Ep #6 - Walking with Wildcats: The Admin Team at Thomas Metcalf School

What happens when a small K–8 school serves kids, teachers, and a university all at once? We invited Metcalf’s principal, assistant principal, and dean to pull back the curtain on lab school life: the fast pivots, the extra hats, and the reason everyone still calls it home. 

We talk about the power of a zone-defense leadership model where roles overlap on purpose and coverage never breaks. That structure fuels an open-door culture: tough conversations stay collaborative, visibility stays high, and support reaches the right person fast. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Intros

Ben Webb 0:08

Welcome to the pod. This week we are hearing from our Metcalf Elementary and Middle School administrators. We have three of them to hear what makes their school unique, what keeps them coming back to work, and a lot of laughs ensue. My name is Ben Webb. This is Andy Govey.

Andy Goveia 0:25

Welcome to Live in the Lab Schools. We're in the middle of the season.

Ben Webb 0:35

Yeah. It's been a good year so far.

Andy Goveia 0:37

Yeah. Cool. We're here.

Ben Webb 0:39

You know these people. I don't know these two. I don't spend enough time with these people.

Paths Into Administration

Andy Goveia 0:42

We a couple weeks ago we recorded our UHI admin episode, and it was interesting to get to hear uh about their approach because I don't work there, but this is really cool that I we're talking shop with my people. Um, and hopefully you'll hopefully you'll get some education today, Mr. Webb. We are lab schools, so I would kind of expect that from what we do. You would assume. Uh, with us today in the studio, which is Mr. Webb's classroom, principal of Metcalf, Carmen Bergman.

Carmen Bergmann 1:10

Hello.

Andy Goveia 1:11

Assistant principal, Cassandra Mattoon.

Cassandra Mattoon 1:14

Hello.

Andy Goveia 1:14

And Dean of Students slash Director of Athletics and Activities, Mr. John Hawes. Good to be here. We're here. Um to get us started, we've heard from Carmen before. And so, Cassandra John, uh, could you just walk us through who you are and how you came to this position?

Jon Haws 1:33

Sure. Um, so I taught in the classroom for uh a dozen years. I was a phys ed teacher, uh, and uh eight of those years were spent uh at the lab schools at Metcalf. And toward the tail end um of that uh first stint at the lab schools, um I I got my uh degree in administration, and then uh my first opportunity in admin came at Parkside Junior High. Served as the associate principal and athletic director there, and after a couple years just had the opportunity to come back to the lab schools, um, and so I I jumped at that opportunity, and so I've been here for um back for three years now in the administrative role.

Cassandra Mattoon 2:10

Cassandra. Hello again. Yes, I have been in education now for over 25 years. Most of those years have been in a teaching role. I started out working in a child development center, and after graduating, I became the director of that facility, did that for a couple years, realized that the classroom was where I belonged, and so went back to the classroom and taught third grade and first grade at a private school. And then the opportunity to move to Metcalf came up, and so I started at Metcalf 18 years ago as the preschool teacher, uh, moved up to kindergarten for some years, went back down to preschool, then back up to kindergarten, um, kind of back and forth there for a while. Got my administrative degree two years ago, and then the opportunity to move into the assistant position came about this year, and I um quickly applied and had another one of my goals in my life come true to be able to be the assistant now at Medcalf.

Ben Webb 3:28

So, one question I have for the three of you why MedCalf? What makes it special? What makes it a place to call home? And in your case, you kind of went away and came back, and then you're local, Carmen. So like you you've known about the lab schools and about Metcalf specifically. So, like what what calls to you about this place that you now have been in for a while? So, kind of Carmen, do you want to go first?

Carmen Bergmann 3:53

Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting journey for me because I I grew up in that building, actually. My dad was a professor in speech and hearing clinic um for 33 years. So I I grew up running those halls, and his best friend, Merle Howard's wife, Bonita Howard, was a PE teacher at Metcalf. So I even spent time in the building and in the pool as a youngster. So it was definitely a coming back home for me. Um all of my degrees have been at Illinois State University. I played softball there, um, which would have been at the time that I played, just across the street, um, down a ways, kind of by the State Farm Hall of Um Business. Business, thank you.

Andy Goveia 4:33

And uh the SFHOB.

