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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E15 STIR Crazy: Stabilizers / Transformers / Initiators / Responders
What if your stress, your arguments, and your burnout all point to one simple mismatch—using the right energy at the wrong time? We explore a Jungian-informed model of four energies—Stabilizer, Transformer, Initiator, Responder (STIR)—and show how balancing them reduces conflict, eases burnout, and strengthens relationships. Real client stories ground the ideas in clear steps you can use.
We start with the Stabilizer: the part that craves order, fairness, and control. Through real therapy and coaching stories, we trace how chaos at home or work pushes Stabilizers into rigidity, and how a subtle shift—setting boundaries for yourself rather than managing everyone else—brings relief. From there we meet the Transformer, the intuitive creative who sees possibilities others miss. We talk charisma, dry spells, and why epiphanies without structure stall. You’ll hear practical ways to ground big ideas.
Then we move to the Initiator, the action engine that turns vision into motion. We explore how to keep momentum without steamrolling context, creating cadences that protect scope and relationships. Finally, we honor the Responder, the caregiver who anticipates needs until they’re exhausted. We dig into false guilt, overfunctioning, and the healing power of being witnessed—how feeling heard restores energy and makes boundaries possible. Throughout, we map how these four energies collaborate. Integration is the goal, not perfection—borrowing the right voice at the right moment so life feels less like a fight and more like flow.
If the model resonates, share this episode with a friend who’d benefit, and consider which energy you want to practice this week. Subscribe for more grounded psychology, leave a review to help others find the show, and reach out if you’d like to work with us one-on-one.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. My name is D. Kelly, and my co-host Jim Shaley is here with me. And we're coming toward the end of this particular season, this series on personality styles, looking at a model by which we can understand ourselves and understand others and the relationships that we're in. And it is a theory that is born out of Jungian psychology. And it allows us to look at the masculine and feminine energies within all of us, the dynamic and static movement within all of us. And we've been working on that for about 12 episodes, and we're going to try and pull some of these things together this episode. And so we want to do a bit of a review, a little bit of reminder of the places where we've come from and how this might help us as we look toward the future. And this time I'm going to stop with each descriptor in the word stir and ask you to think in your mind of a client that came to you that fit that particular category.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, sure. Put me on spot here. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:No, and I don't want you to name specifics. I just want you to say what's the kind of thing that brought them in and made them think, I need help. What kind of conflict might this person experience or what might they see? So STERB begins with S, the stabilizer, which is a masculine static energy. And the characteristics are that they are organizers, they put systems in place, they care about justice as it is equal to all. Any other characteristics that you want to generally add concerning the stabilizer?
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Ross Powell They want peace, they are perfectionistic, they're kind of inflexible, they set limits or boundaries, they fit into group expectations, they're pretty disciplined. So there's a lot of a lot of rigidity to it in that sense. Yes. And so unfortunately, what brings them into therapy typically is someone who's created chaos.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Powell Great point. It's creating the thing they're uncomfortable with.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely true. So they'll come in and out and they can't control things. They have a teenager who's, you know, getting high all the time, things that they cannot control. And so that brings them into therapy. And that's a tough one because it makes sense in their minds. You got to help me bring m make my kid behave. Or I have a lady right now who he's got a 16-year-old kid who's who's going to be in probably incredibly successful in making money in lots of different ways. Let's just say. Yeah. And she's like, he just he's out, he's on Facebook marketplace buying and selling and stuff. I don't even know. He's and so she's a very strong stabilizer. And so she obviously has caused her stress. And so I'm supposed to help her bring control to him, which obviously I can only help bring control to her. So in that sense, you really have to reframe how she's using her natural energy internally. And so you don't necessarily push him to other quadrants. You just get them to handle things they can they can handle, which is how do you bring stability to yourself? How do you use your natural strength to set boundaries with you? Well, it's setting boundaries with her kid, uh, the limits, all those things that make sense. Now, in order to help them do that, then you move them to the, what I would say more likely the feminine responder. So they have to give themselves lots of grace, lots of space, and really benefit the value of the stabilizer and not be so frustrated, but realize it it's really trying to help, but right now you can only help yourself. So that would be an example of the stabilizer. That is a great example.
