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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E16 Having Tough Conversations
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We open our archive of listener questions to explore how to give honest feedback without a therapy license, how to manage triggers with self-awareness, and how parents can raise more integrated, emotionally grounded kids. We use simple tools like permission, curiosity, and active listening, then wrestle with school competition, adolescent individuation, and the culture’s uneasy relationship with accountability.
• asking permission before offering feedback
• using curiosity to reduce defensiveness
• tracking triggers and projection in conflict
• I-statements that name impact, not blame
• a two-part active listening exercise
• early personality formation and integration
• parenting with all four STIR quadrants
• adolescents pushing for individuation
• school competition vs nurtured strengths
• truth-telling, accountability, and growth
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I am one of your co-hosts, D. Kelly. And I want to let you know that as we move into the next couple of episodes, we are tackling some of the questions that have been submitted by our listeners. And you're welcome to submit a question as well by going to either one of our websites and submitting a question that you have about the things that we've been talking about. As well, we thought that this particular episode, we might pull back the curtain a little bit on the production of this particular podcast. We often press the record button before we actually start. And this time we picked up some of the conversation that was outlining where we were going today. And we thought you might want to listen in to some of that background. It's about the first four minutes of this episode, so feel free to skip ahead if you don't want to listen to that stuff. But welcome. We're glad you're here. Okay, this is probably a good one to start on. These two. I'll do these two. And I've got four more. So maybe we'll just get started. But here's one that I'll probably start on. You made a comment that by age five, our personality is solidifying in a particular direction, approximately by age five. So we can have these intelligent conversations with most five-year-olds.
SPEAKER_00:Ah Yep. That's why that one book. Does anybody ever get out of kindergarten or whatever it was?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you really don't read books because that's an ethical title. Stuff like that though. Yeah, it's close. It's close. Everything I have learned, I learned in kindergarten. There you go. My goodness. But you haven't read it, right?
SPEAKER_01:No, you don't read it.
SPEAKER_04:So the question was if I'm the parent of this four, five, six, seven-year-old, what are some of the ways by which in parenting I encourage integration? Individuation comes later, but this is more of an encouragement of integration. And then the follow-up question was, it seems like schools, at least at some level, reward competition, grade systems or extracurricular activities that require sports teams or music where you get first chair or second chair or whatever, which seems to lean toward the dynamic side of things, the initiator, maybe the transformer, but more the initiator. What do you do as a parent to try and balance that in terms of better integration of life's journey? That was a great one. And then another question, I think, is a great one that said, now, Jim, who's a therapist, is by nature given the task to call out stuff and people. They come to you because that's what you do. Well, if you're not a therapist and you're in a relationship with people, how do you approach somebody that has inflexible thinking if you think it's an important thing to do, but you're not a therapist, so you're not given the task to do that for somebody. So I love that one. So anyway.
SPEAKER_00:That is a good question.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So here's what I think we'll do. Let's start with that question, because it's a great lead-in. Jim is the therapist. And then we're probably going to go to a parenting question, the one I just mentioned.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. You ready? Sure. You just wanted to talk about your dream, so maybe that's what we got in couple.
SPEAKER_02:If I can remember it.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my goodness. See, I don't think season two is gonna work because you don't put into practice anything that I say about how I remember them or you.
SPEAKER_00:So no, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna be better. I should have. I woke up and I thought, that's a good dream. I probably should remember that. And then I didn't. Yeah, I think we're gonna go straight to season three.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. It is great to have you here. I'm your co-host, D. Kelly. I'm here with Jim Shaley. And we are exploring the inner landscape of personality and digging a little bit deeper into why we do some of the things that we do and how we could better integrate our life by having uh uh increased self-awareness. So, Jim, great to be with you. Great to be with you, Dee. Thanks. I'm gonna start off with a question. We've had several questions that have come in from listeners. Thought it might be good to address a few of those. And one mentioned you by name. The question went something like that. Oh, excellent. Okay. That's right. So they are at least remembering that. Yeah, that's and remembering that you are the authority in this podcast. Oh, wow. Okay. That's that's a scary place to be. Here's what here's what was asked referencing you. Now, Jim is a therapist, and by nature, a therapist is tasked with the responsibility to call out stuff in people. And that's what somebody comes to you and they're expecting you to name something in their life. So they come with a certain level of expectation. This person was asking if you're not a therapist and you're in a relationship or a friendship or maybe a vocational setting, and you feel like it's important to call out inflexible thinking in somebody or something along the line of what we've been talking about in numerous episodes, but you've not been given permission to do that necessarily.
