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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
S1E18 Midlife Without The Meltdown
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We take listener questions on how to “preempt” midlife turmoil, why flexible thinking beats rumination, and what healthy self-sufficiency looks like when you still need people. Along the way we use our four-quadrant model to reframe boundaries, create validation, and speak your partner’s language.
• difference between liking change and flexible thinking
• turning beliefs back into opinions to reopen options
• borrowing strengths across initiator, responder, transformer, stabilizer
• replacing negative what-ifs with creative what-ifs
• acting versus ruminating when consequences are inevitable
• reframing self-sufficiency as interdependence
• appreciating traits you once resisted in others
• communicating in the other person’s language and validating emotions
• holding boundaries with strong personalities without becoming them
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)
Okay, welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I'm your co-host, D. Kelly. I'm here with Jim Shale. We love to explore the inner landscape of personality, and we have been spending this season looking at a model of personality. Hopefully, you've listened enough that you have a working knowledge of that. And we've been taking some questions, people who have been curious about some of the things that have been said and were wanting us to go a little bit deeper. So hey, let's go deeper, D. Let's go deeper, D. Let's do that today.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for your affirmation of that, Jim. Well, no problem. I just want to acknowledge that I was here because you'd said that my co-host and I hadn't said anything, so I thought I would just express that. Let's go deeper.
SPEAKER_02:So sorry I didn't let you interject sooner. Thank you. Dig deeper with D. I like that. Yeah. I'm not sure we need you this episode, Jim. It was intended to be my episode, but sure. Okay, join in.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:We had an episode a couple weeks ago that was on midlife. It was midlife of vocation, midlife of relationships, midlife of your journey. And we discussed some of the things that individuals face during that midlife span, uh, the reevaluation that takes place. We had a listener who was interested in what it might be like for us to talk about those who are not yet to midlife in a relationship, in vocation, in their age, and want to do some things that raised awareness from an episode like that. But what are some of the practices you put in place to try and mediate the crisis that can occur at midlife? And so just a response, a comment or two, if you're having somebody that is just wanting to get healthier and kind of head off that. I'm not sure that you can stop it from coming. But what are some of the things that come to mind when somebody asks a question like that, Jim?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, my my casual initial response is along the lines, you can't be you can't be 40 when you're 30, you can't be 50 when you're 40. So sometimes life unfolds. The question uh seems to think, how can I anticipate the possibilities of the future and be prepared for them? And I think from my perspective, if you're going to be that proactive, you have to be pretty flexible in your in realizing that there's gonna come traumas in your life, there's gonna come unexpected things that are really going to challenge you. And so how can you prepare for those things? Well, uh one of the biggest hurdles is to realize that most people don't escape this world without something dramatic or trump dramatic happening to them. And that helps develop their approach in some ways, as far as, okay, how do I do I guess on what those might be? Or do I just kind of realize that, okay, things are going to happen. And do I have the flexibility in my makeup to really be able to adapt to it? Like if I know my one of my traits is I don't like change, how do I begin to realize, okay, that might be an important trait to work on? And so again, it comes back a little bit to self-awareness and knowing yourself really well. And that goes along with asking your partner for that, asking significant people in your life for their feedback to begin that process.
SPEAKER_02:So I think that's a great response. I'd love you to go a little bit deeper in something that you've talked about before, and you just briefly mentioned, and that's flexibility, but specifically flexible thinking. So I think that that that characteristic is different than whether you're comfortable or uncomfortable with change. You can have an approach to life where you kind of like things stable and are not always seeking change, but still be very flexible in your thinking.
SPEAKER_00:That's true. That's true.
SPEAKER_02:So I know that that's a real key issue when you're working with individuals or couples is flexible thinking. So how does that often come up in a session? W what are some of the cues that you see that cause you to say, I'm this is a good time to bring it up? And I know one of I'm gonna kind of set the stage for you, but sometimes I know what you do is when somebody has a strong opinion, you'll often articulate the opposite view of that argument. And I think that that's part of trying to develop a greater flexible thinking in an individual. Am I right? Or is that something else?
SPEAKER_00:It is. There's a a a couple strategies. One is if I sometimes I'll ask, what's the other what's the other view of that, of that thought that you have? Is there another view of that? And if they have a hard time with that, then I'll I'll perhaps introduce the idea that perhaps that's a belief and not an opinion. And so then you wrestle, you get them to wrestle with the idea that in reality it's an opinion, but it's moved into kind of a belief. And so then I challenge that and say, okay, let's examine that. Is that really a belief? I mean, can would you die for that or you know, put it in some dramatic terms to see, and lots of times they'll back up and say, well, I guess that maybe is an opinion. And then you kind of push them and say, okay, what would be the an opposite opinion of that? And so you're just basically trying to do an exercise to see how nimble they are to be able to identify other ways of thinking about something. Which again, in the context of your own life, from my perspective, it's crucial to be able to see different strategies to be able to address issues in your life. Whether it's your spouse, your partner, or a work situation, anything that's that's got you stuck, can you look at it from a different perspective, which would go back to probably the transformer energy of being open to new possibilities.
