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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E13 Midlife: Of Vocation, Of Relationships, Of a Lifespan
The hardest part of growing up isn’t getting older—it’s seeing yourself clearly. We start with a raw reaction to a public figure’s killing and follow the thread into how midlife shakes our beliefs, our relationships, and the stories we tell about who we are. That shift often arrives as discomfort: a spouse says “I’m unhappy,” a job that once thrilled now numbs, a faith you inherited asks to be re-examined. Instead of treating these alarms as failures, we frame them as invitations to look inward with more honesty and less panic.
We break down the small moments that quietly drain connection. We offer a straightforward tool to stop the late-night spiral. We also map how personality differences feed the gridlock: static partners protect harmony; dynamic partners push change. Both have value when we stop using them as weapons and start using them as wisdom.
We go deeper on anger and forgiveness, especially the fear that letting go means someone “got away with it.” Holding on can feel righteous, but it keeps you emotionally married to the past. We explore how to release resentment without denying harm, and how to honor the beliefs that formed you without freezing in them. The result is a kinder, clearer path through the noisy middle—one where intimacy means staying present for hard conversations, not avoiding them, and where growth doesn’t require contempt for your origins.
If this conversation sparked something—about your marriage, your work, or your faith—share it with a friend who’s in their own midlife pivot. Subscribe for more candid tools and stories, and leave a review to tell us what you want us to tackle next.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
And um I'm embracing uh the old man in me, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01:Nice, nice. I don't know. Do you have to click that you're willing to do the recording or does it do it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I do, and I haven't clicked it yet because I'm not sure I want to record this.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, when did you get out there? Did you get out there last night?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I did. Uh guess who uh wanted to have dinner?
SPEAKER_01:Um Cheryl.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my word. Uh I would have said no, sir. Oh, Catherine. Oh, oh. She's uh, you know, it's so funny. She knew. So at the end of the we had dinner at some pizza place, and at the end, uh I said, you know, you know, me, whenever you need to call, call. She's I know, I knew you thought that things uh turned a corner with this relationship, and I was like, I'm no longer like deeply infatuated in love. And I went, Yep, that's why you called. She goes, I knew you'd think that, and you're right.
SPEAKER_01:Uh this is how she gets free therapy.
SPEAKER_02:How does that it's uh I I don't care anymore. Just like she just calls me and I go, and it was funny because she didn't she asked about the Alaska trip a little bit, but mainly it was about her guy she's in love with finally they have to be apart because she has a kid, so for five days they don't see each other, and so and he's not with her, he thinks about things, and so finally he said to her, you know, I have an incredible support group in my life. Uh these uh my mother and these a lot of these women, they just they're so encouraging to me. And I've noticed that you you just don't aren't as encouraging to them to me. It was like for her, it was like bing bing bing bing. I said, Well, yeah, you're dating a woman. What are you talking about here? So, and I said, It's gonna push you to the masculine side. You already have a strong masculine side. She goes, I know, but I think I could, I think I could marry him. I go, Okay, that's that's fine. Although she did pull back and she goes, I was gonna I was ready to introduce him to her son because she has to wait six months, and she goes, All of a sudden, I went, Mm, nope, I gotta sort this out and see if he just wants to be a woman or not. And I well, you know, lesbianism seems to be the way of the day, so let's go.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, uh why does she have to wait six months? What's that about?
SPEAKER_02:Part of the divorce agreement can't introduce new people to your kid, even though her ex did, so which your uh eight-year-old son reminds her of. Dad did, why don't you? Anyway. So interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I've never I've never heard of that as being part of a divorce agreement. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they both agreed on it, but then he didn't follow it. So she said, I'm gonna follow it because I that's what I do. Anyway, it was just funny. We had a nice visit, it was fine, but it's just interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's it's nice that uh it evolved into a nice friendship.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, on uh you know, for her. I'm I'm very okay with that. It's like, yeah, that's fine. I ain't uh I ain't sitting around waiting on anybody anymore except D.
