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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E14 Projection 101: Seeing Ourselves In Others
Ever catch yourself asking, “Is anybody thirsty?” when you really mean, “I am thirsty”? That’s projection. Projection is the way we see our denied traits, desires, needs, and fears in other people. In this episode we dig into projection with clear language, real stories, and actionable tools you can use the next time a small ask turns into a big fight.
We break down how projection can make our attraction to another person feel like destiny. And later, projection can fuel the disappointment phase, when the qualities that once drew us together start to grate on us. From the orange juice argument that nearly ended a marriage to the “need meter” who anticipates everyone’s needs but can’t voice their own, we show how to pull projections back, make direct requests without guilt, and build the capacity to get your needs met without tests or resentment. Along the way, we explore masculine and feminine energies, why both defense and receptivity matter, and how the kernel-of-truth test turns criticism into growth without taking it personally.
We explore the mediating factors of our family of origin; roles we were handed, dreams parents lived through us, wealth and scarcity scripts, and faith identities we inherited rather than owned. We also consider the shadow side: how we project what we won’t face onto “the other.” One of the desired outcomes is to promote relationships that grow up instead of blow up.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review so more curious people can find conversations like this. What projection are you ready to reclaim today?
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
Welcome everyone. We're here jumping into a topic that we've referenced numerous times, but we've really not given a good definition. We don't want to make the assumption that everybody is familiar with the idea of projection. And when we talk about the ways in which our personality styles play themselves out with others in relationship, we have to be aware of projections that take place that are sometimes directed toward us by others and become self-aware enough that we can see when we are projecting some of the stuff that's in us onto those with whom we're in relationship. So, Jim, we're going to jump into that topic. And I'd love if you could help us a little bit with kind of a working definition that you use with clients when you're talking about projection. How do you, for somebody who's not familiar with the idea at all, how do you begin to introduce it to them?
SPEAKER_00:Well, let me let me first start by stating it's probably I state it probably too strong because m my sense is that most of life is projection. So so I realize that's a little bit overstated, maybe, you know? So but I I I introduce it basically by saying that the denied aspect of myself I'll typically find in someone else. And so that's projection. So if there's a trait that I have that I don't want to see or I don't want to acknowledge, I'll almost always find it and then I'll attack that person, and that's where I'll say, well, you're probably projecting some things about yourself onto that person. That's usually how I introduce it. Especially like in couples and in couples counseling. It's pretty easy to identify when they're accusing their their uh mate or their partner of being, so let's say controlling, and yet they're really controlling themselves.
SPEAKER_01:So Yeah, I I actually think you shouldn't back off too quickly from the notion that all of life is projection. Uh because it comes out in so many ways, just like the shadow comes out in so many ways that we are not aware of. Projection does come out all the time, and it comes out in often ways that are not nefarious or problematic. But sometimes uh a person will pose a question to another individual. So somebody might say, Do you want to watch a documentary tonight? And the question really is, are you trying to say that you'd like to watch a documentary tonight? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. The joke is when we were doing this trip to Alaska, it got to the point if someone were to ask, so is anybody thirsty? It's typically you're saying, Are you thirsty? Do you want to stop? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And for those who don't know, you took a trip to Alaska with your brothers, uh, a driving trip, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:So how many how many miles was it total? We did 8,700 miles in 16 days. Yeah. Dro driving time is about 120 hours, I think, something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell So four brothers in a truck for that many hours.
SPEAKER_00:Uh the oldest being 80 and the youngest being 72 at the time. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. That should have been a podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it it would have been a it would have been an interesting one. No, I think.
SPEAKER_01:That was a great example. Is anybody thirsty? Is a question that is really a projection because it's not about anybody else. You just don't want to be alone in the being the one to say, could we stop? Because we just stopped an hour and a half ago.
SPEAKER_00:No, I would say that the responder or the the enablers in that that frame, they would genuinely say it and mean, does anybody need need to do it? But typically it's a projection of I want to stop. Like they're need meters. So they would anticipate. Now, they might, on a deeper level, be denying the the aspect that they really wanted to stop as well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because the need meter needer always places their needs last, but they also can frame it taking care of somebody else because that's how they take care of themselves.
SPEAKER_01:So you just use the word a couple of times, need meter, which have not heard you use. But it but is that a responder typically?
