S2E12 The Shadow Side Is Not Your Evil Twin

We unpack what the shadow side really means and why it often shows up through big emotions, relationship conflict, and projection. We also explore how dreams can deliver shadow material at a pace we can handle, so curiosity replaces fear and growth becomes possible. 
• defining the shadow side as denied or unrecognized parts of self 
• why “denial” is not always conscious and how triggers reveal the unconscious 
• Jung’s view of the shadow as “gold” and a major source of growth 
• spotting the shadow through disproportionate anger, fear, sadness, and depression 
• how projection in couples and everyday life points to what we disown 
• using triggers to trace the story in your head and test it for evidence 
• why old wounds return across decades and what they may teach next 
• working with scary dreams as symbolic messages and using active imagination 
• building a safe habit of self-curiosity in therapy, coaching, and daily life 
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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. My name is Dee Kelly, and the person here with me is Jim Shaley. My name is Jim Shaley. Nice to have you here. I'm a therapist and a coach. We love exploring all kinds of things that have to do with therapy, coaching, and dreams. And this week, I thought we would uh dig a little bit deeper into a concept that we've referenced many times, but sometimes is very confusing to people. Um maybe we can talk more about that, but it's the shadow side. When we talk about exploring the shadow, confronting the shadow, the shadow versus the shadow side, is there a difference between those? I'm not sure we're gonna answer all of those questions because the literature is in some ways is not all over the map, but there are a lot of different definitions of what the shadow side is. And so we're gonna explore it a little bit and see how we put that into practice.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

So could it be as simple as the phrase I use a lot and uh in thinking about our conversation of the denied aspect of ourselves? That's a great definition. Okay, because I think that's the part that we project oftentimes without knowing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah. I would also um shade that just a little bit in that denied often comes across as if it is a conscious, I'm refusing to pay attention to it. Sometimes things exist in the unconscious just because we haven't recognized them either. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah, because denial on some level doesn't mean I doesn't know I don't know it's not I don't I don't know that it's there. What did I just say?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

You want to start over with that?

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Yeah. Denial means that I don't know that it's there. It's just that I'm in denial on some level. But to your point, it could be really unconscious that I'm not even aware that it's there.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Okay. Yeah. I think sometimes the different aspects of woundedness just because it can be avoided, but there are portions of that that I don't even know are there till something triggers it. Yes, that's true. And then I have the choice to deny it or not. And if I deny it, it shifts into the shadow side. Aaron Powell Well, that's a great way of putting it. Yep. So um I do like that is a great starting point, though. Um I don't know if you do much work in um therapy with your clients, if that's something that comes up regularly. Uh I certainly bring it up when it's obvious in the work that I do in coaching. Um when I will just make a comment, maybe we should uh look at some of the shadow side of your life. And the response that I get is sometimes what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 3:02

And then other times it's you mean I gotta go stand out in the sun, and then you'll you'll trace my shadow, and then we'll talk.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah. I you know, I've read some places that the term shadow side or shadow work originated with Jung. I don't know that for sure, but he certainly is the one that brought it into the the field of psychology and personal growth and personal work. And his definition is a little more narrowly defined than I think it's come to be known. He would name specific parts of the personality that existed in the shadow side. But one of the things that I a lot of things that I appreciate about what he said, but one is that he had this viewpoint that the shadow really contains 90, I think the number was 95%, might have been higher, but 95% pure gold. Like it is when we step into it, if we grab hold of the energy that's available to us through that shadow side, the the pathways for growth and exploration and self-awareness and improvement are exponentially increased if you're willing to step into that place and uh wrestle with some of the things that come out of the shadow. So let's talk about what those might be. How how the shadow side shows up or appears in an individual's life, how you might see it as a therapist or how you might see it as a person if it shows up in your own life. Any place you want to get us started there?

