S2E5 Going Deep with One Dream

We take one dream and dig deep into the imagery and symbolism of the dreamer’s psyche. We use the STIR model and talk about the dynamic versus static energies. The possibilities unfold and provide multiple pathways for exploration and reflection. This episode is about one person’s dream, but it shows the possibilities available when one decides to examine the inner life.

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I am one of your co-hosts, Dee Kelly, and I'm here with Jim Shaley.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

And I'm the other co-host.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Good to be with you, Jim. We love talking about all kinds of things, but particularly exploring the inner landscape of our personality and how it results in our journey with others and affecting relationships and work and our self-awareness and health. And so we're going to jump in in this particular season. We've been looking a little more closely at dreams. And I would love to start off with a dream, as we have in a few of the episodes for this season. And would also like to make the offer to those who listen that if you'd like to submit a dream, you're welcome to do so by going to inyourdreams.coach and giving some of the details of a dream, and we'll see if we can't use it in one of our episodes. Hope that happens. And I know that both of us have brought dreams from clients, and I've got one for us this morning. And hopefully it will be a springboard for us to look at some of the ways by which we work with people and work toward greater health and greater self-awareness. So anyway, let me jump right into the dream. This is a dream of a gentleman, small business owner, and is fine with letting us use the dream to do some work. And here's his description. I'm in one venue, and I'm about to make my way to another building where there will be a group of highbrow people to observe some sort of trial that I'm in. Trump is in charge of the proceeding. Whoa, okay. And is requiring that I wear only my underwear to the gathering. It is a way to humiliate me, and I know I have no choice, so I begin disrobing. I feel like I will be fine in my undershirt and underpants. When I arrive at the venue, I am wearing a French cuff white shirt and a watch plaid stretch pants. I profusely apologize for not taking off all of the clothing that I was required to take off. I couldn't remember how those clothes got on me. Trump was waffling on whether or not I needed to take those clothes off. And that was the end of the dream.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

So for me, the the dreamer of this is okay sharing this, huh? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Now, don't cause others to be afraid of submitting their dreams to public cost. Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

So and one of the things that's kind of a president, this is kind of a presidential dream. It is. It is. Well, he's a president.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

One of the things that I think it jumps off the page to me immediately is that this is the kind of dream that give kind of gives kind of an explanation of why people just dismiss dreams. It seems nonsensical. The gentleman is not in the midst of any kind of court case. There's nothing that he is anticipating in that regard. And it would be easy to dismiss it and say that's just my mind doing crazy things by the electrical impulses that happen in the middle of the night. But a conviction that dreams serve very specific functions, and we've talked about that in a previous episode, they they rehash emotional weight of the past, they rehearse for things that we are anticipating facing in the future, they recalibrate our emotions, they resolve problems, and they help reveal some of the inner workings of our journey. So with that in mind, I'd look at this dream and some things then are questions that naturally flow out of that. Is there any kind of emotional weight that you've been experiencing in the last couple days that would resemble the kind of emotion that is part of this dream? And one of those things would be that feeling exposed. And so that's one of the questions that would be appropriate to ask. But there are components of this dream that are important to look at. So we've got Trump in there, so several questions that have to do with that. We've got the person disrobing, we've got highbrow people away surrounding it. We've got a trial that seems to be taking place, and this strange clothing thing that clothes are going off, then they're coming back on. Anyway, so those are some of the components. Anything else that jump off the page to you before we dig a little bit deeper into this?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Oh no, that's uh that's a big page to jump off of. So I think I think I'm good. Okay. So have you have you uh just curious, have you processed this with the client? Yeah, a little bit. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I try and uh particularly if a dream comes at the end of a session, I try and give them some questions to work with so that they can spend some time on it.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

