S1E17 Integration Over Perfection: Using Every Part Of You

We explore the STIR framework and answer a listener’s question about whether the goal is to stand in the center of all four styles, or to use each style wisely. We map how to grow in a resistant environment, when leaving is healthy, and how to set boundaries without turning conflict into a scorecard.

• STIR overview and the four styles
• Standing in the middle versus using what you need when you need it
• Opposites attract and the strain of those differences
• Finding your natural spot by noticing who annoys or attracts you
• Borrowing other styles without abandoning your base
• Growing when family systems resist change
• Stay or leave decisions and the role of likability
• Boundaries that are clean, not covert demands
• Taking conflict less personally and naming projections

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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. I'm Dee Kelly and I'm your co-host along here with Jim Shale. Good to have you here, Jim. Good morning, Dee. How are you? Doing great. We've been spending a few episodes answering some of the questions that some of our listeners have sent in. Love it. Primarily just one listener. We're thankful for that.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

We we are. One listener with lots of personalities.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

But I will say that one of the questions that came in, we've had a few episodes where we've referenced our listener, Larry, and the question was, who is Larry? So probably important to clarify that Larry is an older brother of yours that has gone with us, or maybe I should say I've gone with the two of you on some four-wheel trail riding trips. And sometimes Larry sits in the back and listens to us kind of do what we do on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

So and as he says, he finds it interesting at times. So but I'm not sure. I I'm not sure if he's listened to our podcast or not at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

So since he was our first audience.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yes, absolutely. We need to, you know. Kind of pay tribute to him. Appreciate that, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yeah. Well, here's one of the questions that came in, and I think it's a good one. We've talked about these four personality styles, and we've referenced the acronym STIR to represent the stabilizer personality style, the transformer, excuse me, the initiator and uh the responder. And the person asked, they placed it in kind of a visual. They said, if I had this diagram on the ground kind of like a four-square, is that what you're talking about, where there are these different personality styles laid out? But the question that goes with that is, is our goal to eventually have the lines erased between the four quadrants? Well, that's a great question. Yeah. So that they all kind of blend together, if that's even possible. Or is it to stand in the middle? And is that even possible to stand in the middle of all four? And so I think they were asking, using that visual, what is it that a person is trying to accomplish when they learn about this and are trying to put it into practice? So let's talk a little bit about that, because it's a great question. It is a good question.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Oh, I mean, the larger question that popped in was like, what's the greater goal of living? It's like what's the is it is it to be, you know, the cliche phrase your best self? Well, what does that mean? Well, using our framework, your best self may include the ability to really not not neurotically need people, but to really want people because you're aware of your own, your own needs, your own, your own dynamics enough to be able to own that. So for me, it really does come down to the self-discovery of saying, okay, as best I can understand who I am and what do I need, what am I projecting, what you know, all of those kind of dynamics and understanding it better so I can say, okay, I can be really helpful in this situation, or I don't need to be helpful here, just to be much more aware of the the the inner dynamics of of of interacting with humans in that sense. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

I think that the visual that the listener describes. I think the visual is great because that's I think it's an appropriate visual of what we are talking about. But if I were to play that out in kind of a scenario, I imagine that let's use Transformers as an example. If they are in this upper right quadrant, there is part of that quadrant that is closer to the center, and there's part of that quadrant that is all the way out at the far extreme point of that quadrant. And the reason I say that is because I think that there are transformers who fall in different places on this graph or spectrum. And so somebody who's out on that far corner just raised awareness that they are kind of the transformer to the extreme, helps them begin to see how then they might relate with others. But to imagine them going to the opposite extreme as a stabilizer probably would create such discomfort and incongruence that that's not a realistic goal for some who would be in that place as a transformer. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's like uh the more different a couple is, the harder it is to integrate their relationship. I mean, in the beginning, it it's natural because you know, opposites attract and and and that all that. But dynamically, if if I really am a transformer and uh and the other person's really a stabilizer, if you don't appreciate those differences and you expect the other person to move more towards you, yeah, which is what you're basically talking about, yeah, that's that's going to be a really interesting struggle. Yeah. I do think to your point, it's important to identify naturally how ex how where you position yourself.

