S2E11 Your Night Shift Therapist Is On Duty

Dreams aren’t just strange stories your brain invents at night. They can be a practical pathway to self-awareness, emotional regulation, and real change, especially when you learn how to work with them. Dee Kelley and Jim Shalley, a coach and a therapist, share a grounded approach to dream work built on clear principles you can actually use. 

We start by laying out ten principles that guide healthy approach to dreams, then go deeper on two that matter a lot for day-to-day mental health: paying attention to the emotional weight of the last couple of days and doing dream work with someone safe. We talk about why dreams can act like a “nighttime therapist” by nudging you toward emotional mindfulness, and why sleep hygiene is still the most basic, most powerful mental health practice you can protect. 

From there, we widen the lens to therapy and coaching. We unpack what an objective guide adds, how reframing and flexible thinking help you break distorted patterns, and why simply saying a scary thought out loud can bring huge relief. We also tackle the reality of plateaus, including what to ask when progress stalls, when supportive therapy is valuable, and how to keep growing if you can’t afford therapy right now. 

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Welcome And Season Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. My name is Dee Kelly, and I'm your co-host along with Jim Shaley. And we are a coach and a therapist who love exploring personality and all of the implications that that has for relationships, vocation, personal growth. We are in season two, and we are given a particular emphasis this season to the use of dreams and other tools to gain greater self-awareness, understand ourselves in unique ways.

Ten Principles For Dream Work

SPEAKER_00 0:45

And I'd love to start off with something I've referred to and talked about in a couple of episodes, but I'd like to start off naming the ten principles that I use in dream work. And then Jim's going to join in and we're going to talk about a couple of these. The ten principles are these. First, protect your sleep. It's essential to your health, and it is the doorway through which dreams come. Second is value your dreams. Most of us, at least in our culture, consider them the white noise or uh artifacts of evolution that just continue, and we don't pay attention to them. I suggest maybe you shift your posture a bit and value your dreams. Practice remembering your dreams is principle number three. You can increase your ability to remember. Many people don't remember them at all. Um, and there are some simple steps to take to remember your dreams. Fourth is to learn the language of dreams and not just the general language, though that's important, and the symbols that are often involved in dreams, but your personal dialect. Dreams are incredibly subjective, and that's what makes them perfect for reflection and personal growth. They are unique to you, they are created out of your psyche. They have a biological purpose to them, and they are involved in emotional regulation. Pay attention to them, but the images have a unique subjective nature. So learn not only the language of dreams, but your personal dialect. Set aside dream dictionaries. They probably don't help you much at this point in the journey, though paying attention to symbols can. The sixth is pay attention to the emotional content of the previous two days. Dreams often point us toward emotional weight that we are carrying, and the emphasis is typically bent toward the previous two days of our journey. So pay attention to that emotional content that you've had. Number seven is to do this with someone else. It's always helpful to be engaged with somebody else because they can ask questions, see blind spots, make sure it's somebody who's safe. Number eight is familiarize yourself with a theory of personality and see how it might apply to your dream work and to your personal growth. Number nine is pay attention to the shadow and the ways in which it shows up in dreams and shows up in your life. And then the tenth principle is take action. What kind of action would be the appropriate response to the things that you are learning about yourself? So these are the 10 principles of dream work that I use over and over again. And we're going to jump into a couple of these and take it a little bit deeper in terms of how we might put some things into practice in our own life. Hope you enjoy this episode.

Dreams And The Last Two Days

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Jim, I've mentioned a couple of times the 10 principles of dream work. Um, and we've talked about a few of the principles, but I'd love to jump to number six and number seven of my list of how to do dream work. Number six is pay attention to the emotional content of the emotional weight of the last couple of days, because I'm convinced that dreams, to a large extent, this isn't all that they do, but they try and um navigate the emotional weight that we have experienced in the last couple of days to try and regulate our emotional capacity and to process memories so that they can be used in the future. Um and so it is really an emotional mindfulness that occurs, which I think if dreams do nothing more than make you emotionally mindful, then that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah, no, absolutely. Uh one of the challenges is if you if you don't have access to a therapist or to a coach or whatever, you you have one inside your head.

unknown 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah. So that if you really get discipline, and I know it's a hassle sometimes to wake up and write your dreams down, but if you if you do that, it can certainly be uh reminiscent of a coach or a therapist, something to process.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah. So that's a great bridge.

