S2E10 The Bold Move

We talk through why people feel emotionally, relationally, and vocationally stuck even after making major life changes. We unpack the difference between external bold moves and internal bold moves, and how dreams and self-awareness can help us live with more authenticity. 
  • defining “bold moves” for static and dynamic personalities 
  • why changing the environment can still repeat the same cycle 
  • recognizing the core judgments and patterns that keep returning 
  • how low nurturing and self-esteem get triggered by public feedback 
  • using Adlerian “mistaken beliefs” to explain midlife pattern breaks 
  • practicing gratitude for survival strategies that no longer fit 
  • separating insight from action, especially around speaking up 
  • how dream characters can reveal underheard parts of the self 
  • reparenting ourselves and choosing health over familiar dysfunction 
  • how the unconscious can create crises for permission to feel and change 
  • individuation in adolescence and “vocational individuation” at work 
  • bringing people pleasing into awareness and challenging it in real time 
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome everyone to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. My name is Dee Kelly, and this is Jim Shaley. Hello, Dee, for another episode. It's nice to be with you as always. Nice to be with you. And we're kind of jumping into the middle of a conversation we've been having about what it feels like to be stuck emotionally, relationally, vocationally, all of those ways that sometimes we feel like there's no movement that we've plateaued and what it takes to move us past that. And we have contended, I think, for many episodes in one way or another, that increased self-awareness helps us push past some of that sense of feeling stuck or plateaued if we will know ourselves better and then maybe through that self-awareness have some vision as to where we're wanting to go. But you've often mentioned, Jim, um the notion of making a big move, a something that gets you out of the rut that you're in. Could you could you just give us maybe an example or um uh put a little bit of flesh on that statement to help us understand what that might look like in somebody's life?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, there's a coup there are a couple different dynamics of it, in the sense that uh when I use the term bold move, it's like someone comes in and says they feel stuck, they feel like they're repeating the same patterns, and so I will encourage them to make a bold move. So that can actually spark some great change. And then on the other hand, a bold move could be well, let me let me say it a different way. The static personality that we've talked about might make a bold move and change jobs, move to a different state, start over, and that could be incredibly significant change for them. Dynamic personality might have made several bold moves, but often finds them back in the same cycle of the bold moves. So there's a false sense that the bold move has created some change when it really hasn't. And for the static personality, a bold move does create change. Then the challenge becomes if they're in a new state or in a new job, do they begin to repeat some old patterns? So, really, the larger conversation is about the bold move internally. What pattern happens inside someone that keeps them stuck in this kind of uh experiencing something over and over again? The same personalities come into my life. Uh, I may get divorced, and I end up marrying this a similar personality type. All those things can signify there hasn't been really an understanding of the core judgment that someone has made inside that keeps repeating itself. And so we move to a new job, we move to a new a new spouse, perhaps, and then we end up end up realizing, wait a minute, I've been here before. Yeah. Because I think so.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

If I'm hearing you correctly, if I make a bold move without having done any internal work, then and it's primarily an external bold move. All I have done is simply changed the environment or the outward circumstances, but I haven't changed the dynamic. I haven't changed the inner ways in which I operate or how I attract or push away people. And so if the bold move is not accompanied by some inner change, uh it uh inner change, then um I'll just repeat a pattern that's been there.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Like if I know I know that I struggle with self-esteem, let's say, and I make a bold move to try to address it, but I haven't really addressed the sense of self that I that I carry with me, then uh in the in the bold move, I'll begin to repeat the same pattern. I'll attract a similar personality into my life, wh whatever that looks like. And that's that's the hard part. It's like it's like people that have been on one side of thought, like let's just use the example of they could have been raised conservative, and then as they become evolved, they they and they were very rigid conservative, and then they flip completely to more liberal, and they become as rigid as being liberal as they were conservative. Well, they haven't changed. They've just the the pattern is the same. They're still pretty rigid. And I see that happening a lot in people's lives, even today. It's like they flip back and forth, but they're they they think they're really different, but no, they're still pretty rigid in their in their views of how life is supposed to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Let me give you an example that um I've come across on numerous occasions that I think fit with what you're saying. And that is an individual who didn't receive the nurture and care as a child. So um they grew up feeling like they weren't good enough. And so in an effort to make a bold move, they try and put themselves out there in some type of public arena. And as often happens in today's public arena, you might get some positive affirmation, but you'll also get somebody who rips on you for whatever reason. And if a person hasn't wrestled with that lack of nurturing and self-esteem and where it originates, then they will be devastated by the feedback and will retreat again and fall back into old patterns of beating themselves up, that they're not um, shouldn't have done that in the first place, not good enough to try it. And so giving them giving an individual some tools, some insights to self-awareness so that the shift became begins to change inwardly and almost to prepare ahead of time that you're going to be confronted with the very thing that's hard for you. So, what's the new tape you play? What's the bold move inwardly that you challenge that uh with in the journey? Not easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

