S2E4 The Backstory Behind Therapy, Coaching, And Dreams

A lot of podcasts ask you to trust the hosts. We’d rather try to earn it by telling you where we come from and what shaped the lens we use when we talk about therapy, coaching, and dreams.

We start with our winding educational paths, from seminary and clinical psychology to industrial organizational psychology and an MBA, and why those choices still matter in the room with real people. Along the way, we name a quiet truth: many of us begin by living out someone else’s dream, then wake up midstream and realize we want something different. That shift can feel liberating, scary, or both, especially when family values and religious influences form your first map of the world.

We also get honest about dream work. Despite advanced degrees, formal training about dreams is often thin, which pushes dream exploration into self-education, sleep research, and long-term curiosity. If you’ve ever wondered how to use dreams in therapy or coaching, this podcast helps you ask better questions and choose an approach that feels grounded and meaningful.

From there, we talk about what happens when lived experience stops matching inherited beliefs and why institutions can feel both supportive and restrictive. The thread tying it all together is relationship: how long-distance friendship stays strong through safety, tone, and the willingness to admit bias. We end with a simple gut-check that can change your conversations fast: notice when being right starts to matter more than the relationship.

Subscribe for more conversations on therapy, coaching, personality, and dreams and if this one resonates, share it and leave a review so more people can find us. What belief or “family script” have you had to revise to keep growing?

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

Speaker 2 0:14

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I'm your co-host, Dee Kelley, and I'm here with Jim Shalley, and we love talking about the inner landscape of personality and digging into different aspects of what it means to be in therapy or working with a coach and how dreams might play into some of that. We spent our first season discussing a model for understanding personality that we will continue to refer to throughout this season.

Speaker 0:42

And one of our listeners, Dee, actually u commented that uh we're getting into a groove. Oh I like that.

Speaker 1 0:50

Hopefully we can continue that groove.

Speaker 0:52

After the uh I think he said about the eighth session, he said you're kind of getting into the groove. Before that, I'm not so sure. So yes. The inner landscape sometimes is clearer than others.

Speaker 2 1:03

So I'm actually kind of glad it only took eight episodes for somebody to say, okay, I think I'll keep listening to this.

Speaker 1 1:10

That's right.

Speaker 2 1:14

So I've actually had some listeners that have asked a bit about our background, how we came to know each other, some of the things that have brought us to this point in time. So I thought it might be good to just take a few minutes and look back on what gets us to this point in time, why we're even doing this together. That's a great question. And with you living in the Chicago area and I live in the San Diego area, how'd the two of us get together and come up with this idea of looking at therapy, coaching, and dreams? We've talked a little bit about this, but let's just start with something that's fairly easy, and that's educational background.

Speaker 1 1:51

Okay.

Speaker 2 1:52

There are a lot of people who I'm sure have asked themselves, what qualifies them to say anything that they're saying.

Speaker 2:05

That's right.

Speaker 1 2:06

That's all it takes this day in America. That's all it takes these days. That's the that's true. A couple microphones and a recording system. Absolutely. And a couple crazy thoughts and put them out.

Speaker 2 2:18

Let me touch base on yours first. You've got a couple of masters and doctorate in psychology.

Speaker 2:24

Undergraduate degree in history, because I was wondering where I was headed. So I I originally had talked about going to law school, but and then going to law enforcement. But that uh was a I'm not sure what kind of dream was that, thinking about 50 years ago. Well So the undergraduate was in history, and then I went to seminary actually and got a degree, a master's degree in divinity. Then I got a master's degree in counseling psychology, and then I continued that and ended up getting a uh a degree in clinical psych doctorate in clinical psychology. So I love that. So I guess that makes it then better to have the ideas to put them out so you have a little bit of education.

Speaker 2 3:08

So how about you? My undergraduate degree was in psychology. I actually, when I went to college, was intending to be a dentist.

Speaker 3:21

I remember that, yes. We've known each other a long time. So I do remember that. Yeah. You had license plates with even DDS on them, I think.

Speaker 2 3:29

I did. I I realized, though, halfway through my college career that that was probably more my father's dream than it was my dream.

Speaker 3:40

Excellent. Well, my my seminary degree was probably more my my way I was raised dream. So Yeah.

Speaker 2 3:47

I also found organic chemistry very difficult.

Speaker 1 3:50

And I thought I'm not sure I can go through a degree on this.