Carmen Bergmann 4:36

Yes. Uh so um so that part was really interesting coming back. That the first couple of months looking out the window in onto the campus was very strange just because every stage of my life has um has been a part of it on the campus. Um and for me coming into this role, I I came from um consultancy, and I when I was in unit five, I went from principal, I was the director of elementary education. I never anticipated going back into a principal role. The only reason that the MedCalf role intrigued me was because it was different enough. Um, it was definitely not like the other roles that I had had as a principal. It's definitely more like a central office type role in a district. And the lab schools have always been a little bit of a mystery to me. I didn't really know that much about them. So um for me, that was a it was a new adventure and uh a good one.

Ben Webb 5:36

Okay, Cassandra, similar, different?

Cassandra Mattoon 5:39

Uh some similarities for sure. I also am a towny and went all through Unit 5 schools and Kingsley, you know, right across the street almost from Metcalf. So being growing up here, I always knew of the lab schools. My sister did attend UHI. Um, so it's been a part of my life in different ways. But I will say I didn't really still know a whole lot about the lab schools. Um I when I keep going, keep going. When I wanted to or knew that I wanted to become a teacher, there was no other choice but ISU for me either. I looked at nowhere else. I just knew I wanted to come here as the well-known teaching school. And so that's and all my degrees have been here as well. And then um the big piece for me is being able to be a part of both worlds. The at the college level, working with all the professors, the ISU students, all that collaboration is um highly intriguing to me, and I love those relationships, and getting to still work with the grade school and those students and teachers. So it's like the best of all of the worlds combined in one.

Ben Webb 7:01

So towney local. John, are you from the area then?

Jon Haws 7:04

I am not. I'm I'm from the uh DeCalb area originally. Went to Northern and then moved down this way.

Ben Webb 7:11

Okay, so then why Metcalf?

Jon Haws 7:14

Yeah, I mean for me, I'd be in line if I didn't tell you a lot of it, obviously have to do with my family. I do we have a pretty large family. Uh my wife and I have have four children, uh, all of which are at Metcalf currently, uh ranging from preschool up to eighth grade. And so I was in unit five, and I love my time there, but it was it was like being in a different time zone. You know, with the different schedule and and and they started an hour later um as well. It it was it was a challenge. Um and so, I mean, not not all of that, you know, factored into to my decision to come to Metcalf, uh back to Metcalf in admin, but um I also think about the uh as as a smaller school and smaller district, um, just our ability to um to shift, right, and and to pivot and to to try new things. It's it's just um there there's some more opportunity there, uh and certainly some um some challenges along the way that come with that, but um you you do have that opportunity to move relatively quick on on some new ideas and initiatives.

Ben Webb 8:10

Nice. So like as locals then, is there like a like MedCalf kind of like oh that place? Like you mentioned Kingsley, Unit 5. Like, is there kind of a stigma or is it is it like a is it a positive competition?

Carmen Bergmann 8:26

It's funny, not not so much with MedCalf, but a little bit with UHI. So, you know, my kids struggled a little bit with it at first because uh in our family, um, all five of us were normal community graduates and um and we're also involved in sports. So yeah, there was a bit of uh an issue with the with the UHI uh connection, but um everyone's gotten past that.

How Roles Differ In A Lab School

Andy Goveia 8:51

I found that too. I was because I went to normal west. And so when you get into this bubble and you go, oh my gosh, this place is great, people go, You hi, you think you high is great. And I'm like, I student taught there, like there's phenomenal teaching, yeah. But there's sports teams. I'm like, who? Yeah, okay, great. Like, yes. We have that, we have that, yes. Sorry that their sports teams are good sometimes. Like, we all the sports in this community ebb and flow, really, and we're gonna judge everyone's opinion on that. Sorry, I'm gonna get off that tangent. Um I just like to irk you. You do. Um so talk about not necessarily your day-to-day and what you the three of you do, but like what is it that makes your role at Metcalf maybe different from similar positions elsewhere? Like, John, you talked about being the assistant principal at Parkside, and a lot of your responsibility there was pretty similar to what you do now. But like what are some of the differences between being in that role in Unit 5 and your role now? Like, what would we see that's different about what you do? Yeah. So what makes your role though different from similar positions elsewhere? Like the what and I don't mean your day-to-day necessarily, but are there things that you have to do because you're here in the lab schools that might get handled by someone somewhere else, but it falls on your plate because of the uniqueness of the our structure?

Ben Webb 10:12

Yes, and I think the reason why I asked that is mostly like can what's one example without like going into all the details? Like, what's one example in terms of like, is it is it in the classroom? Is it in the extracurricular? Is it in the like what's one what's one example you can kind of do?