SPEAKER_02:I think for the stabilizer, we've used this phrase many, many times in previous episodes, but I think the stabilizer is one of the individuals who is most subject to feeling like how can you argue against the rightness of being organized and in order? And so that phrase, do you want to be right or be in relationship, hits home for the stabilizer in both painful and important ways. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So let's move on to the next one of Stir. It is the Transformer, which is this feminine dynamic energy, an expression that is incredibly intuitive, sometimes almost prophetic voice, the poet, the artist.
SPEAKER_00:At least they think they think they are.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:They're usually drinking or getting high at the time, but you know, that's a different conversation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02:That's at the extreme. And and often I would, in giving kind of an excuse for that uh addictive response, is that the world often doesn't know what to do with the transformer, and so they don't know where they fit. And it is this feeling not a part of the larger system that sometimes leads to those things. So how about this individual, what leads them to come in to see you or face the problem that it that they don't understand themselves well enough or something?
SPEAKER_00:Well, the uh to be really honest about it, they're typically in relationship with the stabilizer. So they'll almost always come in with the stabilizer part of themselves that's bread that's dragging them into therapy a little bit.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Ross Powell So they've externalized that part of them, the stabilizer.
SPEAKER_00:Or that's addictions therapy. They'll go to an addictions therapist because they've they've gotten too excessive in some of their habits. I have a young guy right now who's who cannot get off of nicotine. He's been smoking cigarettes since he was 13. He shifted a while back to vaping, but still with nicotine. And yeah, he's he's an incredible transformer. I mean, he he's an incredible bird hunter. He travels the world searching birds and stuff. But he's but he came in this week and he was just saying, I gotta, I, I, I gotta quit this vaping. It's it's crazy. I cannot I cannot go uh in the middle of the night I'm picking it up and and getting a hit of nicotine. So that's that's the extreme. They they come in sometimes for that, but usually it's with a in a relationship where they've been too excessive. Or they don't set boundaries or they don't keep a job. Again, that's the negative side of it. The positive side of it, they're very inspirational. They're creative, they uh they really do transform things because they see the world differently than other people. So in that sense, they could get carried away with their ideas and not make a living. So they would come in and they would be incredibly energetic, fun to talk to, good sense of humor. But then you ask them, well, so what's what's bringing you in? Well, I can't seem to keep a job. My my husband or my wife basically says I I'm way too much fun, I'm too spontaneous, I don't I don't sit still. Sometimes the diagnosis ADHD kicks in, all that stuff. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I think that it's probably dangerous for those of us who aren't transformers to underestimate the attractiveness of certain aspects of the transformer. They have can have a a charisma about them. Oh, geez, absolutely. And the way in which they see the world is often surprising, or or that they say what you thought, but you didn't think you could say, and they say it anyway, because they say what comes to their mind very often. And that freedom that they seem.
SPEAKER_00:The social social media is filled with that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think that's right. Um, and I think that the freedom they seem to express can be kind of envied by others, but also the freedom that they express kind of covers sometimes a feeling of lack of freedom. Like they are restricted in many ways. They have parents who pressed them or pushed them down. They had employers that kept putting boundaries on them. They uh and there is this strange thing about freedom of expression, but feeling like they are butting up against a wall over and over again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the interesting thing about them is that when you get one engaged in therapy, the good side of their style is they're really open to new new ways of looking at things. Now, they may have a hard time implementing them, because again, they're such they're such good with ideas, because they'll get excited, they'll have an epiphany every other session. But again, implementing it, which is the stabilizer part, which is typically they're in relationship with. And I will tell couples all the time that have that dynamic, you have a really good working relationship, but right now you do not value each other. You're trying to defeat each other rather than working cooperatively, because a stabilizer would say, No, we can't possibly do that. Oh my word, you're way out, you're way out of, you're out of your mind. And the stabilizer then feels what? Shut down. So then they they feel discouraged and they pull back. That's why so many of the conversations I've had, and again, it's sometimes flipping, but typically it's the the the male who is incredibly uh idea-driven, sees the possibilities, and wants to go for it. And I will say, he's a dreamer. That's what he does. Well, what does a stabilizer kick into when someone dreams? They kick into, well, let's make it happen. How are we going to make it happen? Well, then typically the the transformer doesn't have the skill set to go to a bank and do a business plan to start a business, and then the stabilizer will come along and want to do that, and then it'll frustrate the transformer because the the stabilizer is taking control of it. So you can see where that goes. And that that's just, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And the stabilizer's taking too much time.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And right, absolutely. And so the transformer trying to get them to see, okay, in order for you to do this, what if you did it on your own? Well, you're gonna have to get money. So we, yeah, I got a friend. I got a friend. He'll give me the money. And I go, well, what if you had to go to the bank and get money? He goes, Man, I got to do a whole plan. I go, yeah, that's the other side of your brain.
