S1E20 Mental Health And Personality Styles

We explore how mental health concerns intersect with the STIR model and show how balance, flexible thinking, and self-awareness transform relationships. From early dating green flags to parenting stalemates, we lay out practical steps to move toward the middle and reduce projection.

We walk through real-world moments—early dating, high-conflict parenting, and long-term partnership—to show how to spot green flags and build healthier patterns. Flexible thinking becomes a north star: can someone hold their view and truly consider yours? Then comes the essential move to the middle. If you lean toward masculine in energy, practice the softer start of validation. If you lean feminine, practice setting clear limits before soothing. That sequencing flip often unlocks calm, trust, and actual behavior change.

The game changer is a heart shift away from projection. When you stop needing your partner to be a certain way so you can be okay, pressure dissolves and intimacy returns. Strangely, what you wanted often appears once the demand is gone. We also talk about coping when a partner lacks insight, how to maintain self-respect without ultimatums, and why independence and interdependence aren’t opposites but allies when you’re grounded.

If you’re mapping your style, healing through depression or anxiety, or simply craving fewer blowups and more connection, this conversation gives you practical steps: name your base style, anticipate your risk points, and practice the opposite skill set on purpose. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a hopeful roadmap, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I'm here with Jim Shaley. I'm your co-host, Dee Kelly, and uh we are trying to explore the inner landscape of personality and how that might help us live in healthier ways, both for ourselves and in relationship. Jim, great to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Welcome back, Dee.

Do Disorders Change Personality Styles

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Thank you. We are in a series of doing QA with questions that have come in from our listeners. And we have a couple today that we'd like to look at, and they kind of take us in opposite directions of the spectrum. One was a question about do mental health issues affect how we look at personality uh styles as we've been discussing the STER model of stabilizer, transformer, initiator, and responder. Do mental health issues affect that matrix, that uh outline that we've been working on? And the flip side of that is um a question that has to do with those who come across as healthy, the kind of key things you're looking for. We've touched on a lot of the details that we look for over the course of this entire season, but the listener was looking for a little bit of a summary of how do I know myself or if I'm early on in a relationship, what am I looking for that exhibits some hope?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, that's those are great questions. Uh uh again, the key ingredient in all of this is of course, if there's someone who's suffering with mental illness, if they're actively seeking treatment, this uh model can absolutely help. And unfortunately, a lot of people find themselves in a relationship with someone who may not be in treatment and may not even see uh how their style is affecting others or even themselves. So that's always the challenge, is getting it is getting to that point where someone begins to investigate how they're being experienced or how or how they're coming across or how someone's affecting them. That's that's the intangible part of it. So if they're if they're seeking treatment and they finally have gotten to a place of realizing, okay, I need to adjust some things, that's the beginning of of health. And yes, absolutely, the the the uh model can help.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

And it I it's fair to say that everyone, anyone, um can go through a season where mental health takes a dip and subject to a lot of things through experiences, um, genetic makeup can sometimes affect a susceptibility to some things. Um, and how we've uh when we talk about family of origin, uh looking back to move forward, that family of origin can have a great effect on mental health issues. Um, so I think maybe I could ask this. You tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems intuitively that the four different personality styles that there might be a propensity uh toward particular mental health issues. For example, responder. Um, somebody who doesn't use that personality style in a healthy way, what might be a um a mental health problem that a person who's a responder might experience?

Responder Pathways To Depression

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Uh that's a that's uh intriguing. Uh the responder, remember, they they take care of others. So uh the extreme expression of that could take several different forms, but one of the basic forms would be I'm overfunctioning, so I'm taking care of everyone else, but not myself. So for me, uh midlife oftentimes the responder will come into therapy because they're incredibly depressed. So the the the mood disorder that they're experiencing is is not they're not understanding it at all because they've given, they've given, they've given to everybody, they've tried to help everybody, and it's hard for them to see that that's actually become dysfunctional for them. And so that could lead to a really profound, even a major depressive disorder.

