Ep #4 - TLC: Teacher's Lounge Chat (Our Festivus Episode)

'Tis the Season! This week we get to vent a little and talk about some of the "Positive Frustrations" about being a teacher, being a teacher in this day and age, and finally just being a teacher. 

We love our work; let the airing of the grievances commence!

Transcript

Ben Webb 0:08

Welcome to the pod. This week, our festivist episode where we're going to talk about some positive frustrations. Andy and I are going to vent a little bit about what are we seeing in education, what are we seeing in our schools, and what gets us fired up. My name is Ben Webb. This is Andy Goviea. Stick around. We are live in the lab. Welcome to the pod, everyone. Mr. Goviea, how are you doing today?

Andy Goveia 0:38

I'm upright. Okay. And uh alert and enthusiastic.

Ben Webb 0:44

Well, of all of those qualities, enthusiastic is usually the descriptor I would use to describe you.

Andy Goveia 0:50

Thank you. I try. Shout out to Mr. Grant Souder, orchestra teacher. Um, he sent us some really positive comments about the pod this week, and we're thrilled to to meet and encourage others.

Ben Webb 1:03

He's he is a great human who, if you don't know him, again, the positivity is wonderful, but he also knows how to craft something. Yes. So that no matter what he is saying, you feel better by the end of it.

Andy Goveia 1:17

So yes. So shout out to Mr. Souder, gem of a human being, and thank you for the fan mail, really. Our first fan mail. Fan mail. It was our first fan mail. So thank you, Mr. Souter, for your time and your positive vibes. Look for the fine arts episode about the lab schools here.

Ben Webb 1:36

Coming soon. I'm a theater ed guy, so no matter what, every episode is a fine arts episode.

Andy Goveia 1:41

Well, that's yes. And I'm uh I'm a band geek at heart. So really we are representing the arts.

Ben Webb 1:48

That reminds me class night. We got to start talking about the faculty band.

Andy Goveia 1:51

Oh, faculty band. We got to do an episode on traditions. We the lab schools where we've talked about, if you've listened to the pod, we've been recording a couple episodes. Every time we get together, we come up with about three new ideas for an episode we need to do. Um, but if you go back to our first episode, we talked about being a living laboratory and how we're trying to change, but we also have these deeply held traditions. I think a traditions episode would be really fun.

Ben Webb 2:17

And if we had planned this better, it'd be coming out somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas and the holidays, and you'd have a like traditions and the holidays and but I agree with you, but I would also throw out like these are the ones, those are the different topics that I'm gonna want to talk about when the applications are live, people are deciding if they want to go to the lab schools, and definitely before our end-of-the-year traditions, which are so important. Like every school's got graduation. Yeah, every school's got something.

Andy Goveia 2:45

Our our eighth grade presentation and UHI end of senior experience are two very unique storied events and traditions here. But that's unrelated to why we're here today.

Ben Webb 2:56

Yeah, today we're really just gonna kind of we don't have any guests. We are it's just us talking about like, okay, what are the things that are your teacher passion, your passion project, the thing that really like your productive frustrations? Yeah. Uh so it is both about the lab schools, but it's also more you as educator. And what are some of the things that you see in education, in the United States education system that have seeped into your classroom? And how do you either combat it, how do you fight it, how do you accept it, how do you try to change it? Like there are things that we can control, yeah, but our classrooms are a microcasm of what's out in the world. Yeah. And those students are bringing that into our room. And I think there's a there's a wonderful quotation. Um, I'm gonna totally butcher the quote, but the idea is as the classroom, you set the weather. And if they are bringing atmosphere into your classroom, how do you then create an environment that is not tumultuous and falling apart, even though for some kids that might be how their day is going. They might be having a day where it just feels like things are falling apart and they need that rock or that stability. And sometimes that's you in the classroom. You're that decisive element. That's the one part of the quote that I got right. You are the decisive element in the classroom.

Andy Goveia 4:20

I am. Thank you, Mr. Webb. That's really a positive compliment. Thank you. Uh no, that's that's a really good quote.

Ben Webb 4:27

I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna post it on our Instagram, and I'm gonna mention that that quote has been. I've got a little blue binder that I got at in my undergrad at Augustana. That was something that was given to me by you always do the fast five.

Andy Goveia 4:43

Yeah.

Ben Webb 4:44

And my teacher in college, who I would say is my person who pushed me to educat into education, that was from her in that quote that she found and said, Hey, I know you guys are just going out and doing inclusion clinicals, but I want you to think about this before you go into this classroom. So I'll find then I'll put it on our Instagram. So I got three questions for you about like your why. Yeah. And then let's do it. I'll try to like my hope today is to try and fire you up a little bit.

Andy Goveia 5:12

Oh, I love that. We've had so many guests on in previous episodes. We've done a lot of talking to other people. It's nice. We're just you're gonna get a window into us today. And I love it. The first episode wasn't enough. A second window into the people who are doing their best to create this uh media moment for you every two weeks.

