S2E19 The Ripple Effects Of Change

The healthiest changes in your life can still blow up the system around you. When you stop a habit, set a boundary, or simply decide you’re done carrying a role, it doesn’t just affect you. It reshapes family systems, friendships, and the unwritten agreements inside long-term relationships. We dig into why that disruption is so common, and why it can feel both encouraging and strangely painful at the same time. 

We start with an everyday example that’s bigger than it sounds: choosing to stop social drinking. Even when nobody is “making” you change, the group dynamic shifts instantly, and people may test whether you’re serious. From there, we get honest about how often we try to externalize discipline by announcing intentions and asking others to keep us accountable, and why true heart change usually shows up quietly in consistent action. 

Then we move into boundaries in marriage and committed relationships, especially for responders, accommodators, and enablers who finally hit a wall. We talk about role renegotiation (including the classic “what’s for dinner?” conflict), the difference between changing from exhaustion versus changing from health, and how direct communication can prevent years of resentment. 

If you’re working on personal growth, therapy, coaching, addiction recovery, or simply better communication, you’ll leave with a clearer map of what to expect and how to stay steady when others push back. Subscribe, share this with someone navigating change, and leave a review with the boundary or role you’re trying to shift right now.

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. This is Dee Kelly. I'm here with Jim Shaley. Hello, Dee. Nice to be with you again. You as well. We have been spending a season looking at the very things that are part of our title of this podcast, therapy and how that works, coaching and what that looks like, and dreams, how they fit into those aspects of our life and lead us toward health and wholeness. I would like to spend some time this morning, Jim, on some of the changes that take place and how that can be very encouraging to people when they see change, but the problems that sometimes it creates, the consequences that you weren't expecting. Sometimes those are internal consequences. It raises issues that you hadn't been considering, didn't know you'd have to face. But it also can change systems, family systems, friendships, relationships. So I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the things that we can do to prepare ourselves or to prepare clients that you might work with for what that might look like when they try and put into place changes that they're making.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yeah, that's that's that's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

So let's look at some real maybe obvious ones. One of the things that comes to mind immediately for me is somebody who's just trying to overcome addictions. When you have certain addictions and you change behavior patterns to try and address that. For example, if you are a social drinker and you decide that that's no longer something that is healthy and beneficial for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Aaron Powell That would change a lot of the family system, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

And it certainly changes how friends react to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Absolutely true. So you're not gonna drink anymore? Well, you're not gonna be much fun. Yeah, that's absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah. So this change in one thing all of a sudden has these multiple layers that start unfolding. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

And the excellent part of that, the underlying value and effect comes from the fact that no one's making me change. I'm choosing to do it. That's what I call, I think we've talked about it before. That's called a heart, what I call a heart change. If my heart changes and I know I need to do this different, I'm not doing it because you're making me do it or I'm trying to change somebody else, that changes the system more dramatically than someone being forced to do it. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think to your point, that's that's a great point. If I decide, you know, I just don't want to do social drinking anymore. And just because I don't want to, they're not doing it to affect anything. And they even feel bad that some of the family members would would make a comment on it or feel like they couldn't drink now. No, it's fine. You can still do that. But it changes the dynamic, to your point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

And and I I think oftentimes we forget that a change that we've been working toward for a while, and all of a sudden it makes sense to us and we're gonna bring about a change. Often for the people in our life, it's their first time hearing it or first time experiencing it.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

You have to give them space and time to adjust and figure out, okay, well, what does that mean? So we're not gonna go out tonight?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah, because the other side of that is lots of times people will say they're they want to change and they never do change. So then people go, okay, here you here they go again. They're talking about this. And lots of times, if you don't say anything about it, that's when change really happens because it's an internal shift of like, I don't want to do that anymore. And you don't talk about it, you don't you don't brag about it, you don't say anything, you just do it. And that's why, oh, legitimately you've you've talked about it before but never did it. And now something's different. You have done it, and you haven't said anything about it. And that's that's confusing to the whole system. But to your point, that can change dramatically a family system, or it can kick someone out of a family system.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Oh. Yeah, that's true. Other people start putting up boundaries that weren't there before because their system's threatened sometimes. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yeah, absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Yeah. So let me, before I move into that arena a little bit further, something you just said made me think about how often we externalize our discipline by telling somebody in the hopes that they will hold us accountable, or I'm gonna tell you to make a commitment. Are you implying that often the externalization of that really doesn't that it often doesn't indicate a heart change because you've externalized it?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