SPEAKER_00:Well, uh it would be an interesting question to ask the the listener is that have they asked for the permission to do that?
SPEAKER_04:So that's a great point. And maybe that's step number one. How do we go about in a relationship even bringing that topic up? When you're when you're working with couples, let's say, how do you begin to develop a pattern within them where it's okay to have those conversations if that's not been a pattern of their journey?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that for therapy to be effective. I mean, now there is some expectation in what you said, expectation of of accountability when it comes to therapy, but it's may not be at the forefront of a lot of clients. It's like as you develop rapport, you develop you have a sense of what you can push back on and what you can't. So the rapport building aspect is essential. Now, there is an expectation that you're going to have something constructive to say or feedback that you're going to give them about how they're being experienced. And personal lives, yeah, that's always a delicate part. It's like, okay, is your friendship strong enough and have you agreed that we can give pushback as to how you're experiencing each other? In family dynamics, if there's one dominating personality and you want to challenge that style of personality, it's almost like you have to be okay if it goes off the rails, or if it doesn't, if you have the commitment to do that. But it comes down to the relationship in large part. It's like, do I want to trust the relationship enough to do that? Or am I modeling that from others? Like, can am I, do I allow people to challenge me? So there's a lot of back and forth in that in that sense. But yeah, especially we just come through the holiday times and a lot of families will experience personality types that they may struggle with. And then do you know mess up all the holidays by trying to challenge someone's style? Yeah, that's a that's a really delicate place to go. I would start to reiterate what I said, I would start initially by trying to clarify the boundaries of any relationship and say, is that is that a part of what we want to do? A lot of times we'll tease and we'll use humor and family dynamics to kind of point out things, but oftentimes we don't take that to a more serious level to really investigate how you're experiencing each other. That can be very useful, but it can also also be very delicate as far as how individuals respond to that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Teasing can be a defense mechanism. Like I don't know how to really say this, so I'm defensive. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Sarcasm, anything like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm guessing you probably do this, but if not, tell me what you do instead. When I'm working with clients, I can't think of a time where I haven't done this, that in the opening session with them, there's a clarifying of objectives, like what is it you want to accomplish? Why are you here? Fill me in on what you'd like to see as uh a result of our time together. And in doing that, when I hear the objectives that they have, I usually have a response that says, now in order to do that, I'm gonna have to ask some questions. We're gonna go down some pathways. And it begins to kind of pave the way for those kinds of conversations. And I I wonder, I don't wonder. I I believe that relationships that we have, sometimes the way by which you bridge the privilege of speaking into conversations is to ask some questions about what are we trying to accomplish in this relationship, or where are we going with this? And how could we go about having conversations of things that might keep us from getting there? And I think that's true in work relationships, certainly in marriage relationships. And when you chart a course, part of charting the course is, well, there are only a certain number of pathways that get us there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think if more families or family dynamics are friends or whatever had a component to it, what you're describing, I think, is basically I'm curious enough to want to know how you think the way you think. So then I spend time asking questions in the interaction as opposed to imposing my thoughts or feelings about how I'm experiencing you. It really shifts from the old adage, do you speak to to understand or to be understood? If we take that approach to family dynamics and say, that's interesting that you think that. Tell me more about that. Now, does that sound like a therapist on some level? Yes. But it can also be a way, it could be a way to answer the first person's question, which is basically, how do you go about speaking into someone's life? Well, the best way to do it is ask questions. And then really watch how defensive you become or how passionate you become in response, because that will tell you more about yourself.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's a great point. You've talked in a previous episode about being comfortable with another person not thinking the way you think. And that one of the kind of approaches that you take sometimes is to just speak the other side of the equation, whether you believe it or not, try to try and expand somebody's inflexible thinking, which is a great approach. It's a very therapeutic approach. Do you think that that works in relationships?