unknown 5:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

So if I if I like to think that I'm not an extreme transformer, to use your example, and I keep thinking that I bring order to things, and my that my partner never, never sees that, well then I'm in some kind of suspended reality when it comes to my own my own stuff. That's why being more realistic in in asking people how do you perceive me, that partner would probably say, Well, yeah, you you don't you don't bring order to anything. You just live by your wits. No, I don't. And then you start the argument. And that's why I always use the the analogy of look who you're attracted to. You're in a relationship with someone who's a strong stabilizer. That alone tells you you're really extreme in that area.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, that is a great that's a like if you're kind of following the clues of who you are. Yes. Paying attention, paying attention to the people that you're attracted to or that just show up in your life. Or that know, or that annoy you. That's probably even a better one. And and probably important for those who are at an extreme because they will be more annoyed than people that are closer to the center of sorts. You talk about maybe more difficult if you are paired up in relationship with somebody who is very, very different than you. But I also find that somebody who's willing to explore, if they have somebody close to them who is a significant contrast to who they are, they begin to catch on to the model more rapidly. And it's like an aha moment when you go, oh, that's why we keep coming to this impasse, or that's why we keep having this stress in our marriage. Sometimes the more subtle conflicts uh are a little more nuanced in those differences. And it takes a person a while to kind of appreciate the differences and why they're there.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Oh, yeah. No, you're you're being very kind.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Take it deeper.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah. Well, in the sense that, you know, the way you framed it a couple seconds ago when you said, you know, you get to a place where, oh, those people are really, really trying to teach me something. Yeah, you have to be you have to you have to be at a place where you really are ready to hear that because you're seeing it yourself in some ways. Because if not, you think they're trying to change you or defeat you or whatever. But if you have a hint that that person keeps showing up in my life, you already are at a a pretty evolved place to notice that. Lots of times you don't have that thought. You're just like, be these people keep telling it just annoy me. That's a that's usually the most common way. It's like I'm just annoyed by these people. That's the transition is to realize, well, they probably have a trait that you're not seeing in yourself. Yeah. But to get it Oh, that's so hard to hear. It is, because you're pretty optimistic by nature, and so you're gonna see that more easily than others would.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

So let's go back to the question. For somebody who is really working on this self-awareness, and they're by out not only their own opinion, but outside opinions, they're being pretty honest about themselves, pretty realistic. Is the goal different for everyone? Like it it's it's it's certainly not the goal for everyone to land in the center of all of this, if that's even possible. But it certainly is a goal to tap into these different energies we have within us that are less developed than what our primary style is, so that when the situation or circumstance is right, we can access that and do things we never thought possible because we've accessed that part of us. I'm thinking of a couple of listeners whose journey has led them to identify themselves in a particular quadrant. And if I'm using that imagery of like a four-square on the on the ground and where it would be that they would want to stand, I feel like that when I'm visualizing that for people with whom I work, it is to move closer to the center to appreciate the other personality styles that they can access, like they can reach out and draw on that energy, but they are also living into kind of a natural bent that they have. So if there is someone that is a true nurturer, I I don't know that I've ever seen somebody change from being a nurturer to being something else as a primary style because it's so woven into that characteristic, that that personality. But I have seen somebody who's a nurturer that begins to use their initiating energy to take care of themselves, begins to step out of the kind of the static energy and do things that are more dynamic, like the transformer, or tap into the organizational side, even though that's a more natural fit for a responder, but to do it with a different intent, like more of a social justice intent or something like that. So I have seen that kind of shift taken place, but I'm trying to think of individuals or myself, have I ever shifted and for a period of my life actually been a different style. And I don't think that once that personality is formed, that you actually step into a different quadrant and lead a different style.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Aaron Ross Powell No, I don't think you do that, but I do think that you step in different quadrants and use the energies in connection with others. For a season. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Like I if I'm a responder, I can step into bringing order to somebody because I'm taking care of them. So I can go in and help someone clean up their house or do whatever because my responder is caring for them, but it really is accessing the stabilizer. And so I think that's where, again, another framework for people to identify the ability to do that is to see them when they use their natural traits in helping someone else, like a transformer who goes in and helps someone think outside the box. Okay, they're accessing their natural energy, but they're also helping the other person access the transformer energy in them.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

And and they, in many ways, they do it as a caregiver responder. They're caring for the individual.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

I think the uh the thing that I I want to impress is that using all these dynamics that you have day to day in your life, the more you become conscious of this framework, the easier it is to see how you're using them in different ways that you don't realize you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Okay, so I'm going to shift just a little bit to another question, but it fits very closely. It's in the same ballpark. In this journey of integration and self-awareness, it seems like it would be very doable in a vacuum. From this is what the question, how the question came to me. Very doable in a vacuum. But if you're an environment that's not conducive to health itself, if you're an environment that's kind of has blockages to integration because the people in your, let's say your family system, or it could be a work environment as well, but are pretty set in their patterns. How do you put into practice some of these things when the environment is not particularly conducive to integration? And my initial response to that is that's probably the situation for many people when they come to therapy or coaching, is that they're struggling with what their environment is like. Yeah, I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