Jon Haws 10:30

Sure. I I would say a lot of it um is in my day-to-day, um, where there are uh a number of items that um maybe traditionally, for example, like athletics and activities that maybe um my role would not typically do, whether that be to schedule uh uh a minibus, like transportation, whether it be checking, you know, registrations, sports physicals, things like that daily, a lot of um um uh a lot of uh I would say mostly tends to be clerical in nature, but it's very time consuming and it's very um But very important. And and so there's just a lot of those things, that a lot of boxes to check each and every day. And and at times it's like, oh man, it if I don't do get to that today, then who's gonna get to that? And I it just things need to be done. It's very important.

Ben Webb 11:18

Nice. And I wonder, like I think in terms of like when I put when I put my theater hat on and I'm being a coach, like there is in some ways, I am the auditorium manager and I am a theater teacher, and because I'm wearing both of those hats, it's actually a benefit to me. Do you see that as a similar is that something similar for you where it's like because I have one foot on land, one foot on shore, this is this I can work with this. I get a lot of plates to juggle, but I can work with this.

Jon Haws 11:46

Well, there's certainly uh an awareness of everything that's going on, right? And and so it, you know, sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. I don't we don't I I don't see that as an issue, right? Because I'm I'm sitting in both those chairs. So, you know, I I get the opportunity to um kind of see everything from um not only a a view up top, but also ground level and and heavily involved in in every facet.

Andy Goveia 12:08

So, Carmen, I want to take something John said and take it over to your position. Because when you talked about why you came into this role, you talked that it looks a little bit more like a central office job. So could you walk us through why being the Metcalf principal looks a way differently than if, let's say, you were the principal of Prairie Land or Carlock or Glenn, right? Like what makes this job different from what an instructional leader might look like at a traditional public school, middle school or elementary.

University Partnerships And Extra Duties

Carmen Bergmann 12:38

Yeah, I mean, it's really not even recognizable in in my mind from the elementary, especially because I was an elementary principal, the middle school does add a dynamic. But um, even more so, I in the in a larger district, I had um there were people in the district who were doing so many of the jobs that I do. So there was a, and you know, I was the elementary curriculum director at one time. So the curriculum director and and their team handled everything to do with curriculum, and then I, as a principal, was really just like a support just for my teachers in that. I wasn't the creator, I wasn't the decider, I was just the support. Whereas now I'm I'm at all of those levels. Um we had people who handled HR completely, and even though we have an HR department, it is um in Illinois State, you know, HR department, I have to fill in all of the um K-12 kind of nuances of that. And um so there's a a big piece of that that I wouldn't have um handled as a as a principal in a larger district. And um then, of course, all of the work with the university. I I mean there isn't a week that goes by that I don't have a handful of meetings that are specific to the university. Um, so I think it's exciting in the sense that I I do get to be a part of a lot of different things, which is what I mean by it feeling like a little bit more like a central office position. You know, once a week uh our principals are meeting with Dr. Jones and we're talking about district level decisions. Um and so I do like that part of it. But the part that's hard for me is that when I was an elementary principal, I was in the classroom every day. And um I I don't have that opportunity in this job. So I do miss that, but I mean you can't have it all.

Andy Goveia 14:22

So take let's let's run with that for a second, because I think there is a giant misconception about the scope of your job out there by for a number of people. Could you talk about I know sometimes you block off time on your calendar to get into classrooms, but then XYZ pops up and you can't get there. Could you talk about just really quickly, uh just a little bit about those things that pop up that you're not gonna necessarily see somewhere else, which is why that's what gets in your way of being that presence you want to be.

Carmen Bergmann 14:54

Oh, that's interesting. Um, you know, it a lot of times it is something to do with with the university, something that has come up to do with um, you know, the the clinical opportunities that we have, or that, you know, that a group is gonna be coming to visit and um you know they won't want input on that, or um, you know, little things. I I guess these aren't things that necessarily come up because they're they're scheduled, but like the uh the university-wide safety um meetings and whatnot. Um I do think that there is a difference too in terms of the um our community access to the principal is a little bit different too. Um and so that's another piece is you know the uh like parent meetings. Uh, you know, uh more often I do have those impromptu meetings um at uh Metcalf than I ever had before. Those would have always been scheduled um when in my other role. So um I don't know. It's so hard for me. At the end of the day, sometimes I do look back and think, what is it that that captured my time? I think it's just the the the immense breadth of what I'm involved in. I, you know, like I if you compared the number of pots that I had when I was uh a principal um in the public schools compared to the number of pots that I have at Medcalf, there's a big difference.