Transformer Risks: Addiction And Drama

SPEAKER_01 4:26

And just to be clear, all four personality styles, uh any one of them could experience depression, but you just described kind of a pathway to that if somebody's overly functioning. Um, transformer, do the same kind of thing. We've talked a couple of times about transformers um having a natural um response mechanism that could take them down the pathway of addictions. Right. Um, and that's a way by which they respond to their emotions that are kind of a result of their personality style. Is that fair?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

That's fair. And and that again, that probably loads more on the uh emotional quadrants as far as personality disorders. Okay. So they probably would become more likely to slide into a histrionic style, which is attention-seeking, uh flamboyant, just having a lot of fun because again, they're spontaneous and they're impulsive. Well, a lot of people that have histrionic personality styles have that same expression, or it could even be borderline.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Sure. And for any of these, just to clarify, um, you'd be wise to get some professional help.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Um, and sometimes you can see that happening with someone and you you try to help, but ultimately that goes back to what I said earlier. They have to have some sense of insight that I'm the common denominator here.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah.

unknown 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Yeah. A desire to get help.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Right. Exactly. It would be like identifying when my my bias of those four uh styles is too excessive.

Initiator Pitfalls And Narcissism

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah. Yeah. So let's shift to the masculine side of that equation, the uh initiator who is always moving forward, always taking action, just has a uh a bias toward movement. Um what what would be a susceptible area in terms of mental health for that individual?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, it would depend if they if they are a strong initiator, which means they probably load more on a prototypical narcissistic strain, which would then mean that they struggle with having a conscience or realizing how they affect others or empathy. So they could become kind of an aggressive personality disorder, which basically means that they would load on uh not having much self-reflection or conscience. And so they would be excessive and take advantage of people. Uh, you know, in the corporate world or takeover artists, they go in and destroy a company to sell it. That could be the extreme of that. Now, not everybody, not everybody that does that has that trait, because sometimes companies need to be bought and sold, I suppose.

Stabilizer Rigidity And Control

SPEAKER_01 7:08

But yeah. Thank you. Great one. Then the fourth one uh that we would mention of the four personality styles, the stabilizer. That person uh in a healthy way is bringing order, rules, boundaries, but taken to extreme would be what?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

That's that's an interesting one. Uh it would be like a dictatorial again. They would demand that they have their way.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Incredibly rigid.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah. And what personality disorder is that? Uh it would probably again load on uh that's a great question. If someone is really dictatorial, uh again, they don't care how they're affecting others, so that feels more like a narcissistic tra strain as well. The masculine is more susceptible to the prototypical expression of narcissism. Whereas the feminine would be prototypical uh to the extreme of of the mood disorders that are more emotionally driven because it's former feminine. So they'd be more susceptible to histrionics or borderline. Or bipolar, I'm assuming as well. Or bipolar, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Yeah. Okay. Again, though, does that necessarily mean gender specific of male or female, or is it the masculine or feminine expression? And it's just a person who has a bent toward a more feminine expression would be susceptible to that. Right. Okay. Okay. Well, once again, uh it's a great question, uh, but there are so many tentacles to Yeah, there's no yeah, there's no clear-cut uh uh expression of any of these things.

When Insight Is Missing In Relationships

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So we're just trying to give a general sense of what could be happening in someone.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So uh but I think the bottom line from what the person was asking is that um it the model itself can still be incredibly helpful if somebody is seeking greater self-awareness, they're seeking help, the more they are self-aware of their natural um tendencies or direction, uh, the better they will be at being able to recognize the issues that they're facing.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yes. And the the another advantage is let's say you're in a relationship with someone who's not self-aware. And so, and I do this a lot in my practice, is helping someone cope. They don't want to, they don't want to get out of the relationship, they don't want to divorce in a clay in the case of a marriage, but they want to stay. And so a lot of conversations about how do you manage yourself in response to someone who isn't interested or doesn't even see that they have these certain traits that are dysfunctional in their relationship. It's difficult, yeah.

Spotting Health Early In Dating

Flexible Thinking As A Green Flag

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah. That's to me a perfect bridge to the other half that we were talking about when we introduced today's episode. And that is what you look for when you're looking for health and balance, uh, both in yourself and in relationship. But since you started, pardon me, since you just ended that section with saying how you can cope if you're in a relationship you don't want to leave with somebody who's struggling with some things, let's take that a step further. Um, early on in a relationship, you're looking for clues of health, which I think is an appropriate thing to do. Um and so I'm entering into you know second, third date with somebody. What kinds of things uh do you think are part of this natural human interaction that um that we ought to pay attention to? And I I'm gonna start off with something we talked about last week, and that is the notion of flexible thinking. If you're having conversations about life, about somebody's work, about political issues, the notion of flexible thinking is one of those wonderful little cards you can watch be played uh by somebody you're dating as to whether or not they're incredibly rigid or and they can agree with you and still be incredibly rigid. So that's easy to get sucked into uh somebody who thinks like I do, but there's no flexibility.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Absolutely. And that's that's a really interesting uh dynamic in the sense that especially if you're getting to know someone and there's a strong attraction, you you'll actually act as if, okay, yeah, I understand that. But when it comes down to it, you know, a year into the relationship, they're really rigid and they're not budging. And so they're not as flexible as they appear. They can see your point of view, but they also really hold on to their own view, which isn't a good or a bad. It's it's how open they are to accepting a different point of view, truly, and not just give it lip service. So that's one of those things that's just so hard to know in the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah. So, because of that, I'm gonna take us back to where I think this should begin, and that is the greater self-awareness you have, the less susceptible you are to being fooled into some of those kinds of things. If you know that you're naturally attracted to something that's not very developed in you and you're unconscious about those things, that's problematic. So let's go back to the individual, and um we're probably not going to be able to identify famous people because we don't know what they're like in their private life.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

