S2E15 The Language of Symbols and What Our Behavior Might Really Mean

We explore why symbols matter in dreams, therapy, and everyday life, and why the same image can carry wildly different meanings depending on your story and culture. We walk through practical ways to ask better questions so symbols become tools for insight instead of shortcuts to certainty. 
• symbols as more than literal objects 
• collective meanings vs personal meanings 
• logos, brands, and why images stick 
• dream figures as representations of parts of us 
• hiking and driving as symbols of freedom
• doors, windows, downsizing, and what we can’t throw away 
• why dream dictionaries flatten subjective meaning 
• symbols evolving over time, and the STIR model as a living map 

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You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. My name is D. Kelly, and this is Jim Shalley. And my name is Jim Shalley, and this is D. Kelly. Thanks, Jim. This is how we did that.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

That's how we did that. That was good.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

I can never get through an introduction without interrupting you or you.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

One of the uh observations is that Jim seems to interrupt a lot.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

A coach and a therapist having a conversation about how we handle life, how we progress through the different stages of life, how we interact with others, and what kind of models we use to try and navigate those things. So it's great to have you as listeners join us. Always a privilege to have somebody listen in to our conversation and sometimes provide feedback as to how we could do a better job of addressing the needs that you might have. So don't hesitate to reach out to us, whether it be through uh our websites or in some other fashion, we would love to hear from you. Um today we're going to spend a little bit of time uh talking about a topic that comes up frequently, but we've never spent an entire episode on it. And that is to talk about how we often use symbols in whether it's in my line of work, uh spending a lot of time talking about dreams and looking at the symbolic nature of dreams, or in therapy, when we often would talk about how an individual's choices might have strong symbolism to them, or how you make reference to objects and personify them and what that symbolically might mean. Um so I thought we'd dig a little bit deeper into that and just explore how we might use it. A symbol is just something that carries more meaning than just that it is that object. So I'll give a couple of examples. Um in the financial markets, a bull and a bear have become symbolic of an increasing stock market or market or a decreasing market. And so somebody who is in finances might have a very different view of that particular symbol than somebody who grew up in the wilderness or on a farm or something like that. So symbols both have collective meanings, but they also have individual meanings. So collectively, as a society, we might look at the bald eagle as a symbol for patriotism.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Or old men with no hair.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Right. So again, to make it very subjective, um, today's episode will all will be about all the symbols that mean something to Jim. And asking everyone to just mold and bend around that is what we're working toward. Well, there you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

So um So wait a minute, you're you're uh uh uh I guess suggesting that I'm a balding old man?

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Is that uh is that what you're hinting at? It wasn't, but now that you mention that, which I guess that would be what the symbol would mean to me. So they're more back and forth. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yes. And you, Jim, symbolize to me what it means to grow old and lose hair.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Okay. And you symbolize uh not getting any gray hair and staying uh youthful forever. So it's anyway. Sorry about the sidetrack. Let's uh we can go down the long list of things that have symbolic significance in our culture, but Well, maybe real briefly, could you describe the bull and the bear, why they use those symbols? I don't know. Because the bull is aggressive. It's that we're in a bull market, and a bear means that we're receding. So it's interesting why they use those two images. I don't know what it is, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah, most symbols have great historical stories to them.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah. Um there are all kinds of symbols that might come to mind, but I have often, when I do a session on symbols, I often use advertisers as the great example that they try and come up with an image or a symbol that is memorable. And if I were to put up, for example, a car logo that didn't have any words on it, um, there would be a lot of people that could immediately tell you the car company, they could tell you the quality of the car, they could tell you the history and reputation. Yep, that's true. So for those who are listening, obviously we can't do a visual here, but many of you can immediately visualize a Mercedes um logo or a Jaguar logo, um, or a Ford Chevy. Um any of those might come to mind. Um I I can think of Impala um immediately, and it has it has an interesting uh significance to it. I don't know if I've told you this, Jim. Showing our age a little bit, but that's uh good thing. I am. I this is an interesting family anecdote that I have no reason to believe it's not true. But my grandfather, probably before I was born, or maybe around the time I was born, uh, was an individual who traveled a lot on behalf of his job associated with a church denomination. And he was on his way back from Africa on a plane and sat next to an automobile executive who talked about a new car that was coming out and they hadn't landed on a name. And my grandfather, having just recently been on some of the savannas in Africa, oh geez, yeah. Um, said, you know, there's a beautiful animal that I'd never seen before called an impala. And uh seems to me like that would be a beautiful representation. And about a year and a half later, the car came out. So I don't know if the the veracity of that. Sounds good to me. No. Yeah. Um so anyway, um often logos are probably gonna get a free impella for that story. He really should.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Or call up uh the car company and say, what's the real story on this?