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Well, the place I would start was really uh the easiest to see is when there's an exaggerated sense of anger or outrage about something that they have no control over.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

For me, it's like that's the okay, something's there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

The whole notion of disproportionate. Yeah. But you wonder, or you experience with individuals that they don't necessarily see it as disproportionate. Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

That's that's very true. They feel very uh very appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

That's right. And how outraged they are. Yeah, and pretty concerned that you're not as outraged as they are.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yes. You're supposed to match it and go, I can't understand why you're not as upset as I am. Well, okay. You just took a swing at me, so perhaps uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Um and I would say that sometimes um for couples, there will be one person who is suggesting that they might benefit from counseling work because they are experiencing that and the other is not. Absolutely true. Yeah, I think that's really good. Yeah. Um so the really the definition, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Or a trait, uh uh let's say you're at you're at a social event with your with your partner or spouse and uh uh you're upset that they won't pay attention to you.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Or, you know, it's like you're you're you're so bothered by it because they're not making your life comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

You know, because you're more of an introvert or whatever, whatever that you think you are. It's another way for the for the the shadow side to show up. It's like, okay, you can't be that, and so you want them to help come and make you more comfortable. It's a subtle way of of of expressing it.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Aaron Powell Well, let me take what you're saying and go back to season one where we spent we referenced it many times, but we spent one full episode on projection. What it means is that a part of me gets projected onto someone else, often a partner, and that's might be why we're attracted to somebody. But projection is also vilifying of someone else. And that can be a partner, it can be a political figure, can be any number of ways by which we project parts of ourself that we're not paying attention to, or we've pushed into the shadow side, and yet it comes out as our projections of our inner works on other people. So I that was a long way to get to the point to say when projection is happening, it is a reflection of the shadow side that we're not paying attention to. Most often, yes.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

That's why projection is so interesting. Because in my mind, majority of it is the shadow side.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah. So that gives you a clue as to something is there to explore.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Yeah, I like that word explore because you know, some sometimes it comes across as as negative and you know, critical and all that one. Really, it's just it's just a way to self-discovery that to increase it. So and it can be, you know, as we both know, it can be pretty threatening to uh to take a look at that that shadow side that we think isn't there but scares us every once in a while by how strong it is.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah. And I typically, if I'm working with somebody in regard to dreams, a frightening dream is one of two things typically. One is that it's an expressed emotion from something that has created a great deal of fear in real life, and then that emotion gets expressed at night in a dream. But it is also very often an expression of the shadow side that's attempting to get the attention of the ego of the dreamer. And when we ignore parts of ourselves, often those parts cry out for attention and yell out, attack out in a dream, act out in a dream. And the reason is not to destroy us, it's actually to move us toward health. It's to say you're not paying attention to a very vital part of who you are. And this is so essential to your growth that the psyche creates images to grab your attention. And so, yeah, a strong, strong anger, uh, significant fear, um, a lot of those emotions point toward a shadow side that is um trying to push through that conscious, unconscious barrier and be seen or be heard.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Yeah, and even the other side of anger, which is uh sadness, it can show up that way as well or depression.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Absolutely. One of the things that I have a difficult time, but I think is essential for individuals, is to get people to turn and look at those emotional things that they don't like and say, is there a chance you could turn toward them with a sense of gratitude that they are trying to point out something to you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

You're such an optimist.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

And you know, I'm sure you are already thinking, yeah, there are some people that go, why would I do that?

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

That's masochistic. That's right. They don't want to be depressed, they don't want to be angry, they don't want to be afraid. Understood.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

But this is why that's why a lot of the masculine or men won't bring up subjects because it it why would I come home and talk about how upsetting work is? I relive it. They don't see the value of the fact that they're just suppressing it, and if they were to talk about it, maybe they could resolve some things.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So I had a couple recently I had the privilege of talking to. And it was um a great moment where uh one of them talked about a dream that they couldn't remember the details, but they had they named two very strong negative emotions, and it was because the spouse in their dream had done something to create those very negative emotions. And and it wasn't viewed as a part of themselves. It was the spouse's fault. And the great reference uh to uh one of them referenced the the one who was receiving the um negative energy, referenced uh Jerry Seinfeld uh routine where he talks about um his wife saying, Um, you know what you did in my dreams last night. And he was at a loss as to how to argue that one. That was funny. Yeah. But the the journey toward facing those things and saying, Oh, that's a part of me that's that I'm wrestling with here that's trying to get my attention and turning toward it with gratitude and saying, at the very least, thank you, dreams, for working hard to recalibrate my emotions to uh try and process the things that I'm not giving enough attention to uh during the day so that the next day I can wake up with enough capacity to face the next day begins to change the whole way you approach not only your dreams, but that then gives you a pathway to change the way you look at the shadow side. To turn to the shadow side with gratitude and say, What are you trying to teach me? Mm-hmm. I think we've mentioned this before.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