Speaker 2 3:58

I went back to school later on, several years after I graduated from undergraduate work, and not exactly like you, but in a similar fashion, I got a master's in religion. And then I found that I was very interested in learning, loved learning new things. And the topic that particularly interested me was industrial organizational psychology. It was a relatively new field at the time. And there weren't that many schools that offered degrees in that, at least at a doctorate level. And so I ended up attending a school out here in California in the San Diego area and got a master's in psychology, and then my PhD is in industrial organizational psychology, which has given me a wonderful opportunity to work with businesses and organizations. I continue to be interested in it. And in my work with businesses, I realized that there was a piece I was lacking. I don't know that I felt like anybody asked me about it, but I felt like it was maybe a credibility issue for me. And that was understanding the business language of accounting and organizational design, even though I got some of that in my doctoral work. So I went back and I got an MBA just to kind of have that language set when I would work with organizations. So that rounds out kind of my background in education. I still love learning. It's always tempting to go back to school, but uh uh it doesn't serve much of a purpose. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 5:27

Yeah, you've not had real so no formal necessary training in the dreams. You're just self-educated because you've worked really hard at really knowing so much about dreams and the effect on the brain and all that, which sometimes I think the self-motivation to learn things may be a little bit you're more driven to do that sometimes than even going through some organized educational system. So I think later Yeah, mine came later as well. My my initial degree in from seminary was in my twenties, and then I worked for several years in a church setting because my father was a a minister, my family's has a lot of history in the church. And then I I went back to school to get the when I was in my 30s to get my master's in counseling, and then I continued that, and then it ended in my early 40s with the doctorate degree, and I started doing therapy by own practice.

Speaker 2 6:26

So yeah. You're you're right about the dream side of things. I think it dawned on me as I was going through a pretty long educational process. I mean, I was working through most all of that, couldn't afford to go to school and not be working, got married at a young age, and so it was always combined, I'm in school and I'm trying to hold down enough employment to pay for what it is that we're doing. But I realized as I went through all of my education that there was no course or section or workshop on dreams. And anything that I explored in my psychology journey of education was almost exclusively on my own. And it has been this long journey of finding the pockets of research and areas of interest that captivated me from a learning perspective, but also catapulted me into the personal reflection piece that has molded how I think and how I view people and how I view the world we live in. So yeah, it's you're right.

Speaker 7:37

Well, that's an interesting question, though. So is there have you ever come across a degree in dreams? No.

Speaker 2 7:44

There are certain large institutions that have within actually it's more typical in the sciences, less typical in psychology, where there will be dream research going on, and often out of that dream uh sleep research mostly. And then out of that sleep research comes dream research. But I've I've never found a degree that focuses specifically on dream work.

Speaker 8:13

If you had another lifetime, would you start that? Um I'm not saying you're I'm not saying you're old and you're beyond that, but I'm just saying it's a fascinating thought. I've never thought of it in that terms that there's actually it would be more like the scientific study of the brain as to how it's affected by dreams. So I could see that. But to actually di do a degree in dream interpretation, because I know the the the degree that I uh I got, it has uh a section of dreams, but certainly nothing that would would constitute a degree in it.

Speaker 2 8:47

So Yeah. Yeah. I think the other implication you were making was that I've wasted this lifetime. Would I do anything productive in another lifetime?

Speaker 8:59

Well, D, I think the word wasted is is is very critical. I'm not sure it's wasted.

Speaker 2 9:06

Just nothing to show for it. That's what you're saying. Well, you've talked a little bit about family of origin, and in um season one, episode two and three were all about looking back to move forward. And I'm not we don't need to go into depths about our family of origin, but just some of the influences that came out of that. You've mentioned being the son of a pastor, and you had brothers that I know have been influential on you. My my dad was a businessman, my my mom a teacher. And much like you, I had some strong religious influences. And when you're a kid growing up, you you assume that what you learn from your parents is the way that it is for everyone in the world. This notion that, I mean, why would you question anything because this was what you learned? Yeah. So it forms that value system and the perspective. So were there any pieces of your journey that started to break open that perspective to realize, oh, there might be other ways to view the world and life. And I will say that though college was a great learning experience, my college experience carried most of the same values that I grew up with. I agree. And so it was really graduate school that started exposing me to a much broader range of people and ideas and thoughts. And it wasn't so much that anything came crumbling down, but it was like light started shining in places that had never shined before.