SPEAKER_03 6:50

Exactly. That's true. That would be interesting to Google and see what it comes up with. Yeah. Yeah, set on an airplane by a guy who said uh it's a beautiful animal.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Well, I'm his grandson, so could we do an advertising campaign about this?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Uh I don't know if any of this is going to make it into this episode. We'll see how this goes.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Well, we can say this is rambling, ramblings uh images.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

I mean, you can look at religious organizations and the many symbols that are associated with various world religions and immediately evoke some kind of inward feeling. Nations, flags all have symbols on their flags. So when you think of dreams, it should be a relatively easy mental transition to say that when you look at dreams, what are some of the symbols that you see? Often when we see a person in a dream that we recognize, we think it's that individual. And we've said plenty of times during the season that it's what that person represents to you. But another way to use that phrase is what might that person symbolize to you? If they are a symbol of a part of you, what might that symbol mean? So um I'm I'd like to, though, take it back to coaching and therapy, just in conversation. Um, the many times I'm guessing both of us have had somebody that describes something they did and we offer maybe an insight as to do you see that as a symbol of freedom for you? Do you see that as a symbol of something else? Sometimes phrases that are used um help me think of things in new ways. So the fact that I, as we've talked many times, enjoy trails. I enjoy both walking them and riding them. And I think then it's fair, a fair question and really an important question for me of what does that symbolize for you? And for me, it symbolizes um of independence.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Right. Um tracking with you more. I was I I'm sorry, I wasn't I wasn't tracking, but this is making more sense to me. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah. So it symbolizes to me um a little bit of freedom. It symbolizes a little bit of distance from the daily grind of things that just keep coming and keep coming and keep coming. And it's tough to get a big picture. And when you're standing up on top of uh a high precipice or done the work to climb up to the top of a peak that's 14,000 feet, there is something about that bigger picture that gives you a completely different perspective than the daily grind. And so there is something not only that I take away from the experience, but that it symbolizes for me as a reference point uh in my daily interactions. So that's an example for me of something that holds a great deal of symbolism.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Well, I I think, yeah, in that sense, I can track really easily with that. So I love to drive. So uh people always comment that, you know, I'm going out west, so you're gonna fly, and I'll say, no, I would I would drive. And then they're always uh that's always curious to them. And so, yeah, the metaphor of just getting in the car and driving with no, I mean, I have a particular place to go, but I take different routes oftentimes. Uh, that's just uh the the symbol would be complete freedom.

SPEAKER_04 10:43

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

And so the trails, uh, all those things. But interestingly enough, if you think about it, I love the freedom of that, but I also enjoy even revisiting trails we've done before. Um so the the security and structure of that, like in the stir, the the stabilizer, to go back to a familiar place, like we're going back this summer, taking another person with us to a familiar place uh that I've done many, many times in Moab and Colorado. So uh, and that'll still be freedom, but there'll be a familiarity that helps as well. Whereas sometimes our trips, we don't don't we don't know what trail we're gonna do. We just turn somewhere and go up the and so they're whole different images from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

And it's a wonderful, I think, exploration of the inner person to say, what does the unknown trail symbolize and what is the known trail symbolize? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Because they're both important. And you you can become locked into one way of doing things and then ask, well, what would it, what would it mean to you to try a different pathway?

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Because a stabilizer would want to go on the same trip, the same trail, because they're familiar with it.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

But they know all the rules. They know every corner. Absolutely. And they like showing those corners to everyone else who hasn't experienced it. So it's new for the other person, but not new to the stabilizer.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Aaron Powell And lots of times, you know, we've been on a trail, and we just me and you will just say, let's go up here. And and some might somebody might say, Well, why would we do that? Well, we just stay on this one. What if it doesn't go anywhere? And we would go, okay, we'll find that out, right? So yes, the symbol of both of those are interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Yeah. And part of me of that scenario you just described is that um the symbol of a day like that is that time seems to fall into a different category. So when somebody says, are you going to go down that other direction? And the answer is, yeah, I got nothing but time today. Why wouldn't I explore? And I have so many days where that statement is not true that I don't have time. I don't have time to hardly squeeze in um checking my emails because it's so busy. And the beautiful symbolism of feeling like time just stretches out is incredible. And so it becomes very important to do some of those things to symbolically say to myself, um, time is not as constrictive as I sometimes feel. Right. That's good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