It's almost like I'm gonna say this and it's uh it's like magical thinking to some degree or good intentions. And again, the subtlety is maybe somebody will hold me accountable. Well, no one's gonna no one's gonna do that. Or if they do, the accountability will be like, oh, you said it, oh yeah, you said that before. You never did anything. So yeah, that's why I'm saying when when it's really a heart change, you you don't really say, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna lose weight. It's like the rest the New Year's resolutions. It's like you say it out loud and it's like they last a week or two. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah. Uh if I'm going back to the social drinking example to tell your friends that join you in social drinking, please hold me accountable to this. That's maybe not the best approach to change. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Or if you say it out loud and they're and they're mischievous, they'll try to seduce you back into drinking. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

To test whether you're really Oh, really? You're not going to socially drink? How about this one? You like this drink. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Everybody orders your favorite drink.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

That's right. We'll get you back on the off the wagon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

That's a great point. A lot of times you say things out loud, and it's a coping phrase that you want you you really want to do it, so you say it out loud, but you don't do it. And that's why I say when it's a heart change, you don't really have to say anything to anybody because you know you're just going to do it.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

But let's talk a little bit about uh somebody comes in and they are uh wrestling with issues in the relationship that they have with a significant other, married or seriously dating, and they're really working on some internal stuff. That internal stuff often leads to a different way of interacting with other people. Is there a is there a a way by which to prepare yourself for how your shift in boundaries or approach or attentiveness to your own needs is going to affect that relationship?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, let's let's use the the responder or the enabler. That person, when they finally unfortunately they get exhausted, yes, could they say to their loved ones, I'm going to be setting better I'm going to be setting some boundaries because I've understood that it's taking a toll on me and it's I'm probably not going to do some things that you're used to me doing. Yeah, that's really so that's really evolved to get to that point. Because then you because in my mind, if that works, you've already gotten to a point where you're starting to set them and you're noticing the difference. And so then you're willing to say, I'm not going to be doing those things. That's a tough one because for an enabler to say it even out loud, I won't be doing that. That's that's like a commitment that I'm not going to because they probably already have shifted or or are exhausted from the process of doing too much. So so that's that's a way to prepare. And it also, if you've already made the shift, holding yourself accountable. Yeah. Because those people in your life, that's gonna really, really adjust make make them adjust to certain things. It's like it's like uh and let me add to that, it's like it's like the women who've been used to cooking for you know 30 years, and they get to a point where I'm not gonna cook anymore. I've had that uh several times in my in my office, and it's upsetting everything. And it's they say uh recently one of my clients said, don't ever ask me what's for dinner anymore, because they've always had to carry that load. And I think that's a a good example of setting a boundary because I'm I just I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Right before you said that, I was thinking inwardly how surprised I was how often that happens. Like there are I I in my past, I'm not sure I would have ever considered that ever happening because I grew up in a home where meals were always prepared by my mom, and it was just the given in our family system. And to come across numerous people who came up to a point in their life and they said, I'm I'm not doing this anymore. And it was cooking.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I remember when my mom my mom did that. She said, I'm not gonna do holidays anymore as far as the cooking and things. Yeah. I'm I and for me, I've always been amazed, even though I know it's a it's a role, it's a role uh definition about how women have always carried that thing of of doing all the cooking. That's that's shifted quite a bit. I think the younger the younger ones are more like egalitarian, they share it. But I've always thought found that amazing. It's like, why do why do they have to do that? And why do I get to say, hey, what's for dinner? Hey, how about you go to you go to the grocery store and figure it out? That's a great real life example. Now I think that comes with age, but I think the younger b younger women are more in touch with that even now, as opposed to uh being role-defined for 30 or 40 years and then getting to a point of saying, I ain't gonna do that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah. I have a feeling we may get some comments on this episode of you really screwed up our family by Yeah, it's just that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

