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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E11 Initiating Energy Part 2: Real Change
A single line sparked the conversation: the life you want is on the other side of the work you’re avoiding. From that starting point, we unpack what actually turns insight into movement and why so many smart plans stall before they start. We talk candidly about initiating energy—the force that begins things—and how non‑initiators can find it without trying to become someone they’re not, while initiators learn to temper speed with care so progress doesn’t cost connection.
We get practical about fear, procrastination, and the inner monologue that either blocks or enables action. You’ll hear how to locate past moments of initiation and reuse that feeling, why accountability matters more than another goal sheet, and how to balance compassion with structure so your emotions inform your choices without running them. We explore the common dynamic where logic wins the argument but loses the relationship, the power of listening without fixing, and the value of inviting honest feedback—complete with a “court jester” who can safely tell you where you’re veering off track.
For leaders and high‑drive personalities, we spotlight early signals of burnout, the trap of turning self‑care into a to‑do list, and the discipline of tuning into the body as data. We also examine the shadow side of relentless initiation—control, isolation, and missed human moments—alongside its world‑shaping potential, from innovation to cultural breakthroughs. The real project is integration: blending initiator, responder, stabilizer, and transformer energies so you can finish what matters, release what doesn’t, and move forward with integrity.
If this conversation helps you see your next step, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a quick review to tell us what you’ll start—or stop—this week.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. I'm D. Kelly, and I'm here with my co-host, Jim Shaley. I heard a s statement the other day, one of those cute quips that make you think. This one stuck with me a little bit longer. The line is the life you want is on the other side of the work you are avoiding. I kind of look at initiators that don't have as many obstacles. They push past there's not much they avoid when they are determined to go after a goal. Absolutely. Yep, absolutely sure. All of those who are struggling to find initiating energy find all kinds of things to avoid the work that will get them to that life they want. And so it becomes really crucial for us to understand the initiator, not that we want that to that we're trying to make that our default, but to access that energy within and push back what we avoid to do the things that will get us where we want to be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And again, the the classic thing is, you know, you hire an executive coach, they'll almost always set goals. Well, if I'm any of the other expressions, that's a great idea. But if I don't act if I don't access, if I don't access the initiating energy, it's like, okay. And a lot of people will set goals and they'll never look at those goals again. But they will feel like they've made some movement because they've established a goal. That's why lots of times you'll see action steps, because there has to be action steps to implement the goal. But again, if I'm not a natural initiator, I'm gonna hope somebody else helps me do it, or I'm gonna it's just frustrating because then I've set all these goals, but I never do them, and then you end up getting more discouraged because again, the accountability for people that don't have natural initiating energy is crucial for the movement or nothing changes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think the non-initiators, many of us are thrilled with are thrilled when somebody presents a workbook where you can fill in the blanks. What are my five goals? What are the four acts and so and then how am I going to make them smart goals and how are they measurable? And when you've done all that, you've put together this great little journal or notebook, you go, see, I did it. Well, nothing. You've not done anything.
SPEAKER_01:That's why I say insight doesn't create change. There has to be movement. And that's again, that's the hardest. It'd be interesting to know, but it it probably is for the non-initiating types, it's probably the hardest expression to really, really implement. Yeah. And yet is the core it's the core of all change from that perspective.
SPEAKER_00:So hang in their initiators. We're talking about non-initiators for just a moment.
SPEAKER_01:That's true.
SPEAKER_00:But we've highlighted, I just want to say it again. One of the ways by which a non-initiator begins to tap into that energy is to ask the question, where have actually where have I actually seen initiation in my life? Right. What have I done with it?
SPEAKER_01:And then get and get in touch with the feeling of it when it's worked. Yeah. When you really felt good about it.