SPEAKER_01:Did uh did she ever try and get you to reconnect with the friend that's uh 10 years her senior or something? No.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, she's 30 years her senior. Oh 30 years, wow. Yeah, she's she's 60 something. Nope, she kind of got the message real clear. I mean, when you say kind of overwhelmed, and she's a big woman. I don't mean that in a bad way. What kind of maybe I do? I mean, not a heavy fat, but just big woman, you know what I'm saying? Big presence? Yeah, I would feel like uh, you know, she'd grab my hand, we'd walk across the mall, and I'd be a little boy. That's the feeling I got when I was just talking to her for two minutes. It's like, okay, uh yeah, I ain't into this domination stuff, so calm down.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I can't I don't really I don't think we should be recording this part of it. Well, it was up to you. You're the one that clicked the buttons, so that's true. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02:I've had I've had a really interesting reaction to this whole Charlie Kirk thing. Oh, tell me about it. No, I I I had a really because I've I've followed him on some interviews and he shows up on TikTok all the time with these debates that he does with college students. And he has you know, he's a little bit a little bit odd. I think he's a little autistic, but man, at 18 he started doing this. It's I mean, it's amazing what he's created by 31. I didn't even know I had I didn't know I had a penis until I was 32. So that that it always impresses you when have a guy has a direction and they just go for it. Plus, he's a traditional follower of Christ the way I think both me and you were raised. I mean, he says right down the line, he would he just is unashamedly a follower of Christ in the tradition that the that we're that I was raised in. So it was like I had such an interesting reaction to it. And some of my clients they they were like, Yeah, good. I'm thinking, no, no, we well no, that's just bad. So uh I watched a little bit of it and uh I listened to Glenn Becker, they were good friends. And so I got to thinking it must be that I mean he was killed for having opinions.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we assume yeah, yeah, they caught the guy today, I guess. His father turned him in. Really? Yeah. The uh father worked with their minister who finally convinced him to to turn himself in. So it was a mor it was uh I think that's a Mormon family. But so anyway, it'll be interesting to see what comes out as far as what motivated him to do it. But anyway, uh I mean if you just listen to the one side talk about Kirk, they would they they framed him as a uh as a radical narc uh Nazi because he took stands. But as I listened to him, that's how I was raised. It was like he had the beliefs, I had the beliefs. I don't have a lot of those now, but I I had them. And so when he got shot, it's like, okay, if it was about his opinions, that's pretty wild. He killed a part of of that of the normalcy in some ways that used to be pretty normal in our cult in our country. And so I think that's where the reaction was like, okay, this is really wild. And then there, and then there's a whole slew of celebrations of because college kids either loved him or hated him. And so there's the on social media, there's this parade of people that just were so excited that this was amazing, that they were able to kill him, because he was a Nazi and he was he was intolerant and all this stuff that he it wasn't true at all from my perspective. So I just feel like I had a really interesting response of okay, we're at a different place. If I have an opinion, and he spoke out pretty strongly against like women in sport, uh men in women's sports, but that wasn't his main theme. His main theme was he will debate anybody. Did you uh you haven't seen many of his clips?
SPEAKER_01:No, I haven't seen any.
SPEAKER_02:He went to Oxford and Cambridge and he debated those guys. If you watch it, it's amazing how he he went to one year of college and dropped out, and yet he's read everything. He knows he he knew the uh Federalist papers, he knows all this stuff by heart, he knows scripture like you're a savant. I mean, it's amazing to listen to the stuff he just quotes. So with kids, that's impressive because he would take on college professors on these college campuses, he would talk to anybody and he'd have them step up to the front of the mic. If you disagree with me, I want you up first. And he'd have trans people, he would have gay, anybody he would talk to. It was fascinating to watch that kind of interaction, and he did it before anybody knew who he was. He was doing it, you know, when he was 20 years old. Anyway, it's just uh it's interesting from the perspective of he just had this what used to be Middle America voice, and if he got shot for his opinions, that's pretty wild. Like a friend of mine got shot for his opinions. I'm not saying who, I'm just saying. I mean, that's the weird part. They they might as well have shot you.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thanks. No, no, I mean that's appreciate your support, Joe.