Why Dream Work Needs Safety

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I appreciate you saying that, um, to number seven in the principles, and that is do dream work with someone. And I want to clarify that dream work is so subjective and it's intensely personal, and a lot of the work is done on your own, but there's something so valuable in meeting with somebody to talk about things. So that can be a therapist, it can be a coach, it can be a priest, it can be a friend, it can be a dream group. There are any number of ways, but it needs to be safe space where you can say some of the craziness of the dream.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Absolutely. Some dreams. I have several clients who come in and say, I had a really crazy dream last night. And they'll talk about that. So yeah, you're right. Doing it with somebody else and having the safety to be able to do that. Because, you know, to your point, you can take dreams and it's such a subjective reality in some ways. Some people want to take it externally and do make some interesting choices based upon what they think the dream said. Obviously our bias, or at least my bias, is it's it's an internal journey saying something about me.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

So Yeah, exactly. Um, I had somebody two weeks ago. They were willing to tell me that they had the dream, but it was so intentionally emotional, so intensely emotional that immediately after sharing the dream, the response was, but I don't want to talk about it. Okay. I I will respect that. And I did respect it. But that's one of the issues. They can Did you want to act it out? Kind of like pantomime it? Would you that's right. Uh but the the response to dreams can be so emotionally triggering that somebody might feel like they're not ready to make the content public.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yeah, especially if they're if they struggle being vulnerable anyway. Absolutely. Yeah. That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

So Yeah. So uh talk

What Therapy And Coaching Add

SPEAKER_00 7:08

to me for a few moments. And it not about dreams, but just issues in general. Talk about the advantage of stepping into therapy or coaching, um, stepping into an arrangement where you're talking to somebody that feels safe. And I think sometimes one of the advantages of therapy is talking to somebody who's objective. They don't know all of your history, and you can talk about it with them. So just kind of the notion of why, if you can afford therapy or a coach, what are some of the real upsides of meeting with somebody about your personal journey? Uh that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

It's like um uh the value of finding out that thoughts that you have in your head may not be all that great. And so we're we're tied into our own thinking style, so we oftentimes don't even know something is being really uh distorted or dysfunctional because it's what we were raised with, it's what we know, and we don't it's like um it's like people raised in a in a kind of a crazy house. They go visit a friend's house, and it's like, oh, you people like talk to each other and you're kind of nice to each other, and is this is weird. So, yeah, it's kind of like that. It's like, can I really trust my frame of reference? Uh, if you have nobody to bounce that off of, whether it be a friend, a therapist, uh, you know, whoever. A therapist is uniquely, or a coach is uniquely designed in my mind, uh, to your point. They don't know your history, they may not know a lot about you. And so they're able to really give you feedback on how they experience you in the moment. Um, I use that frame a lot in therapy. I'll I'll just simply say, you know, if they get if they react strongly to something I might say, I'll say, that's just how I'm experiencing you at this moment. Could be different, but that's how I'm experiencing you. And that's through my own filters as well, but that's how you're coming across. The value of that, I think, uh speaks for itself in the sense of trying to just see if the way I think really um is healthy. And one of my one of my tenets really is flexibility of thinking. I've got to be able to hold opposite opposite thoughts uh and not decide one is right and one is wrong, but to ha to had opposing to hold opposing thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

You've mentioned flexible thinking before, and I completely agree with the value of um nurturing that in a person's life. And I think that one of the great advantages of a therapist or a coach, as you just said, is that they pose a different viewpoint. They present, hopefully in a very safe environment, a way for you to look at an issue in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Just like to say, what if what if you looked at it this way? It's like that the the latest book by uh the um I forget his name now, but he wrote a book about reframe your brain. The basic concept is that you know how you look at something is profound. And you can you can literally choose how to look at something, even though it may not feel like it at the time. I think a therapist or a coach can help someone bridge that gap to see the possibility of that. Whereas if I'm left to my own, I may not be able to get out of that mindset of, well, this is the right way to think. And that's why that's why rapport or trust or or allowing someone to speak truly willingly is the most important part of of coaching or therapy. Because if I don't do that, if I'm not willing, then I'll then the the client will will fight back. And they'll which may not be a good or bad, but sometimes they'll fight back because they don't want they're not as open to the the reframe as as they probably need to be at times.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

I like that a lot. Thank you. I I would also um earlier you gave an example of somebody who may to be need to be challenged in the way they think to see a different perspective. Um in a similar vein, but I feel like it's kind of on the other end of the spectrum, is someone who comes um into therapy or coaching, and they are panicked that the thoughts they have are like weird, way off the charts, abnormal. And to normalize some of those things can bring such a relief and decrease the anxiety level to say, yeah, that sounds really human to me. Let's look into why you might have that thought.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Absolutely. Or or even to get them to say it out loud.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

So that's that alone.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, that alone will be like, oh, the world didn't end? I said it out loud. Yeah, the world didn't end yet.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