Ben Webb 5:34

It's gonna turn into okay, the 45-minute episodes are when they have special guests and the half-hour episodes are when they're just being weird.

Andy Goveia 5:39

Yeah. Which, hey, if you like that, send us some more fan mail and we will register what we can.

Ben Webb 5:47

All right. So, first question for you, sir. All right. What moment this year reminded you exactly why you became a teacher? We are a couple months into school so far this year. What's one moment where you were like, yes, this is why I went into education. This is why I wanted to be a teacher. This is why I am still a teacher.

Andy Goveia 6:09

Yeah. Um, I think at some point, I hope we do an outdoor education episode. Metcalf has a phenomenal multi-grade outdoor education experience. I had mine this year. We went at the middle-ish of September when it was hot during the day and pretty cool and decent at night. Um it was our last full day in the woods. So for just a tiny bit of context, we go to Marine View State Park out in Leroy, Illinois, a 16 to 20-ish miles away from Bloomington Normal. It's a lovely state park, free to enter, great resources, beautiful place. It's our last full day there. It's a Thursday of the experience, and we're on this hike. And we take the kids over to an area they've never gotten to hike and explore before. And we come on this walking path, we come to this bridge, and I with this hike, I there's three of us that go as teachers, and we take about half of the students-ish with us, and then we we trade out later. But to make my very long setup as short as possible, we get to this bridge bridge, and my role every time is to be the troll at the bridge. I'm the loudmouth that can yell, hey, come back. Or if I hear someone, I can yell, we need help. I'm the loudmouth. And I live as the troll on the bridge during this hike. But the reason this was my this my affirmation this year was hearing kids laughing in the woods 50, 100, 200 to 300 feet away from me, hiking, climbing trees, and knowing they were fine, that they were okay, and when they came back looking like muddy messes, the smiles on their faces and the gratitude of thank you for taking us on this hike, that that's that authentic gratitude of you were here, you helped create this moment for us. Thank you. This was awesome. It just that was this year's mo I've had a lot of those moments this year, but that's the one that if I'm gonna go back to it and go, man, I this is why I do this. It's a 13-year-old looking at you, grateful they got to climb a tree, and meaning they were grateful they got to climb that tree.

Ben Webb 8:25

What what age was that again?

Andy Goveia 8:26

This was eighth grade. So we took eighth grade. Eighth grade goes in the fall, seventh grade goes in the spring.

Ben Webb 8:30

And see, I I think there's a there's that distinction between like, okay, I teach high school versus middle school. And I think you talk to a high school teacher, they're like, oh, eighth graders. I can't I could never do eighth grade. And then I've I've heard the same thing for middle school teachers, like, oh, I can't. Once they hit ninth grade, I'm done.

Andy Goveia 8:44

I think something that may be a hot take for me, if this is the hot take festivist episode, you could not pay me enough to teach freshmen, believe it or not. Surprising. I I love my eighth graders. And why I love teaching eighth grade is I have gotten to mold them and push them to this moment where they get to go be something that's next. I think I would really struggle teaching kids that I have to bring them back in and remold them to send them on a three-year journey. I get to be at the culmination of their journey in our building and getting to help them go to what's next is my jam. I don't, I don't know that I would be as successful bringing them in. What about you though? What was let's let's dialogue this. What about you? What's what was your affirming this is why I do this? What have you seen this year?

Ben Webb 9:32

So this year has been very different because I'll I I've got my classes, I've got my English classes, but then I've also got the theater program. And so this year I've taken on more of a technical director role where I'm just focused on lighting, set, sound. Like I am not artistic director for the shows. I'm not blocking them, and I'm really putting a lot to the people that are on our team who are really going to then direct a fall show, winter show, and a spring show. And so that's been really hard for me to like not be the one pulling the strings, giving up some of the control. Being the Uber marionette is the thing I love most about being a director. But this year, so the person who directed our fall show, which a musical, we're putting it forward as like, okay, we want to take this to our state festival. So this year, the director of the fall show, which I just was the technical director for, I got to come up with a cool set design. I got to train some new techies in their first year as like the head of their uh department. But the director is a former student of mine.

Andy Goveia 10:36

Oh, that's cool.

Ben Webb 10:37

So I'm getting to watch this director who graduated school here, went up to college up in Chicago, got his degree, and then moved back to town and and was like, Hey, do you want to be involved? And over the last couple of years, getting him ready and getting him like as the director. So it was very kind of why do I do this? It was like getting to watch that, where yes, it's a constant reminder of people always say, Oh, those that can't do teach. Well, in in many ways, if I'm doing it, then have they really learned? And so it's been kind of nice for me this year to kind of see that director take the helm, go through things, ask for like support and mentorship, and like what would you do? But then always putting it back to it's like, well, it's not about what I would do, it's what you were gonna do in this moment. And so it's kind of been fun to be the advisor and also every so often kind of go, yeah, it's not I don't have to make that decision. It's great.