SPEAKER_02:But like they say about Charlie Kirk, because a lot of uh his followers are are evangelical Christians, uh, he's in a better place. And you're in a better place. So there you go. Now his his wife was uh former Miss Miss Arizona, who's built a really uh quite a massive social media presence too, and a and a clothing company. But yeah, just two year old they got a three-year-old and a one-year-old. Anyway, it's just been an interesting week from that perspective. And I went out to Emily and I said, Did you hear just Charlie Kirk got shot? And she goes, Who Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I go, Isn't it interesting the um the things you think everybody knows? Like your stuff, like stuff that you think you that have influenced you that, oh yeah, this is and then somebody goes, Wait, I don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, kind of like uh, you know, uh uh a TV show you mentioned to Emily, she goes, What? Oh I'm not I don't know what that means. Okay, good. Because I'm sure there are things you say I don't know what you mean. But actually Jonah did know him. Jonah did Jonah Jonah had strong feelings about him, but it was just interesting. Uh I just I could relate to the to the I he just he just had what I would say normal views.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, I do think I I I'm intrigued by your um perspective that he he embodied the things that we grew up with, he embodied those things and and even though you move away from them, there's a reverence that you still have for how they formed you.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely true. I think that's what I was struck with. I I don't believe a lot of it experientially, but on the other hand, there's a reverence, and I think we've lost the reverence of a it's like people who deconstruct their faith and throw it all out rather than realizing, wait a minute, you're just examining finally why you believe what you believe. You don't need to throw it all out. So I think that was a great way of putting it because it it there was a reverence to the belief system that I valued on some level because I embraced it. And to think that somebody that was boldly, I mean, he was boldly, he at Oxford, they would ask him direct questions. He said, No, Jesus Christ died for my sins. I believe we're all sinners, but just that whole thing, and he wouldn't back down. And it it was amazing to watch the people react, and they came at him. The other thing that his trait was he never personalized anything, and he loved everybody, he would talk to anybody. So it's just it's just weird how he was cut down at 31.
SPEAKER_01:What do you where do you think that trait comes from where you don't personalize anything?
SPEAKER_02:I have no freaking idea. But from the they all these guys that knew him talked about they met him when he was like 16, 17 years old, and he would go up to him and say, Yeah, I'm gonna start this business, I'm gonna start this thing, I'm gonna go to college campuses, I'm gonna start talking to all these kids because we got a whole generation to save. And he was like 17. I mean, all these guys, like all these conservative influencers, uh Ben Shapiro, all those guys, they met him then. They all knew him back then, and they all said he had an energy about him that they just knew he was different. And he's an odd-looking guy, kind of, I think, but uh but from that, but he just this energy, I guess everybody carries an energy about him, but you're right, where does that come from? He knew from an early age exactly where where who he was and what he wanted to accomplish. And they asked him a question just a couple months ago in a podcast what does he want to be remembered by? And he goes, most important thing is that I followed my faith and I did what Jesus told me to do. That's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Wow. How amazing that somebody asked that question so soon before this took place.
SPEAKER_02:And uh again, just that that that clarity. Now, the other side of me says, well, you didn't live long enough to find out if it really was gonna work long term.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. So let me, I'm gonna shift gears here. Um just this is a great transition. No, no, no, no, no. I just I this is a good shift to I don't know if I may use some of the stuff we talked about a few minutes ago, but let me kind of shift your thinking. Because I think this is a perfect bridge for it. Um welcome to the Therapy Coaching and Dreams podcast. My name is D. Kelly. I'm your co-host here with Jim Shale, and we're jumping into a conversation that we've been having about some of the most recent events that have taken place and uh want to dig deeper into where we've been with our understanding of personality and relationships and growth and looking inward. Um, and so, Jim, I I I want to jump into a topic that um raises some issues. What midlife does for us that hasn't happened prior to that time that enables us to look deeper? Um, we just talked about um a significant figure in our culture who just lost his life at age 31 and had a great influence. Um we're talking today about midlife that he'd not yet reached. What is it about midlife that begins to cause us to look at the world differently?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, sure. That's well, usually our eyes get worse.
SPEAKER_01:So we have to look inward because we can't look outward at a real practical level.
