going to the health club, to see that as self-care and not as a thing to keep me from dying or it's it's it's a goal I have to set, I have to set, I have to lift this much this many weights, or whatever that is, but to let get them to see that that that really is the nurturing aspect that they want to integrate and what's it looked like to expand it. Because again, if you if you ask enough questions, you will almost always see that each person expresses each of these quadrants that we're talking about in some form. Yes, there is a bias, there is one that's more natural, but always there's uh something we're doing that is expressing that.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

I think I'm picking up on something you've said in the past, but I'd love for you to maybe give a little more explanation to it if possible, that someone who is this way but is very unaware of their own tendencies, that this style of personality, the responder, will often be drawn toward abuse or abusive behavior. Yeah. Can you maybe I don't not necessarily give an example, but tell us why. What is it that makes that attraction happen?

SPEAKER_01: 13:43

Uh obviously initially initially they would never identify that attraction. But when you think about the negative aspects of both of those, so the responder sets it up so that I'm gonna make your life so easy at home. Let's just use the stereotype of the traditional setup where the where the feminine will stay home and take care of the family, the masculine will go out and make the living. It could be either I'll be man or woman. But in this situation, let's just use the man-woman scenario. So the woman's job and that the the feminine, the responder's job in that moment is to make this man's life so comfortable that he can pursue his kingdom. So he does it. And for the first ten years, he is he is making money. They've bought a bigger house, he's bought his wife an incredible SUV, an escalade with because it's just it's just working. Kids are, you know, grade school age, and then all of a sudden the the man the man's working all the time, all the time. And now the responder starts to notice they're irritable and they're more upset than they used to be. And they start saying, You work all the time, you're never home. So the responder starts getting in touch with the negative side of that, which is the negative stabilizer, which is you're working too much. And so now the husband stays stays out longer, doesn't come home as often. They start arguing more. The next thing you know, he's feeling more and more accountable or smothered. If he has any aggressive traits in him, which he does, because he's if let's say he's uh he's got a company and he runs the company, and all of a sudden he's really nice at at work, couple people love him at work, he comes home and the wife's saying, You're always at work, you're never home. I'm tired of doing this by myself, I can't do it anymore. Yeah, if he has any aggressive side that he could bring that that could the abuse could come out, first of all, in arguing, and then all of a sudden they'd be screaming at each other. So that's the that's the more generic setup. The other one that I think you ask about is that there could be an attraction to someone who who is a who has a tendency to be abusive because the responder is way too giving. And so they're out of balance. And they actually need to take charge of their life, and if they can't, they will be attracted to the strong, aggressive, abusive masculine of the initiator and transformer. And that's where I think the more extreme you are, the more likely you are to be attracted to that type. So if I'm if I'm cr an incredible, let's say, pushover or a doormat, as the phrase used to be, I will be attracted to an aggressive, strong masculine that oftentimes will resent the the dependency of the responder, because that's the real negative of the responder, is they become incredibly dependent. And when the initiator feels that dependency, they lack respect for it, and then they can become abusive. That's a long explanation, but there's a lot in there. But that first scenario is more uh normal in some ways as far as how it plays out, and and going into therapy, I have a case right now where that's basically what's happened. They're catching it at a good time, I hope, but that's more normal. The the other one is more extreme because, again, you're way out of balance. Just like just like the straw masculine initiator will be attracted to that swooning, dependent personality because in the beginning they're worshiping the man to use that stereotype. And yeah, that almost always becomes or can become really abusive.

SPEAKER_00: 17:44

Well, uh the dynamic side, really, whether it's transformer initiator, whether it's masculine or feminine, that dynamic side has an attractiveness that's magnetic. And sometimes people have developed a sensitivity that it repels them because they've had too many experiences with somebody who's mistreated them that had that dynamic energy, but that comes with time. There's this initial attraction to the energy that you want to ride. You you love the people that surround the moment or the circumstances, the experiences that surround that kind of thing and drawn into it.

SPEAKER_01: 18:23

Yeah. I mean, just think about it. If you walk into a let's just use the the the idea of the bar. If you walk into a bar and an attractive woman walks up to you and they swoon over you and they can't wait to be around you, they they suck up to you, they they they worship you, they tend to that narcissistic man, that's a setup. Because that unconscious attraction, from my perspective, if that woman is that dependent, that man is absolutely too aggressive.

SPEAKER_00: 18:52

Yeah. Great point.

unknown: 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:54

Okay, so here's it's shift focus just a little bit. You have somebody who comes into the office, and the perspective of this individual is nurturing responder personality style. Okay. But it is so obvious that it this approach is overfunctioning, doing so much to the detriment of their own journey. And it comes out in the conversation. And it seems obvious to you, but as is often the case, it's not obvious to the client. How do you begin to draw out of an individual the ways in which this overfunctioning is actually hindering their growth?

