S1E21 Accusations, Defenses, And The Work Of Love

We dig into why simple questions can feel like attacks, how to pause before defenses take over, and what healthy masculine and feminine responses sound like when tensions rise. We connect the dots between conflict, self-love for responders, and dreams that process the emotions we ignore by day.

• how interpretation turns questions into accusations
• the pause that makes space for truth and choice
• toxic vs healthy masculine and feminine patterns
• using I-statements without losing your voice
• why deep care makes triggers sharper
• steps for responders to practice self-love across quadrants
• customizing the model with your own language
• dreams as emotional recalibration and inner balance cues
• applying dream themes to daytime communication

If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well.

Thanks for being here
And until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. My name is D. Kelly. I'm here with my co-host, Jim Shalley. Good to be with you, Jim. Good to be with you, D. As usual. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

We've been what what episode is this?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

This is episode 563.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Of which we've done 17 of them.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Something like that. We are exploring personality and how it gets expressed relationally and engagement in the world and vocationally, trying to help people see a model that would help them in terms of their balance and health. We've had a number of questions from listeners, and we thought that we would continue just with a few more that have come in.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

The first one that I'd like to hand off to you is before you continue, there was one that I know uh sorry to interrupt, but there's one that actually said, when are you going to talk about dreams? So sometime probably we need to focus more on the dream side of it sometimes. Anyway. I don't want to forget. I didn't want to make forget to make that comment.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

I appreciate that. So then let's jump down to the last question here, which has to do with dreams. No. Well we'll get to that before this hour is over. Half hour. This 20 minutes, this 10-minute episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

That's right. Okay, good to be with you all. Actually, one of my clients did say, are you making this into a book form? And then I said, Well, that would be D. D would probably do more of that than uh than Jim. So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Actually working on that now, so I appreciate the question, and hopefully we'll have something the listeners can tap into if they want to. That'd be great. Here was a question that came in, a person who's been in a long-term relationship, and said, How do I handle accusatory questions from my spouse? And it the kind of spin-off to that he inter He interprets him as accusatory. Great point. Great point. Yeah, because there's nothing that says that the spouse feels that way. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah.

unknown 2:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Then that's where it immediately starts to sort of go off the rails, so to speak, in that sense, how I'm interpreting the other person. And their tone of voice, you know, all those things are a part of it. And it may be it may very well be, but the other person may not acknowledge that. I mean, that's yeah, that's the hard part of the communications side of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

And usually that will lead to a pretty quick impasse if Yep. Yep. Pretty much take it as accusatory and respond in a like fashion by being accusatory.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Oh, yeah. The brain takes over and goes, whoops, okay, I'm fighting back.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great first step, is if you feel like something is accusatory, to ask yourself, is there something inside of me that is interpreting this as accusatory, which is really difficult in the moment? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

But if you can pause and and hold the emotion for just a moment before you react, you might Yeah, because if I'm feeling accused and I take that self-reflective moment, there may be some truth in whatever they're saying that feels accusatory, but it may be, you know, a growth thing for the individual.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah. I spot on. So the follow-up question ties in and would take us to the next level of why do I take things personally? Yeah, because you want to. I think you I I think part of that is I take it personally because I care deeply for the person I'm interacting with. That like the greater that level of love and commitment, you're personally invested, but it also makes you vulnerable because the the affection lowers some defenses that if you get triggered, all of a sudden the defenses fly up even higher than they would have been had you not been vulnerable in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's that's really true. That's a that's a really good reframe from that perspective. You care so much for the relationship that you're assuming something's there that it's still hard for you to look at.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And this is the last person you would want thinking poorly of you. And when you feel like it's coming across as accr accusatory, it leaves you in this space where, oh my goodness, this person I care deeply about thinks about me less than I want them to think about me. Great. That's a great way of putting it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