You're much more proficient at this than I am.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So Well, this is where I want to bring in your incredible proficiencies, and that is that in addition to the five functions of dreams, I often refer to the ten principles that I use when I'm talking about dream work. And two of those principles seem real important. They are in my listing, the numbers eight and nine, and number eight is try to learn a theory of personality and apply it to what you see in the dream and what you know about yourself. And then the ninth principle of dream work is pay attention to the shadow side. And we didn't spend much time talking about the shadow side in season one, but we did get into it a little bit when we talked about the way in which we vilify others and not paying attention to how those characteristics are actually part of us, our shadow side.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Well, yeah, I would I would say that dreams definitely, from just from my my experience, would express more of the dark side or the shadow side, because we're we kind of try to stay unconscious to that stuff in some ways. And I think the dreams break through that and help us identify it.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

I agree. I will also say up front, for those who are maybe more familiar with shadow work, and you don't need to be for this episode at all, but that I tend to take a much broader view of the shadow side. I tend to think of all of those things that are in the unconscious as possibly being part of the shadow side of who we are. Some more strict Jungian analysts would often make a distinction between the same gender as yourself that appears in the dream as being your shadow side and the opposite gender being the anima or animus. But I'm a little bit broader in my look at the shadow side as being those things that just are struggling to get our attention out of the street. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I would agree. I would agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah.

unknown 7:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

So I'm gonna draw you in in this area. For this particular gentleman, Trump is a figure that probably How How old is he?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

How old before you finish before you f continue, how old is he?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Yeah, young sixties.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Trump would probably be for him that masculine dynamic energy, the initiator side. But it would also probably for this gentleman be the dysfunctional aspect of that. So in that regard, this would be for him, who he's far more static in his approach to life, would probably break the physical. Yes. So this would probably represent the side of him that he doesn't know very well, very reluctant to pursue, hesitant for a lot of reasons. He has a history. I don't know him real well, but he has a history of pushing against power and power structures.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

So therefore, the uh the the what's that the phrase the high the highbrow people?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Aaron Ross Powell Oh, yeah, the highbrow people that are part of the trial. Right. Yeah, that are going to observe. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a great connection. So let's say this and I know this isn't a client of yours, but you're working with this person and some of these images that I just gave you a little bit of background on. What else would you ask about a person who tends to be more static in their approach, has this uh a little bit of a vilification of leadership or power or authority in terms of their own personal growth? Dig a little bit into how you'd push a person to start digging into that.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Well, on the on the surface, I might use a just a casual approach and just use the imagery of today. I would go deeper eventually, but I would say something like so just using the Trump idea, is there anything good about Trump? Because I would want to connect, is there anything good about leadership, anything good about power, anything good about that type of personality? So I would challenge him on that just to see if he could come up with anything like that. Because in my mind, not only is there to your point, the shadow includes a lot of things that I that I don't want to bring into consciousness on some level. And it can be it can be challenging things or it can be really productive things. And so that's why I would ask the question so is there anything good about and see uh see what he would do with that.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

So as we've said in times past, I mean it's very easy to externalize. And the question, it feels to me, is an effort to move from the externalization of Trump and then to take it inward and say inside of you. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yes. I would then like I said, I think I said in a previous broadcast that one of my questions back during the all this tumultuous time in our in our world, if you liked, let's say Hillary Clinton, I talked about Trump. If you liked Trump, I talked about Hillary Clinton. Because flexibility of thinking is so important. But to this gentleman, it's like, okay, that's all part of himself. And so when I say to people, well, that's your inner Trump, I'm basically challenging them to own their own vitriolic, because uh, at times they're very, they're very expressive in their disdain or dislike of the president. So from my perspective, that's the challenge. It's like, okay, you're you're being dislike the thing that you hate, which is classic stuff. We do it all the time. So yes, I would definitely take it into a deeper level of of understanding for himself, because it's not about, obviously not about Trump. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

And and it in some ways, it becomes a way by which to enter in those conversations by lowering defenses and saying this isn't really about your liked or disliked.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Or or he's supposed to really like Trump and he needs to come to grips with that because that's he's a he's in his dream, so come on.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yeah. You do a great service as a coach or therapist to try and keep people on the surface, externalizing everything, and never going to Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

It's just about that. You don't like highbrow people, that's great. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