SPEAKER_01: 19:37

Great question. I would start with the positives and say, what do you provide for the family that has worked really well in the past and try to get them to identify their energy level and that it's different now. So they're they're more exhausted. They may they may not be initiate as much stuff with the kids as they used to, somehow where they start expressing how it's affecting their life. And then I always try to validate how important that energy is. But at some point in midlife, especially, and that's where I use my framework of a midlife crisis, I reframe it and say it's a it's an it's an evaluation of do I want to keep doing what I've been doing. So that sets it out of the emotional component a little bit, and I normalize that it's just a part of living. And then they they they you can feel their energy shift a little bit, like this is normal. And so you're just re-evaluating if this is still working for you. Sometimes they push back and say, well, that's my role. And then I'll have to have that conversation about, well, is that a role that's satisfying like it used to be, which almost always it isn't. And so then if and most of the time they've already started doing something to get in touch with another aspect. They'll either be hanging out with their girlfriends more, if it's the woman, they'll be not going to as many school functions with the kids. Something will be happening subtly that they feel guilty about. And then I'll point out and say, well, that's an expression of taking care of yourself. And maybe you neglect it. So you you couch it obviously very, you know, like what's the word I'm looking for? You don't make a big deal. You just make it kind of casual, like, well, you're already kind of doing that because you're you seem to be exhausted, so you're trying to get energy from someplace. And I said that's I'll say that's what that is. So what would it be like to do more of that? Well, I would feel guilty about that. And then you have to attack the guilt and where that comes from. And typically that's where you get into false guilt. I said you're changing your dynamic, so you feel guilty about that, but that's not true guilt. That's false guilt because you want you don't want people to not like you and be frustrated with you changing your roles. Which again makes sense in their heads. And that's that's the beginning point. When it makes sense, uh they still feel helpless as to far as to your point. If it's a natural energy and that's my role, how do I get past feeling guilty?

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Yeah. The one of the pieces that I love of what you just said is when it's no longer working for them. I think that that is often the case. Certainly midlife issues will bring up. But sometimes it happens to teenagers, sometimes it happens to young adults in college, where what they have done to survive no longer works, and there's this sense of dissatisfaction that I'm I'm not enjoying life like I used to. I'm not liking myself like I used to. It's not working. And one of the things that I sometimes use, if it seems appropriate in a given situation, is to say, well, let's start with being grateful to yourself for using a technique that helped you to survive, but it's now no longer useful. So let's not berate that you, that part of you that did that. It helped you get through life. So let's start with a sense of gratitude to that, but also an acknowledgement that something needs to shift because it's no longer working well.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

Yeah, the Adlerian, Alfred Adler, the Adlerian that I was trained in way back in the day, basically calls those mistaken beliefs. So by age five or six or seven, we've formed how we're going to function in the world. And so you're right. Oftentimes, even before we get to midlife, there'll be there'll be times when we realize they no longer work. And then you have to say, do you still need to do that? Because their life has changed so much. And so you have to change, and I always use the phrase, you have to change the mistaken belief into a new mistaken belief. Based upon the present. And I think that's another way for them to get in touch with the idea of, okay, because you can almost always make a connection back to the way they handle their emotions and the family and as to why they had to do that. And as soon as they make that connection, then you can empower them to say, okay, now you really can take charge of the emotional expression that you know you want to do present time and become more conscious. Which is still a nice concept. It's still going to be very hard to do because in the beginning they're they're kind of made unconsciously as a child. Whereas an adult or a teenager or whatever, you have to do it more on purpose, which which can feel energy draining as well.

SPEAKER_00: 24:40

Yeah, it can feel overwhelming because of the unknown. I've not tried that style before. Absolutely. Where's this going to take me?

SPEAKER_01: 24:48

Yeah, but again, that's where you point out when you when you get them a good sense of all of these expressions and what they look like, you can almost always find a way in which they're expressing them.

SPEAKER_00: 25:00

Great point. Yeah. I also think it's valuable to warn somebody that as you take steps toward change, be prepared that a family system, a family of origin, coworkers, they will react in ways that will make you uncomfortable because they're used to you being a particular way. Absolutely. Yeah, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_01: 25:27

Something happened. What's wrong with you? You're different. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm different. You're weird. So knock it off. So yeah, you're right. And that's again, that's another great point is that what keeps us from changing so much are people's expectations of who we're supposed to continue to be. Yeah. And then we feel guilty or whatever, and then we don't embrace it.

SPEAKER_00: 25:48

I would propose that the personality style that we are looking at today, the responder probably has the greatest sensitivity to the pushback that comes from family, family abortion. Absolutely true. They had this internal reaction of, oh no, I can't mess up this. I need to take care of everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 26:10

Yeah. Because the casual way to express the responder is their pleasers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:16

And so you're absolutely right. It it's almost as if it takes a little more hand holding to say, no, stay with it, stay with it. This is the right thing for your health and goodness and well-being, right?

SPEAKER_01: 26:28

The most tragic yet freeing thing, and this is going to be controversial, that can happen for a responder is to fall madly in love with somebody that's not their spouse. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Because they may not act on it, they may not do anything about it, but they it it just brings a whole thing alive in them that that finally gets them to see that, oh my word, what have I been doing with my life? And that's and that's the the the transformer in them, basically.