That's what that's why you get defensive, because you you want the other person to have you in high esteem. And when they ask a question that challenges that, yeah, we immediately become a little defensive because, oh my word, you're seeing me less than I want to see me, which is a projection about I actually see myself less than I really want to acknowledge. And so that's why it's the internal part of it. That's why I get triggered.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah. Usually. Usually. It has been a joy to watch. It's not easy to get there, but to work with couples where the person who feels attacked, I I don't know any different word when it's accusatory. It's kind of a sense of being attacked. When they are able to make a statement that says, I doubt you are intending to, but I just want you to know how I inwardly react when you say things a particular way. And it's not on you. I need to work on some things, probably. But when you use this approach, I feel attacked. And that slowing down the conversation just for a moment can raise defenses in the other person, but it can also lead to a conversation that s says, give me some other ways that I could have said it, because I wasn't intending to attack, but that just seemed like the natural way to state something.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, it's the classic eye statement. So if I have enough presence of mind before I get triggered to be able to say, I'm feeling accused of something, is that your intention? Well, who does that in real life? It's a great point. You know, it's like Well, let me have oh, oh, I'm I'm feeling something. Excuse me for a second. I'm feeling uh accused. Is that no? It's like that immediately the brain tri gets protective and pushes pushes back. But yeah, that's that's always a challenge. It's like, okay, I'm feeling really intense. And again, sometimes you have to realize the person who's saying something has to be aware enough to know how they're saying it as well. And they may be thinking they're saying it perfectly, but they also have a kind of a annotation in their in their voice or something that conveys something different than what they're intending to do. So it's a two-way street from that perspective. But on the surface, typically we get defensive quickly because there's probably something deep inside that's ringing a bell of truth, and we haven't examined it fully yet. Whether it's it deep insecurity, whether it's I want to be viewed as uh perfect or you know, whatever irrational thought may be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I think uh uh a great tape to try and play enough so that it comes up naturally in your head is the tape that says, is there something here that's true that I can take and grow from? And can I just let go of the rest? Right. And once again, that takes pretty uh pretty good self-awareness to even have that thought. Aaron Powell Yeah, you have to have practiced that intentionally numerous times before you get to the place where it pops up quickly. Um I jotted down a few notes to myself as we're talking here about the difference between the masculine and feminine in how we take things personally and the difference between the toxic and healthy masculine and the toxic and healthy feminine. And so I'm now I'm talking about inwardly, because we all have all of these things within us. So if we're trying to tap into another part of who we are, how do we know when it's showing up in a toxic way? And how do we know when it's showing up?

SPEAKER_00 8:21

That's a great point. Because as you were asked the question, I was thinking, okay, there's a healthy and unhealthy way that you're going to respond to this in both the masculine and feminine sides, and both the static and dynamic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

So here's my here's how I think maybe it plays out. You add to or disagree, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

But I will say I will simply whatever that word is. Concur? Yeah. Confer with what you say. Would you concede? That's what I want. Oh, okay. Yes. I'll concede to your your far wisdom or wise than I am.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Okay. So if inwardly my masculine comes out in a toxic way, my response to feeling accused, I'll be dismissive.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I would just Yeah, that's the static response for the masculine. The aggressive masculine would punch you in the face or fight back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah. Still it's the masculine side. So a masculine toxicity would be aggressive or completely dismissive. Absolutely. Just like, you know, you're crazy. Yeah. So the healthy masculine would probably seek more feedback.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Like, they would say, uh they would actually be able to say, I'm I'm feeling really defensive. Or I'm being defensive, I know, or I'm I'm feeling accused. Or they would more literally say, I'm being accused. That's not right. Yeah. That was that's not the best form of it, but that's that's the extreme healthy masculine. They would push back appropriately and say, I'm being accused of something. They'd have to have a feminine, they'd have to add the feminine side of that to say I'm feeling accused, which is the integration piece. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

I can also see the masculine side out of a sense of responsibility, not necessarily compassion, because compassion would move you more toward the feminine side, but the pure masculine, out of a sense of responsibility and knowing that's it's important, would say, Could you tell me more? Yes. Can you tell me what you're trying to get at here? Help me to understand it.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

So that's a really healthy masculine mode that seeks information. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Exactly. So the healthy masculine will seek more information as opposed to be dismissive or aggressive.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

And then and then the healthy Okay, so let's take the feminine response to feeling accused. My perspective would be that the toxic feminine, one of the responses would be to pout.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Right? That would be the passive approach to pout. And and let everybody know the mood that they're in.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Mm-hmm. In a very quiet way. Or in a loud way, which would be to go h a little hysterical and dramatic and I can't believe you said that about me. I can't believe Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

The transformer energy would be far more dramatic about it. Yep. Yeah. The responder would be more of the the static feminine would be more pout or mood-driven. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. Mood driven and they would pout or they would go, I'm so sorry. I'm just miserable. I know I I mess up everything. I, you know, it's my fault. Yeah, they would go to that that side of it.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

So the healthy feminine, when they feel like they've been attacked, would step into healthy relational conversation.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