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it works if you want to argue. If you don't really want that relationship, exactly. You want to move on to another friend, absolutely use that style. Yeah. No, it's like it's like uh you have to be careful that you're not just being oppositional for oppositional sake. But to try to be more appropriate, you would say, have you thought about it this way? If you want to do that. But that's what's happening in the last five years. It's like people just start arguing and they get passionate about their views as opposed to really listening to each other. Now, again, I I'm trying to clarify what the question really is trying to get at. It may really be if you experience someone that has a very challenging personality that you find abrasive. It goes back to another one of our conversations. Is there something in you that's getting triggered because you have the same trait? Oh, yes, yes, yes. Are are denying it. So you have to clarify that part of it. On the other hand, if it's just someone who's just abrasive or he's control they're controlling, or they just need to their way, it's like, yeah, it could be to the point it's so toxic that they aren't open to that kind of feedback. And so then you have to decide what you want to do with that relationship.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I don't want to miss here. I think there you just identified two very distinct, but both very important, components to this. The first is that notion of if I keep getting triggered, what are what is it that keeps triggering me? And the corollary to that is if I keep attracting certain types of people into my life that lead to that triggering, what is what is it that I'm not aware of within that keeps drawing the universe keeps drawing those kinds of people to me that needs to be brought into consciousness? So that's like part one. That's a big part. Yeah. That's a big part. So then the second part is as awareness levels increase and you're seeing what triggers you, but you also feel like that the person that you are in whatever relationship is, has a side to them that makes relationship difficult, finding the way that is both self-aware and not condemning to enter into the conversation of why something feels abrasive or why something feels incongruent, or the ability to bring it up with another person to have a conversation that doesn't raise everybody's defenses all at once. And that that's a real delicate dance.
SPEAKER_00:It is very delicate. And the cla the classic way that the therapy would a therapist would talk about it, or a therapy guy or person or whatever, they would say basically I statements as opposed to you statements. So, you know, you you're just obnoxious is one way of doing it.
SPEAKER_04:And that would be a you statement.
SPEAKER_00:That's the first word you. Yes, it would be a you statement. As opposed to I experiencing you as being obnoxious.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, no, no. That is not an statement. That's that's another you statement.
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, so basically, again, it's like you I know people are gonna that are listening and are gonna think, well, you're a therapist and and you think that way. But on the on the other hand, it's like, do I really want the relationship? So if I do, I would say, can I share with you how I experience you? If you really want to challenge the relationship and really want to see if you can have a conversation with that person, that's probably the best way to do it. Now, that that sounds, you know, therapized and all the other stuff, but at least it could l let you know where the other person's coming from.
SPEAKER_04:I just need to write down in words I want to use in the future that I've never used before, therapized. Absolutely. I like that one.
SPEAKER_00:I've I've been therapy. Well, a lot of a lot of spouses would say, I've been therap, my my my wife or my husband's therapizing me. Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, okay, before we leave this, I I want to just help a little bit more with the framing of that in a setting where it's not already inflamed with energy of conflict or problems when there seems to be a moment where conversation is amenable to both parties. A question along the line of, would it be okay if I tell you how I experience you?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's uh that'd be great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I also sometimes demands the person is asking that question, they have to be pretty grounded and and aware of their own triggers. Because that's that's a kind of I'm I'm watching myself function on some level. I'm not as engaged. I'm really trying to have a conversation that's that's most people don't have. I mean, to be honest, I don't think they do. Yeah. I think that's that's the idea of the podcast, is trying to push people to a place of more groundedness so they don't get triggered as often.
SPEAKER_04:And and you probably will run into problems if then the next question you ask is I experience you as a jerk. It it has to be couched in in terms that they can hear.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:And often with an example. So when you respond to me in this particular way, my defenses go up because it feels like very inflexible thinking. So it acknowledges what happens inside of me. It doesn't say that it is inflexible thinking. It's just that's how I experience it in those moments, which allows the other person a little more leeway to not feel attacked.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah. And the other thing that that that does, it begins to model the interaction you want by simply saying, I'm getting defensive. I find myself getting defensive. And that that can actually be a way for the other person to kind of match you if if they want to, as far as more self-awareness. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's fascinating. I mean, I I try to work hard on this, but I even I had it just did a trip with a family member the last uh last week, and I found myself uh getting annoyed at one point when this person was trying to tell me something that I thought I already knew, but they were explaining it in a different way, and they weren't listening. And I was just like getting myself annoyed, like, oh my word, uh, what are you doing? I just said this. So it's it's again in theory, it's easy to talk about this. In real life, we are susceptible to getting triggered in in ways that are the challenges.