SPEAKER_00:I'm sorry, yes. We didn't talk about that when we talked about a responder.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think so. I think you we talked about meeting other people's needs. I just never heard the phrase need meter. Oh, okay. No, that's what I refer to as a need meter.
unknown:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:They anticipate every need. Now, I think that's a projection, but to get a need meter to identify that as being a projection is really difficult. Because it challenges their whole sense of self.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell Yeah, I I agree because in many ways that's the projection of wanting to be needed, wanting to be important in this system, and wanting to be recognized as somebody who takes care of others. And so even in that expression of anybody here needing something to drink, is this the time we ought to be thinking about stopping? And again, that's not nefarious. There's nothing wrong with it, but it does reveal part of what is the internal mechanism of an individual's personality style.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, uh again, I have a great friend, you know her. And you know, it it I'm sure this is an exaggeration, as I sometimes do. But like, you know, every half hour, hour, she'll ask, you want something to drink? You want something to eat? Yeah, it's it's it's just interesting. They anticipate all that. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Is so it is it becomes difficult when you're on the receiving end of projection. It truly would be for an individual that you just described, um, she's not projecting that she's hungry or thirsty, but to realize that there is something else that's getting projected and what it means to be a good friend in responding to that, particularly if it comes to a point with not necessarily her, but anybody, where it becomes incredibly irritating. Yes, absolutely. That they seem very unaware of what they're doing or what's happening. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:And if you had to interpret it, you it would you'd be interpreting it as they're so identified with meeting needs that that's how they find a significance for themselves. So when they they want to meet your need all the time, because that's that's so personal to them. Yeah. But you're right, it it can absolutely and then you don't want to get too harsh because then they you can hurt their feelings because they're just trying to help. So yes, that dance is that dance of intimacy in some ways is so interesting because the very thing they're trying to do is help, and yet a lot of men or the masculine would simply go, oh my word, no, if I'm hungry, I'll come and get something to eat.
SPEAKER_01:So when we begin to understand what projection is, that inward unconscious within that gets thrown out on somebody else in so many different ways. Why is it important for us to understand that it's happening? There's some really key things in a relationship that if you're not aware of projection, you you can go down some pathways that are very unproductive.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, on on this uh surface on the deeper level, really understanding the way you project is the really massive doorway to self-awareness. I mean, the the more you realize, wait a minute, what am I what what do I really want here? When you are aware of that projection piece, you just pull the projection back. I mean, that's what I think we may have talked about at one point, but in the dating relationship, you're going to be something for me that I need. Well, that what I call the disappointment phase where that all that that falls apart, and I realize I projected onto them something that they I want them to do for me, that I end up ultimately 10 or 15 years into a relationship, I really have to do for myself because it always falls apart. And that's the that's the threatening part of a relationship, whether it's you know, between five and fifteen years, where typically I realize they're not who I thought they were going to be. And again, the pullback of the projection is I'm not who I thought I was either.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. So important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely true. And that and that's it's it sounds like a negative term, and couples kind of react to it when I use it, but it it it's the disappointment phase, not only in myself, but in the other person. It's not a negative. It's like, okay, let's regroup here and figure out what we need to do now that we really know who we're married to and who we really are, at least at that point in life. I think that's the value of understanding what projection is. Because if we don't do that, then we just keep fighting crazy battles. We don't even know why we're fighting them, because they were supposed to do something for me, I was supposed to do something for them that was never realistic, but in the dating phase felt so nice because it was being met.
SPEAKER_01:I remember working with a couple that was they had actually moved to the conversation about divorce. And as I tried to go back and get to the point where all of this started, this debate, the frustration and anger, both of them honestly came to a spot where it was he asked her to get a glass of orange juice for him, and she said no. And that was what resulted in this this movement toward a divorce, and the the issue wasn't the orange juice, it was everything else that that symbolized, of course. But when they were looking at when the degeneration began, it was over a glass of orange juice. And it it's because there was this lack of self-awareness of self, of other, and they did some amazing work to become far more self-aware in their journey. Really incredible work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because the anal the analogy is is so interesting in the sense that there was an expectation that it was her job to get me orange juice, my guess is. And so you have to break apart all those expectations. That's why, you know, even doing counseling with couples before they get married or where they're wherever they're permanent, you have to, as best you can, disclose what their unconscious projections are or their expectations are. Like, for example, the traditional one is, well, she's supposed to do the laundry and clean, right? Or cook or whatever that is. I mean, that's way back. And it's like they don't do it or they don't get the orange juice, and all of a sudden it's like, seriously? You won't give me the orange juice? Well, no, because there's an expectation you'll do it. If you're okay, this this is the dance of intimacy. If she doesn't, if she says no, he goes, okay, and he gets up and gets his orange juice and he's fine with it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. That's growing up for my personal, yep. Yep. Um And if you and if you do that, you genuinely get up, and I call it a heart change. If I genuinely get up and get my own orange juice, my partner will see that, and oftentimes they will get it the next time. Because there's no negative toxicity that that's a demand that I have to do.