Andy Goveia 11:40

That's awesome. What a cool like it's teaching is like phases of the moon, right? Things come in and out of fullness, and you have seasons where like you kind of just try the uber marionette, right? Like where you are you have to be at the wheel of all the boats all at the same time, right? But then there's seasons where you just get to kind of step back and just be like an echo and and a sounding board, and that's what a cool opportunity.

Ben Webb 12:08

Yeah. It's and I think you know, when you think about driver's ed, like you might be in the car, but I'm typically when I'm not directing, I'm usually in that passenger seat still. I've got that brake that I can hit if I'm really concerned or really worried. And this time it was I'm on the curb, I'm I'm on the sidewalk watching and waving, kind of giving giving moral support as they are the ones pulling and doing all the work.

Andy Goveia 12:34

That's amazing. Yeah.

Ben Webb 12:36

So we've joked and laughed and cried about how different our schools are from any other place in the world. What is a 10-minute slice of your day like?

Andy Goveia 12:49

Well, which part of my day?

Ben Webb 12:51

Exactly.

Andy Goveia 12:51

So I was gonna say what 10 minutes you want.

Ben Webb 12:55

Because it changes every 10 minutes, right?

Andy Goveia 12:58

Well, I mean, what if I just use my day today? And I'm gonna give it not a 10-minute slice, but like, here's what my day has been today. Okay. I showed up with my children, as I do, dropped them off, got in. Uh, I had a student who got to their locker and then threw up in the trash can in the hallway. So helped get them with someone walking to the nurse, got them to the nurse. I had another student come up because they had a really rough night. They needed someone to talk to, so I was talking to them. And then I got to my desk. I started printing things, making sure my sub plans for today were good to go. One of the cool things you may not know is this is mine and Mr. Webb's uh professional development plan this year. So our work as tenured staff is this podcast and sharing our message, but back on track. Um, so I finished my sub plans, made my copies for today. Um, and then um, you may have heard in a previous episode, I won a classroom makeover. So I'm in the work right now of finalizing that design. I got interviewed by our local MPR station, WGLT 89.1 FM here on ISU's campus. Um, got had that interview. My clinical interns showed up. I worked with them on they because they were gonna teach my morning classes. So I walked them through what was planned, what they were gonna do. They were gonna watch me teach, and they were gonna teach the second class, um, which I then left to come here to do this podcast. And then I taught kids. I had them for our SEL period, our win period. I taught, and here I am. And then after school, I'm gonna go back to my desk to get a couple things done. Um, but that's just today. I could hop to any other day and I could tell you what my Monday was like or my Tuesday. There's just there's a lot of variety in the not teaching here.

Ben Webb 14:37

One of the things, and I'm hoping this gets you fired up. Yes. The one of the things about our schools is so we are connected to the university. We have the university system that is kind of our model. We have shared governance, we have committee work, we have the committee work that's being done at the college level in the unit office of the laboratory schools in our building. And then, yeah, in our buildings as well. So like there might be three levels of technology committees. There might be three levels of diversity, equity, and inclusion committees. And we've also got to fill that or put that into our schedules as well.

Andy Goveia 15:15

It's um I I want to preface what I'm about to say by you cannot necessarily compare the work we do to the work done by educators in other schools because our missions and our charges are somewhat different. Yes. There are a lot of similarities in instruction and planning and grading and assessment and working with kids constant. There are other parts in any other school here that are different. And this is one of our weird parts of our system. Um, so uh what we're gonna say, maybe what I might what I'm about to say, I do not want anyone listening to construe that I am in any way being dismissive of the challenges and the real lived experiences of any other school anywhere else. I want to be very clear that what I'm about to say is not a criticism or dismissive of what anyone else does. There's just because of our four-part mission, we have a couple other pieces we are considered to be expected to be fulfilling. And sometimes, I think I've said this in other conversations I've had with people, sometimes the the other parts of our mission are what kind of get us fired up more than others. Teaching kids is great. If you could just pay me to teach kids all day, great. Uh, but because of who we are, we also should be working with clinical students and pre-service teachers. We should be contributing to the work of the university, of the college, of our schools, and considering research opportunities. And so those three pieces oftentimes are what create the challenges in what we do. So you the 10-minute slices on the days where a lot of those three pieces are happening, those are the those are the days that are are harder because you've got to balance either a hard no in terms of policy or you have to go through different meetings, different groups to talk to, just to get the idea of an idea started. And sometimes that is the work that that 10-minute slice of the other three parts of our mission that get grievancy and not not in the literal sense of grievancy, but like the parts that you sometimes you walk away frustrated by. It's those other pieces. Very rarely is my teaching the thing that creates the dissonance for me in my day.

Ben Webb 17:35

So, okay, I agree with so much of what you said. So, and let me please go with me on this short, somewhat medium walk. So, like when I'm in show season, like I will go home after this rehearsal, I will finish directing, we'll be like a couple of days from opening, and I will start replaying in my dreams, in my sleep. I will be replaying the rehearsal and I will be like thinking about it. And part of that dream is then, well, I should have done this or I could have done this. What do I have to do tomorrow? So it's like I can't turn my brain off. Yeah. And I'm and then I wake up the next morning, I'm not rested because I'm thinking about those things. Uh we're at the point in the school year right now where I will I will stress about like how my students will do on a test or on a project or if they're doing all right. But I'm at the point right now in this this part of the year where it's not the students, as in my ninth graders or my seniors, it's the college students that are teaching for the first time.