Jon Haws 16:18

So Yeah, and I think it'd be fair to say that um in many other places there is a you know uh whether it's an additional person or an additional role, um, like you mentioned safety, for example, right? Like serving on um whether it is a uh a district wide uh committee or it is a university-wide committee that's looking at at safety at at the university and at the lab schools. Uh that may be handled by by somebody else, whereas you know that that does, you know, we work as a team on that, but uh you know that that falls on us to make sure that we are uh prepared um for for a variety um of things. So I I again I think there's sometimes a role specifically for that um in other places, whereas uh for us, we you know it's part of the team approach.

Andy Goveia 17:03

We need to do an episode just on the bureaucracy and hierarchy of ISU and how it's an episode.

Carmen Bergmann 17:08

We could do a whole season.

Jon Haws 17:12

When when when Carmen mentioned the pool at Metcalf, I thought that itself could have been another topic for conversation.

Andy Goveia 17:19

But they got $20 million to redo the pool, let us know. Cassandra, you're new to your role this year. And so I think asking you to compare your job to others would be deeply unfair. Could you maybe talk a little bit about, as you stepped into this role, what surprised you about being the assistant principal that maybe you didn't expect or you expected, but it's turned something differently than you thought it was going to be?

Managing Priorities Across PreK–8

Cassandra Mattoon 17:43

Oh, that's a great question. Um and also kind of a hard one. I I honestly can't say that at this point there's something that immediately comes to mind as surprising. And I think that is due to one of the differences in my mind between the lab schools and maybe other traditional schools is that our faculty has so many leadership role opportunities, and we're involved in so many committees, decision-making processes, processes throughout our time within the lab schools that having sat on prior committees, whether that's school level, district level, or university level, being in other leadership roles, we do have the ability to be exposed to so much that's going on within our lab schools and be hands-on at that ground level, that that really eased that transition for me into that because, and I think helped to your question, big surprises are like, oh my gosh, like I never knew that this was going on within our schools. I had no idea that working at ISU involved this, right? Like we're very much, I feel involved in a lot of things along the way through our leadership teams, like I said, through district committees.

Ben Webb 19:24

Um we kind of joked a little bit about like give me a 10-minute slice of your life. And you're like, pick 10 minutes of the day. Yeah, because it changes so much. It sounds very pretty similar for you guys.

Cassandra Mattoon 19:36

Yes. And so I would say for one thing that I've learned is and continue to learn is just how to manage all of the things that come up every 10 minutes, or um, really what are the priorities within each moment that I need to really think about and address. Whereas before in teaching preschool and kindergarten, pretty Self-contained, right? So I had my however many kids I was in those four walls doing all things. Yes, I was very aware and I cared very much about the whole school. Um, but now really being able to focus in on that pre-K eight and what are the overall needs of everyone and how to prioritize those in the moment day to day. And when somebody comes in, I'm the person who wants to, the type of person who just wants to help and solve and support in any way. And maybe I have to at some point say, I'm gonna have to get back to you because I gotta prioritize something else. Yeah, and then come back. And so that can be hard as someone who wants to just yeah, be there at all moments for all things at all times.

Team Approach And Cross-Training

Carmen Bergmann 20:48

You know, after I'm gonna come back to your question, Andy, that you had asked about when I block off time. Um hearing both John and Cassandra talk, I think it it clarified for me a little bit. I think the biggest thing that comes up when I try to block time is that any phone call, anything that happens in a classroom, anything that happens in the building, much like what John was saying in other places, there's somebody who has a role. Whereas I have the three of us, those are we have all those roles. So there isn't anybody else to call. It's one of us. And yeah.

Andy Goveia 21:20

So let's that is a perfect segment of our next planned question, which is you all have kind of talked about, and it's been it's really fun to do this podcast when we have a group of people because you get to see how they interact together. Yeah, and like watching the three of you when you talk about moments that pop up, all of you looking at each other, it leads to this really great question of what does the the like the team? What does the team what does the admin team approach look like at Metcalf? And it and I say that not jokingly at all, but like anytime they said, oh, someone's gotta jump up, all three of them in the room are looking at each other, like, oh, you gotta jump up. And like they're having this moment. So what does your admin team approach look like, the three of you together?