The transformer might initially kind of laugh it off like the masculine would minimize it. They might initially do that a little bit. But then they would either tease about it or say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd probably do that. That's probably true. I do do that. They might be more likely to acknowledge the truth of it, just like the responder would say, hey, you know what? I can see that. Again, the feminine is relationally driven. So the healthy side of it is they emphasize that first, both functionally or dysfunctionally. And that's that's how the functional side of the of the feminine would do it.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So I think that one of the great things that this question raises is that there is this level of putting this into practice where you are looking at the dynamic in relationship. You are looking at the dynamic with a partner and the give and take that takes place that generally speaking brings out your normal patterns. Part of what we encourage in all of this is to now take that inwardly and say, what if you tapped in to the parts of you that don't normally give voice to your reactions? So if you have a strong masculine response, not just to do a different response out of a sense of responsibility, but do a different response out of a sense of compassion or relational value and try and tap into a side of you that has not regularly had expression in your life. And that that inward will then begin to change how the outward reactions take place. This this hits a wound inside of me that I'm just now beginning to realize is there. Have you seen this in me? And engage in a conversation with a partner that you trust.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Because it has to be when you're in a relationship, it has to ideally it has to be a journey you're on together, so that if I'm experiencing you as being accusatory, they have to begin to see how they could be interpreted that way as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And I I know that both of us, therapist, coach, have worked with individuals where we are trying to get them to see what's behind their sarcastic comment or their accusatory statement that they deny and pass off of, oh, that's just that's how I was raised, or whatever the case might be. And to help them become more self-aware of their inability to communicate what's really on their heart by doing it in these very cryptic ways. Yeah, it's uh it's very true. Yeah. Let me mention something that came out of experience with a client of mine. We have throughout the podcast used these terms, the stir model, and we've given names to the masculine dynamic, the static feminine. And we have in our mind, generally speaking, what those categories are. I have often encouraged people to not use our adjectives, but to create their own descriptors of what they view as the masculine side or the feminine side. What what does that mean to you? That'll help them internalize some of it. That's good. So one of those experiences was this week where I've been trying to help this particular client get in touch with her masculine side that has found virtually no expression in her life. And I asked the question, I said, Would you just list for me some adjectives of what you think toxic masculinity is? It was incredible, not so much in touch with any expression in her own life, but she immediately gave me this list of nine adjectives that I couldn't have done a better job of identifying toxic masculinity. I followed by saying, I know you don't have as many models of this, but what does healthy masculinity look like to you? She gave me another list of eight to nine, struggled, but I just I waited, and she named some of the best adjectives of healthy masculinity. I said, So this now is your framework for how you view the masculine side of who you are. You have good reason to be reluctant about going there because look at this toxic side. But in health, look what you can tap into. And the list she gave you she gave you permission for us to steal it. Well, yes, she did.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

I immediately said, I need to market this. Thank you very much for doing our work for us.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah. But it reminds me that if for some reason somebody has a reaction to the term initiator and they are wanting to identify that as something else, do so. Make the model fit for your journey. And that I think is uh a downside of what has so often happened is our attempt to put everybody into a very static model and say, no, these are the parameters. This is so subjective and it's based on experiences and family of origin.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

That's great. So so the only reason I came up with stir was because if you do it all, it stirs it up. So it made sense from that perspective. But you're right. Is anybody can own that and make it in their their own reality, which is the internalization process. That's great. Yeah. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Let me take us to another question here. We had a a caller who or somebody who wrote in and said that she's an adult that currently in a relationship. She is a responder by nature. And she is wrestling with how she can do a better job of loving herself. Because as a responder, her focus has been on other people most of her journey. We've talked a little bit about this when we talked about the responder and that they have to learn that process of loving themselves. But in so doing, she really needs to tap into some of the other aspects of who she is. So give her some suggestions on this movement toward health as she's trying to not with another person, but on her own, develop a way by which a pathway to self-love.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Yeah, I think that's that that actually moves right into the formulation of the four quadrants. I mean, really, she's identified the one, her bias that she's given away. So she's now focusing on herself, which is the first step that a responder will do. Okay. I need to love myself. So where do I need to initiate? Where do I need to have fun? Where do I need to bring order to my life? You know, whether it's downsizing your life, whether it's taking trips, all those things. That's that's the natural progression of identifying where you've given away your best and taking that back and saying, okay, wait a minute. Where where do I need to take charge of my life? And where do I need to bring order? Where do I need to have fun? That's exactly what and I think uh you shared with me a model that you come up with that we haven't expressed because we're we're audio, so you can't see it. But it perfectly displays the overlap of all the quadrants and how they interplay. And so from that perspective, the biggest uh move for this person was to identify what their natural bias was, how they've used it, and now to take it back. It's like a it's like a projection. You take back the projection and you say, okay, where do I need to be at this point? And that's a great place to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