Andy Goveia 18:31

Yeah.

Ben Webb 18:32

And I'm at that point where it's like I'm looking at what their plan is, and I'm like, I know how they are going to do the plan, but they haven't done the plan. And and again, that uber marionette comes back in, like, okay, if I can just like I just want to help, but again, I have to have hands off. I have to give them the chance to either be awesome and succeed, or learn from doing it the first time and then saying they're gonna do it again. Yeah. So all right. Um, similarly, on that same kind of like vein of like not grievancy, but like yeah, the parts that like wear you down or even like just kind of like they tug on your heartstrings.

Andy Goveia 19:06

Yeah.

Ben Webb 19:07

What is something that everyone assumes is easy about teaching? For those of you who are not in person, you just got to see the greatest eye roll and brow pinch ever.

Andy Goveia 19:24

I think that there is a misconception that teaching is not tiring. And I think the I mean, you see the all the memes and whatnot, teachers or the the pseudo-studies that maybe are real studies, I've never dug into them. That you teachers have to make over a hundred decisions a day. And decision fatigue. We know decision fatigue is real, right? I I there have some days I just go home tired because I was managing a group of kids trying to keep them from talking over someone else, at the same time noticing a kid playing a game on a Chromebook and going to shut down the Chromebook while at the same time trying to answer. Answer a really detailed content question about what we're talking about in class while also trying to keep two kids from talking to each other who will not stop talking to each other. Like there is the plates in the air metaphor, right? Like there are so many spinning plates that some days I sit down at the end of the day at three or four and I just mentally I can't make another decision because my brain, I'm not physically tired. I am mentally unable to make a decision. Um teaching is tiring. If you are, if you are actively teaching, it is tiring. Um, and I again I am not being dismissive of manual physical jobs. I am not being dismissive of really tough work other people do. I just think that there are some pockets of society that think teaching is easy. They think I sit, you sit behind a desk all day telling kids to sit down and do the reading, and we go home and sit around and do nothing. Which happens some days.

Ben Webb 21:00

Some days out of necessity. And I think a lot of people they will look at well, you work from this time to this time, but when has someone who is teaching like the common misconception is how like don't bring work home.

Andy Goveia 21:18

Yeah, that's hard. Um, I have 101 students I actively assess and give feedback for. Some days you have to take work home, just so you don't feel like you're drowning the next day at work. Um, you said you set me off. Here you go. You wanted to get me fired up. Misconception, you only work during the school year. I ask my wife. I am good of the, let's just call summer 80-ish days. There's let's say there's 80 to 85 days of summer, right? I'm good at staying away from school about 30 to 40 of those days. Now I don't physically come in half of my summer. The next piece of fan mail is going to be a correction. Actually, my wife's saying it's more like 10 days. Um, whatever. That's fine. Um there are seasons of summer where I am either making sure my something in my room is cleaned up, ready to go. I have an idea, something I'm working on, I'm doing summer professional development, I'm reading something for school, I'm coming in to do work because there's various committees that occur and various summer initiatives that happen. Um and in some states, there are teachers around this country that they are expected to do a lot of professional development over the summer because that's the only time their district will support them getting professional development. And so there's a very real, while yes, I am compensated for nine and a half months of required in-person physical presence to do my job. There is two and a half months of the year where it is not just me going to Disney World, enjoying myself, which I did. I mean, I went to Disney World this summer, but that's not what I'm doing all summer. Like that was that my vacation to Disney World was one week of my summer. And even then, I was fielding texts and emails about school because it was the end of July, beginning of August.

unknown 23:14

Yeah.

Andy Goveia 23:15

The job teaching is a year-round identity. And I think that might be the misconception some pockets of culture in this country miss the job is nine and a half months. The physical attendance of work is nine and a half months. The identity and the pressure and the self-driven issues that come with being a teacher, that's a 12-month job. You don't just suddenly give up your classroom and your ideas and your wants and curiosities. Those don't just disappear for two and a half months. You don't just turn off that part of your brain.

Ben Webb 23:55

You can't. You can't. And I think so, and we're in a unique place because we work with young teachers who are starting their career. Do you see them have that moment where the light bulb clicks of like, oh, this is a lot of work?

Andy Goveia 24:11

Yeah, it's always like the middle-ish of my clinical experiences when I have them for semesters, where they go, wow, like what you have to do day to day is so much more than I thought. And like I can look at them and go, I've been doing this for 13 years. I know how to balance it for the most part. I know how to strategically plan out my week to get all the pieces taken care of. But yeah, it it is there's so many things that can go into an average week. And I'll take, take the three other pillars out of it. I'm just talking, I'll just talk about the teaching, just to make sure the teaching side, 85% of our job, right? Teaching, just to make sure that the teaching stuff happens, that the assessment happens, that feedback is happening, that I'm prepared, uh, mentally responding to parents, engaging with students. That, even just scheduling that out, can take a lot of time and balance. And so when you work with those early-on educators in that pre-service role, they have those aha moments, and you go, I know I can sometimes make it look easy. It but that's because I've learned how to do it.