But there are ready to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

There are so many roles that we don't even think about within a family system that have been taken on by somebody, and everybody just assumes that that's the way it's always gonna be. And and sometimes one of the things that helps bring about change in a person's life is to simply change a role. Here's something I've always done one way, and I think I need to change this one thing as kind of this statement inwardly that change is happening, and it affects multiple people. It's almost as if at times I felt feel like it has been a person's way of kind of announcing their growth by action. Yes. Like there's no statement, but this is my way of saying things are different now, and let's see what happens. And we're back to what you said in a previous episode, and that is life is an experiment. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

And and interestingly enough, I think still we're in the in the in the mindset that for that to take place, I almost have to be exhausted. Whereas you get to a place where you evaluate, do I want to keep doing this? Which I think is a little bit of a midlife issue, is like, do I want to keep doing this? And if I don't make a clear choice, then I may still keep doing it. But then at some point I I get so weary or tired of it that I I can't I I can't do this anymore. You know, and they they do it. That change is initiated by that desperation in some ways.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Aaron Powell So talk just a little bit about the difference of making a decision out of exhaustion and making a decision out of a place of health.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Well, exhaustion actually gives you some energy because you feel like there's another choice.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Okay. It's like an ultimatum inwardly.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Absolutely. Whereas if you choose to do it, you're very aware of how it's affecting others. And if you have any empathy in you at all, it's like, I'm really sorry that this is affecting you this way, but I really think I need to do this. Yeah.

unknown 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

It's kind of like it's kind of like someone who wants to change their career and they feel trapped because they've built such a life, and yet they they are exhausted with their with their present job, and they know how it's going to affect so many people if they downsize or or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

I do also find it interesting when somebody takes that risk to make a change, and they are surprised at how quickly everybody else adapts. And then there's this feeling of, well, why didn't I do this 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_01 13:07

It's true, because people will adapt if they want a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 13:10

They just it's one of those things. Right. Right. And I think that there is this recognition or can be a recognition in those moments that uh oh, I just need to communicate better. Like like there are times when somebody would say, I wish I'd known. I didn't know that this was a burden. I didn't know that you were weighted under this. And it's back to what you referred to earlier as magical thinking, that if I've never mentioned it, how could anybody know?

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Right. Yeah, again, that's vulnerability. The risk is if I say what I need, you'll be upset with me. And so I just don't say it. Whereas most of the time, if a person cares about you and is in a relationship and you say, hey, this really bothers me, unless it's a trait that's really hard for them to change, most of the time they go, Well, thanks for telling me. Uh you know, I can do something about that.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

I think that there is also I mean there's a difference between lack of communication, I think, between an initiator versus a stabilizer, a lack of communication between a transformer or a responder. I think sometimes the hesitation in communication is that you'll think less of me or you'll think I'm weak if I express my need.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

Yes. And and just the just the the defensiveness. Yeah. Remember, the feminine is relationally driven, so they're going to notice things. The masculine doesn't want to want to be noticed. So if there's a strong masculine, and I say, you know, when you when you every time I say this thing, you have a really interesting response where you kind of roll your eyes. Well, no, I don't. Well, you do that too. You roll your eyes, and that's the masculine response, is is usually defensive to try to defend themselves, whereas a feminine is just pointing something out. That's in my mind, that's that's the b basic breakdown. And so, as we've talked about many times, the masculine and feminine is inside of all of us. So the feminine side of the masculine in the response is defensive. Because remember, it's relationally driven. So their defensiveness is trying to defend the relationship they have with themselves in some ways, as opposed to being able to hear, which a healthy masculine could hear it and say, Oh, wow, I don't I don't I'm not intending to do that at all. That's why that's why defensiveness is almost always the negative feminine.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Because they're trying to preserve what?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