Speaker 10:54

Yeah, that's a great way of describing it. Yeah. I would say the same thing with me. I was in my probably late 20s, and I remember having some thoughts that were outside of the the way I was raised uh to think about the world and life. And I remember being talking to my oldest brother about that, and he goes, Well, what do you think's gonna what do you think is gonna happen? And I said, Well, I don't I'm not sure. You know, am I gonna go to hell? You know, all these all these thoughts I've started having as far as can I really chuckled, but that's a if you're raised a particular week, that's kind of a terrifying thought. Absolutely. It's like, okay, where did that thought come from? I'm not sure I'm supposed to have that thought. Well, I think for me that's the same thing too, being exposed to higher education. Again, that can get a that can sound like a bad rap, but you basically just expand the world and you realize there's so many viewpoints and ways to express yourself. So I think I began to grow up a little bit and own my own thoughts and realizing that God is larger than any any of my restrictive thoughts, perhaps, and that I can certainly think a little bit differently and investigate things in a in a different perspective. But with that said, I really appreciate the foundation that I was given as a child because it it set a framework as far as uh ethics and how to think and how to treat people. And from my perspective, that was always a good thing. But I probably have expanded that somewhat as far as my own personal beliefs.

Speaker 2 12:31

Maybe in a few moments we'll talk a little bit more about and I can maybe it's just from my perspective, but how our friendship helped me navigate some of those waters. But it it is interesting that we took very different vocational pathways as you were moving away from a vocational choice that would have fit very neatly into your family of origin. I made a choice that put me in the center of all of that religious perspective, in that I took a role as a senior pastor at a church for 17 years. And our discussions were interesting surrounding that. My journey was interesting surrounding that, in that I think I knew a long time that it would inevitably come to some type of a crisis because I didn't fit neatly into the package of the denominational structure that I was working within.

Speaker 13:30

I think that's one of the one of the things we've talked about. I think we've even mentioned in our first season that when you're as you grow and your experience doesn't line up with your theology, it can feel like a crisis because all of a sudden I was trained to believe this, and my experience has taught me this. And so I'm always a believer that theology always follows experience. That's why we have so many different schools of theology or schools of psychology. Your experience plays such a major role in how you play that, how you live that out. And so for me, having worked with lots of people in faith systems that they feel like they're crumbling or they're falling apart when really they're just growing up in their faith and realizing that the way I was raised isn't lining up with my experience. So what do I do with that? Do I hang on to the theology and then I become oftentimes you can become bitter or resentful because you're hanging on to a way of living that isn't congruent with what your experience is. So for me, that was that was what kind of moved me through the process is like, okay, that what I was trained to believe, my experience isn't lining up with that. So I'm gonna have to shift some of my theological understandings in order to be able to really continue to grow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 14:45

I it I think that's a great description of how it how it often happens. I I don't know that it's typical because I don't know all of different people's experiences.

Speaker 14:55

So how would how would you explain your journey to getting uh as a as a role as a pastor in a in a church?

Speaker 2 15:02

Well, I think that my experience wasn't exactly like yours in that as my perspective, my theological understanding, my view of people, the world, the universe, as that evolved, it was less of a crisis for me. There were moments that were pretty critical in terms of shifts of thinking, the social dynamics of our current culture certainly put a lot of pressure on the way we do things and how we think. But I think in part because of good support structure and as I said before, I think our friendship made a difference in that, that I felt like I could stay within a system and not hold the theological perspective of that system and do it with some level of integrity, given the role that I played in the people with whom I worked. And that worked really well for a while, though I knew that there was a larger conflict with the institutional, the global institution of which I was a part, under whose authority I did what I did. And that tension just grew and grew and grew until it was came to a point in time where I was pushed out of that organizational system. And I'm not doesn't throw me off, I'm not angry. I I knew while I was in it that there were differences.

Speaker 16:37

That's a really great point, is that the challenge of to staying in an institution that you that you love on some level, but also try to bring some other voice at times in and rigid systems, which can be also very challenging. And oftentimes you you to to use a uh a religious expression, you can get crucified sometimes within those institutions if you speak way outside of it or even a little bit outside of it. And I think I just I just left that still respecting and honoring it, but at the same time, I I just stepped away from it, you know, 35 years ago.

Speaker 2 17:13

So I think there was a desire on my part that I had earned at least some level of voice or credibility within the system, and to be that opposing voice seemed like it was maybe a little bit of a an important role that I could play.

unknown 17:30

Yeah.

Speaker 17:30

Plus you had a long, a long familial history in the particular church you were involved with. I mean, it goes you were your your family of origin was in high levels of leadership, so I can see where you you were delusional thinking you had some influence.

Speaker 2 17:48

Yeah. And I waited until most of those family members died off before they probably appreciated. So Well, given that, I mean, it's obvious that our friendship goes back a long way. And for those that don't know, we met when you were in college and I was in high school through my cousin, Brad.