Ben Webb 25:17

So similar frustration, but at the same time, like just kind of curious. What would you change overnight if teachers designed school from scratch? What would make the cut? What would you keep? And what would you change?

Andy Goveia 25:36

So you're so okay. I'm going to assume budget doesn't matter.

Ben Webb 25:40

Oh, I've got a budget question.

Andy Goveia 25:41

Okay, so okay. So within my current construct or just generically?

Ben Webb 25:44

Generically. You if you are the all-powerful, you get to make school look the way it should be, how you envision it. Like create your utopian school. What would that look like?

Andy Goveia 26:01

Class sizes capped at 20.

Ben Webb 26:04

Okay. I'm I'm gonna go futurist on this. Class sizes are capped, but availability to enter into that classroom is limitless.

Andy Goveia 26:15

Yes. I can go for that. I can go for that. Um I think there are some classes maybe that have to have more because of the function of what they are. Fine.

Ben Webb 26:26

I would just argue that, you know, one of the things that I learned coming out of COVID learning is anyone should and can access my kind my content. Yes. So if technology would make it so that anyone could get an education from Educator X because they're really good at this concept, this one unit or this one lesson, why not make that available?

Andy Goveia 26:51

Love that. Yeah. I would also, because of the uniqueness of my job, I would make the argument that every classroom in this country should have the opportunity to have pre-service teachers visit and be a part of something in your classroom. Um, getting to pass along what you have learned. It's the Yoda, right? To quote Yoda, pass on what you have learned, right? I think getting every teacher having a chance and and future teachers having the chance to see every classroom, I think is so powerful.

Ben Webb 27:20

We are what they grow beyond.

Andy Goveia 27:24

Yes. Once again, Yoda. Um folly, right? Teach them folly, success, right? Loss. Um, that clip just came through my TikTok the other day. Um I I mean the I mean the one thing I would change is I would make it that we actually fully fund education. I like I've said it on a couple times now, I'm going through a really cool process where I'm got a good chunk of money to fix my make not fix my room, make my room something cool. Every single classroom in this country should look cool and up to date and clean and new and fresh. And that only happens with the right amount of investment. And take the physical side out of it, there shouldn't be schools with lead pipes anymore. There shouldn't be schools with asbestos in them anymore. Like we should American schools should look and feel like they are leading the way. And we don't this country historically, systemically, does not fund education that way.

Ben Webb 28:23

It is interesting how you can tell from the outside of a building whether it's a school. Because again, they are designed very similar to not the most innovative or the most um fancy new buildings, so much as they are the very much built like a prison.

Andy Goveia 28:43

Yeah. That's a shame. The systemization of education in this country has led to that somewhat that we've see a utilitarian function, I think is the word I'm going for. Of yeah, we know what a school needs to look like because that's what a school looks like. And given our setting, I would always challenge people to go, well, what could a school look like? What should what could it look like? And I think actually I will add this on more outdoor space. The the power of having outdoor space for learning and just relaxation and play. Also huge and more recess. I would give schools more recess, more time to just let kids play. Even I would even make the argument at the high school secondary level, kids should have time to just chill and be without it being called a study hall. Yes. Or a supervised support time. Like give kids a 20-minute break somewhere to just let them hang with their friends, have a coke or a snack, and just be a person.

Ben Webb 29:44

And that's one of the things I think we have. So we have open campus, yeah, but that also requires there to be that time built into their schedule where they can actually go someplace and do something. Yes. So what we then have is we have kids who go from 7 a.m. all the way through with no breaks, and yet they have open campus where if they had the time, they could actually go down the street and get a soda. Yes. They could go across the street and go to the library. They could just sit in the grass and enjoy the outdoors a little bit. But because there's no time built into that schedule, it's like, well, you have open campus, but you can't use it.

Andy Goveia 30:24

There's there's it's a your schedule and your structure show your values, right? And our schools, because of our reputation, we do have schedules and structures currently that do prioritize making sure students are learning and successful and have every opportunity for that learning and success. It just comes down to, and again, this is me simply talking about what I would do. I am not being critical of our current system whatsoever. I'm not trying to be critical. I just think that anytime we can create space for kids to be kids, whether they're four or they're on the verge of adulthood, there's power in that that I think actually would lead to better outcomes for students.

Ben Webb 31:04

So you alluded to it. If money wasn't the barrier, yes. What would your, let's just say, not even like, what would school look like? Because I could easily say, all right, you give me X number of millions of dollars, this is how I would build the school of the future, and I would love that. But if there was a blank check specifically for you and your classroom and your teaching without budget or policy getting in the way, those kind of barriers, what would you pilot tomorrow? What would be the thing you try? What would be the experiment that you would want to test?