But again, that that also uh there's a certain trait that I think you can develop. Uh some people have it naturally, but it's basic, basic curiosity. Yeah. You have to be curious about yourself and your reactions and why you do what you do. And I think because we're, you know, you're a coach and I'm a therapist, we have a natural, we've always kind of had a natural bent towards that. So I think to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people that that's that that's upsetting, just keep moving forward and all those things. Um I think uh a precursor to all of that may really begin to develop a curiosity about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

So I mean I think a complete sidetrack, but no, no, no. I think it's expot on. And I would suggest that um somebody who seeks out coaching or therapy, you ought to look for someone who exemplifies that in their practice, that spirit of curiosity. Yes. I think modeling it for someone, like by asking the questions of curiosity without panic, without fear. I think that very often somebody who has not grown up with or developed that part of themselves, when they see it in somebody else, that somebody is genuinely curious. Well, plus you do that really well. I mean, that's one of your incredible strengths from my perspective. You do that very well. Appreciate that, Jim. Thanks. Um so what are some of the roadblocks? Uh do you have do you use the language of shadow side in your practice at all?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Or do you think that's Yeah, I'll probably if I wanted to want to make a point, I'll say the dark side, and then I'll rephrase it and say it's the denied aspect of self, which kind of makes it feel better. Um But I I do think to your point uh a couple seconds ago that uh people seek out therapy and coaching for lots of reasons, but one of them it one of them from my perspective that's so important for a therapist or a coach to do is is to do exactly what you said, teach curiosity that it's safe to do it, that I can ask all kinds of questions and I can even look at the the the shadow side of myself and not be afraid of it, because life's just a journey. And when people kind of embrace that and not see it as a negative, or oh my, what am I gonna do with that? Or what if I remember things that I don't want to remember, all that can be a hindrance to that.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Thanks, Jim. I think that's a great way to phrase it. I often use triggers as a way by which to explore the shadow side. If something has triggered uh something and you go, wow, where did that come from? Or you find yourself stuck in an anger loop, or the the reflection on can we go back a little bit and say, where did that triggering kind of start? Like when did your day turn bad? And then ask, where does that where does that trigger come from? Does that make sense to you? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

And again, uh people feel justified in their triggers. Yeah. And so you have to work kind of work through that and say, well, that why do we use the word trigger? Well, something, something took you somewhere. So where did you go? What's the story in your head that has now started up? That's always a great way of trying to identify the shadow side as well. And you know, the the classic phrase, and it's been around forever, is like, uh, that story in your head typically isn't true, but you you made it up for some reason. So let's figure out why you made that story up. And it's usually to try to make sense of something or squelt your own anxiety or be able to blame somebody. I mean, it serves a purpose, but it is interesting when you challenge someone to say, you know, that let's think about that. You think that story's really true? You have no variable proof, verify verifiable proof of that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Along that same line, people have tapes they play in their head that help them survive whatever trauma was younger.