SPEAKER_04:So you may use this, I don't know, but this is uh an exercise I use with couples very often. I typically use it while they're in front of me so that I can help navigate it if it is difficult. But then I often encourage them to do it once or twice before we meet again. And the exercise is pretty simple. It's an active listening exercise, and it starts off with giving positive feedback to one another, and it goes in the form of this prompt. Here's something you do that I like and I wish you'd keep doing or do more of it. And I had the other person not engage in a conversation, but simply respond with active listening that says, here's what I heard you say. And that's all. They don't try and react or add, they just make sure that they've heard well and the other person feels like they've been hurt. Both people then have an opportunity to do this once or twice of here's something you do that I like, and I hope you keep doing it. I think that actually is also something that can be done in the workplace here. That's great.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's absolutely true. I mean, that that's a great point because basically it's clarification. Yeah. And everybody would do much better if they would just clarify what they thought they heard. Yeah. And that just takes again, that takes presence of mind. Back again, talking about how do we continue to develop a presence of mind that we're absolutely engaged in the moment and not in our inner thinking about what's going to happen in the moment. Moment, what did happen in the moment, but what's happening right now in this moment? It's it's this mindfulness, is all those things that the last 20 years in my field we've really tried to try to teach and help people see. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:The second part of that exercise is the more difficult part. And sometimes they need help in figuring out how you frame what you say. But the second part is here's something that you do that I wish you did less of, or maybe not at all. And it kind of opens up the door to giving feedback that is may not come across quite as positively. But when I help people say, let's say you have a partner who is always putting themselves down. Maybe that's what you wish they did less of. So you're not critiquing them in terms of their personality, but you're saying one of the things I wish you did less of was you often direct humor at yourself and minimize yourself. I wish you did less of that or not at all. And then have the person repeat back what have you heard. So there are all kinds of things that you can do. And if one of those, as this listener has asked, is inflexible thinking, to phrase it in such a way that says, one of the things I wish you did less of was when I offer an opinion, it feels like you pretty quickly minimize it. And I wish you did less of that, or not at all. And again, the first time it's nice for you to be there so you can moderate that a little bit and help them. Yeah, but if they develop a pattern, they can use it then use that on their own. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. No, it's that's that's a great way of reframing it. But it it is again back to your fray, it's a delicate dance for all of that. Oh, yeah. Because you're yeah. You're basically challenging people on their stuff, and if they're defensive, they'll challenge you on your stuff, and then you'll argue.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. I've had couples come back and say, yeah, that second half, we're struggling with that. That didn't go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's like it's like with one of my one of my family members, they tend to minimize themselves. And I'll say, you know, you you really do, you know, minimize yourself. And they'll say, Yeah, I know I probably got self-esteem issues, and they just dismiss it rather than it in uh understanding the impact it has. And they're, you know, kind of set in their ways and older anyway, but uh that could certainly affect it.
SPEAKER_04:I think one of the great outcomes is if somebody does struggle with either part of that, like here's something you do that I like, and I hope you do it more, keep doing it or do more of. I've had some people that have struggled to come up with that kind of positive information. Absolutely. Yeah. And and either side of this exercise, it's great to explore then why is this so difficult for you? Why is it so difficult to see good things in yourself, good things in others? Let's talk through that family of origin or wherever else that comes from.
SPEAKER_00:And again, that that that opens opens up a whole other dynamic because so much of the time they've defined themselves by that trait, and to let go of that is a big deal.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So if I'm naturally self-critical, it's my definition, you challenge me on it, it's a natural way for me to be. And again, define myself that way, it's it's a big deal to let go of that. Because they can't they have a hard time seeing the good sides of themselves at times. They're more comfortable seeing the downside.