Carmen Bergmann 21:59

So one thing I want to say, I wanted to follow on when John was talking that has been such a huge blessing for me in the time that I've been here is that um all of my administration experience was in elementary, so K-5. And the middle school aspect added an entire different lit layer that I didn't understand. It was again part of what excited me about this. But having John in the role that he's been in has been amazing because I know if it's anything to do with middle school, he's gonna be able to support that. So I didn't feel like I needed to become an expert in middle school. And I think anytime you're on a team, that's the biggest, the biggest advantage is that we all have our own niches, right? And so I didn't have to become an expert on middle school. I I I I I learn from John every day, but I know that I can go to him when it comes to things, scheduling pieces. Um it it is an entirely different beast than scheduling of what I've had before. And um, so again, I didn't have to become an expert in that because I already have someone on the team who does that.

Jon Haws 23:12

Yeah, I I'd say um, you know, for me too, and thank you, Carmen, I I I really feel the same way about this team. Like we do bring different strengths to the table, even though we have maybe certain titles or certain roles, and maybe on paper it looks like it should be a certain way. Uh, at any given time, any one of us can can pick something up and run with it. And and while we may need to lean on each other at different times for different things, um, and and and at times it's very obvious, right? Like whose lane this this falls in. And we do our best, uh, you know, as as an administrative team and and with our staff to say, hey, if you have a question about this, you go to Carmen or or go to Cassandra myself. Um, but really it's it's zone defense all the time because at any one moment, um, you know, I could be gone, Carmen could be out, Cassandra could be out. And um, it's an awful feeling when you don't feel like you can be gone, right? Like, oh, I I'm I'm not feeling great, or maybe I have some personal thing, I have some family things come up, like I I I have to be in the building because of this. Um, but the ability to lean on this team, lean on them. Uh and and it's not just even the people in this room. I want to I want to express that as well. Um it's it's yeah, it's our truly our our our teachers and support staff as as well. You know, we can we can lean on one another and feel like, yeah, we can take a deep breath at times, or heaven forbid, we go to an appointment or sometimes eat lunch, right? Like we can we can lean on each other. So yeah.

Carmen Bergmann 24:36

I want to kind of add on that. And part of what you said, Ben, as as soon as I got done talking, it occurred to me when you when you talked about our admin team sitting here, it's hard for me to even um think about the not having the other parts of our admin team, and that is Becky Newskin, our business manager, Marissa Held, our office manager, um, Jordan Harrison, our um tech um director, and then um Lisa Um is uh the Hillia director as well. So um that even when John was saying feeling okay about being away, this is the actually the most comfortable. I at one on one hand, I told you I have many more responsibilities here than I've ever had. I'm also the most comfortable to to be away um because everything we are all cross-trained. Um and yeah, uh it it is it is truly a full team effort in what we do.

Andy Goveia 25:33

Kerman's also grateful for building leadership team chairs that she has had as well.

Carmen Bergmann 25:38

All of the building leadership chairs. All two that she has. Well, especially the one this year.

Andy Goveia 25:41

Yeah, this year's is great. She's really good. She is the best. The way better than the guy they had last year. Last year was a disaster.

Carmen Bergmann 25:49

I couldn't have made it through my first couple years without Andy.

Andy Goveia 25:51

Cassandra, what do you you're new to the team?

Culture Of Openness And Visibility

Cassandra Mattoon 25:53

Yes. And I would echo and reiterate everything that has been said so far. And relating that back to your question of like what's been a big surprise, and why I can say there's not a lot of huge things that come to my mind as far as surprises, because of the team in which we surround ourselves with the people around this table, including, you know, faculty, all the faculty and associate he does. Um, you know, all the faculty and associate back at school, the office staff, like the team does definitely expand beyond this table of people that are here right now, but that has helped because we can lean on each other. There's never been a moment where I have thought that I can't go to, again, anyone in the school, but specifically in this new role to Carmen and John and ask a question, feel comfortable having a conversation about something. And then two, through that, asking that question is this something that I'm supposed to handle? Is this something that you handle? Who's and sometimes it's there's not a necessarily a clear cut, it's we're making those decisions of, you know what, I got this one, or who is the best person for this? And so that has really helped, and I appreciate that team. And as I said before, too, like we have some very broad understandings of all the things that go on, and now I'm learning, okay, but exactly what are the details of how that works or who is specifically. I've always had that list that says who's responsible for what thing that we all get at the beginning of the year, right? At those in services. But when it comes down to the true in that moment, exactly how are those things handled and what are we going to do? And I think just our flexibility and willingness to support each other is huge. And I'm very, very grateful for our collaborative approach to be the best.