SPEAKER_02:So in that dynamic energy, the next person in this stir is the initiator, which it is kind of the comparable dynamic energy. Yeah. One's more of a feminine expression, one's more of a masculine expression. It's bad way of an initiator doesn't see much of the need for the relational context.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's that's the cool part. Because the the transformer I mean for them, yes. Well, for the organization, if they want to, if they want it to work, the transformer will have to step back and then it will almost always get implemented by their initiator in a way the transformer doesn't agree with. And that's why someone who has the skill set of both of those, yeah, they take over the world. Because they they come up with the idea and they implement it. Or they or they hire the right people to implement it the way they want it. And they're control freaks, but they also hire the right people to do it that way. But yeah, that's the hard part because the transformer has the ideas, so they want ownership of it. So they need to get their ID copyrighted. Well, why would I do that? Well, that's that's the stabilizer. So, you know. Yeah, that's why it's so fascinating. They just work together. And yeah, we don't want to, I think I I I don't want to paint a false sense that it's easy to do all this, and all of a sudden we all are little automons where we walk around and we don't need anybody else in our lives, but it just relieves so much tension oftentimes in their relationships when we realize that we can access that when we need to for ourselves at times.
SPEAKER_02:I think the great advantage of becoming self-aware enough that you know those different parts of yourself is that you then begin to value them in others. I think that changes it, but it is that thing that outward change is not going to happen until there's inward change. Right. If I begin to appreciate and value those different parts that exist in me and what they bring, then I value so much more someone who's different than me, but is better at that thing that they do than I am. And I and I invite that voice to the table. I also know when to set boundaries on that voice and create a system that's balanced and healthy, and uh not giving one more voice when it's inappropriate so that so that boundaries come after, not defense mechanisms before. Yep. And that feels like a much healthier approach. Okay, so we've got the initiator that's taking action and it's it's forward movement constant, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's kind of the driving force. They are the driving force.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and they'll come back to the idea person in the transformer and say, okay, what else you got? And then transformer goes, oh, okay. I'm not right, I've got nothing right now. Come on, we're in the middle of this thing. What else? How are we gonna how are we gonna do this? I don't I don't know that yet. Oh, well, let's figure it out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It is interesting when transformers are giving given more rain, given more opportunities, they sometimes balance out.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, because they go, I really haven't thought that through yet. Let me uh yeah, let me let me think about that. Yeah. That's interesting. And then what what happens to happen what has to happen is naturally going into the to the R of the stir, which is the responder. Yeah. Yeah. They need to sit with it and kind of nurture themselves and give them space to actually come up with the solution to a problem the initiator may may have the transformer to solve. Transformer needs to be able to have the confidence to sit quietly and go, you know what? I need to take a few days and just relax and think about some things and then take care of themselves, which is what days off are about, which are in my mind. This week I took Thursday off, so I didn't work yesterday. And I could just tell there there was such a refreshing because I just I came over to my property and I just did what I wanted to do, hung out, got frustrated with the equipment, but other than that, and those days are so important. And I think we underestimate they represent really the responder. They're caretaking, they they nurture, they they accept things, they protect, they do all kinds of really good things. They anticipate needs, you know, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02:It's interesting to me that transformers, often the creatives among us, have what they will refer to as dry spells, where they nothing seems to be coming a wonderful writer, just as writer's block. And for what I'm hearing you say is if they can pay attention to the responder side of themselves and do some self-cares And not feel guilty about it and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so getting to that responder side, if that is your dominance style, and you find great joy and purpose and meaning in the care giving or the nurturing, taking care of details, uh what are those things that often bring that person in when life has become unsatisfying or a sense of or lack of purpose? What brings those individuals in to try and work on some things?