SPEAKER_04:And maybe this is too involved as a coach or uh for a therapist, but sometimes there is this feeling within me of agony when I when I hear somebody finding it's so difficult to view themselves on a positive way.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:It just kind of tears inwardly. I have to take care of my own stuff in that moment, but stay fully present. But yeah, yeah, that just hurts. Okay. Let me let me tackle one more question for us during this time span. And this has to do with a comment you made a number of weeks ago that talked about the formation of personality and personality forming, uh, beginning to clearly be formed by age five, and certainly some components form even before that, but we begin to see it form in particular ways. And the question coming from a parent about things that a parent can do that help nurture a healthy integration, there's probably going to be a natural tendency, no matter what we do, for a child to migrate to one of the four kind of quadrants of the STIR paradigm that we use, the stabilizer, the transformer, the responder, the initiator. But if a parent is really wanting to do as best they can healthy parenting, what are some of the things that they can do to help that child feel comfortable in their own skin, for one, but also to work toward an openness to have an integrated future if possible.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I mean that that's again, my bias in working with parents and families has always been the number one job, well, I mean, apart from uh, you know, feeding and clothing is to really help a child manage their emotions. And so as you do that, you're you have to be kind of aware of your own, because you'll get triggered by your kids' emotions. And then to validate the child, no matter what age, is an important first step. You validate, and then you actually use all the quadrants. So they need containment at times, they need nurturing at times, they need for you to distract and think outside the box and be the transformer, and they need you to bring order to things. So, I mean, there's you use all of them when you interact managing a kid's emotions from that perspective. So, in other words, if if a child is throwing a fit, he needs to be contained. So that's stabilizing energy. How do you bring order to things? Well, the way you do that, you may need to use a transformer to distract from what's happening in the moment. And you'll be and you'll have to use the responder to kind of stay present as much as you can, again, without being triggered yourself. And then the final one is when you redirect, you set a goal for the kid to ship their energy. So, really, you be more familiar you become with all the different quadrants when you talk about managing a child's emotions, that's really how you do it. And some obviously some children are more naturally affected that or approachable that way. And some parents are limited because of their own lack of self-awareness.
SPEAKER_04:So really the first step in that creative parenting and engaged parenting is to become self-aware, to know where you fall, what your natural tendencies are, and what maybe your kind of weaknesses or biases are in regard to personality styles.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell And to be very realistic, at some point, if the child is triggering you, they're probably a lot like you. So typically the other parent probably needs to step in and and do the parenting.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we could move on quickly, but I don't want to.
SPEAKER_00:That's a lot of there's a lot of dynamics to that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. But but just to help parents not feel so guilty about some of the things that they face in parenting, I just want to say once again that your comment, if a child often triggers you, there is a strong likelihood that they have some characteristics that are just like you. And it's your lack of self-awareness that sometimes is getting triggered because you don't see those similarities or you're seeing the extreme of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And your spouse will point out, well, they're just being just like you. And that's that goes over great. Yeah, not usually. But but if you can hear it, that's the that's the growth of being in a relationship, is that they'll give you feedback and pushback that makes you better. Uh kids, you know, sometimes couples do great until they have children because the children will bring out the natural differences that you kind of overlook or or love through, which is a a a great concept in some ways, is to just love through them in the sense that there are always going to be traits that upset us and trigger us that are legitimate. And we have to kind of work around them in some ways and love love past them when they don't really say anything about you. They just your partner has a trait that is difficult. And it's not necessarily always about something inside of the individual. So there's a lot to this as far as how the effects of parenting. It's a great question. Everybody wants to raise really healthy kids, and I think the way you do that is is to work consistently on being healthy yourself, consistently on being healthy yourself. I just repeated myself. I apologize, but I screwed up that one word. So thank you.
SPEAKER_04:That is a great description, even kind of a summary that in acknowledging that children change the dynamic of marriage relationships just because they expose things that you have kind of contained by the way you've handled the relationship over the years.
SPEAKER_00:And almost always they'll say, and then we had kids.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and again, the kids, the more the the the more extreme the the couple is as far as their own personal approach to life, their personalities, the more likely the kids are going to bring out those differences. And so that that's why it becomes more stressful because you you kind of acted as if you weren't fully aware of how different you were as a couple until the kids come along. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Is it also fair to say that just developmental psychology should prepare us for the fact that what works well with our five-year-old is going to shift when they hit junior high age or high school age.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And you still and they make it even more challenging to validate their feelings. To validate their feelings. Yes. Uh, because they're having their own and they don't care if you're validating them or not. Especially as they move into younger adolescents and teen years, their whole job seems to be to really push back and challenge. And again, to make the system better and healthier. The healthiest family, the healthiest families are able to really uh examine how they affect each other and be open about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's probably a that's probably a whole podcast just trying to sort out uh the health a healthy family, which is an oxymoron in some ways.