No, you you're right. That's that is the challenge. A lot of people will come in and they'll describe a partner who have certain traits and they're they're very exasperated by it all. And they don't they don't want to separate or leave that relationship. They want to learn how to live with it. And the simple, the the really casual answer would be what we talked about, I think, in one of the episodes is it's like if you're dealing with someone who has really strong narcissistic traits, you have to become more narcissistic.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

So take care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah, to take care of yourself. So really it is it it is trying to detach without detaching. So I I begin to take care of myself. I I go to concerts by myself, I I do these things by myself, not because I'm trying to make a mess, give a message or I'm upset, just because I I really want to share my life with this person, but they're really difficult and they don't want to do it, we don't have common interests, and I keep I keep wanting that. So then you really have to internalize and go, okay, I don't what's your goal? I mean, if you don't want to separate the relationship and you want to stay in it, yeah, then you have to access a lot of these different energies.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Great description. Let's go back to the other approach, and that is leaving the relationship. Is that okay? Or is that just avoidant? That was literally the question that came in with this person. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

That clarify uh you have to clarify what your goal is. If you really are done with a relationship, no matter what kind of dance we try to teach people to do with these expressions, you're still going to be frustrated. If if the likability factor is really kind of non-existent in the relationship, for me, the likability factor is crucial to being able to be motivated to do it. Because if you do it, you're just gonna res you create a ground where you just resent. Even though you could talk about it and say, I really want to do this, I don't want to separate, I don't want to mess up the family, I don't want the kids, whatever that that other part is, you have to be very conscious about that. And you can still work it. But if you're resenting and you're working so hard, I mean lots of people come in and say, I work so hard at this, but it doesn't make any difference. Well, they're still wanting an external change. So from that perspective, it's it, you know, it's an individual journey for everybody. It's like, what's the tipping point to where it's more challenging to stay than it is to leave? And it's a sobering place to be.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah. And part of that equation has to include an honest evaluation of where the other person is in that relationship. Are they invested in trying to make the relationship healthier? Are they even invested in staying? Has that separation already happened and you're just now realizing it? And what does that look like? So I I don't I I think the short answer is sometimes leaving is the right choice. And it's not avoidance.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'd say what it's the choice that makes the most sense given the dynamic. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

But let's say we do want to stay and we have in relationship, maybe it's a family system, some tensions between personality styles.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

You're talking about a like a committed relationship, or are you just talking about extended family dynamics that you may see people occasionally throughout the year or you live close to? Great question.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Let's say we're talking specifically about the nuclear family. So two parents, a couple of kids, and all kids, young kids. Let's say that they are junior high and senior high.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

And the presenting issue is it feels chaotic. We keep having these conflicts. And the person who is coming is willing to step into any kind of questions or discussion, but has not come in with the rest of the family. So there is this interaction on how then do I navigate my part in this? And so let's say it's one of the parents that's come in, it's not the teen. It's one of the parents. Some handles, some steps. Where do you begin with that?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

So the scenario is the parent that's coming, the parent that's coming in is living with someone who's willing to change change, but isn't coming to therapy or is it coming to the sessions? Yeah. Good. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

And why I guess my question is, why aren't they coming? Okay, I'm gonna have to make up something here because I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

Uh Well, that if if if I'm willing to if I'm uh if I'm willing, but not going not going to therapy, it's either I don't think it's I don't think it'll work, or I'm just giving lip service to the to the idea of change. And so, yeah, my partner's going to therapy and yeah, I'm willing to change. Yeah, go see what the guy says, or whatever, whatever that is. That's not that's not unusual, but it's not the norm. So I'd have to challenge the person that's coming to see me. Are you accurately reading the situation? Or is this person just kind of going along with it because they don't want to they don't want to be divorced or they don't want to lose the relationship? And and to the extent of how entrenched the other person's dysfunction is. Because usually if there's a person that's pretty dysfunctional, I'm dysfunctional in my response to them. So I'm going to therapy to try to learn how to handle this person who's dysfunctional because I become dysfunctional myself, because I've gone to the other extreme. So, regardless of what they do, I I have to live a different life. So then I set boundaries, I begin to speak up when I know something's not fair or not appropriate. Or the case in the case of kids, sometimes you have parenting different parenting styles, one's more permissive. And one's more rigid. And so you had that conflict. It's real I mean, the reason why it sounds difficult is. It's like you're trying to have a relationship with someone who says they're they want to do better, but the evidence would suggest that they they may not want to, so do you do all the hard work and then try not to resent the person who's not actively involved in it? I mean, I mean, the the the nice nice part of this theory is if I'm committed to being to change, and what I talked about, I think, you know, in in our lengthy season one, is that it's a heart change. If I literally don't need you to change, and I can live with you and accept you the way you are and truly do that, that's the only way the other person may change. So if I if I can really access all the expressions and I'm not living with an incredibly dysfunctional person, but they're they're okay and I like them, then as I shift to, you know what, I'm not gonna do your laundry anymore. You take care of your laundry, and then and they and they step up and do it. Or I say, you know what, I'm not gonna do the whatever it is. And and I don't, I'm not doing it because I'm mad at you, I'm not doing it because uh, you know, I I need you to be different. I just generally am starting to set better boundaries. And that person steps up, well, then you know, okay, they don't want to go to therapy, they don't want to talk to anybody, but they're gonna respond to you being healthier, a healthier you. That's very normal and very usual in some situations. So the person that's coming in, I'm I'm getting them to access all those different expressions and taking care of themselves, and they still like their partner. That's that's crucial. If, on the other hand, someone comes in and they're just at the end of it and they're just so frustrated and nothing ever works, it's hard number one to get them to take care of themselves and realize, okay, just do your thing, because if I do that, they're typically doing it in a kind of a vengeful way. They're not their their their heart's not necessarily as soft as it needs to be in some ways. I don't know if I'm making this clear enough, but it it all depends on the that's why one of my first questions is, do you guys still like each other? Do you still like this person? And that goes a long way in being able to say, okay, well then I just need to be able to say, if if he or she still likes me, then I say I'm not going to do your laundry anymore. They go, okay, that's cool, I can do my laundry. That begins to shift the the energy and it gives you more energy yourself because you're taking care of yourself. Yeah. That's a long, long expression, but I'm not sure I answered directly your question.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