SPEAKER_00: 27:00

I mean about and being externalized and then needing to realize, oh, that's a part of me that's inside that I need to pay attention to.

SPEAKER_01: 27:08

And that's another really hard conversation. I had this this week. When you suppress a desire your whole life, and then something happens where it brings it alive, and everybody in your life is telling you you can't do that, I told this person, I said, it's hard pressed to not go do that because you have suppressed it. I said people judge it, they can condemn it, they can do all they want. But I'm telling you what, if you have minimized a need in your life that now at age 45 or whatever, has you found a way to express it or someone expresses it, it's hard pressed to resist the attraction. Good, bad, right, or wrong. And it again, that's I take everything proactively as a way to get to know ourselves and if we believe in the divine, to get to know the divine better. Any other way is is just negative. So if I screw my life up, it's about getting to know myself and getting to know my creator better.

SPEAKER_00: 28:06

So thank you, Jim. One last piece, we touched base on this in a previous episode, but I just want to come back to it. And that is that sometimes responders fail to recognize and are startled when confronted with it, that when they are functioning in this way and it dominates all of who they are, that there's a narcissistic side to that. This giving to others actually as a service to themselves to feel important, to feel needed, to feel like they are integrated into whatever it is that's happening. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:41

That's re Yeah, and that's really difficult for them to acknowledge. When I when I use the phrase, well, that's just your narcissism, because typically they're married to a pretty prototypical narcissist in some ways. They're very successful and and and things like that. And when I use that phrase, they really resist it. But after a while, they smile and they go, Oh, yeah, I can see that. Because you point out the fact that it's very self-absorbed. You need people to like you. Well, that's all about you. So you can say it's it's for the better good of everybody, but no, it's it's about your need.

SPEAKER_00: 29:13

One last thing in kind of bringing this particular discussion to a close. Any one of the other three personality styles, what are you missing out on if you're not paying attention to the responder side of you? If that's not a part that you have nurtured or brought that voice to the table of your decision making, you're gonna miss out on a very important voice if that's always externalized and given over to somebody else. So what are you looking for? What are you missing out on?

SPEAKER_01: 29:49

Real briefly, I mean, real uh succinctly, is uh you're missing out on the moment. Because again, the responder is very good in the moment. Appreciate the moment. They appreciate the time you spend with family. They appreciate that's not always going to be that way. So I would say, yeah, that you you miss, uh f for lack of a better way of expressing it, smelling the smelling the flowers or the roses or whatever that phrase is. Smelling something. Smelling. Smelling something. Good or bad, right or wrong, you're smelling something. I think before we go, I think every time we talk about specific traits, we didn't do that for the responder. Because basically they they nurture, they shelter, they accept, they protect, they they affirm, they take care of things, they express confidence, security, optimism, uh, they trust is a basic value they have, which can be taken advantage of. So you can see the whole the whole theme really is the relationship is most important. They will try to make it as comfortable as they can. They will accept every dynamic. In fact, I had a real quick thing this week where uh a friend of mine called and said that they had had a conversation with someone that revealed some things about their life that would challenge the belief system of my friend. And my friend was basically saying, I think I was too accepting. And their natural energy is to accept. I didn't know, I don't think I challenged enough of their beliefs. And I I I smiled and I just said, it'll be fine. Because basically, that person is going to feel your acceptance whether you challenge him or not, because they came to you for their your acceptance because they're in a place where that's the most important thing to them. I said, you have to trust God with their journey that they'll be thoughtful enough about the process to challenge themselves. So and this pr this friend of mine's an incredible responder. And so, but they were worried that that was too extreme. So it's exactly to your point. It's like, wait a minute. Uh so I gave him permission. I go, we don't give people permission or not permission. They take whatever they take from it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:03

Great point and great story. I think the the initiator, often plowing ahead, doesn't give a second thought to safety issues. And I so many times I've been in a strategic planning thing meeting, and great ideas are going up on the board, and I need a voice in there that says, Yeah, yeah, but what about the children that are not going to, whatever the case is, safety issues here? That in some ways, the Transformer has a very prophetic voice, and like you said, misses the moment right now to be present in what's taking place. So, yeah, this is a really important voice to bring to the table. I will say, in that story you told just a few moments ago, my favorite part is that you have a friend. That's great. You're making progress, Jim.

SPEAKER_01: 32:55

Well, you know, we we take we're hyperbole, we we make things up. So of course you know I made up a friend, a friend made a friend up. Good lord. And the other thing that I want to point out is so when the initiator takes off on a four-wheeler and doesn't really think about the family he has and that he could die doing some of the things he does, yeah, that's uh that's not taking the responder into account. Okay. Thank you for that poignant confrontational moment. And I'm so glad that person doesn't have anybody along with him when we're do when on those trips, because it would inhibit some of the risk taking that we so casually do that we keep to ourselves most of the time.

SPEAKER_00: 33:41

So that's good. I appreciate it, Jim. Hey, as always, great to be with you. We're gonna come back the following week and try and bring some closure to these four quadrants and see where it takes us. So as always. Thanks, man. Yep. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.