It's kind of like in the uh the Adlerian way that I was trained, it's like there's a process you go through to identify your mistaken beliefs. And uh usually in midlife they show up. Well, until they they work. In other words, I may make a judgment as a child, I have to be this way in order to fit in. So that's a mistake and belief. So as I live my life, I get to midlife realizing that that's causing me trouble now. It's no longer working. So I have to shift that mistake and belief, and I I often joke by saying to a new mistake and belief.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

That's actually excellent.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah. Uh that's more that that satisfies my life at this point. And I think that's what we're talking about. It's like, how do we change those internal beliefs, given the context of my life now? Do I still need to have that mistake and belief? That's the phrase I use a lot with people when they're trying to change an internal sense of self.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

That's a great framework through which to see this. I often find that individuals who struggle with a pattern that worked for a long time but now no longer works, and they often, this isn't always true, universally true, but they often battle that as if it's a uh an enemy. And one of the things that if it seems appropriate, I will encourage someone to do is to recognize with gratitude how something has helped you to survive. It's true it's no longer working for you, but instead of creating this inner battle filled with all kinds of angst and frustration, recognize that when you're an infant, you have no resources to survive. And you spend those years developing patterns to receive what you need to survive. Absolutely true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

And they became and they become profound ways to function. Yeah. And because we develop in kind of an unconscious way, they seem like they're always going to work. And then at midlife, it's like, oh, this don't work anymore. This doesn't work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Because you don't need to use those same behaviors anymore to for the resources that you need. You have access to them. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Absolutely true. Yeah. You're you're now the one with resources. And you're living as if you have none. And so, yeah, that that so there's an example for me where um for someone, it feels like there is an acknowledgement. You know, it's like an insight moment. Um yeah, I can acknowledge that that that helped me to survive. And now it's not as necessary as it was back then.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

And sometimes somebody But the bold move is developing a new way to survive. Yes. What thing do I need to develop right now to survive in my life at this present time?

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Which is my point that very often people, when they gain new knowledge, think that they have fixed the problem. Yes. So uh yeah, great. We're done talking. I I get it. I get the information.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

And and the the scary, the the more challenging part really is let's say I've been quiet, I've stayed quiet most of my life because it just wasn't worth it as a kid to speak up. And now I'm in a relationship that is borderline abusive or certainly controlling or dominating, and I need to speak up. Well, again, the the to your point, the intellectual assent that, yeah, I need to speak up. Yeah, you're right. I need to speak up. You're right. Yes, I do. Yeah, it gives you a false sense of, okay, I've spoken up, right? No. You had the great idea. Right. And it's that bold move of I'm gonna risk speaking up and seeing if my if if my vo if I can respect my my voice in a new way.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Yeah. Um, I think we've had a little bit more of an emphasis this season on dreams. Very often I will have a client who has a character that will show up in a dream that represents a part of them that is very undeveloped, underdeveloped. And it raises the question of what part of you is not being heard by your decision making or in your action. And there is often this uh insightful moment where they go, yeah, I don't usually do this. And I said, Well, why would that part of you be striving so much in your dreams for your attention when your defenses are down, when you are in a posture of um being able to hear other parts of who you are? And this uh aha moment of insight. But then the question that follows is, but yeah, so now what? How does it become part of the decision making? How does it become part of your daily life? It's not it's not just acknowledgement that it's there. It's not even just acceptance of that part of who you are. It's assimilating that part into what you actually do and how you live. And that then becomes a rather frightening endeavor because it leaves you in the space of the unknown. And we've said this numerous times that as dysfunctional as something might be, if it's familiar to you, it's far more comfortable to live in the familiarity of dysfunction than it is to step into the unknown of health.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

And uh again, look at the comparison of you developed these patterns as a child unconsciously to respond to your environment. Kind of. I mean, yeah. Oh, no, I agree. And so then as an adult, I now have to parent myself consciously and on purpose choose strategies that are more adaptive in my life. Well, that that sucks. Can I kind of go unconscious for a while and develop these things so I don't have to take responsibility for them in some ways? I d I just did air quotes for those that are listening.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I like that language. I've heard it before, but maybe not in this exact context that I have to parent myself to change my consciously to change my whole sense of the resources I have at my access, how I access those resources, how I live now to address the circumstances of where I am in life and reparenting yourself. What a wonderful visual of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

And a lot of people will do it again. Um, midlife crisis, midlife evaluation, whatever you want to call it, they will do it a little bit unconsciously because they will be so at the end of themselves. So they may leave a job prematurely, they may leave a marriage prematurely, they may do all these bold moves unconsciously a little bit because they're so at the end they don't know what else to do. Because think about it, it it's easier to uh excuse anger if I if I get pushed to it, as opposed to if I just am angry for no for no apparent reason. But if you push me to it, well then it's okay. As opposed to owning the fact that I'm really you're making me really angry before you get to the point of exploding.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