So very often, uh and we've talked about the individuation process from parents from a job, from faith, a church. Um, to say something that goes against your faith upbringing, um, particularly if you've internalized uh the language of a church or the language of your parents, feels uh kind of frightening to some people. And to provide a safe space to actually discuss that is incredibly valuable.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Uh yeah, just the power of uh early on in my life, having the moment when I I had a thought that was completely opposed to everything I'd been trained to think. And the lightning didn't strike and I I kept breathing. Um that was a profound moment in my early 30s where I thought, oh, I can I can think that thought. Um yeah. I think to your point, uh Walf said is like it to normalize it and go, okay. Yeah, we all have thoughts. Which ones which ones do you want to hold on to in the context of your life?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah. Or at the very least, which ones can we just talk about right now? Absolutely. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think also the advantage of therapist, a coach, a spiritual guide. Um I think one of the advantages there is for somebody who doesn't have a history with me, they often had the ability to ask questions that I haven't considered or I haven't considered in a long time. Yes. Like a good friend or a spouse, they've learned what subjects not to address. And so they don't give them up anymore. And I think it's very advantageous to have somebody who s just follows whatever comments you've made with, you know, I'm curious. I hear you say this. And that simple question can send you on a new pathway of thought that can carry you for months of growth.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Absolutely true. And the key ingredient is there's no agenda. It just that was a question I asked. I don't care if you answer it, don't answer it. It it's not, there's not a right or wrong answer. That safety, emotional safety, is crucial. That's why there are so many um requirements of therapy and coaching in some ways. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

As there ought to be. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay, so someone comes to a point.

Getting Unstuck When Progress Plateaus

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Uh I'm going to take several scenarios and I'll tell you them ahead of time. Um there's a plateau in therapeutic work. Uh almost inevitable if somebody stays in it long enough, it feels like they plateau.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Um getting getting them to it to admit that if there's a really strong relationship with the coach or the therapist can be challenging. So they like the conversations. I'm not I'll probably take it in a different direction. They like the conversation and they they feel like they're not making progress. So it's in my opinion, it's incumbent upon the therapist or the coach to say, How are we doing? Are we making progress? So that you you kind of you uh ask those questions to make sure they're that you know there's still movement, because sometimes they'll be hesitant to bring it up because they like the conversations enough. And then on the other hand, there are some that are very bold, and they'll say, you know, we ain't making enough progress. And I'll say, because you ain't doing what I tell you to do. Enough said, let's move on. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

You're stuck, I'm not stuck. I'm going to go home. So this uh let's stay here then with this. A plateau in therapy, and you just describe two very different personalities. One who um is bold and steps into those conversations and is willing to say that they're not getting enough. And then there's another person who is so invested kind of relationally in that uh moment that they're hesitant to say anything. So let's start with the very bold person.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Um again, they're usually back to our other for framework, they're usually dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

So they're gonna bring the dynamic steps into those places with relatively little hesitation because they've learned that that's one of the formulas for success in their life, so they repeat a pattern that's been successful in the past. Yep. So they step into it. What's kind what's a response that a person like that might hear that will actually help them move past that plateau?

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, it's a great question. It's like saying basically, uh, so is there something in your life that you know you should be doing, but you're not? Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Even dynamic people will ha will have that. Because they'll they they can use a dynamic energy way over here doing something, but not what they really need to be doing. Yeah, it's like a deflection point. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean that brings up such a really good conversation because it's almost always true, and that they use it to identify much more easily than the static personality where they where they should be where they I should be doing this. So then why aren't you doing it?

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah. I I've also found that sometimes with those types of individuals, they will attempt, consciously or unconsciously, to guide the conversation around that past that internal work. Like they'll nod when you confront it or bring it up, but then very quickly the conversation goes someplace else. Yeah, that's very true. And you wait about three or four minutes and you go, so do you want to go back? You want to put the car in reverse? Let's go back. Okay. So somebody who is really reluctant to bring it up, and like I know you said, um, a good therapist will notice that and ask the question. But let's say there is this sense of plateau that's taken place, um, and somebody is hesitant to be that confrontive or direct. What do you suggest?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Oh if it's acknowledged that we're a plateau, then you simply ask the the easy question, which is are you okay with that? Now interesting, sometimes they'll say, well no, because they they want to stay in therapy and grow. Others will go, you know, maybe I am. Well then they have to confront, have we have we achieved all we need to achieve in the coaching or the therapy relationship? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Great response. Thanks, Chip.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Most of the time, I think most of the time they would say, No, well, no, of course not. Then I would ask the next question is so where is it that you would like to make changes or still work on something and put it back on them? And well, I'm not sure, what do you think? And I go, Well, this is unfortunately it's not my journey. It's yours. So you want me to pick one for you?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's in those moments, it's also uh uh which is basically the question you were just asking is so where are you hoping to go with this? What is it you're wanting to accomplish that feels like it's plateaued? Yeah. It because um I have to own my own journey, like you do, like any client that comes in.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