SPEAKER_02:Uh we we have those old age eyes where you start having readers, and yeah. Uh no, I think if you if you have children, children come along and they have perhaps different views. They challenge the way in which you thought life was going to be lived. Uh, they have different plans, and I think that begins to challenge your own approach. Because again, my belief is a lot of times we live out of the unconscious parts of ourselves for the first half of our lives, the way we're raised, what impacts us, the people that influence us, we attach to them and their journeys to some degree. Some people I think are unique in the sense that they have a sense of direction early on, whether it's a medical doctor or or whatever drives you. Uh, some people seem to have a fortunate, I I wasn't blessed with that at an early age, other than I felt a spiritual, uh, spiritual call at some point, but uh that shifted over the years. So to ask you your question, I think those factors play into re-evaluation. So you get to midlife, and there's a lot of factors, if you're conscious at all, uh your spouse may begin to believe differently than you believe, or begin to express views that will challenge the status quo. And I think that's why they say about every seven years you go through a transition of being different to some degree because you're the outside forces, or even the way you see the world, because of your own inner conflict about things not turning out like you thought they were going to, that also challenges the the shift a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:There's something you said reminded me of an old uh statement that I've never forgotten. And it relates to the notion that um people in relationship, they don't typically grieve at the same pace in the same way. And so that often causes relational conflict, which is also why I'm surmising that surviving the death of a child is one of the most difficult things for a marriage to survive. And it's in part because how intense that difference in grieving is. But if we take it away from grief and tie it into the emotional weight of going through middle age and rethinking things, that people in relationship don't do it at the same pace, they don't do it in the same way. And so one in a relationship begins to re-evaluate, in some ways, they become a very different person than you had married.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's it's like the one of the most uh uh common ones is um again, you live out of the unconscious, from my perspective, the first part, and then all of a sudden you start identifying your unhappy. Let's say in a marriage where the wife or the husband, usually it's usually I would say it's the feminine energy that identifies that sooner than the masculine energy does. And so they will say something like, I'm just really unhappy. Well, the the masculine typically it's the man, and the relationship will be completely blindsided by that because their life is still is pretty, pretty okay. So that starts to spur start start stir everything up in that sense. Because now this one person that you thought it's I've heard it so many times that I heard it this week. Uh they came in and he's he said basically, I thought we were fine. And the wife, the wife said, I've been unhappy for a long time. And he said, Why didn't you speak up? And she all they always say, I've been speaking up for years. And then I'll have to I'll have to challenge that aspect of it and say that uh the way the feminine or the way typically the woman speaks up is so um uh abstract in some ways. Just kind of like my example is a a a wife will say, Is that your underwear in the middle of the floor? And a man will go, Yeah. Well the well, she just asked you to pick it up. But the man didn't hear it. And so that's what's fascinating about communication styles. The feminine is relationally driven, so they don't want to be offensive, so they'll they'll hint at things, but the man will the masculine won't pick up on it some sometimes. And so all of a sudden, all of a sudden he gets hit in the face because the masculine in the woman stands up and says, I'm unhappy, I don't want to do this anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And the man's or the masculine voice is saying, Well, it's obviously not your underwear, so whose underwear do you think it is?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, perhaps that was a way too graphic of an example, but I'm just saying if it's your underwear, we got other conversations to have.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Uh I I no wonder I misunderstood your hints at things.
SPEAKER_02:Um George, the neighbors, that's his. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, well, I I there's um a question that I don't know if it was you or your brother um asked of a client once, but it was the question, um, would you ride in the car? How long would you ride in the car if you were the passenger? And the response of the client, which I loved, was after she paused for a few moments, she said, Oh, I'd kick myself out a long time ago. And that was a nice comment about self-awareness of um, I've been blind to many of the things that I do that affect relationships and trying to see myself in a new way sometimes open your eye, opens your eyes up and you go, Oh, yeah, I can see why I'd be frustrating to others. I remember, I think I've told you this. My dad one time, uh, the family was together and we were having a deeper conversation than at least our family typically had. And my dad made one of his most self-aware statements I ever heard him say. He said, I know that I am much more of a problem to others than I am to myself. And I just like I wanted to applaud that you at least knew that.
SPEAKER_02:And the rest of that phrase was, and I'm kind of okay with that.