SPEAKER_00:And to identify those things that keep me from initiating, that allow me to avoid, that allow me to procrastinate, what is the emotional weight that contributes to that fear? So is it fear of what other people will think, fear of success, fear of this voice that's going to crop up in my head from my family of origin? What is it that stymies us and to confront that inwardly in ways that allow you to talk back to the voice that's within and say, what are you trying to protect me from? And is there something that I am afraid of that keeps me from initiating? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're really you're really expressing the the most important monologue, which is the one you just said. The conversation with myself about all of this, if it makes any sense on any level, that conversation becomes as important as any conversation you've ever had with other people or whoever, it's with yourself. It's like, okay, if that all makes sense right now, like we've said on s on all the podcasts, I'm right here. Where do I need to be today given what I think I want to do? And again, I may need to take care of myself. One of my clients this week asked me, he asked a personal question, which I seldom answer, but in this situation, I I took it a little more, a little more directly. And he asked, So if you need caring and no one else is giving it to you, what do you do? And I said, Well, I I go to Utah and ride trails.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I I expanded on that. But basically something that brings me joy that I initiate and go do. I I integrate all the different expressions when I when you do that, but you still have to initiate and follow through with that. And so in his for his example, it was like, what's the conversation with yourself about what you know you need to do for you? And in the past, for him, it's been business. But now that he's semi-retired, he was thinking, what what is it now? But again, my point is that that monologue, that conversation, it's like, okay, what am I lacking right now? Or what am I what am I feeling sad about, or what am I just uh wondering, you know, what's the feeling I'm having? And what best expression right now would would take care of that.
SPEAKER_00:That's great, Jim. I also think sometimes we can ask ourselves, what are the projects that you have wanted to do that you never seem to complete? How many half-done projects are there? And then what would it take to say, okay, the priority is to complete a project and to listen to myself, experience the feeling, and then decide what projects I just am done with and I put away.
SPEAKER_01:A whole other thing that just kind of popped into my thinking that there's so many in our culture right now, there seems to be so many excuses as to why not as to not to do that. The one thing that popped into my mind right now was I have several clients that struggle with ADHD. So they would say they have these goals and things they want to accomplish, but then they say their brain doesn't function. And so that it's the ADHD. Until I get that under control, can I really do this? And yet then I'll point out something in their lives when they get focused on they're able to do that. It's just more challenging. And I'm not saying their ADHD doesn't exist. I'm just saying that it's sometimes easy to come up with excuses rather than just simply saying, okay, the the uh the uncomfortable, dirty little word is uh uh is is discipline. And I've over the years I I've struggled with that because so many people conjure up ideas of what that means uh in a in a negative way, as opposed to any kind of change does demand a conversation and accountability. So the purest form of accountability is self-accountability, and that's taking responsibility for my journey about where I need to be. So, yes, that conversation is so important to say, okay, I could I could want my my partner to do this, I could want my kids to do that, I could want my employer to do all this, but ultimately how do I get to a place where I take responsibility for it and make the changes.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna offer one last piece. I think this is coming from one myself who has spent a lot of time thinking about the initiator energy and how important it is for me to tap into that to accomplish the things that I want to accomplish, because it is not the natural energy of my life, but I've come to value- It's kind of it's kind of amazing that we're even doing these podcasts. It's the truth. But is that the initiators, there are certain initiators that I would have a tendency to vilify because they've left a wake of relationship destruction in their pathway, or the way they have lived out their initiation has been kind of in an unconscious way and has been hurtful or painful to others, not paying attention to others' needs. If I vilify and hold initiators in that category, then for me to tap into that energy violates that tagline. And so I have to confront that the very thing that I vilify is in me. Once I acknowledge that it is in me, the very thing that I am saying about the other is a projection of that within me, hard to recognize because we stuff it into the shadow side so far it's tough to pull it out. But once I begin to do that, then the initiating energy becomes less I don't fear the toxicity nearly as much as I did if I'm able to acknowledge that the toxicity inside of me.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think again, that's why I go back to I talked about a few minutes 20 minutes ago, is that balance between compassion and accountability. An emotion-driven person, they're incredibly aware of that. But if they don't bring some kind of stability to the their emotions, then they're all over the map and they have a hard time accomplishing things. On the other hand, if you get too much in the accountability, you're so structured and so disciplined in some ways that it takes the joy out of life. So that's why internalizing both of those expressions, I identify the emotional aspect of me and what the emotions want to do or what my feelings want to do. And then I also kind of balance them out with the accountability. What's it look like to let this feeling be expressed? And how do I do that with some integrity? And again, that balance is so, so important. I mean, you know, my my word for it in in counseling is mood-driven. The mood-driven person oftentimes are with someone who is absolutely head-driven. They're the intellectual side of them. I have a couple right now, that's that's their dance. It's tip it's her, that's the more emotion-driven. And the husband is sometimes minimizes her feelings because he's out of touch with his. So I'm working at balancing that out and basically saying the journey is individual. I mean, I identify for him they're feeling you have strong feelings. And he acknowledges that. And I looked at her and I said, And you have strong head knowledge about some things. She acknowledged that. I said, That's just the dance. You guys project on each other uh that expression as opposed to owning that and saying, okay, how can I be more balanced? And they're able to they've been able to really understand it, even though even though the the emotion-driven one, the lady said, you know, this has taken such a long time. And I looked at it and I went, it's only been like two months. So it's because she wanted more progress on a feelings level. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This is an overgeneralization, and I realize that. But when there are two individuals, it doesn't even have to be a male and a female. It can be two males, it can be two females. But when you when you have two people, one of whom argues from a logical s a logical side, and one of whom argues from a relational emotion side, the logic side person will typically win the battle and lose the war. Absolutely. Yep. And they don't know that they're losing the war. And that's that's when the crisis comes when when being right ends up being the one who loses because you've not paid attention to the fact that right is not the only issue here.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell Right. And we didn't we haven't talked much about the negative expression of the initiator, is that they really discount the emotional side of it and they miss so many opportunities to connect with people that on some level isn't as important as accomplishing the task. That's why, again, we've said it a thousand times, the balance of that is so important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So let's draw this to some closure and specifically for the initiator, powerful energy in the world helps.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely necessary, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's all major progress seems to be primarily driven by an initiating force. And that initiating force is typical, typically coming from people who are initiators. What are some of the admonitions? What are the things that just because I'm an initiator, I ought to be looking out for? The cautions, the the highlights, the ways I can improve what I do to be more balanced and whole. Give us some suggestions.