SPEAKER_02:So, yeah, back to that four quadrant model. If you are self-aware of your default style, one of the ways you increase flexible thinking is to consider what another aspect of your personality, another style, how that might change your response. So if I am a responder and I tend to be that nurturer and caregiver, what would it be like to be an initiator? I'm attracted to that, but usually I'm the caretaker for that. What's the perspective of the initiator in me? And just thinking that through will sometimes add to a flexible way of viewing the world and viewing myself, right?
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah. Plus, plus, to use that example, the if you initiate self-care, you would have to start focusing on taking care of yourself as opposed to others. And so the initiating aspect would be maybe I start I need to start working out or walking or exercising, something that I would always put off because I was tending to other people. That's how you would begin to think, okay, the initiator in me needs to do this. And so, yes, that's that's the flexibility to say, okay, what would that feel like? For for a lot of people that are natural responders, they probably would identify that as feeling selfish, putting themselves first. Because again, initiators typically can be viewed as selfish because they initiate things, they create change, and it's all about them. People on the outside that don't have that natural energy would critique them and basically say, see, it's all about them, when really they just have a natural way of being and hey, let's go do that. And and a lot of people would follow it. Other people would set back and criticize it, you know. Anytime you make a bold move, you've split the world in some ways.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, that's a good point. And whether it's the outer world or the inner world. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah. My latest example this week has been I helped a person, a good friend of mine, with her hot water heater. And they there's a rod that you put in a hot water heater to keep it from corroding.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:And so I said that probably needs to be replaced. But as usual, my transformer did not think it through, like I didn't hear it in my house when I didn't shut the water off. So, so I went to her house and I took that plug out and boy, water went everywhere. And of course, she ended up having it a new hot water heater. So, so I say that's probably too personal, but I say that to say you make a choice, things happen. And you end up with the consequences. So, in it using our quadrants of of expressions, my transformer just said, Yep, gotta be done, let's go do it. The stabilizer did not show up and say, Is the water turned off? Yeah. And that's my my natural my natural energy as a transformer where I don't often think think through the consequences of something.
SPEAKER_02:So I think that sometimes the ruminating over what could happen when you talk about midlife of a relationship or vocation, that sometimes that takes far more energy than just trying to move to a place of flexible thinking and whatever it is that comes, then you address it knowing that you have the resources to do that.
SPEAKER_00:The ruminating, excuse me to uh to interrupt a little bit, but the ruminating is actually a false sense of movement. If I if I ruminate inside my head, I can feel like I'm doing something about it, but I'm not really. So to your point, which is a great point, is that sometimes just make a decision and do it. And then realize there's gonna be a consequence. And you have no idea sometimes what it will be, no matter how hard you prepare for it. There's gonna be a consequence. And that's why a lot of people that that are stuck in the stabilizer have a fear of making a choice, because there's always a consequence. And they're usually they think it's gonna be a less than positive one.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah. Sometimes we say this is true about every personality style, but maybe more so with the stabilizer, that the dysfunction you know is far more appealing than the possibility of health that has the unknown. That's so true. And so we're back to that adage about when stress levels go up, you retreat to that which is most familiar, no matter how dysfunctional it is, because it's known. You you know the quantity. There are so many things that can happen. And let's just use the midlife of a relationship. Early on in the relationship, I mean, it's just glorious because there's attraction, there's romance, there not all the issues of life have settled in that can cause problems within a relationship. It's really difficult to think ahead and not be catastrophizing. I mean, it's almost as if that's what catastrophizing is, is overthinking what could happen in the relationship, but instead to take the posture of just enough realism that says, I know this is one of those wonderful phases. I'm going to enjoy it, and I have enough flexible thinking that when the difficult times come, do our best to think through and live through what takes place. So part of it is realistically living in the moment, enjoying the moment now, but being realistic about it.
SPEAKER_00:One of the fascinating things. I just lost my train of thought. So it wasn't that fascinating. Apologize. I completely uh refresh refresh my memory on what you were saying because I had a really good thought. We're talking about personality.
SPEAKER_02:And what it feels like to be older and forget things.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think we have a live example of that right now. I had a I had a thought and it zoomed right out of my right out of my head.