They're selves. Or their self-esteem. I mean the classic the classic one is, well, you do it too. I mean, uh, you know, my 35-year career, I've heard that a few times.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

So the development of course we all we all do it. Yeah. But we're talking about you now. Exact exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

You're the only ones doing it right now.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

So if you have the opportunity, you don't always have the opportunity, but to be working with both partners in a couple relationship and you're talking about change. How do you prep them for the shift that's necessary when one is considering defining their role in a different way? Is it just a matter of keep talking? You you've got to say this out loud and you've got to wrestle with how it feels to respond to the change that's taking place?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

And then have to stay committed to the conversations and how it's affecting the other. And again, this is where my phrase comes in they're better at being them than you are at being you. At some point, if I'm not really committed to the change, uh the other person who doesn't want the change will defeat me because they're better at being them than I'm being at me. I'm being me. So that's that's the other challenge. It's like you used to do that all the time, you don't do it anymore. Uh how has that changed everything? Even in the even in the area of intimacy, that that's a big conversation as far as my desire is different and the other person's desire is the same. Like that having that conversation can be really challenging.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Aaron Ross Powell And even more challenging if those conversations have not been taking place at all prior to this time.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Which is often the case. It's another one of those examples where you make a whole lot of assumptions about the way things are, that somehow they are the way things should be. And when somebody says, no, this is no longer working for me, it's it's like a shock moment for somebody. And and once again, if you've been thinking about this for like a year and a half and haven't said anything, you've got to give your partner some time to catch up with your thought processes that have been going on for 18 months.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

There's a lot of comp a lot of tentacles to this conversation, because one of them is so the feminine energy that's relationally driven will will always say, I've been giving you hints all along. I've been telling you for years or a year and a half. And the masculine will go, uh no, you haven't. And again, my analogy is, yeah, I've been notice I've been telling you to pick up your clothes for a year and a half. Uh no, I've been asking, I've been asked, I'm sorry, uh I've been asking whose clothes are those for a year and a half. And they're your clothes. And the masculine will go, You didn't I didn't hear that. So that's why you're right. The feminine has to be more direct in conversations. Yeah. And I mean think about the risk of it. Think about the risk of it. This is what I need or this is what I want. Because that's a big deal. Because if I need this for the relationship to be how I need it to be, that can be a deal breaker. It's like, whoa, who wants to have that conversation?

SPEAKER_02 19:19

At some point in time, the person who is feeling that, it needs to come out because it'll come out in all kinds of passive aggressive ways if it doesn't come out directly.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah. The truth comes out one way or the other. And functionally or dysfunctionally.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Is it also a lot to this conversation? I hope the the listeners aren't getting confused by all the different aspects to it, but well then they're doing better than I am, because I am so confused. Well, I think I was sensing my own confusion. That's why I wanted to say it.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