And so we create unconsciously, we create situations that give us permission to express the emotions that we have.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

And then we can blame others.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because if we bring them to consciousness, we have to own them. We have to take responsibility for them. Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

And that's being an adult. It's like uh do you do do people get up in the morning and say, you know, I'm really unhappy, so I'm gonna tell my spouse that I've uh really uh I've kind of developed a relationship with uh Sally at work, and uh I think we're gonna go ahead and uh start dating a little bit, but I wanted you to kind of be aware of it uh because this isn't as satisfying as it once was. So uh if you want to pursue divorce, we can do that. Yeah, who nobody does that. I mean, is that healthier? It's weirder in some ways and maybe healthier, but ultimately we wait until the attraction gets to a point and then we just act on it, and that gives us permission to kind of do something else. And I know I mean very few people in their 40s, 30s, and 40s wake up and say, Yep, think about having an affair today.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah. They they just yes, like the unconscious creates a crisis to address the broken inward journey. And and that is part of uh what I think drives, we've talked about this a little bit, but the notion of individuation. Individuation is typically referred to adolescents who are trying to break away from their family system. And that often that happens unconsciously as teenagers act out, do things to create independence. And ultimately, the purpose of that is that they leave and establish their own life and begin an independent journey. But there is also I refer to it as vocational individuation, when I'm not happy in my job, or when there's something in me that knows that I'm not not going to be fulfilled ultimately through this job, that it starts unconsciously creating division and crisis moments and confrontations where I can have the excuse that, yeah, this just doesn't seem to be working anymore, and blame it on the boss, blame it on it's it's the whole notion between senioritis and college. Seniors, many seniors go down the pathway of a school and a place that they loved and enjoyed. Their senior year, they find everything wrong with it. It's the food, it's the classroom, it's the faculty, it's the freshman, and complain about it. And it's because they're needing to push away from that environment and establish a new life.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, we create the emotions to move the direction we want to move. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah. If individuation was a little more conscious, I think everybody would a little bit better off.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Oh, geez. Yeah, if humans would be just more purposeful and own what they want to do and take responsibility for it, wow. That'd be wild, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah. And I think behind all of this, where we've been getting that is if if everybody was more like you, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Well, Dean, you know, not everybody sees that, but I appreciate you. I appreciate you seeing it.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

That's where both these seasons have been going to.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Yeah, that's uh that's delusional, my friend. Uh at the heart of that though is I would say you're projecting a little bit. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Thank you. Um at the heart of that though is really the notion that we are trying to work toward being more authentic ourselves, who we truly are.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Absolutely. Owning, owning our journey, saying, hey, this is what I want to do. Um it's still hard. I mean, you still want to please people, you still want to not be looked down upon. I mean, and there's all kinds of, you know, it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

There is a big difference, though. You're right. It's it's work, but there is a big difference between wanting to please people and that being a strong driving unconscious issue and knowing that you want to please people, bringing that to the surface, and knowing when it has to be pushed against, when you have to um say, no, that's not the direction I'm going to go, no, that opinion's not going to change my um. I had that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I had that conversation this week with a couple clients about uh the difference between just being able to identify in any conversation, oh, I I really want to please this person, as opposed to just being in the conversation. And that just being that self-aware of why is it so important for me to really get an affirmation from this person? That's interesting. Yeah. And then you dig into what they represent to you, all the stuff we've talked about with dreams and and other stuff. Uh that's that's just good stuff in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Yeah. I it's it's usually the second or third question that starts to open up new insight for you. I want to please them. Huh. I wonder why them, why that person, and what that says about something that's connected to my past and where that would take me if I bring that to a greater level of consciousness. It's uh a great way by which to dig deeper into life's journey. Well, um, this has been helpful to me, and that's probably all that matters right now, right? So I'll be listening to the case.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Well, and if it's helpful to somebody out there, well, good uh, good, who cares? That's not true, Jim. I care. We do appreciate uh all the listeners. That's been very cool. Lots of good feed from those listening, and uh hopefully it does help.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yeah. And grateful for the questions when they come up because a lot of this is born out of the questions that we receive either from listeners or from clients. And uh it's great to have that interaction. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

And and I think one of the things we tried to address today is that it's oftentimes we feel stuck because there's a pattern deep in deep in our s deep inside of us that was developed at a time when we didn't know what was being developed and it gets keeps coming around and around and around, like the old Mary Goran when you're a kid.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

So one of the things that I love to say when somebody feels like something's deeply wrong with them that they feel stuck, I say, wow, how incredibly human of you. I mean, it is it is part of human nature to have seasons where you feel like you're stuck and then they present wonderful opportunities, like you say, um, about very difficult moments. I think feeling stuck is also a uh a doorway, a doorway that can lead to some wonderful growth. And so hopefully um this gives us a few tools to help us to move through that door and become uh more authentic in how we're living. Great to be with you, Jim. Great to be with you, Dave. Thanks. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might. might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah now that's good stuff.