SPEAKER_01:Well, actually, it's uh the most the easiest way to do it is to ask those people in your life. Because they will tell. They will tell. They will tell you. It is like a mic drop moment. Well, and and again, that's why the the courage to simply ask, how do how do you experience me is such a profound way. If you give people the the permission to tell the truth. Yeah, I mean, the initiator who lives typically with the responder, if you say, So w what's my weakness? What's what what thing do I need to work on? And and if if you mean it, they will tell you. You're always moving. You never sit down, you never stop. Okay. Well w is that a bad thing? Well, not necessarily, but it could be. So yeah, you'll you ask other people how they experience you. I mean, uh the other thing too, if you're if you're a leader, if you uh if you're a conscious leader at all and you respect the people that you're leading, and you have a form where you can ask for their feedback because it's safe enough to do that, again, it's it's pretty obvious what they'll tell you. And then you have to look out for the I mean it's kind of like the the analogy of giving somebody permission in your group to just to be a court jester, to basically say the things no one else wants to say. In my mind, that's one of the most important aspects of leadership is having somebody that's outside of that you trust, isn't it? They can't be, you know, obviously uh just just jerky or obnoxious in some ways, but that you do trust to be able to say, so tell me where I'm going off track. And those are typically stabilizers, what we've talked about before, but they're a pretty good balance of the stabilizer, the responder, and the transformer. Because they'll see things no one else sees and they'll have the courage to speak it up, to speak it if they've given been been given permission. The initiator or the malcontent in an organization that's an initiator but negative, they'll take shots at you. So they'll sit in a in a meeting and they'll think they can do it better, and so they'll be it'll be a negative kind of encounter in that perspective. Because they're initiators too, and they're trying to subvert perhaps the one in charge. You have to pay attention to that. But back to your basic question is uh other people is one of the most the best ways, uh people that you trust, best ways for you to get a handle on how you're coming across. Wow. Thanks, Jim. I mean, sometimes the other the other thing I can say is sometimes a leader will feel really alone and isolated. Well, if that's the case, if they if they come in and talk to me about feeling that way, they probably are so strong that they've shut out people's expressions of how they're coming across. They've been so successful at it or or so good at it that no one dares to really tell them or uh counter what's happening. If they've had if had they've had great business success or or whatever, in that sense, it's harder to get people to speak up to the to the limitations of a personality style.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. So everybody around them becomes enablers in essence. I also think that sometimes for initiators, i they often don't sense burnout soon enough. Like it can hit them by surprise because the successes come. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. A lot of times they'll they'll spend it one or two weeks in the hospital every year. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Which then leads to the kind of I don't know, maybe this is a suggestion, but the notion that they take on self-care as a project, like a to-do list, as opposed to taking on self-care as an as self-care, as a something to just experience and hold as a life giving.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Their self-care would be let's go on vacation and see everything we can possibly see in a one-week period of time. And at the end of it, they'll be more exhausted. But they'll think they've relaxed because they've done a bunch of stuff that were not work-related.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And so in some ways, would it be fair to say that one of the great ways for an initiator to maybe move back into balance is to do some things that make them more aware of what their body is saying, listening to their body talk, because the the body becomes very often just a vessel to accomplish more and more success. But pay attention to where you feel inflammation, pay attention to where you need sleep, pay attention to what your body is trying to push you toward. Is that a fair direction to put?