A little projection on Dr. Shaley's part, right there.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Absolutely true.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Um so here's one of the I think pieces that's important is that when we talk about paying attention to the inner journey, and this inner journey begins to bring about some change in how I view myself and understand myself and I'm moving toward health, just to be prepared that that inner change has consequences outwardly in your relationships. Some of those changes you'll welcome and you'll think, wow, maybe I should have done this sooner. And other things you'll go, oh, is this worth it to push this hard on this particular issue? And both of those responses are healthy and appropriate. And reevaluating change is a good thing to do. If you view it, again, this you said this in a previous episode, if this is in many ways an experiment, you see what the results are of your experiment, and you go, okay, but what's the next best experiment to bring about what feels healthy and whole and right? So just the preparation that change is a natural consequence and a desired consequence of the inner journey. And change has consequences that you have to evaluate on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Yes. And the less self-aware I am and I get exhausted, then I'll make an abrupt shift. And it will seem much more traumatic from that perspective as opposed to regularly assessing. That's why I use the term life's an experiment and hold things loosely. So hold it loosely. But if I again, if I've done something, if I'm a natural accommodator and I've accommodated and accommodated and accommodated and finally got to midlife where I'm just exhausted, and then I make an abrupt shift, because that's usually what happens, then it it's like I I I don't care how it affects everybody else. I had to do this because we've not been honest with ourselves about how it's affecting us all along.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Aaron Ross Powell Well said. Really well said. It also takes us back to the difference between making those choices and a crisis forcing those choices. And often change comes about through a crisis.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Aaron Ross Powell And that's why the crisis is in the whole family system then. Because all along I've been doing something that I haven't wanted to do and I haven't been honest with myself about it, because that means vulnerability to myself and then to others when I finally say, you know, at you know, 35 or 36, I don't want to do all the cooking. You have to help out. And then the for the husband sometimes to go, and I don't want to do all the providing, so you got to go to work. I mean, that's that's that's the real conversations that I think has had the last 20 years, 30 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

And that conversation could result in, oh, maybe the answer is we're not living as expensively as we have been in the past. Or we are at a stage in life where I hear you saying that maybe you'd prefer to downsize. Great. Uh let's talk about that. So those shifts have more than one answer to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yes, absolutely. That's why I say hold it loosely. To brainstorm and to really be cooperative and build your own system with each other because of the because of that very aspect. Yeah. It's like we can we can do this any way we want. And I which challenges family of origin issues, it challenges like poverty mentality, it challenges, I mean, there's so many different aspects of that conversation as well.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

So Wow. That's a great point. Because when you start to think about change, uh you begin to evaluate assumptions you made as a child, assumptions that your family system seems to still hold on to. Absolutely. It changes what holidays look like.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

It's so true.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I mean, it's like if I if I came from a a family that was very poor and I've done really well, and my spouse comes to me and says, you know what, I think we should really cut back and we should really be more because they've they've they've become uh abundant in their spending or whatever it is, it's like that's a big shift. Wait a minute, what what are you talking about? No, we we we're doing fine. Well, yeah, we're doing fine, but uh, how about we save and do these things? No, we don't need to save whatever that conversation is. That that's where extended family issues can affect those conversations and bring up emotions that surprise everybody.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Absolutely. Yeah. So very true. Um I think it is I I think one of the takeaways for me always on a discussion like this is just to be realistic as we move toward health, that there are ripple effects from that.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

And to be prepared. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

And I think it's probably a good point to bring this to a close, and we'll jump into some other issues in future weeks.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Jim and I think it's it would be really open to the to the listeners' comments about it because it it really there's so many different aspects to this that come up that blind side is when changes happen from somebody else and how we internalize it or how we respond to it. So it's that's a good conversation.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah. Internalize and personalize. I I take it personally that you're making a change. Which is not Which is kind of nerd.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

This is not this is not what I signed up for. You are different, and I did not it's like the old adage, I would say it in the masculine-feminine terms. The masculine gets to the feminine hoping they won't change, the feminine gets to the masculine, hope they will change.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Another way of saying it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

And for those who have chosen to make a covenant of marriage, it's probably a really good thing that in the vows we are not able to list all the changes that are going to be taken place.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I've often had this fantasy back when I did a few weddings. I would say I think we should be specific and uh say exactly what the better or for worse is, or could be. Yeah. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: What change I'm willing to tolerate and what change I'm not. And maybe a few people in the uh audience would like to uh you know join in and and give some insights. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

What a great ceremony that would be, Jim.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Don't do it. Oh, do it, it'll be great.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

So the conclusion from this episode is do not ask Jim to preside over your wedding ceremony.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Well, unless you want a detailed uh dynamic of what as to what might happen.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

That's right. And have a four-hour ceremony as you discuss it all. Thanks, Jim. Great to be with you. Hey, good to be with you, D. Yeah. That's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, now that's good stuff.