SPEAKER_02:We don't need to go back to it, but we were talking about living in the moment and enjoying, but also being realistic about what's coming.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, no, no. Thank you. You reminded me. Lots of times the the what-ifs, what ifs to the negative creates anxiety. But what ifs to the positive creates new worlds. So it really is how you use your what-ifs. And yes, the the typical thing is what ifs, what if this happens? What if this happens? We catastrophize rather than what if it works out? Why do we go to the negative? Well, it's probably more protective. But to your point, the flexibility of thinking is, well, what if it works out? What if we can handle it? What if the tire goes flat in the middle of the of a trail and we have no spare? We'll just sit in the desert and die. No, we'll figure it out. Yeah, we'll figure it out. So I think that's really an important uh way to navigate flexible thinking is to say, do you use your what-ifs to catastrophize or to create a new world?
SPEAKER_02:I really, really like that. I would add one last piece to the discussion. And that is part of being realistic is saying, I won't be surprised if there comes a time when this job isn't as satisfying. I won't be surprised if we hit a rough spot in our relationship.
SPEAKER_00:That's addressing the the original question. That's great. Because that's exactly how you do it. It's like, can I stay adaptable and realize that it life never turns out like we think most of the time? I shouldn't say never and then most of the time together, but it seems like it seems like life really doesn't turn out like we think if if we have those thoughts. So that's a great way of summing it up.
SPEAKER_02:And it may lead me to new places that I'd never experienced before that will take me by surprise in a great way. You we talked quite a bit in that episode about the midlife of vocation, some of the difficulties that you face in that phase. But it's also true that some of those struggles lead to new places vocationally that you would have never expected, new opportunities or new decisions that you have to make to make sense of your journey. So yeah, great question from listener. Um I think we have time for another one if we could. And that is a listener called in or yeah, called in and asked about self-sufficiency. Is health self-sufficiency? And this person uh thinks that the answer to that is no. Um and so followed it with if not, what is it like to need others in a healthy way, an integrated way? So acknowledging that you really do need others in your life. And I know there are some people who are incredibly independent, but what does that look like in a healthy way? I I would be interested in what your thoughts are. Well, one of the things is that I'm not sure that the notion of self-sufficiency is independent of needing or desiring or wanting interactions with others and needing things from others. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00:It's kind of like interdependent. Yeah, it's kind of like interdependency or dependency.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron Powell Oh, yeah, that is a good language to use. I think if we're looking at self-sufficiency as not needing anyone else.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, that's it'd be interesting to how how they're defin def defining self-sufficiency. Because yeah, it doesn't mean you're excluding everybody, but it could. It's like self-sufficiency, is I live on an island and don't need anybody. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Off off the grid and off the grid.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I don't know that that's self-sufficiency. I think that's probably un to her to this person's point, probably unhealthy. But then how do you the word need is the interesting part of that. It's like, what's it feel like to be self-sufficient and need someone? Well, it would be like, I need I I'm moving and I can't do it by myself. I need help. I need others to help me. Now that's a terrible, terrible example, probably, because a lot of people get hit up for for being helping people move and then they never talk to them again. So but you know, the point of including other people in my life, because I need the socialization, I need the I need the contact, the connections. Yeah, those are those are really important. And that that's not that's again interdependencies. There's there's a sense that we need each other. Or we want each other, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's probably it'd be wonderful if we had this person on the line or included right now, because I'm gonna have to interpret. But let me add to where I think this comes from. We spent a great deal of time, maybe sprinkled throughout all of the episodes, where we talk about externalizing or projecting things that are within us that are out of balance or in need of being addressed. And so we're attracted to somebody in a relationship that embodies some of the things in us that are undeveloped. So we have promoted that a movement toward health is to raise those things to consciousness and to develop that side of us so we're not dependent on a transformer to give us the energy to float on. Yes. Or if we're a transformer, we're not dependent upon a stabilizer to give us structure and insight. And so when we do move toward that healthier place, does it mean that we're self-sufficient and no longer need the other people in our life? Or does it mean that we have gotten to a place where we have far greater appreciation for that side of us, which leads to greater appreciation for different perspectives that others bring into our life?