Andy Goveia 31:41

I take kids places to do learning straight up. When we're learning about civics and government, we're gonna be in DC doing that learning. If we're gonna learn about the civil rights movement, I'm taking you to Selma, Alabama. We're gonna learn about westward expansion, let's take a bus trip and let's trail the places where indigenous people were forcibly moved across. If we're talking like I we're uh I just talked about today the Tulsa massacre of 1921. Um let's go to Tulsa. Let's go find where the Greenwood district was. Like, if money's not an option, I'm taking kids and we're going to where this history and these concepts actually play out. And we would do the learning there. Now, I understand there are so many logistics to that and parent trust and right. But if money's not an option, we're going. We're gonna go to these places. Field trips are phenomenal. Experiential learning in the community, powerful. Um, my DC trip I do is why I lean into this idea of like, let's go these places. Like, you want to talk, you want to talk about navigating the Oregon Trail. Let's drive the Oregon Trail. Again, there's just you can go to these places. And if that that is what I would, that's what I would do. We would go and learn. I love it. Not just we go and learn.

Ben Webb 33:01

Also, notice how you started by saying like these are the misconceptions, and like you're talking about like, oh well, we only work from this time to this time. Common misconception. When you are going on a field trip, it's vacation for you. It's not.

Andy Goveia 33:17

Oh my gosh.

Ben Webb 33:19

Any teacher who's ever taken a class trip in town out of town is not vacation.

Andy Goveia 33:25

DC, my DC trip every other summer is not a vacation. Now, do I get an immense amount of joy out of it? Yes. Do I get to learn a lot? Yes. But am I also constantly for 24 hours a day responsible in this summer's case for the lives of 34 students? Yes. I have to be aware of where they are and that they're sleeping and that they're eating. And if there's an issue at one o'clock in the morning, I have to be ready to help them and support them. So yes. Did I this summer get to go and hang out in DC for a couple days and get to walk around some museums and do some really cool learning? Yes. But in between all of those moments where I had 10 minutes to walk around a museum, I'm helping this kid, helping this kid, doing this, doing this, doing this. So field trips are not. You got me fired up again. Field trips are not a cakewalk. No. And and some no, I will say no, hold on. I'm gonna I am gonna qualify. Some can be. Some can be really very easy. Curated. And less stressful to pull off.

Ben Webb 34:34

I I hear what you're saying. However, I would also, one of the things I was super blessed to do or have done in the past is not just local field trips, but international. Oh, I see. I'd love to do international. And those are a beast, even um, even outside of that. And you get so much support when you go through an agency that does shout out to World Strides. Yeah. I have gotten to take kids to the UK. Yeah. Used to take kids to Scotland for the fringe festival. That's right. I remember that. And so like taking a show international or even just taking the Spanish club down to Ecuador was fortunate to go on a Fulbright to Mexico, not with kids, but as myself. And then, like, if you think taking if if if anyone ever says that taking a field trip is easy, then I think they're volunteering to be a chaperone.

Andy Goveia 35:29

Yes. And like, shout out to the music people in our schools. Cause like they do these these trips, the band orchestra choir do these trips. Regularly. Regularly. Those are not logistical, those are logistical nightmares sometimes. And so yeah, I yeah, field trips. I so yeah, it's it would be the greatest blessing of our of our education system if we could get kids to all of these places to have that real authentic learning in the places, in my case, where history has happened or where these concepts are playing out in real time. But for any kind of student or person just to get to go and experience those opportunities, they are not necessarily the cakewalk that some might say that they are.

Ben Webb 36:11

Yep.

Andy Goveia 36:12

Even if you do go through a company like I've I've been fortunate too, where they do handle a good chunk of the planning, they don't handle the people.

Ben Webb 36:22

And that's because that's you know those people. Those are your people. They're my people. And they will listen to you, especially if you're the troll on the bridge. They will listen to you when they are told, hey, you need to stay within 10 feet of me as we're going down the Royal Mile towards Edinburgh Castle. If you can't see me, then you better come back this direction. Also, I'm the weirdo wearing this weird, obnoxious hat in the most crowded place in the UK at after this event. So, and we could take it, we could spend so much time to go.

Andy Goveia 36:54

There's gotta be an episode on field trips.

unknown 36:56

Yeah.

Andy Goveia 36:57

Down the pipeline, travel, yeah, educational travel. Well, let me can I let me let me push back on not push back on something you said, let me engage you on something you have said. That what is the what is your biggest frustration with people's can you be more specific? What is your biggest frustration with people's misconceptions about the work that educators do? Like what is the thing that you're like, I wish people would just let this piece go?