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Again, the power of the choice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Power of the choice. Um, you you talk about the importance of understanding projection, and so far most of what we've said has been this self-awareness of when I'm doing that. Like the greater I become more aware of the workings inside of me, my defense mechanisms, the unresolved issues, the way I have depended on somebody else to fulfill something that I needed to fill my fulfill myself in my own way by understanding who I am. I don't know that it's always sequential that what follows is greater awareness of the other. Maybe it happens simultaneously, but I think one of the very important reasons to understand projection is to stop taking so personally things that others project onto you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, uh if there's anything that makes such a difference in life, just in general, uh just quit taking person take thing taking things personally.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's it's a it's a great trait. It's a Buddhist principle. I mean, it's it's it's this thing that, yeah, even if it is, okay, we can do something about it or not. It's like if you're all you're gonna do is get defensive about it and try to defend yourself and all that cra okay, well that where's that gonna get you? So to realize that any criticism, okay, so the value of taking it personally would be to get to a place where you don't take it personally, but you might get the value of it. There may be some truth in it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the I don't know when I started doing this, but I've done it for years when there's been some pretty harsh critique about something I've done or said. And inwardly is this voice that says, Is there a kernel and of truth in there that you need to learn? If so, take it and then let go of everything else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, again, let's go back, let's go back to our whole series here. You have a little you have a stronger feminine energy. So that's going to be more natural for you to do it. And so I think for your journey, it's been getting in touch with the masculine side that maybe you need to defend yourself. Does make sense? Sure. Sure. And so I think that's where the strong masculine would have a hard time. That's why they have to get in touch with the feminine side that's relationally driven and want to be motivated to understanding the kernel of truth in it. Whereas the strong masculine would either avoid it, dismiss it, say you're crazy, you're an idiot. I don't agree with that, and move on. And that's why, again, our whole theory, our whole, our whole sense of this series is you're balancing those out, knowing when to enact the feminine and when to legitimately perhaps defend yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I agree with that. I I think what I would contend, though, is that masculine or feminine, dynamic or static, all of those styles can be completely unaware of projections taking place. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's a great point. Yeah, you're right. And so even though the masculine, particularly dynamic masculine, would say you're crazy and dismiss it, they still have been left with a position where they are unaware, both of themselves and others, that projection is taking place and the defense mechanism went out. That's what dismissal is, is a defense mechanism.
SPEAKER_00:Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Absolutely. I was just going to say that. They they have taken it personally by dismissing it.
unknown:Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right. And so I think that there is this wonderful freedom. You mentioned it earlier, that it is a core teaching of some faith traditions to recognize that you don't take things personally. It is a freedom that comes where you kind of just take a deep breath and go, ha, that really wasn't all about me.
SPEAKER_00:That was and that's what we do. One of your questions is about family of origin. We carry projections of parents a lot. Aaron Powell Please expand on that because I think that's so important. So let's say you're raised by parents who haven't been introduced to any kind of psychology of self or self-awareness, and they're just reacting from how they were how they were raised. And so they will project. I mean, the classic thing is sports. Let's say, you know, you have a kid who you didn't you did pretty well in sports, but not great. Well, your kid comes along, he's naturally more gifted. You're going to live through that kid. And it's a classic thing where they say he's living through his son. So he gets waked tied up into it. He's he's coaching the kid, he's on his back all the time. That's a classic case of projection where the kid then feels pressure to carry that. And I've known cases where the kid will be in a sport, they don't want to play that sport at all. They're playing it because dad loves that sport or mom loved that sport. And so a conversation I have in my office is, okay, what's he really interested in? Well, he wants to play the piano or something like that. I go, okay, does he practice? Yeah, he practices all the time. But he's really good in soccer. Well, does he like soccer? Well, yeah, he's really good at it. I go, no, does he like soccer? Does he enjoy it? I don't know. I'd never ask him that. Or whatever, however that conversation goes. That's that's a classic kind of uh sports-related projection where the kid feels pressure to carry that. But on so many emotional levels, parents sad all the time, or a parent struggles with depression, a kid will carry that. They'll carry the projection of that parent, and they'll enable, they'll become codependent. All those tentacles are all about carrying a family member's projection.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think it's sometimes we have a difficult time detangling from family of origin. And I think actually projection is a wonderful doorway to open up for an individual to see how those projections take place, how one particular member of a family is the peacemaker and then carries that into adult life, or one particular individual is the one who is always messing up, or uh mistakes in a particular area, and they carry that into adulthood. And it's it's a tape that's actually not true, but it is a tape that brings about outcomes that seem to reinforce those things because you've never challenged the projection of the family onto you. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that that's another way of looking at it. Some face faith systems, like I think Christianity has a strong sense of generational sin, they call it. Well, from a psychological perspective, it could be generational projection where the parent hasn't dealt with something and they they pass it on down the the system in that sense, another kid will pick up and carry that projection. And a lot of family systems have projections they carry, whether it's of wealth. I mean, there can be all kinds of projections. They seem to always have wealth in it. So the kid carries that projection. It's not always a negative or a positive, it's just a projection. Yeah. And that's like people people raised in a more of a poverty mindset, they'll carry that projection on. They don't deserve to be wealthy or whatever that whatever that is. The way you break that is obviously is to understand, wait a minute, what am I I don't have to be this. I can be different. So it's that differentiation that that's threatening to family systems as well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If you break away and go to a different faith system or whatever that you're raised in, it threatens the system as well.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell Yeah, that's a great point. The faith system itself becomes a projection. Yeah. And until you have to do it. Yeah. And until you break the projection, the faith system never really is your own.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely true.