But well, I think, yeah, if if I were to I'm not trying to oversimplify at all, because I think all of those components were essential, but but part of that is the decision that my next best step is to work toward my own health in the midst of the relationship and see how that plays out. If that plays out in a way that is likable and and tolerable, then I keep moving toward that next step.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Aaron Ross Powell My My 100,000 words turned into six. So yes, that would be that would be it.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

That's that was a good way to put it again. And so as a follow-up to that then, as I'm moving toward a healthier place, how do I enter into conflict differently? Like if if if there is like frequent conflict in a relationship, is there a a way by which I receive conflict and respond to conflict differently as it becoming more self-aware and healthier?

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Do I take it less personally? Is that how I know I'm moving toward health? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

That's the key ingredient. It's not personal. And when I make a choice and set a boundary, it's not personal either. The other person could feel that way. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

But even if they feel that way, I'm seeing if I'm attuned to it, I'm beginning to see the projection from the other person that I don't have to own because it's the other person's stuff. And it doesn't mean I'm mean or I yell at them for projecting. It's just that I don't receive it the same way. Yeah. Because I'm healthier.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Yes. Okay. Because I I'm setting we're so tempted to set limits for everybody else or set boundaries for everybody else, but not ourselves. And so where do I where do I end and you begin? And so the more I I get centered in that, the more I know I need to be here, I need to be there, the more likely it is that I'm not doing it to get even. I'm not mad at you. I'm just saying, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go to that that that work event. Um and you just are much more certain about your limits. And the whole thing is it's the attitude in your heart. Are you are you doing it because you're mad at the person or are you doing it because that's healthy for you? An introvert who finally stands up and says, I just can't go to that party. That holiday party, just I just can't do it. And the and the spouse is like very outgoing, and they go, I can't uh I can't believe you. Just go, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. No, I really can't go. It just drains my energy. That's where you start getting healthy. And then the other extrovert has to decide, okay, go to the party and say, Yeah, my wife, you know, she's an introvert, so she doesn't want to come to these parties anymore. Yeah. Because now it's entertainment value for the for the extrovert.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

And that's why it it can get that's why being conscious is so important, because then you begin to if you do it that way, you obviously you're not honoring your partner's introverted style. If you if you're honoring it, you go and say, no, it's she couldn't make it tonight.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah. Or something along the line of these things make her uncomfortable, and I understand that. That's great. Something that's just kind and honest about the actuality of the Trevor Burrus, if you can't if you gain the permission from the partner to do that. Aaron Powell Oh, good point. Good point.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah. So you're you're basically exposing them.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

And that should be their choice.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yes. Well, in an in an ideal world that you know I live in. We've covered a lot of questions. These are these are great questions that are just got so many different tentacles to them and dynamics that I'm sure we've we've left some things out. But the journey is really the stir concept is to just become as healthy as you can within yourself, not trying to get even, not trying to make a point, but just simply being healthy yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

And a good place to stop for this episode, but also to remind our listeners if you've got a question, don't hesitate to go to either one of our websites and we love the questions. Yeah. Send off a note to us. We'll jump back into this next episode next week. Jim, always great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Better to be with you. Yeah. See you, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, no, it's good stuff.