SPEAKER_04:That's a great point. The shift that takes place when children begin to individuate. And individuation is probably taking place through most of their journey, but there comes a time where they really push against the family system. And overall, that's a necessity. It's essential for their own growth. And to hit that stage, not expecting it, like you've had this great relationship all along, and all of a sudden there are things that they're not sharing with me anymore, and we're not having the same conversations. And the from my perspective, it is fantastic. Wow, this is that wonderful stage, but they don't receive it often as being fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:Not at all. And parents get defensive, they feel hurt, they feel rejected, all these things because they've been lulled into a false sense that the child is going to be their friend forever. And they go through this phase where, no, they they define themselves outside of the s family system oftentimes, and it's very threatening. And then you have the other extreme where the kids are so comfortable and and so integrated that the family seems to just to hang together all the way through adolescence and even to young adulthood. And those families you kind of compare and think, man, what do they what do they do really well? Well, my guess is from an early age, they validated those kids' emotions and their desires really well. So but there's no there's no specific perfect formula in any of this.
SPEAKER_04:One last piece of this, though, that came from the listener was the question of once kids reach school age and they're entering into a system where there is kind of a sense of um maybe competition grades, whether you make the team or not, whether you get first chair or second chair in the band, all of these things that have kind of a, from the listener's perspective, in a initiator perspective to them that that draws out those kids that have strong initiating energy and leaves behind some kids that maybe don't have that at all. So as a parent who doesn't, in this case, doesn't want to take them out of school systems, believes in the school system, but recognizes that as kind of a bias of the system, what do you do as a parent to try and keep your kid healthy and nurtured in situations?
SPEAKER_00:Many different directions you can go with that, but but for this uh conversation, let's let's say your kid initiates, wants to play a particular sport, and they're okay at it. But then as they as they age through it, they're not as good, they aren't keeping up, but they think that they can, and they think that they want to. And then at what point does a parent really have a hard conversation with their kids basically saying, you know, your gifts are over here, you're not as gifted in this area, what do we need to do with this? Well, again, the personality of the child may be so initiating and so need to be in charge that they don't want to see it. And so that's where the validation piece and just the constant talking about without discouraging the child, pointing out the things that they do really well. But if they want to do one thing really well that they don't do really well, that's a that's a really, really difficult conversation to have. It's like telling your kid the truth rather than continuing to foster the idea that they're going to be, they're gonna be in the NBA sometime. Well, no, you're four foot two, probably not. I mean, some of those some of those things are realistic enough to think, okay, that's not going to happen. But but sometimes a kid is, you know, they're 5'10 or 5'9 and they're really good, but that the next level they don't get to, and they can become discouraged and fall back into a pretty negative pattern of behavior. So a lot of that uh there's so many different dynamics as far as how to navigate that, that it's it uh we're time-limited probably in being able to do that. Those are great questions. It's trying to be again, you're trying to be present, trying to validate their strengths and be as honest about them as you can. If you've done that from early ages, it makes those adolescent years a little bit more tenable, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I also think as you work to try and understand your child, you may find out that their strong desire to try out for teams or be part of teams and they're not really good in that area is because they are very relational oriented and they love the group or the kids that are there or the friends that are there. And they may not be good. And if that is what they're looking for, sometimes you just nurture that and say, oh, great. I that's great. You realize they are realistic that they're never gonna make these mistakes.
SPEAKER_00:That's a that's a great point.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I also think that it's applicable to the work environment where a supervisor has employees that go, Yeah, you're not good at that. So you have other talents and skills. So these principles apply at many different levels.
SPEAKER_00:Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah, I remember uh a year a hundred years ago, the former CEO of General Electric, he wrote a book, this is probably 30 years ago. Yeah, basically said the best thing I can do for a person is telling the truth.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that may be that may be telling you're not good at this. It's because that releases them to go and find something that they're good at. But, you know. So I that's a that's the thing about the culture at large. We could probably spend a whole session on just on the role of accountability and how we've gotten away from really a healthy accountability for each other as to how we're being experienced. And our culture basically embraces it and says, hey, go for it, whatever, whatever you're feeling, let's do that. And I think it's very detrimental to really a healthy, balanced life when we when we throw accountability out the out the window for our emotions, for our feelings, or whatever. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's actually a great place to bring this to an end. We're gonna dig into a few more questions that our listeners have had. And if you have a question, I hope you to go to one of our websites and just let us know what your question is. We'll see if we can cover it. It's been wonderful to be with you, Jim. Thank you. Thank you, Dee. Talk to you soon. Yep. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, no, that's good stuff.