You know, Jim, I think probably it'd be good to take that model and put it uh available on a website and the resource in the notes of this particular podcast so somebody can just tap on that and pull it up if they want to. I'll make that happen this week.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Okay. Um one of the individuals talked about it I didn't mean to make I didn't mean to make have you making more work for you. So Yeah, you do. That's always what you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

That's true. I feel like you're minimizing things here, right? You're just sitting around staring at yourself in the mirror. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

So a question has come up about how this applies to our dreams. We've touched on a few dreams, but let me make mention of a good example here. I had a client who had a dream, and there were four male characters in the dream. All four of the male characters in the dream were providing care for the dreamer in the dream in different ways. They weren't all together. They showed up at in different scenes in different ways. But when you looked at the movement of those characters, they were all providing some type of nurture or care or consolation for the dreamer. So then the question comes up of how do you use this model as a way by which to learn more about yourself and that dream material? So one of the i issues is that it appears in the dream that the Masculine images are functioning in very nurturing, caregiving, static feminine ways. What might that imply about a person's journey? And I'm sure you have some suggestions as to where you might go with this, but one of those is to ask: do you feel in your life that the masculine side of you is not being allowed to express itself in its masculine strengths and ways? Absolutely. And why would that be true in your life? The other angle, if that doesn't resonate with somebody, is to say, is the masculine having to fill in for the feminine because there's no self-care taking place? That the responder is not doing its own self-care. And so the masculine is having to step into a role that it's not necessarily at its, I don't want to say its best, but it's its natural state because you, as in your ego, are having a tough time doing the self-care that you need to do. And some some other part of you is having to step in to do that. So any comments on that? Any thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Well, I think I think generally that's a great way of looking at dreams because you identify the parts of the dream that go along with our uh our frame. For example, I had a client who had really angry dreams, and you know, it didn't take long to figure out that it was the inappropriate expression. He wasn't expressing he was just angry about so many things in his life, but he was sucking up. He was swallowing it. And so he had these angry dreams. And I said, Well, that's that's your masculine energy trying to express itself. It's inappropriate, perhaps, but you have to find your voice and be able to say what you need to say. Well, at the same time, he said, I can't I can't do that. I would risk it would risk relationships. I said, Well, we need to work on maybe the appropriate way to say some things. But yeah, there's always a price to pay when you take a stand for things. So from my perspective, yeah, identifying the dream, the parts of the dream go along with the same frame we have, and then seeing what they're trying to say to you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

That that part about there is always a risk of allowing another part to speak.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

So so And the dream and the dreams can take care of that without us having you do it in real life. Yeah. At least that's what.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Here's the problem with that, though. We'll talk in a couple of weeks when we get into season two of Dreams about the five functions of dreams. And one of the functions is that it helps us to process emotions of the previous few days that we did not give attention to during the day, but they carry such emotional weight that they need to be recalibrated for us to have any capacity the next day for emotions. And so if somebody is experiencing some things that trigger anger, but during the day you don't give emotional attention to that anger, you won't the next day have any capacity for emotions if at night the dreams don't replace some of those things to give expression to that anger. So dreams play out for us the expression of this emotion so that we can recalibrate and have emotional capacity the next day. And there are two parts to that.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

That's why sleep is so important.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Essential. Absolutely. Yeah. So we can be grateful that dreams are doing that, but when we pay attention to our dreams, it should be a reminder that, oh, actually, I probably need to give expression to my anger while I'm awake.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

And if you do that, you'll have wonderfully pleasant dreams forever.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Anyway, that's some of what we have to look forward to in season two, is taking a little bit of a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I look forward to that because you you know more of the dream stuff than I am. So I'll hopefully I have good questions like you have for me when it comes to dreams. I'll just simply say this. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

And then I'll go, I I feel like I'm being accused. Like I shouldn't be talking about this. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And I'll go, you are being accused, because I have no idea what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

So no. You'll say to me, okay, pay me my fee and I will explain this to you. Uh okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Uh I'll embrace that one.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Oh, Jim. As always, it is so great to be with you. Looking forward not only to summarizing this season, but moving into season two, we can when we can uh dig a little bit deeper into some of these things. Thanks, Jim. Thank you very much. See you. Bye. And dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, doctor Shali at AFCcounselors.com, or Doctor Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, no, it's good stuff.