Speaker 18:11

It's interesting that this I'm not that much older than you, but I am older than you, yes. That would be true. And just if you could see our physical appearances, you could see that pretty well, anyway.

Speaker 2 18:24

It is interesting that this friendship has lasted, given that the only time we've lived in the same city was when I was a freshman in college and you were your first year out of college. And other than that, we've never lived in the same place.

Speaker 18:41

To your point, why have we stayed connected? The safety is one thing, but living so far apart, I know there's been a a couple moments where we challenge that because of the the distance and things, but for me it was maybe it is the just that that safety where you know you pick up the phone and you can say whatever, and there's no no hesitation, no judgment. Yeah.

Speaker 2 19:04

Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgment yet. I do love um the question I've heard you ask me a few times. It's something along the line of why did you feel like you needed to do that? Which is a great question. It is, it forces you to agree with.

Speaker 19:26

If there's no tone or attitude in the question, it could be a good question.

Speaker 2 19:30

That's right. Yeah. If you're around somebody who is judgy all the time. But if it's coming from somebody who you think actually loves to know the answer to that. Absolutely true. It's a great question, which is a wonderful point. You can hear the same thing from two different people and take it two very different ways.

Speaker 1 19:49

Oh, it is so true. It is so true.

Speaker 2 19:53

The defenses kick in before you even realize that they are up and around.

unknown 19:57

Yeah.

Speaker 19:58

Yeah. A real simple example is I have a office manager who's just great and she just takes care of stuff. And I can hear her say things like, Are you going to do that? And if in my personal life someone said it to me, I'd go, What are you talking about? Of course I'm going to do that. You know, I have some kind of attitude or response. Whereas with her, it's like, she has an attitude, but I could completely hear it differently. It's like, oh yeah, I'll take care of that. Or, you know, you didn't do that. Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't do that. Whereas before I would hear that accusatory. It's just interesting how how how we interpret how someone says it or their intention uh is crucial to our own uh our own well-being in some ways.

Speaker 2 20:39

Yeah. I think it is an appropriate thing to ask of yourself, am I creating safe space for this other person or not? Yeah. Is that is the way I'm saying it or the context, am I am I creating a place where this person doesn't have to get defensive or Yeah, which goes way back to what we talked about the first season, those four quadrants of behavior, that's another way of looking at that.

Speaker 21:03

In this context, with what I know about this individual, how do I need to respond or how do I need to talk? Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:09

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully not only you and I, but our audience is learning some tools that help us to sometimes think before we react. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That'd be great. Anything else about our journey? Well, there's probably far more than anybody wanted or needed to be able to do that. Absolutely true.

Speaker 21:26

They have checked out about 30 minutes ago saying, who are these goofballs and why are they telling us about themselves anyway?

Speaker 2 21:34

I will say that I know that when you work with a therapist, there's a limited amount of self disclosure on the part of the therapist for good reason. There's psychological theories that back that up. But I've often thought when I'm listening to a teacher or a workshop leader, it's good for me to know their background because we all enter into what we teach with the This backpack of baggage that we bring with us. And if we know educational background or biases or preferences, we can hear it with intelligent ears, knowing that everybody has a vantage point from which they're standing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 22:18

That's a great point. Because again, exposing your biases in my mind is so healthy as far as having a conversation. There's obviously a big risk. Because if if you reveal that you were raised in a, say, a conservative Christian, a lot of people that that are triggered by that would immediately jump to a certain place and saying, okay, well, I can't listen to them because of that, and not give people grace and space to grow to a different space. But you're absolutely right. Just like an a a Christian might hear someone who was who's speaking and they're an atheist. So they jump to an immediate conclusion about, well, I can I really value anything they say. And so that's a great, that's a great point that we all when I talk with couples, I always talk about if you can have a presence of mind to reveal your bias in any conversation, it's a whole different conversation. So so often we can't because we get triggered, we want to talk too fast or whatever, but we all have a bias. And I think that's the growth is is is revealing that and even facing it yourself.

Speaker 2 23:23

So I'm gonna take us back to something we've mentioned in at least three, maybe four episodes. But when that bias leads you to a place where being right is more important than the relationship, it's the bias is the problem. Yeah. But to admit a bias and acknowledge, but there could be another way to look at this, that uh is another thing that changes the conversation. This is my opinion, but I could be wrong. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I can't imagine a better place to end this particular episode than that place. We're so glad you've joined us and hope, in spite of all you've heard during this episode, you'll come back for the next one. Thanks, Jim. Good to be with you. Yeah, good to be with you. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, now it's good stuff.