I have a delightful client, but one of the issues over and over and over again is I'll ask a question that seems to me to be so obvious about the inner workings. And I'll get a story about the external interaction with one more person that kind of fits the pattern that she's in. So it's so true. And patiently listen to that and say, that's great. And it's another wonderful example, but let's take that inward. So with this client, the question seems to be one of the questions that seems to draw him inward is to say, look, so let's talk a little bit about this feeling of being exposed.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Being in front of a crowd and Because on some level, on some level in the dream, he's tr he would like to expose the highbrow people, he would like to expose all these people. So that again, there's a projection piece in that, even at some level, that he may want to he may want to expose, so but his great fear is being exposed. And that's uh again, classic projectionist as far as I expose people that uh that I don't want to be exposed myself. I mean, I have a really great friend who uh challenged me last week, and she said, you know, when you when you said that about me, I really felt like, you know, you're painting me in a bad light and you were exposing me. She goes, you know, I I really I really spend lots of time and energy not doing that to you. And and you you talked about being a negative one. I go, okay, you you are aware that I understand that. I I said I can I can see how you would see that because I did I was having fun and I teased you a little bit. But you do know you you do that same thing. You tell everybody everything. But I said you may expose me in a in a good light, but you you shoot. She goes, Oh, I don't do that. I go, Yeah, you kind of do. So that's that's classic stuff, you know. We can see in others what we can't see in ourselves, but we're oftentimes doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

So Yeah, I can see how it'd be hard to have you as a friend the way you just turn the question in the other direction over and over again. Yeah. So I guess that's speaking from experience. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Probably so. You know, I I just need to quit talking sometimes. Anyway, I mentioned I mean, let's get back to the dream. I apologize. I went off on a little tangent there. But I think the idea is that, you know, how how did he how'd you process the uh the exposure and the clothing and all that?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

In this particular case, and it doesn't always turn out this way, but in this particular case, it led to a good conversation about the kinds of things that happen in his life, focusing particularly in the most recent days, but where he feels exposed, you know, where uh probably a better word is to say where he feels vulnerable, where he feels like others are looking on and wondering about their judgment, feeling like some of the the protections that give him safety are less certain than they've been in the past. And so that that's been a wonderful pathway of discussion to dig a little bit deeper in that. And if for no other reason, it uh it felt like it gave him safe space to talk about some things that are not easy to talk about with people. So I I would like to dig back a little bit more if you'd help us. One of the issues with the shadow side is that it is it resides in the unconscious, and how do you bring things up from the unconscious to consciousness to become more aware of them? Dreams obviously give you one of those opportunities. But I just generally speaking, when you when you are working with somebody that it just seems like they have some blind spots, I know you've talked numerous times about asking the kind of prodding question that allows the defenses to come down a little bit, just enough to expose that. But when let's say in couples therapy, a spouse brings things up and a partner just doesn't see it, kind of in denial, is there a an approach that a spouse can take to try and lower that defense a little bit and dig a little bit deeper into that shadow side?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

This may not directly address that question, but I think we'll I think we'll get there. For me, the the depending on what the obviously the the the question is, I will often point out their attraction. So if if let's say a wife points out a trait that she wishes her husband would be more sensitive to, typically the wife has that trait. And so I will say to the man, I say, you were attracted to her, right? And of course they hopefully still say yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

So you have to look at the attraction and see what part you need to integrate into your life. And so it's not as clear to see that because they live that that part out. And so we we get kind of used to that, as opposed to realizing you need to integrate some of those traits into yourselves. So that's one of the one of the initial ways that I'll try to do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