SPEAKER_01:Well-huh, yep. So you're gonna have to let me know when it really is a problem. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I mean, i again, it's like, uh, how do we get the midlife question? When do we begin to reevaluate? So midlife in literally chronologically is important, but there's also a midsection of a relationship. Like I have a couple they've they've been married, they're older, and they're they've only been married 16 years, though. So what's come out is this an awareness that they just bicker all the time. They travel, they're retired, they travel together, and they just bicker back and forth. They argue, bicker. So they wanna they think they want to stop that. I pointed out that you're staying pretty connected that way. I said, Yeah, it's it's wearing you both out, perhaps, but you both are staying connected. So they talked a little bit back and forth, and then they would interrupt each other, and I'd say, You you do know you're interrupting each other. Yeah, we do it all the time. Yeah, we do it all the time. I said, Okay. So uh, and she goes, So I I like the example the other day. So he throws the ball out in the middle of the street to have our dog chase it. I said, Why would you throw it in the middle of the street? He goes, and he and she and he goes, See, she's always, I'm always doing something wrong. And I go, Okay. Oh, he said, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. He meant he minimized her emotions. And so I said, So it feels like he minimized your emotions. And she said, Absolutely, does it all the time? And so I said, So when she said, Don't throw it in the middle of the street, what'd you feel? She's always correcting me, always correcting me. And I go, Yep, you're doing the same thing to each other. So you feel minimized because she's correcting you, you feel minimized because he's not acknowledging your emotions, because you're actually trying to warn him about the dog running into the street and may perhaps get hit by a car, which is very valid, but it's not coming across that way at all. You're now being you're correcting him as doing something wrong. So they both kind of like he's he's a little bit slower processor, so she wasn't getting what she got it so quickly that she started she interrupted me. I said, now see, you're correcting me. My point being is that it's the midsection of their of their marriage in some ways. They've been oh, they've been together long enough to typically do this. If you would just change that trait, we'd be fine. And they project it. So I got them to see, no, wait a minute, it's it's up to you to realize that whether you like whether you agree or not, you're correcting him. Whether you agree or not, you're minimizing her emotions. And so that's that's the journey. Can they get it at their age? I don't know. But they it at least intellectually they got it. Well, that's what you have to do before you start to make the changes. And I I gave them the assignment, try to catch yourself. They're getting ready to do a road trip to Arizona. Try to catch yourself when you're tempted to tell them how to drive, or try to correct yourself when she's she's basically uh warning you about where to turn or whatever. See if you can process and have that conversation rather than just to bicker. If I had to guess, they uh they on some level like to bicker. But they would say they didn't, they would say they didn't because it neither one of them are feeling heard at this point. So yeah. Anyway, that's that's another way of looking at the evaluation or the midlife or mid midterm of a relationship, kind of.
SPEAKER_01:I like the phrase midterm. Um, I think some people think when you're referencing the significance of midlife, that it's a particular age, right? And it's not, it's it can be the midlife of a relationship or the midlife of your journey doing this vocation, or the midlife. You know, I so many people I have worked with, they are so excited about a particular job and then get about four years into the job and they're bored, or they they don't know what to do, they don't know how to break out of whatever it was, and it's such a shift from this incredible enthusiasm. And part of that is just the midlife of the job. Are you going to evaluate what it is you need out of vocation? And is it possible that this fits for different reasons than it fit four years ago?
SPEAKER_02:Yep, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's that's where acknowledging significantly how much we change uh over our lifetime. Because we because we have some standards or some thoughts that seem to be pervasive in a life a lifetime, we then minimize or can't see the subtle change that we really have made just as we approach life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And and we often project impose on the other person that they have changed and that we have it. Absolutely true. And the the what we miss there is an incredible opportunity for growth. We've talked about this numerous times, but part of the midlife of relationship is that those things that attracted me and were exciting and invigorating become irritating and frustrating. And I think it's that the other person has dramatically shifted in how they've done things. When in fact, I've become dissatisfied that that is always externalized, or I have finally seen kind of the underbelly of those traits that were so mysterious. And it exposes in me, and it's at that moment that you have an opportunity to shift where you're looking and go inward and say, what am I missing in my journey that would benefit from actually understanding this dynamic more instead of being frustrated by this dynamic more?
SPEAKER_02:It's like going back to that other example, is like asking the typically it's the it's the feminine. Oh, why do you because it comes across as though it's corrective, why would you want to correct people? Well, if they are if they're thoughtful at all.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question. I just want to pause there. That is a great question. What what is the need behind wanting to correct?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and they would say, my guess is uh they're not trying to correct, they're trying to warn. Or they're trying to make you better, or they're trying to point out the the correct facts of a story, which is classic. You know, this when your your spouse is telling a story, that they add stuff to make it funny. And the your spouse or your partner knows is that's all that you made that up. So so they're they're tempted to jump in. You that didn't happen. Shut up. I'm telling the story here. Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and and often then the desire to correct or um to rein in your partner is wrestling with your own anxieties and trying to figure out what those anxieties are.
SPEAKER_02:You're either embarrassed by the story, you're embarrassed by them because they're an extent. I had a client this week say, you know, he's an extension of me. I go, no, that's not, I know it's not true, but it feels like he is. I go, well, yeah, everybody wants to be proud of their partners. That's very true. But it's they're not an extension. You can let them be them. It's not a reflection of you. Well, it sure feels like it. I go, yeah, it does feel like it.