SPEAKER_00:That is excellent. That's exactly uh the gain of exactly what we're talking about. It's like when I when I really understand the effort it takes to be balanced and self-sufficient internally with who I am, and I'm able to take care of myself, I'm able to cook my own food, I'm able to do all those things that encompass those energies. I absolutely get to a place where I appreciate so much people that do that. And then I can choose to let them do it for me as well and be a part of my life in that way. Because I'm so much more likely to uh express the appreciation and and value it, which again is valuing yourself, but then you externalize it and you're more observant, you're just again, just more thoughtful about it. That's a great way of that's a great insight. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think it does feel like at some point we're We're doing this a formulation and you know, we're gonna like you said earlier, we're gonna go all live on an island or somewhere. No, it really is. It really is just being more gracious and appreciative of people that do those natural energies that's so hard for us sometimes to to express.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think one of the areas for me, uh we've talked about this a little bit, that the initiator for me has sometimes held a a weight of my pushback or frustration because of interactions with very dysfunctional initiators that of which then I've been kind of held the consequences of that. And so kind of resistant to that personality style. And I think one of the movements toward balance is to have much greater appreciation for what initiators bring to the world. So instead of that resistance, that pushback, I realize that there is an initiator within me that I need to tap into, otherwise, I'm not going to get things done that I need to tap into so that I can bring about some things in my life that I desire. And in so doing, it shifts my understanding grace toward and then appreciation of others who do that naturally. And it leads me to a posture of, oh, I actually not only need it in me, but need it in the world. So something that I vilify now becomes something that is valued. And so it doesn't make me more self-sufficient in the sense of completely independent. It makes me more self-sufficient in that I can tap into it in myself, but also have a greater appreciation of it in others when it comes naturally.
SPEAKER_00:Just like if uh, you know, 30 years ago, if someone, you know, would have said, turn the water off before you do that. I might have taken that as like, don't tell me what to do. Yeah. Yeah. And now you realize, oh, that's a good voice. Perhaps you should turn the water off first. Yeah. It is so true. And that's how you become, I think, really emotionally healthy. You realize the positive value of those voices. Of course, like we've talked about or mentioned before, there's a negative side to all of those. And I think even the controlling side of a strong initiator who demands things to be their way, I have to get in touch with my initiator to push back with those people.
SPEAKER_02:That's a great example. That's a great example. Yeah. And that's part of then what it is to be healthy in the midst of relationships. Yeah. I'm interacting with somebody who could just roll right over me. And now I'm finding the voice that says, I need to speak up in these moments. And yeah, maybe in those moments you'd like to live on an island away from that individual.
SPEAKER_00:No, that's why that's why I say people model the behavior they want, or they model the behavior they need. Like with a lot of people that are married to narcissists, I will use the phrase, you have to get in touch with your own narcissism in order to push back. Wow. And it's so counterintuitive for those people because that feels so wrong. And I go, well, you're not becoming them. I said you're using the trait that defends and protects yourself, because that's what they are doing unconsciously to the detriment of the relationship. So you have to really get in touch with what you want and stand firm in it.
SPEAKER_02:It also leads you to a place I think. Let me preface it briefly by saying I think one of the difficult issues in relationships is that when we speak the same spoken language, we think we're speaking the same language. That just because we speak English does not mean we're saying the same thing. That's absolutely true. And the language of a responder is so different than the language of a transformer. And we're using the same words, but they come out with completely different meanings. And so when you said get in touch with the narcissist inside of you, when you begin to learn that internal language and try and speak it in a healthy way inwardly to yourself, you then can speak the narcissistic language in ways that get heard. Because the problem so often is we speak in ways that never get heard by the other individual because we're not speaking their true language. Absolutely true. And that that is that is the secret to communicating.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I say with couples, in the context of who you know that person is, how do you you know how to talk to them? Oh, yeah. And yet we it takes energy to stop and think, okay, wait a minute. If I talk to this way, they're never going to hear me. If I talk the way that I want to talk, they're not going to hear me. But if I can talk the way they talk, then it makes more sense. That that takes that's an art. I mean, that's that that that does take work to get to that point.
SPEAKER_02:My kids are now in the parenting stage of little infants, and to watch how language changes when you're interacting with a baby. I mean, your tone, your voice, everything, because you're trying to communicate in a way that makes sense. And we forget that when they're teenagers. That's so true.
SPEAKER_00:But we can talk about you're doing all that stuff. Yeah, you're talking the baby's language, but we you we do forget it in adolescence because it's very self-serving conversations typically in adolescents. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But the principle still holds. If you're gonna talk well to your children, you've got to make sure that you are speaking a language that is heard because it's just because it's English doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it really is the language of validation.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We're validating the four-month-old.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, absolutely true. Yeah. You're good at that, Chip.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm really good at that.
SPEAKER_00:In fact, it's the same thing. It's the same thing with adolescent to to say, I I know you're not gonna like the fact that I'm taking your phone away. I I can understand that that would really suck. But we're gonna take your phone away.
SPEAKER_02:Or an acknowledgement that being upset is probably the appropriate response. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Uh Jim, thanks. This has been a good episode. I'm loving these questions. So we've got a few more we gotta get to.
SPEAKER_00:They're great questions. I need to ask you more questions, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01:Well, okay, great.
SPEAKER_02:Are you enjoying the podcast? I sure am. I need to tell a friend about it. Thank you. We hope the listeners will as well.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely true. Thanks. Great, Jim. Yeah, good to be with you.
SPEAKER_02:That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, now that's good stuff.