SPEAKER_00:Uh one simple thing, they're exhausted. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They're exhausted and they're frustrated and they're probably a little depressed. Again, typically it's for just the normal outpatient practice. A woman in their mid to late 40s, early 50s, who are exhausted, tired, depressed. No one's listening to them, no one's caring about them. They've given and given because the secret part of all this, if I give my natural energy, I'm looking for something back. And for a responder to acknowledge that they're looking for the responder, they're looking for the nurturing back is hard for them. Because they would say, no, I was there to meet needs. But they also uh projected their own need in that sense. So then therapy for them really is listening to them. And for a l for quite a while before you really start pushing back at all, because they just need someone to listen and to validate their experience and say, you gave a lot. I had a lady this week who I just simply said, man, it's amazing how you pull off what you do or what you have done. And she goes, I know it was, but I'm just exhausted. Of course you are. Because what did what did you get back? Well, my kids are okay, I guess. I said, okay, but do they appreciate? Well, maybe occasionally they do. I said, but do the the way you would appreciate it if someone had done that for you? No, not at all. So yeah, it's almost always exhaustion.
SPEAKER_02:I had a couple working with them, and uh the story is not dependent really upon what quadrant they naturally fall in, but it was this moment where I asked them to simply say what they wanted their partner to know about themselves. And active listening, the partner simply said what they heard. And we'd back and forth a few times on this to get past that first layer. And what's another thing you want your partner to know about you? And I framed it as when you're in a relationship, one of the things you bring to each other is that you are a witness to their life, which is very much a responder posture. But to do that for one another and to give them a, particularly for those that are stabilizers, a framework. Well, I guess for anyone else who's not a nurturer, a way by which to do that, uh an exercise that gives them a structure. And they the engagement, as often happens, goes well beyond just a little exercise as they actually feel heard, and that nurturing gives them strength to step into other parts of the relationship that might be conflictual just because they've been heard. And I I love what you brought up that the responder sometimes what they need more than anything else is just somebody who will give witness to their life. There's validation.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because again, they they the downside is they overfunction so much that they spoil everybody. Well, when you spoil everybody, they just expect more. And that's why they that's why they become so exhausted. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Other members of a family will often say, Well, I didn't know you needed that. You never come across like you need anything.
SPEAKER_00:The really interesting part is if you know that and you try to push back at a responder, they get frustrated. Well, I can do I can take care of that. Because their their identity is so tied up in meeting those needs that if you try to push back and say, you know, I'll take care of that. Well, why would you do that? 'Cause because I want I want to, that would be good. Or whatever. Yeah. It's really interesting. And even if even if you do it once they're exhausted, they'll still feel guilty about it, which is what I call false guilt. Because they think they should still be functioning at that same level.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It is also interesting to try and get the at the roots of that false guilt, because often it has some past back to our opening episodes of looking back to move forward.
SPEAKER_00:Looking back to move forward, yep. It's so true. Yeah, I mean, that's why I say, even though it may sound corny, stir it up, baby, stir it up. You know? Because when you start getting in touch with all the aspects, it stirs up a lot of interesting thoughts and conflicts because you realize, oh, I g I g I gotta take responsibility for my life. Oh yeah, that's that's really at the heart of it all. And I know life experiences affects that, and even my formation of it and your embracing of it is born out of my own my own journey of having to take care of lots of things on your own.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. Um and I would say, from my experience, that this model does different things for us at different stages in our life. Like we might learn some things that help us early on in a relationship and give us some tools, and then we'll come back 15 years later and go, oh, I need to revisit how over these last several years I have developed this side of me and have not been paying enough attention as evidenced by the conflicts that I repeat in my life in this way. And when you come to later stages in your life, it midlife issues change how you view the world and give you new opportunities to explore and grow. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Dr. Shally at AFCcounselors.com or Dr. Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing. Stay curious and take good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, it's good stuff.