And I think that, again, that's giving value to all the different quadrants of our of the STIR model. Is like sometimes if we're too rigid, we need to just have time where we just have no expectations on us. And if we're built that we're built to have expectations, we sometimes can get overwhelmed by it without realizing it. So, yeah, the symbolism of that. Like for for example, people will say, all I ever wanted to be was a high school basketball coach. Well, that's that's a coping phrase, but it's also an image or it's a symbol of what I'd how I'd like to cope with my life when really their life is so stressed and so busy that that's their their fantasy idea, is that that's sim symbolizes them some kind of different, less stress-free life.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

And I think that very often I think that that's a great example because very often people cling on to a phrase without having done the introspection that helps them use that phrase in life-giving ways.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Aaron Powell Yes. They don't know why they use the phrase. It's like saying it's like saying, I can't do this anymore. And they keep doing it. And so it's it's a way to actually keep doing the same rather than doing the deeper work of figuring out, okay, what if you didn't what if you didn't do this anymore?

SPEAKER_02 14:51

I'll give you another example that comes up periodically that I think is a if you're using the imagery of a door, a door to walk through, which in and of itself is a great symbol. Um moving through a door or looking through a window, um, all of those are great images that do something to us inside when we think about um new beginnings or new way to see things. But when somebody is um attempting to move uh from one location to another and they have to downsize and find themselves going through things that they haven't looked at in years, but they can't get themselves to give it away or throw it away. And the question is just very simply, what does it symbolize to you? Why have you hung on to it? You know nobody else wants it. Great, great question. Yeah. And I and I think that leads people into some wonderful conversations that sometimes lead to a place where you go, oh, I need to let this go, don't I? Maybe. I mean, do the work here. Or um this uh this is something that's pretty unresolved for me, right? Yeah, probably. Let's spend some time talking about that. I'm just asking the question. But you can ask it of yourself as well when you're going through your closet and there are things that you just have not used in forever.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah, like what do they represent? For me, it's a such an interesting example. I have my dad's watch that he wore. It had one of those uh bands that turned inside out and all kinds of, I forget what they're called. But I remember the day he got it. We were we were visiting his chiropractor, and I was probably maybe 11, 12 years old, and I went with him. And uh old Doc Carney gave him his watch. And so, yeah, it's it symbolizes uh a meaningful moment with my dad that I remember him getting a watch from this guy that he went to get uh the chiropractor services from. So you're right. That's that's so interesting. And yeah, why do we keep the things we keep? There's always a story there. Yeah. And I think that's that's a great avenue for people to dig deeper into their lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

There's some great resources, and maybe I can put them on a website in case people want to access them. But I um have both written and spoken about my encouragement to put away dream dictionaries because they um I think I've said this before, they typically tell you more about the author than they do about yourself, that the author has um defined these symbols in a particular way that might show up in a dream, because dreams are so subjective, which makes them so powerful. I think that that's often what people miss. My posture that it's it's the subjectivity that makes them such a wonderful tool for coaching therapy or reflection. Yeah. Um but dream dictionaries uh typically are very concrete in what each symbol means, which just takes away both the culture you grew up in, this experiences you have, um, why the bald eagle might not mean to you what it means to everyone else. Right. Um I mean, we could just doesn't take long to look at our nation's history and how different cultures have been treated to recognize that some symbol that seems very beautifully patriotic to me could feel incredibly oppressive to somebody else. Dream Dictionary doesn't get at that. But there are some wonderful books about symbols. And there are a few that um take a look at the cultural nuances and give more stories behind what symbols might mean in a particular culture. They can be very helpful. But ultimately you have to ask the question but what does it mean to you? Here's this image. What is this how does this um evoke out of you certain memories, experiences, thoughts, or feelings? And that's why they're so powerful.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Right. And it is interesting. Like even the imagery of during the pandemic, uh, so many people were buying RVs and they were taking off. And so what does that mean to you? What is it? Well, freedom, uh, you know, uh the ability to move around the country, whatever that is. But and then it what's interesting is then after the pandemic is over, a lot of people were s were selling them. So there was this imagery of this represents this, but the reality is oftentimes different. So that's another conversation that's fascinating if you examine the symbol, and then if some if by chance you have the the ability to play out the symbol, what it re what you think it represents, and then it doesn't turn out to be the same, that's always a another interesting way to process life. Yeah. Yeah. I thought marriage is going to be like this, but woo. Yeah. Or allure.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