SPEAKER_01:That's very true. Um it is an interesting internal shift, though, when somebody stops viewing them as an extension and doesn't feel like they have to own every misstep or something that they think was done wrong. There's like a freedom that starts to happen.
SPEAKER_02:There is, but there's also another side of that which is really interesting. When you realize that and then you quit doing it, you'll subtly feel disconnected. Because you connect through dysfunctional cycles, for example, like trying to correct or minimizing feelings. That's an unconscious connection on some level. So when you pull back and you realize, okay, I'm just gonna let them do that, then it's it can be subtle, but you can start feeling like, you know, I don't care as much. So you have to be very aware that you're you're okay with that and not let it affect the intimacy level or how you how you see each other. Great point.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I don't know if you remember making this statement, but uh whether you remember it or not, help me to dig in a little bit more. Um, that referencing some people who are more married to not having conflict than they are to their spouse.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's I use that a lot uh in my in my counseling or therapy. Give us more of a context to this. Well, it would be like if I'm an avoider and you want to have a conversation about something I don't want to talk about, I'm gonna avoid it. And so that's why I say I'm married to the trait that protects me from anxiety or having difficult conversation or just feeling anxious generally. I don't want to feel that, so I'm just gonna walk away. And then the other person will almost always feel abandoned because that trait that protects me is more important than rising above it, which is easy to say it dynamically, it's really hard to do, than to stay present and say, okay, let's have this conversation. Because again, another way of saying that we talked about, I think, in previous sessions, it's competing anxieties. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If we if we talk about it, my anxiety goes up. If we don't, yours goes up. And so then you get the classic thing where you're being chased around the house by someone who wants to talk about it. The other person's trying to avoid talking about it. And again, it resonates. It's so it's so interesting to see couples when I frame it that way. It's immediate recognition. It's it's immediate recognition. It's like, oh yeah, that's true. It's competing anxieties. It's not it's not a bad marriage, it's not a it's not a throw in the towel kind of thing. It's what you don't understand about how you trigger each other's anxieties and about how your bias is the trait that protects you from being hurt. Yeah. And that's what in my mind, that's what intimacy is. I I always say intimacy is not you know, fine fuzzy feelings and great conversations about things. That's what it feels like in the beginning of a relationship. But it's having, as you know, it's having really difficult conversations and being raw as far as just the emotions that you bring out on each other.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. One of the tools I try and give to those who are willing to try new tools, uh, the willingness is a big thing. Um, but is uh when that particular type of competing anxiety takes place where one is wanting to talk, one isn't, is for the person who's kind of pushing away to try and use the phrase, I know you want to talk, I do too, I don't have the capacity to do it right now. Can we commit to tomorrow at two o'clock or when we have breakfast together? Um, and I'll be fully present. Uh, particularly for those couples where one likes, right as they're going to sleep at night, to bring up a subject, it's really difficult, and the other one is just about to doze off. And at that moment, it's really tough for the person to engage and to say, I commit to conversation.
SPEAKER_02:But yet, again, that's why it's the anxiety because the person laying next to you could be just ruminating the rest of the night because they wanted to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And so even if you say, Maybe tomorrow morning at nine o'clock could we do this? Well, until you prove that you're actually going to do that at nine o'clock the next morning, that that person's gonna lay there going, We ain't talking about this at nine o'clock because you're gonna have put, you're just putting it off. But yeah, that's why that's why it's look at the unfairness of it. It's like, okay, do I get to wake you up and then and then talk about something you don't want to talk about, or do I lay in bed and ruminate about all this stuff? Well, hey, easy answer. That's your stuff. If you're gonna ruminate, and then although it's your stuff too, you're gonna go to you can go to sleep when we're having this kind of a problem, you can just sleep. How dare you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe the the assignment could be why don't you stay awake and make poster boards of the issues for a presentation tomorrow, and I'm gonna show up for it.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, in that moment, I suppose. See, the problem is the person you're trying to wake up will wake up and then they may not get back to sleep. So that's why they're trying to no no no no no, no, no. I don't need I don't need to not sleep. I need to sleep. Yeah, yeah. It is interesting to try, but you're right. That's one of the ways you try to address it. After it's proven that the next day you will follow through and have a conversation, then that person can actually go to sleep easier because they know. Whereas in the past, usually they promise to talk about it and they never bring it up.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but if it's if it's a delay tactic, uh it's gonna come back to bite you. Um, if it's an honest response, it has the potential to be kind of a new way of doing things in the relationship. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:And you know, it's classic stonewalling. And if you're in that dysfunctional cycle, uh you know that to prove that you're not gonna stonewall is a big deal. And that's how couples begin to couples begin to build some real uh integrity back when they follow through with those things.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um this uh shift that takes place as people are trying to grow, become more self-aware. Um the phrase addicted to an old relationship that sometimes keeps people stuck. Like I I don't realize how as much as it bothers me the way we are, the way we are is so familiar, and I know the outcomes of the way we are, that stepping into the unknown uh brings up all kinds of defenses that keep me from going there because I continually retreat to the familiar and I'm kind of addicted to the way things are. Well, that's the framework we've talked about.