So let's just it's so true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah. So let's just talk about an individual um who tends toward the masculine expression of personality. Or balance, they need to pay attention in their own life to what a feminine expression brings to their thinking process, to their decision making, to their relationship and interactions. So finding ways to give voice to the feminine side of their journey. Right? Yes.

Balancing Masculine And Feminine

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Just not easy. Yeah, that's why there's a long yes. I mean, I have a couple couples right now that that's exactly where they're at, trying to get the strong masculine this sense to soften up and to realize how their strong sense of how things are supposed to be is affecting their relationship. And it's it's challenging because their spouse is incredibly emotional, incredibly soft, incredibly nurturing, and they're then and again their conflict is over raising children. So what always happens is they over they try to overcompensate for the judgment they've made they've made about the other style. So if the mom is too coddling, the father will be, in this case, the father will be really, really rigid, and just and they argue about that. So now it's not only affecting their their the parent, the the kids, it's affecting the marriage.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Their relationship, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Absolutely. And so, and so, and I say it, I said it this week a couple of times, to say you gotta soften up and you gotta be you gotta be a little bit harder. It's that balance thing again.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

It is it is moving toward the middle, absolutely, absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

So the so the feminine cycle has to set better boundaries, and the masculine has to be able to give a break and say, Hey, come here, kid, and have a conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

And again, it's not necessarily the male or female that's doing this. If the male has the strong feminine um attributes of nurturing and coddling, they need to move further toward the center of setting appropriate boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

And the couples, the couples basically looking at each other saying, Well, if you just be softer, or if you just be harder, we'd be fine, rather than looking at themselves and saying, What we basically our whole framework is about. Wait a minute, where do I need to move? And I've had such nice progress when I get a father who is just so uh accountability driven, and I can't let my kid get away with that, to walk alongside that kid and validate the feelings first, which is the softer side. I said, you can still, and you have so much more leverage to be able to have a conversation with your kid when you've validated their feelings. And I said, the soft has to come first. Now the reverse is uh is equally as true. If the feminine energy has to be a little bit harsh at first, has to set a boundary, and then they can use their natural softness after they set the boundary. And again, it's all internal from that perspective, like we've talked about over our episodes.

Parenting Tensions And Overcompensation

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think one of the characteristics of many relationships with whom I have the privilege of working is that there is at somewhat of an unconscious level, this resistance to be the first one to move toward the middle.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Yes. It's like it's like another way I frame that is the control issue. Like we talked about. I'm gonna give up ground. No way. I'm the only one holding the right spot. Exactly. If I if I wasn't parenting our kids the way I'm parenting, they'd be a mess.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah. They'd be in this office instead of me.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And that's why when I when I frame it for couples, I will say, you know, when you come into the office, typically you're you're facing away from each other. I said, I can maybe explain some things so you start looking at each other. I said, but then vulnerability starts where I'll take a step forward by being vulnerable. But if the other person doesn't match that, I'll take a step back. And I said, that's why the dance is so delicate as far as getting to a place where I can see how I'm affecting things so much so that I can risk the vulnerability.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah. And I think you probably understated it. Um, if the response isn't what I think it should be, I might take two steps back.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And then they fire me as a therapist because I suck.