The allure of a symbol realized then can become uh a symbol of disappointment. Yeah. Or a symbol of joy. I mean, it could be either one. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you mentioned the RV. Um, if an RV appears in somebody's dream, the question is very simply, tell me about what you think about RVs.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Um, one person might think of marital conflict, and another might think of another might think of family joy because they remember as a kid going on RV trips with her parents. True. So as a friend or a coach or a therapist, you don't jump quickly to that symbol and say, so does this mean this to you? It is more of a question of tell me a story of your life that you might think of when you think of that RV in your dream. Um and then the same thing happens with people. Um so I've mentioned a couple of times that there are Hollywood stars that every once in a while will appear in my dreams. And the question is, so what is that Hollywood star? Because you're kind of a star yourself. You know what I mean? That's right. I oh, I see myself in that star. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

That that probably was me. It could have been me. Oh, yeah. It could have been me.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

No, I'm sorry, go ahead. That's No, it's it's just again that caution of not trying to make those characters in your dream some external individual, but is to ask the question, what might that symbolize for you? So you asked me before we started uh today um about the symbol of a snake. And uh what that might mean, because you know I've had many snakes in my dreams over the years. And I just I think I quickly gave you four or five very different possibilities depending on your own experience. So just because I've had a snake in my dream, the image for me is likely not the same image it is for you. But I will also say, which is very true about symbols, and that is that the meaning of that image evolves over time. Like the image of the American flag has had so many different eras that has evolved over time. Um, and the image for me in a dream of a snake is different now than it was 15 years ago when the snake would appear. The image is an important one, but I have to hold it with the knowledge that experience and insight is going to cause that image to evolve over time for me. So you keep asking the question, what does it mean now?

SPEAKER_03 23:22

So true. Yeah. From what I understand, we do evolve or or devolve, I guess depends on what you do with the symbols. Yeah. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Um I would like to uh remind the listeners of the Sturm model, um, which is an acronym for stabilizer, transformer, initiator, responder, as ways to look at the uh task-driven energy, both static and dynamic, and the relational imagery that is both static and dynamic, and say that they themselves are symbols. Yep. Absolutely. And so we think about how those symbols change over time for an individual. So at one point in time, the transformer may be this mysterious, I don't understand it, I'm intrigued by it, I'm attracted to it, but I don't get it. It doesn't make any sense, it's not logical. Two um years later, somebody who has explored that Transformer side of themselves might go, yeah, this is a really important source of energy for me. It moves me away from my logic-driven life to hold sacred the intuitive side. And all of a sudden, the whole way we talk about that part of ourselves evolves over time as we learn to respect it or be curious about it. Yeah. Sure. Do you find people in clients that like have different relationships to that part of themselves? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's part of the goal is to get them to engage and interact with that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

Again, you can have such fascinating conversations with yourself if if you if you don't you don't divide yourself up, but you just acknowledge different aspects of yourself and have conversations with them. And that's why the STER model in my mind uh makes so much sense. It's like, who do I need to talk to today? Oh, yeah, I probably need to give myself a break, you know. Um and I need to have some fun or whatever that is. That those are the conversations I think that are so important to be as healthy as you can be individually, and then enjoy relationships that are a whole different level because of that. You're not looking for somebody else to meet some need, even though that that's fine. It's your you're meeting a need and you want to share it.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Well, I hope for all of us paying attention to the very symbolic things that we do in our life and how they might um invite us to understand ourselves at a deeper level and explore all of those nuances. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Well, I appreciate you continuing to talk because I was I was lost the first part of it.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Truth is I lose most people, Jim. I turn around and I'm the only one on the path. And it's kind of sad.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

But my response is my response is oh well, I'm gonna enjoy it myself.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Well, I I was I was following behind you, and then I took a different path, and I went, wait a minute, wait a minute, I'll just catch up.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

So uh this is a good place to stop, Jim. Thanks for joining me today, and uh, we'll get back at it in another week. Thank you, Dr. Kelly. Talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yeah, thanks.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, now it's good stuff.