This is your journey, and the whole point of this is to empower the individual to make the kind of change and growth that they're it's and I will also, depending on how that question gets answered, I will I've done this uh several times over the years, where I will say, okay, well, we can kind of shift from insight-driven change to more supportive therapy. So if you find value in talking through things, but not necessarily creating for great change or there's not a lot of internal angst, then therapy becomes more supportive and we can just have conversations. And I do that for several of my clients who have a conversation with me they would never have with anybody else. Because I over the years you've developed a safety with them. And I think there's value- I used to wonder about that because there's so much focus in our culture of progress and change and those things that I think we underestimate just the the power of support. Like yesterday, I have a guy, and uh sometimes we talk about cars, sometimes we talk about, you know, state of the world. So many things can take on a supportive type of a relationship. Especially if they're in a m difficult marriage or there's they're married to an addict or something like that. They just they need a safe space to go and just talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

And I have found that even those would feel like one-off conversations where you're going down a pathway that just seems like a like a human interest story, but uh an area of their interest, that often it can lead, because you know the history, it can lead to a very insightful question that gets them to go inward again and further that journey. Yeah, that's true. So um different scenario instead of a plateauing moment, um you've got somebody you know that can't afford they're at a point where they can't afford a coach, they can't afford a therapist.

Growth Without Paying For Therapy

SPEAKER_00 22:05

And um they certainly can look for a place that does sliding scale of some sort. But let's just say that really unaffordable. So what's the suggestion for somebody who's wanting to grow and has to address some issues, but they can't afford that kind of help? What kind of thoughts do you have on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

It depends on the stability of their life. Obviously. So if if their life is somewhat financially stable but just not capable of providing funds for therapy and they're motivated, that goes back to what we talked about before, is paying attention to their dreams and investing in that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

You have any others you could add? I think there are a lot of things that somebody can do that provides relief for some of the stress or anxiety that they have. One is a constant reminder to attempt to stay in the day today that we have things we ruminate on that's from the past and we have tons of anxiety about what's going to happen in the future. And if we can acknowledge the things that kind of stir up that past rumination, regrets, guilt, whatever it might be, and then say, but I'm going to live in today and pay attention to my emotions today, my life today, my journey today. Depending on what the need is for a person, I just think there are some simple steps like that that can help somebody who can't afford to go talk to somebody right now, or as often is the case, in between sessions to put into practice some principles that people need because it's two weeks to my next appointment or for some people it's a month to my next appointment. Right. And so I think teaching people some practices is always a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

The other thing too is that um if you're a person of faith, there are uh churches you can go to uh you know a lot of Catholics will go light a candle. There there's those kind of ways to cope as well. I may not do uh verbal processing but it certainly can stay connected to the moment to your point.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yep. And one of the reasons that I think dreams are very powerful um some people have referred to them as their nighttime therapist every night it's doing work whether we pay attention to them or not. But if we realize that dreams often address the emotional weight of the last two days, as I said a few minutes ago, that emotional mindfulness is an incredible pathway toward health paying attention to where my emotions are taking me and what triggers them and then listening to the dreams as to the insights they might give can be incredibly helpful. Absolutely yeah the most important thing you can pay attention to for mental health is get a good night's sleep. So whether you see anybody or not.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

So you were about to say something the intangible part of all this or the real tangible part is uh level of interest.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Ah yeah take that a step further though the level of interest of the coach or therapist no just generally level of interest.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

It could be anything uh no the level of interest by the individual to really know themselves better. You know you can't you can't make someone do that but life circumstances or even dreams can certainly spark that journey. If you have a disturbing dream and you're curious enough about it, it can lead you as you know with all the work that you do in that area can lead you on some really interesting paths.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

And likewise you have a difficult moment in a relationship or vocationally as you have mentioned they are wonderful doorways if you look at them as opportunities to know more about yourself, it changes your whole perspective on how you're approaching life. Oh that didn't go well let me reflect on that what I mean angered me or I felt all tense inside or I was incredibly attracted to that moment or that person uh to pay attention to what's going on inside and how it relates to um my past, my current bents toward a variety of things or my future longings. And all of that mindfulness is what we hope we develop in individuals and want for ourselves to live in that way of being curious and proactive in how we live. Yeah.

Final Takeaways And Listener Prompt

SPEAKER_01 26:58

So with that uh probably a good spot to end. Uh Jim well it's never a good spot to end D we could go on for hours and hours but it probably is good to not wear out the audience because you know low projections so you're a little bit worn out. I I got that message loud and clear you know you know too much self-discovery you dig a big hole.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

So sorry I wore you down and on that note I'm glad all of you joined us thanks for joining us thanks for being here thanks Jim we'll talk again soon. Yeah bye bye that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast we'd love for you to follow rate or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here and until next time keep growing stay curious and take good care of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah now that's good stuff