SPEAKER_03 16:58

Absolutely true. And then then you have to ask as they grow, do you still need that story? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Or or they've come in because the story's no longer working.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Yes, absolutely. Yes, that would be more accurate once you identify that. Yeah, that that's that's very true. And it's a and that was what we talked about a long time ago. That's the midlife crisis or the reevaluation. The way that I was living is no longer working. It's stressful, it's anxiety-producing, it feels like a crisis. Do I need to get rid of my spouse? Do I need to get a new job? No, no, calm down. Maybe you just need to ask some good questions about your life.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah. Here's something that I um face regularly. I'm curious as to how you would respond to it, whether you have or not, when someone has something that's triggered, and they are talking about this triggering thing, and somehow it comes up about the maybe the shadow side that points toward a woundedness from something in the past that's been pushed away, but the person has worked on it. And their response in those moments is, I thought I'd dealt with this. I thought I'd already because we've already done so much work on this. How should we be having to face this again? So, what's your response to somebody when they are getting frustrated that it's the same thing seems to come up again?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Well, of course it does because you need to keep keep seeing me for the rest of your life. So of course that's why it's going to come back up. There's your downside. That's exactly right. Uh no, I I will tell people that as you grow, it the the trauma will show up in your 30s and then it'll show up again in your 40s, it will show up again in your 50s, in a different form, perhaps. So it doesn't go away. It's just that uh what's it trying to teach you in the next decade of your life? Here it is again. Okay, I still have things to learn about it. It may not be the same lesson, but is there a different why does it keep showing up? Well, it's been trying to say something and trying to figure that out that helps you stay focused on it.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah. One of the great advantages that I believe comes with working with dreams is that I think that there are times when therapeutic or coaching work can take somebody towards some difficult spaces and they're not quite ready for some of those conversations. Hopefully, there's enough insight from whoever's doing the facilitation that they will catch on to that. But when something shows up in a dream, it seems to me that uh the psyche is conveying that there is something here that you are ready to hear and let's just take it as far as the dream takes it. So if there's something frightening, a shadowy figure that comes in the dream, can we just explore that particular character? Maybe use active imagination and try and hold space with that character long enough to say, what's the message you're trying to convey to me? In those moments, I have felt like we can stay at the level that the psyche has brought us to in the dream material and stay there as long as we need to in terms of processing the triggers, the fears, the characterization, those kinds of things. Any thoughts about that as a principle? Well, I think it's a great principle.

SPEAKER_03 20:54

Absolutely. Uh again, you have to get people past that thing we've talked about in almost all the conversations we've had about the dreams, uh, beyond it being an external to internal. Yeah. And to see that there's valuable information. Even if it's uh I'm again, most people remember scary dreams. I had two this last week where I just haven't some crazy dreams. And they want to say it's the medication, it's uh whatever it is. I said, well, uh let's say it is. Does that matter? So let's take let's take the dream and see what it might be saying to you and not be afraid of it and not think that it's about, you know, you need to go back and remarry your ex or whatever. Let's just let's just say it's they're trying to say something to you. And that's to be honest, I I find it if if you can create curiosity about their dreams, which I think I'm relatively good at, but from my perspective, it's creating curiosity about the dream. Well, what if it meant this? And they go, Really? How could it mean that? Then you get some excitement because now the dream becomes a friend as opposed to something to avoid and like to be afraid of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

I I l do love that dreams set you up for that moment where somebody goes, what? Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

When they when you when they think, oh, it could mean that, well let's let's think about it. Could it mean that in your life, in your context? And then you get them curious about their lives, about why that dream. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Sometimes the very simple question, what if that person isn't about that person, but represents a part of you? What part of you would that be? That's a great question. Yeah. That often takes people into, huh, okay, never thought of that. And then that defense mechanism has come down about curiosity and they get a the chance to ask questions that they haven't asked before. And I just think that that's a great open space to explore. Somebody wants to explore the shadow side on their own would you say don't do it? Do it at night when it's really dark outside.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

When you can't see your shadow. That's when it shows up the most.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Uh no I think if anything, just get it if it if there's any curiosity about it at all, say, okay, that's an interesting concept. So there are parts of my life that I am unaware of. Well if you're a thinking human being, of course there are. I mean it used to be how much of how much of the unconscious do we live out? I mean most of our lives we just react to things as opposed to being purposeful about it. That's why mindfulness and all that stuff has been the last 20 years in my field has been so important trying to get you to be aware of what's happening in your life right now. Yeah. And in a world that's uh seems to have a crisis every other minute, um, it's easy to get sidetracked by all that and distract from your own journey and realize what can I control today?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah. Yeah. Very true. I think I'll for my my last thought on this is to take us back to the projection stuff. I think if somebody's wanting to explore it on their own, um a great starting point other than dreams is to say um what do you find triggering in somebody else or or an individual or who do you find mysterious and attractive and ask the question what part to me is getting projected onto somebody else that I probably should explore for myself.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

And we do that with celebrities and athletes all the time. Yep. So we all have those those are all I think pathways to ask those questions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Well hopefully this has been helpful to some um I always enjoy a discussion Jim let's bring this to a close always great to be with you. Good to be with you. Thanks Jim talk to you soon. That's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast we'd love for you to follow rate or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here and until next time keep growing stay curious and take good care of yourself. Yeah now that's good stuff