SPEAKER_02:That's the static.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And that's why I will say a lot, a lot of these challenges are personality driven. Faith is personality driven, how we handle our faith is built. I mean, all that stuff has that personality context to it. So if I'm if I'm static by nature and I'm married to a dynamic individual, they're gonna want to always keep moving. And the other static person is like, they're comfortable with the way things are. Why would we stir things up? You know, why would he well because we want to be better? I'm fine, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't need to be better. You you need to be better, but I I don't need to be better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Again, the other way of looking at it, it's that it's that old dynamic. It's like trying to resolve the control issue. Every relationship has a control dynamic to it. It's not a bad, it's not a it's not a good or a bad, it's just part of the being human. And so, how do we how do we navigate that? So, if there's a static and dynamic people together, the dynamic wants to keep moving forward, always do things, static wants to just kind of nest and make everything okay, and we're all good, and let's all just be be okay. Calm down, everybody. And so, and so that it can come across as you're trying to control each other.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's one last loose end I'd love to talk about before we bring this to a close, and it's tied into the midlife journey. Um, and often part of that midlife journey is this increased awareness of um past hurts, uh wounds that have never quite healed, that get they often get translated into relational dynamics. And so part of the midlife journey is back to uh one of the first two episodes, kind of looking back in order to move forward. And I think midlife often midlife of a journey often brings up some of those historical pieces. Yeah, yeah, right. Um, so I I was intrigued by um a line that I read uh in one of your writings that was um sometimes we believe that those who have wronged us are going to get away with it if we let go of our anger. Yeah. Um and and that keeps us stuck in a particular place. Now, the flip side of that is if we've had a tough time ever acknowledging our anger, right, then that's another issue on the other end of the spectrum. And both of those things need to take place. The acknowledgement of the anger, but then letting go of that need to um hold on to something feeling like somebody got away with it. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's a big deal as far as uh whatever people think about forgiveness. That's why people resist forgiving. Because then they'll say, well, then they got away with it. It's always it's always interesting. Okay, so then go slap them, do something, I guess, to make you feel better that they didn't get away with it. Yeah. There's not so you have to point out there's what what would what would have to happen for them for you not to feel like they got away with it. Well, they'd have to be punished, they'd have some some consequence, they'd have to, you know, their new relationship. If if they had an affair and left the marriage, that that relationship needs to fall apart. He know whatever that is. It's kind of the classic thing is my wife had an affair, so I'm gonna go have an affair. I'll get even. Uh okay, that's that doesn't work, but I guess you'll have a good time while you're doing it, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, that's that's a a really important thing. It's because it's like, well, then I can't let go of it, and it keeps you absolutely stuck in their toxicity, which is such a big deal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and what keeps that toxicity oozing more and more is when you look at that other person's life and it feels like it's going well, or they're not paying a price, or um and and you ruminate and ruminate and ruminate over the successes of their journey and leaves you holding all of the toxic material.
SPEAKER_02:And if it's if it's a if it's a relational dynamic or a marriage dynamic, you're still married to them emotionally. Great point. Yeah, and that's what's so interesting about it, because you want some kind of as long as you you obsess about someone that used to be in your life, it's about you, not about that person, almost always.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:What what a great uh conversation, hopefully hopeful to some others.
SPEAKER_02:Pardon me? Good good stuff, good questions. Yeah, hopefully our audience is uh our audience of six is really doing well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Larry and his five friends that that huddle around uh all together and listen to this podcast at the same time.
SPEAKER_02:We can't wait for these to drop. Uh as they say.
SPEAKER_01:So anyway, good talk. Thanks, Jim. Great to be with you today, and uh all of you that have joined us, uh look forward to the next conversation.