Ben Webb 37:28

I so bear with me again. This is this is not just education, this is also outside of the realm of education. So we often in SpeechCom talk about a field of experience. So, like what my understanding is and where there is shared understanding, there's an overlap between my field of experience and your field of experience. It's one of the first units we do in oral communication. So, my biggest frustration, mostly with education, but then in other places, is that we take our experience that we had in high school in education, and we force that view, that perspective, that kind of either jaded glass or rose-painted glass, we force that upon what we think our students are going through. And we have to remember the world that they are existing in right now, so different from when we were in school. My biggest frustration, and I see this a bunch with um with college students who are coming over, is like, well, this is what I liked when I was in school, or this is what it was like when I was when I was in school. And it's like, it's been a while. For for them, it might only be a couple of years, but I think with the ones that you are then seeing in uh elementary and middle school, like it's been a while. Schools change. And I think new math. There's oh so, like, if we're gonna say best practice, up-to-date best practice, not what worked for us 20 years ago, 30 years ago. And I think my biggest frustration then with that is because we are taking what we experienced, what we liked, what we didn't like, the teachers we liked, the experiences we did or didn't like, we then force that upon what education isn't now, as opposed to asking what can education be? And what is it currently? Because I think so much of it is we kind of pit it into this, this is what it's gonna operate as, this is what it has to be. Yeah. And then it's almost like we're forcing more barriers than have than have to be. Um, you were just talking about like experiences and going places to do stuff. We often say, well, we can't do that because, and then we come up with like these are the barriers, these are the restrictions, these are someone in some office across the way tells you you can't. Yeah. So like we don't ask what is the benefit. Or why is it so important? Instead, we say, well, these are the stopping blocks. And we don't creatively think, how can we then alleviate those? And I think sometimes it's like the people who are slamming on the brakes or saying you can't do it, they don't even know like what is existing in that classroom right now. They are, again, like you said, they're in a different office, some other place. And it's like, well, you can't do that for and then some random reason. It's like, well, no, I'm a teacher. I thought about all of these steps. I've got, I've got solutions to the no, we can't do that. Yeah. But I've but I'm a teacher. I problem solve for a living.

Andy Goveia 40:40

And yet it's still kind of like you know, we run into that, we, and this is the royal we here with lab schools. We run into this issue so much here being a part of university that we are P12 people going, we want to do this P12 thing. And you have a higher ed bureaucracy and system of operation that doesn't always understand why a P12 initiative or case or whatever might need a slightly different understanding and why sometimes rigidity can get in the way of progress in that way.

Ben Webb 41:15

I love the wording there. So I think part of what I would always push then is so you're a problem solver, you are thinking outside of the box. Okay, cross your T's, make sure you're doing what's best for your kids, and also make sure that you are being even more proactive than you think necessary, because then when you come across those barriers, you've got momentum.

Andy Goveia 41:40

Yeah.

Ben Webb 41:40

You've got people who are on your team saying, Yeah, you know, you need to have this exception for this rule. And if it's happening early enough in that process, they're gonna say yes. Yeah. Or they're gonna say, Well, I don't know. And then you've got that group of numbers and that group of people who are then, no, this is why it's so beneficial and why it's so necessary. You get parents who are like, Well, yeah, I'm gonna sign off on that. I want to help with that. Same thing with alumni. You're like, oh, yeah, when we were there, we got to do this and this and this. So it's almost like you kind of have to rally the troops. But yeah, that's that's my biggest positive frustration, which is people always say, Well, this is how it was. And that's coming from a like I teach in a building that is they hold their traditions so close. And it's it's challenging sometimes because it's like, well, if you want to change those traditions, it's gonna take time, or if you're gonna challenge those traditions, it's gonna take time, but also it can be done. Yeah. So kind of a closing question. Yeah. If you are ready for it.

Andy Goveia 42:45

I'm always ready, I think.

Ben Webb 42:49

Most of the time. What is one widely accepted practice in education that you think is actually holding students back? What is one thing that you think we are doing that we just kind of take for granted but in actuality it might be holding the kids back?

Andy Goveia 43:30

That's a very multi-layered question. Do you have an answer to this question right off the top of your head?

Ben Webb 43:38

I have an idea of I have I have the inkling of uh an answer on this one. Alright, what's your inkling? Because I'm It kind of fits with my last my last answer. Okay. Are we grading people and students the same way that we did for decades ago?

Andy Goveia 43:57

Are we grading similarly? Have has our different grading challenges and pushes re-taken us back to the point of contention and frustration, which led to different grading? You're kind of saying, because you and I both were in a standards-based environment. Has this movement into standards-based grading and the way we're implementing and working through it currently potentially actually bringing up the issues that it attempted to solve? Ooh, that's I was I was actually going to say doing any kind of formal grading is kind of before I can even make the case middle school shouldn't necessarily be graded, but like formal grades for anything under like fifth grade. I think actually putting grades on five-year-olds development. I think my I can't articulate it. I think I'm with you that grading might be the thing.

Ben Webb 44:57

And I only say that, like, I is maybe I have been doing SBG now for about 13 years. That's my entire career. And so, like, it's not even a dig at standards-based grading so much as it is when I first did it, I was having conversations with kids and it turned into the uh I would I would push on it, but I would like the conversations were how do I improve on this skill? Yeah. But in the past four years post-pandemic, post-pandemic, almost all of those conversations have turned back into how do I improve my grade? How do I improve my grade? Yeah. And I don't know, I don't know what did it. I don't know what forced that thing to the pendulum to kind of swing back.