SPEAKER_01:You have to embrace it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And a lot of people I mean, they say, I mean, I mean, this was an anecdotal percentage, but uh back when I studied more of this, it was like 60% of people raised in a faith system will leave that system to go to someplace else. And in my mind, that's a psychological break of the projection. Oftentimes they may throw away their faith altogether, but oftentimes they'll go back and embrace a different faith system. And then sometimes as they understand their own journey, they'll go back and embrace their original faith system because they now own it.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like growing up, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's uh faith individuation uh is really important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Definitely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01:We have talked quite a bit about projection in dating relationships, but it seems real important to just touch base on that again, as one of the ways that we find attractiveness is projecting our own lack and finding it on someone else or in someone else, and becoming dependent upon that person to supply that part of who we are. So just as a reminder from some of the previous conversations, what are some of the natural attractions that you see often taking place? I certainly can give some personal examples and have in previous episodes. But give us a few. I love guys to come. Do you have any videos of that? You have any videos of that? They came to my house to do the first rehearsal. And uh the piano.
SPEAKER_00:How'd your dad react to that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:My dad wasn't around for the rehearsal. I'm not sure. I I had recruited a great piano player, great musician, who also had perfect pitch. And he told me, he said, right in the middle of the rehearsal, he said, Dee, you you're sharp. And I said, Thank you. But we need to get back to the music. He said, No, no, no, musically you're sharp. I don't I don't know how to fix this. And uh so I got kicked out of my own quartet on the first rehearsal. So anyway, that that was my pursuit of something that was very different than my own natural tendencies, and included with that musical side was kind of the mystical way of looking at the world through music, through art. And it just was not part of who I was, but it was attractive in every way. And it was my projection onto someone else, the part of me that was undeveloped, and leaning into someone else to provide that because I didn't know how to access it. So it wasn't that the projection was a wrong thing. It was just an unconscious thing.
SPEAKER_00:If you if you were able to interview in a d in-depth the people, the people that you're naturally attracted to, you would find a lot of unconscious psychological dynamics about yourself. I mean, the classic one is I mean, it gets it gets a little bit complicated as far as attraction is concerned, because I do believe you're attracted to the parent you have the most issues with emotionally, but that also can be a projection. So if if I if I project the fact that I'm really emotionally unavailable, and I don't want to admit it because I think I am, I'll be attracted to somebody who's emotionally unavailable, and that'll play out. And I'll act like I'm not because they aren't. They because they're not available. So I'll I'll project it onto them when really I'm probably not emotionally available.
SPEAKER_01:Which is Well, that's still projection.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is still projection, but it can get complicated as far as bringing the other element in as to why I'm attracted to who I'm attracted to.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So it's uh it's projection, but it's it's complicated by all the family of origin issues that you've had.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, and that's that's why I, you know, when I point out to people, and it's, you know, it's like common sense, but on some level it's always a surprise when when you realize when you point out to the fact that they married their mother, they married their father. I mean, it's a classic thing, or people smile and go, Oh, yeah, I did. I mean, yeah, you did. And that's a projection. You had nothing to do with love. And that's why I use the analogy. There can be two equally attractive people. I'm more attracted to that one than this one. Why is that? Because there's crap here. I mean, there's stuff here. Excuse the, excuse the word. There's stuff here that I need to work on. But who's gonna who's gonna listen to you when you're 23, 24, 25? They're just in love. 18, 19, 20. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Uh yeah, I'm trying to update it for the current culture. And I should go farther than that, 27, 28, 29.