SPEAKER_01:And again, that's another way, back to your earlier question. That's another way to diagnose, is it really be in touch with what's happening with your body. A lot of times the initiators will go to the doctor to get a pill or some quick fix to take care of it, when in reality it's it's a a bigger conversation that they should have with themselves, which is okay. Where am I again, even asking the question, where am I out of balance? For an initiator to ask that question, they're going like, I'm not out of balance. I I just need to do more. I need to figure out what's wrong and then fix it, as opposed to, wait a minute, fixing it must mean may mean just sitting with someone and enjoying the moment, as hard as that is. You know, the old adage, there's no there's no wasted time in front of fire and water. I think even sitting in front of a fireplace or at a lake, if you can really appreciate those moments, it's a little bit of a task, but it's also trying to get in touch with just being.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The initiator has a hard time just being.
SPEAKER_00:I think the initiating side of all of those who operate from a more masculine energy or expression is when you're in a relationship with somebody who expresses a problem and you try and fix it, and their response is, I'm not looking for anybody to fix this. I just want somebody to listen. If you can hold on to one of those moments to reference back to in the future and go, wow, so simply being present with somebody is what's desired in some situations.
SPEAKER_01:Right. The other way you can get an initiator to identify that is to say, you ever had a brainstorming session where you just wanted people just to kind of think out loud about things? That's being present. It may you may have thought you were talking about establishing a new goal or something, but you were present with these people and You were open to their ideas. That's being present or in the moment.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Ross Powell And that's also the beginning point of valuing other energies that are important in the world and then important internally for the initiator. So for the initiator to respect the responder, not just for what they bring to their life, but to say, oh, I actually need to do some of that inwardly so that I can also be a responder when it's appropriate, or transformer or organizer. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:All of those. And again, the negative side of the initiator are, I guess, for lack of a better way of saying it, the the negative side is they become dictatorial. They become full of power and control, and they want their way all the time. That's the extreme initiator.
SPEAKER_00:And taking that all the way to the extreme.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And what's interesting is the cult the cult leader almost always has all the other expressions in that cult.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, right.
SPEAKER_01:That served the initiator. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But what a powerful energy in the world. It brings benefit to far more to themselves, eventually, the kinds of things that they bring about. Yeah, so many people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, to your point earlier, it's vilified or it's lauded. I mean, uh the classic example in our culture, I was thinking yesterday about it. Just all the great innovators and people that we look back on, whether it's Henry Ford with the assembly line, whether it's Tesla with with electricity, just amazing these people. And along with Tesla, Elon Musk. He gets incredibly vilified or lauded. And yet he's brought so many innovations and things to the world that without him may have taken longer, may have still happened. But there's always been these people in the world throughout history that have created big great changes because they had this natural initiating energy and they were so focused on, you know, for Elon Musk getting to Mars. Well, you know what, people think that's crazy. Well, that's what it was it was like people living in Europe who wanted to go to the New World. They knew it was there, and they got in these ships and they took off across this ocean. I mean, that just it's an amazing energy. But it also can and it creates jobs, it creates worlds for lots of people. And we vilify it or we laud it. And sometimes we just need to kind of calm down. And my phrase for some of my clients is, whoa, Nelly, just slow down a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and what we have hoped in this podcast is that we shift that word to could we integrate it instead of vilifying it or making a hero out of somebody else, could we take that energy and integrate it into our life in ways that are healthy and whole and balanced, and that inward change will result in transformation outwardly as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I tell people jokingly a little bit that if if it was up to me, we'd still be trying to figure out how to have fire.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I would go, every once in a while, this lightning from the sky comes down and starts a fire. Let's just keep doing that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And everybody looks at you and goes, Oh, sure, I want to follow that guy.
SPEAKER_01:What? Exactly. It's like, whoa, didn't you just reveal way too much to us? I go, Yeah, probably I did. Anyway. Well, this has been great. Good discussion. Good discussion, Dee. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:And kind of completes our going in depth with each of the personality styles. We're going to spend the next few weeks looking at projection, looking at how this plays itself out in relationship and trying to integrate all of them. So we hope you come back and join us for the subsequent episodes. Great to be with you, Jim, and with all who joined us. Thank you, Dee. Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Dr. Shally at AFCcounselors.com or Dr. Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing. Stay curious and take good care of yourself. Yeah, no, that's good stuff.