I love that. So let's apply that as a dream. We've got two components that seem to be for this client that instead of being attracted to, he's kind of repulsed by. So the flip side of that, he's got a power figure in the embodied by the Trump figure and a highbrow group of people. Couldn't that same question be applied to those things that you vilify or push against, that there's something there that you need to integrate or look at because it's something that you project onto others.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Oh, yeah, you know. It's creating if if it's creating a a good bit of negative energy and kind of an irrational response, absolutely you have that trait inside of you. And you do not want to see it. And so that that's excuse me. That's trickier because then you have to really get into self-reflection and try to get them to identify ways in which they've expressed that. Their intolerance, their judgments, their quick dismissal of people, whatever that looks like, that would say that that's a way of pointing out that same trait and say, oh, that's that's what you do in this situation. So this that's always that's always tough because you're breaking through a denial system that they don't want to see because they're too fragile. And again, the angrier you are about someone, the more likely it is you have the that same dynamic in you. It's like the people that yell and scream about about Nazis or dictatorships. Well, they're yelling and screaming, and they they're expressing the same trait.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, great point. I felt like it was a very positive sign in the dream when he was required to take off his clothing that he started disrobing and he thought to himself in the dream, I I think I'll be just fine in my underwear. Yeah. And that there is a a willingness to be exposed and see where that takes him. And I thought that was positive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Where where did that come in the dream?

SPEAKER_01 19:47

Is it towards the end or no, that was at the very beginning uh where um the requirement to go to this trial was to disrobe. And he thought he was going to be okay with that. Yeah. Um so uh we kind of did this in season one, but I'd like you to take me a step further. So this gentleman would fall into the static side of the Peter.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Exactly. So there probably would be some value in identifying what he might miss out if he doesn't pay attention to that initiating energy within him. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Right. Or where does he need to initiate? And the fact that he disrobed, it was the beginning of that.

unknown 20:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

And so yeah, no, that's again, that's another way of looking at the static personality, and they bring order to things, but where do they need to initiate? Or do they need to push themselves into more of a dynamic mode? And again, you everybody, I mean, you kind of you kind of know that even a even a treatment for depression is movement. Mild, mild to moderate, not not severe, obviously, but mild depression is to keep moving, is to make a plan and to implement it. And if you're a static personality by nature and you have some depression in you, that's really a tall task. And so it'd be interesting to know how many people dream dreams of doing things that are trying to push the individual to more action. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Um I also noted in the dream that there were no, as far as I could tell, and according to his description, no feminine imagery at all. And it seems like a fair question to ask. What would the feminine voice bring to this? Aaron Powell Clothing can be a feminine image. It's a great point. Great point. Especially the uh French cuff and watch plaid slash.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. Not to be too stereotypical, but yes, that would be uh that would be a little bit of feminine energy.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Aaron Ross Powell So the fact that he shows up at the trial dressed, even though he had gone through the process of disrobing and being exposed, there is At least an interesting avenue of pursuit to say it feels like there is a feminine voice providing some direction or covering for your journey. So what do you think that feminine voice is expressing or doing for you?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Right. And and you again, this might take it a little different different direction, but the feminine voice that's being expressed, the static feminine voice, is uh the negative set side of that is bringing away too much order, too much criticism, too much judgment. That's the feminine energy in the negative form because it's relationally driven. I'm trying to, I'm judging you. I'm judging the Trump image in the dream, I'm judging uh the highbrow people in the dream. That's a relational, negative feminine energy. So it'd be interesting to know if most of his negative if most of his feminine energy had a negative tint to it.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

And one of the things to pursue would be go back to family of origin issues and see if there were some patterns that he grabbed onto that is the way that his family handled emotion.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Right. Absolutely true.

unknown 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

And so that's why I'm saying it. That the the feminine energy that he's probably wanting to access is the responder, the more nurturing aspect of the feminine energy.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

And this is one of the reasons why I love dreams so much, is a simple dream that seems rather humorous and easy to dismiss can lead to all kinds of self-awareness questions and take you deeper and deeper.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

And plus it's it's for the most part more non-threatening.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Absolutely. I agree with that. I find that very advantageous.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I can't I can't blame anybody else for my dream.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah. Nobody forced you to put that person in the dream.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Absolutely true. So, yep.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Good place for us to uh step off on this episode. I hope some others might submit some dreams that we can look at and apply this personality approach to this and dig a little bit deeper into the shadow side of things. Thanks, Jim. Thank you, Dee. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, now it's good stuff.