SPEAKER_01:So Yeah. That's true. So what again, we've touched on this in previous episodes, but now specifically about projection. What is it that creates a bit of a crisis that relationships that have been going on for several years, all of a sudden it's not working like it used to? And the projections that were originally attractive now become irritating and frustrating. Is that typically because we've evolved and we're not the same person that we were five years prior, or is it because we're becoming self-aware, or because it's no longer satisfying for it to be externally dependent and you're longing for something more than that?
SPEAKER_00:Well, you know, the easy answer is all the above. Yeah. Because again, there they're not the the projection falls apart. They're no longer the very thing that the attraction at beginning drives you nuts. Because you think somehow that that trait will go away or whatever it is. So it's all of those, all those things.
SPEAKER_01:I think once you begin to be aware of these projection issues, eventually you come to a point in time where you're confronted with what I think is a crucial step in the evolution of health. And that's a confrontation of the shadow being projected again and again. Not to say that what our discussion so far didn't include the shadow, it certainly was part of the shadow. But that portion that we vilify in others, you touched on it at the very beginning of this episode, but there's a lot of projection that is not vilification. But when we begin to face the shadow side of our life, we have to come to grips with how we impose on our opponents or our enemies or the other or those who are not like us and begin to wrestle with the them in me. We are culturally in a place where we vilify each other politically, and we we do that with racial biases, we do that with faith prejudices, we we do it over and over again where the other is wrong and is the source of all kinds of problems, when in fact this notion of projection uh eventually leads us to a place where I have to admit, oh, they're actually voicing something that is somewhere deep inside of me. Yeah. And and that's that's hard to say, yep, I have that kind of anger in me, or I had that kind of rage in me, or I have that kind of prejudice or bias in me. And I need to bring it to the surface so that it doesn't trap me into being the same person that I'm angry about.
SPEAKER_00:Can't say I can't add anything to that. I mean, that's exactly right. And we're the, you know, I don't know much you want to get into that part of it, but the the the way the the world's playing out right now, that's exactly where we're at. We can't if we can't own it, and what happens, why do wars happen? Well, you you defeat your enemy. And then you get into discussion about is there true evil in the world, is is it good and evil, and all the other stuff. But some would even say that the unexpressed evil in ourselves is projected at collectively, and then somebody will come along and carry the projection and behave in ways that would reinforce my belief system, but it could be perceived by the other side as evil and the other side as good. And you're right, it's uh it's a dual projection of things that I deny in myself. And again, then you get into the whole conversation about collectivism versus individualism, and that's that's always an interesting conversation that we probably aren't. I'm not skilled enough to have at this point.
SPEAKER_01:So I would say, though, that there is an interesting dynamic within the Christian faith that goes back and forth between an individual faith and a collective community faith. And I think the answer to that is yes to both. But I would also say that very often within that particular faith tradition, the collective work is much more palatable than the individual work. Once we've had this faith crisis moment, so often it feels like, oh, and that's done. Now I can move on to influencing the world, when in fact that's just the beginning of the inward journey to try and discover what there is within me that contributes to the conflict that's taking place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for me, my own personal philosophy really is if I've done my individual work, and whether whether it's Christ consciousness or the divine or however you want to frame it, if I've done my work, this is just my my my opinion, my journey, then I live my life in a way that attracts. And I don't need to say much. Through my actions, through my interactions, through my treating people with respect as best I can, at the same time taking care of myself emotionally. As I live out the divine nature or the Christ consciousness where love is demanded, but love is complicated. It doesn't mean I'm I'm a pushover. It means I love myself as well as I love others. I live that out. There is no need necessarily at that point to preach the gospel, even though that's a part of it, depending on your developmental levels of where you're at. I think as you grow and mature, you get to a place where you just live out authentically that that expression. You don't you don't shy away from expressing it, but you also don't go into every conversation thinking you have to express it.
SPEAKER_01:It's just a way of being I love that a way of being. I can't imagine a better spot to bring an end to this particular episode. I appreciate it, Jim.
SPEAKER_00:It's been And if you want to edit that last part out, I I can understand that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I just said it was a great place to end, and you needed to minimize that. I'm not sure why that was true.
SPEAKER_00:But because I'm very aware that we're filled with opinions in the world and everybody's got one. So I I I hold that all all sacred in a sacred way that everybody has a view of things. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Jim, thanks. Always great to be with you, my friend.
SPEAKER_00:All right, buddy. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks. Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Dr. Shally at AFCcounselors.com, or Dr. Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing. Stay curious and take good care of yourself. Yeah, no, that's good stuff.