Who Moves First Toward The Middle

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah. Um, serious issues uh with hard solutions, but when you begin to honestly um assess what's going on, it really does open up your eyes to um the dynamics that take place. So that given take on the feminine masculine expressions, the same thing is true if I fall into a strong dynamic expression and I'm trying to find a healthier place for myself, I need to give attention to a more static expression of that energy, a more stabilizing responder voice. Conversely, if my natural place is to be in that static, organizational, systematic uh way of living, I need to pay attention internally to the things that bring movement in my life, that pull me to action, that lead me toward uh greater valuing of intuition. And that's a way by which I can get healthier so that when I move into a relationship, I am not desperately needing that other person to fill a blank place in my life. Yeah. Um, but I I'll have to say that with working with individuals who aren't in relationship, um, it's sometimes difficult to get them to see the value of that shift because they have strong biases against that other way of expression.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah. Particularly if they've been harmed by somebody who falls into that other side of the scale. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

And then you gotta, and then that's you have to work through that victim mode and all the other stuff that come with it to pres preserve our sense of self. We we use so many strategies to protect ourselves from being hurt ever again that we close ourselves off. And I think that's another value of what we're talking about as far as being balanced. So wait a minute, if I'm I'm feeling like I'm hurt all the time, so well, how do I need to take care of myself? And again, if I'm really hurt, the quick response is somebody externally is supposed to come help me heal. And we're looking for that person. Well, and it can be a therapist to go to a therapist, which can be the the start because ultimately a therapist represents self-awareness, and so that can be the start of it. But at some point I have to internalize that to a place of wait a minute, nobody's coming to rescue. I had a late a lady yesterday say, you know, I've realized over and over no one's coming to rescue me. Except me and you, of course. We're coming to rescue people. So uh yeah, I'm glad you clarified that. Yeah, because we're the only two left that can rescue people.

Vulnerability, Projection, And Pressure

SPEAKER_01 19:58

That's that's right, the only two left. The the movement within relationships, when there is a healthy balance, an appreciation for the other, flexible thinking, I think that there is an interesting dynamic that sometimes is difficult to explain, where there is a healthy independence and a desire for interdependence. A healthy place where I'm not dependent on the other for the essentials of what it means to be healthy and happy, but it becomes so enhanced when there's somebody who's in that dance doing a similar kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Absolutely. That I mean, that yeah, we don't want to uh give the impression that you can like live on an island forever. So I think that's a great point. When you get really kind of healthy internally, absolutely we want to be interdependent. We want somebody to share our life with, we want somebody to engage with. And when you're doing that together with someone, it's really, really rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. I I can recall some times in my life where the journey toward that place of recognizing how much my projections were thrown onto my my partner, my spouse, realizing that what I thought were issues of conflict externally were actually issues of conflict internally. And when I gave up the need to give outward expression to that and wrestle with what was going on inside, all of a sudden the weight in that area of our relationship, it just began to like evaporate, like a fog that when the sun comes out and it starts burning at the fog. And no longer being dependent upon a response for me to be satisfied. That I don't know how to say it, other than it was a complete game changer.

Independence And Interdependence

SPEAKER_00 22:14

No, that's that's exactly what happens. You internalized that part of what you were projecting out on someone else is supposed to do. And when you realize that, yeah, that's why when I talk about a heart change, that's what I mean. My heart has shifted so much so that I no longer need that. And the whole relationship changes. And oftentimes the person that I've wanted something from begins to give it because there's no negative pressure. That unconscious pressure is fascinating. And I wish there was a way to kind of quantify it and be able to make it visible because it's so true. If I give up your need to be a certain way, genuinely, I never hardly ever think about it again. So many times you start expressing the very thing that I wanted. And I, you know, I know it's probably metaphysical or whatever as far as how the brain functions, but again, I'm projecting. The power of projection is intense. So I need you to be a certain way, and you better be that. And if you're not, my life's miserable. Wait a minute. No, you're projecting. So if you take that on it, the heart shifts, and yes, so much of the time it the toxicity dissolves so quickly because you're basically projecting your own toxicity onto someone else.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

There's a lot there, but yeah.

Heart Shift: Owning Your Part

SPEAKER_01 23:26

But there's also this wonderful realization when you begin to put it into practice, that all of a sudden you also begin to see that others, and in this case, a partner, a spouse, when they do that projection, you all of a sudden take it far less personally. It's like, oh, they're just struggling with stuff of their past, their life, bad day. It's not me. Um, and if it is me, I I can take that. That's fine. Uh, it changes how you receive, not only how you project. Oh, yeah. That's a great point. That's a great point. Um, I think uh this is a great place to bring an end to this session. I um we're going to, as uh ending to the season, kind of summarize all four personality styles, give a little context to each one of them to try and bring this season to a close. But it felt like this was a really important contrast between mental health issues and trying to move toward a healthy place and balance. Um, and so thanks, Jim. This has been a great discussion. Great. Thanks, Dave. Always good to talk with you. Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Doctor Shali at AFCcounselors.com, or Doctor Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.