Andy Goveia 45:44

An interesting observation because I have ran into just a little bit of that too. That it's no longer about okay, what will help me move move myself? Well, it the conversation really is how do I bring up my grade? And like we're in a situation where like there is no overall grade in in seventh and eighth grade. They don't get an an a letter grade or even an overall number based uh score. It's all individual standards, right? The conversation though is seeping back to how do I improve my grade. And I wonder, I want I just wonder. Yeah, that's a great reflection.

Ben Webb 46:19

I don't have an answer on it. And I and I don't have much of a criticism because I I every couple of years I adjust my scale, I adjust my language, I'm using different standards that I work with my department on. So like yeah, I'm still communicating. This is how you are at this skill. Yeah. But the conversation that comes back is or it's or here's the other focus conversation. It's a score conversation. Can I redo this? More often than not, before I've even given a kid a grade, they are asking, what can I do to redo this score? Living in the revision process as some confidence in your work. Yeah. I'm glad they understand that they can improve and they can do better. But yeah, sometimes it's they hand it in and they're already admitting defeat.

Andy Goveia 47:06

Oh, we're we're seeing at the middle level a little bit of, oh, I know I can retake it later. I'm just gonna give you what I've got. And a lot of times I'll look at some kids and go, I'd rather you turn it in day late and it'd be your the best work you can do than to turn it in now and just have to go back and fix it later. Like that, I yeah, it's grading.

Ben Webb 47:29

I'm sure it's gonna be something else the next time we do a hot take episode. Yeah, right now it's grading.

Andy Goveia 47:33

Yeah, yeah. And again, I think to reiterate what you said, we're not being critical of our systems. It well we say this, it's just the philosophy and nature of assessment and grading. Is yeah.

Ben Webb 47:45

Well, and and going full circle, like so, like this is something that we've been doing for a long time. Our teachers are have been doing for a long time. They've they've developed their own nuances, they've understood it better, they've found ways to like ebb and flow with it. So, like, it's not like we necessarily have started changing how we're explaining SBG to our kids. And we've also we've done a we've made some like so, for instance, when I do open house, I show my grading scale and I explain this is why mathematically on a 4.0 GPA scale with A through F, I'm gonna give the students a five-level A plus opportunity so that the math can make sure that the students who go above and beyond have that safety net, so it's not so it so it can still equate to a 4.0. So I'm even having those conversations with parents.

Andy Goveia 48:37

And parents largely get it. I think so. It seems the tide is turned with that.

Ben Webb 48:42

So it's almost like all of those different pieces are now lined up, and yet the conversations quickly come back to that grade.

Andy Goveia 48:52

Something one grade. Something changed in the pandemic. And I actually had a Zoom call with um a fellow history teacher a couple weeks ago. We talked about this for about 45 minutes. Just coming out of the pandemic, something has changed in the nature of how students process and engage with content and learning, especially in the disciplines like we're in, we're disciplinary based, right? I there's just been a shift in how students engage with it. And it's hard to say if we'll come out of that shift, if it's just like this group of kids that like their their early elementary/slash middle school experience was affected by COVID. And so will we come out of that or not? It's it's such an interesting phenomenon that we're kind of seeing right now.

Ben Webb 49:43

Yep. So those are my hot take questions. It was fun to see you kind of get fired up. This is I love this, and I think this will also be kind of a nice way to kind of continue to explore okay, perspective one, perspective two, yeah. Knowing our audience, there's a lot of different perspectives out there. I'm excited to bring in some of those outside voices too. Yeah, because at least I don't know about your building. My building is not uniform and we are all on the same page with these types of philosophies and such. And I um I value that.

Andy Goveia 50:18

Yeah. Well, yeah, we're the same way. There's well, I think, I think the one singular thing that unites probably both of our buildings is that we sincerely give a crap about our kids. And I say that word, like we genuinely do care about the students and their success and their well-being. How we get to that is where the diversity of thought occurs. That we, I think we all would agree kids should be healthy, safe, seen, and feel like they belong. We all agree with that no matter what age they are. The ways we get to that is where the diversity of thought happens. And I think that would that's a really cool episode in the future. As we add as we add to the list of episode ideas, which is what happens every time we get together.

Ben Webb 50:59

We have more ideas.

Andy Goveia 51:01

We create three to four episodes.

Ben Webb 51:03

But I but that's okay.

Andy Goveia 51:04

I'll be around for it. We're we're here for at least this year.

Ben Webb 51:08

Don't don't don't leave me hanging on this, okay?

Andy Goveia 51:11

I said at least this year. All right. No plans to bail, but you know. If a wall falls over, what are you gonna do? You know?

Ben Webb 51:20

Just move on over here.

Andy Goveia 51:21

Yeah, there you go. That yes.

Ben Webb 51:24

So we thank you for sticking with us. This is Live in Lab Schools. I'm Ben Webb. Andy Govay. Have a good week, everybody.