Andy Goveia 27:58

One thing I think that this is I'll take, I'll take a personal sidebar. I don't do this a ton, but I'll do a personal sidebar here. One of the things I don't think the three of you have realized you've said is you've set a very open culture of conversation. Like I have no problem walking to into any of your offices. And like John and I don't always agree on everything middle school, but I can walk in, John and I can have a conversation. I'll go, I don't see it that way. I'll go, all right, well, we talked. And there's no ill will. I can walk into I the culture the three of you have set, whether you realize that or not, where people can walk into the office and know they're going to be supported and helped, or you've created spaces of thought and conversation. I I hope you realize that you've created that. So kudos.

Jon Haws 28:37

Yeah. And and I will say, Andy, real quick, one thing that Carmen mentioned was it's very difficult to get into classrooms, right, regularly. But that does not, and to your point a moment ago, does not mean that um we're we're not visible and and responsive, right? And so I think because we are, you know, at different times working together and collaborating with with teachers, it it's funny, it kind of takes you away from those moments where we just want we just want to be in a classroom, we just want to be with kids. And um, you know, the truth is like, well, I can't be with kids because I'm too busy supporting kids, right? Or teachers, right, in in other ways. And um, so I I just again with our with our um this admin team, um, really finding ways to meet the needs of of everyone to the best of our ability. Um, it it sometimes does come out of detriment to the where we'd rather we we love helping out, right? It's not that but we we would we want to find times, you know, to to be in the classroom or regularly, things like that.

Ben Webb 29:32

And Carmen, your email signature.

Jon Haws 29:34

Brilliant.

Carmen Bergmann 29:36

Thank you.

Ben Webb 29:37

I love that so much. I can't do it. I just can't. Well, I mean, you were talking about we do so many things. I'm in so many different committees, whether it's here in my building, at the college level, across both buildings. But like, if I send an email to you, I see that little signature, I'm like, okay, I can trust this expert that it's become if I don't get a response back in 15 minutes, I know a good enough reason, which is it's because you're there for those kids.

Carmen Bergmann 30:01

So I'm I'm I I would say, I mean, that that came out of just I I needed something to make myself feel better because the the pure volume of emails that we get. You're accessible. I I have never had anything like that before, and I had a lot of guilt about not responding right away. And you know, there'll be times I'll be gone for an hour and I'll come back to 60 emails. And so um, yeah, that just it took it off my plate a little bit.

Big Challenges: Identity And Impact

Andy Goveia 30:28

Did you get in? So if you go to if you ever get an email from Carmen, it says at the very bottom under her contact info, I'm so fortunate to spend my days from eight to three with 500 incredible learners and nearly a hundred dedicated staff members. During this time, my focus is on supporting our school community. So email responses may be delayed or brief. Thank you for understanding as I prioritize our students' learning.

Ben Webb 30:49

When was the last time you had to leave at three?

Carmen Bergmann 30:52

No, but that's where I'm saying that eight to three is when everybody is there. But you know, I mean, just considering those emails from three to three to ten.

Andy Goveia 31:00

So as we kind of get to the end-ish of our time here, um there's so much joy in this conversation. So let's turn it and go a little negative. What John and Cassandra, tell us about your boss. How is she? What for each of you in your roles and your work here and the time you've been here, what's a challenge that you see for the lab schools in general? Maybe not necessarily Metcalf, but from your positions, the work you do day to day, what's a challenge you see for our system? Um, challenge could be positive, could be negative, but what's a challenge that you see for us as we continue this mission of serving the greater educational community?

Cassandra Mattoon 31:44

I would say one thing that is a challenge is simply answering that question and being accountable to what is a lab school. And so what is our role? How do we do things differently, better? How do we um keep meeting the needs of not only our students that are enrolled within the lab schools, but the entire ISU community as well. And I say that because there's departments all over. It's not just, you know, there's teaching programs in all the different departments. So that's a huge challenge to be able to really meet all of those needs and stay in the forefront of education and um keep being those leaders within education. So that constant defining of what are the lab schools and how do we keep showing everyone how wonderful we are, but that we are, you know, up and coming with what's best for students everywhere.

Ben Webb 32:58

I am gonna go full English teacher on you because you answered the question with the question. Um are okay, so I'm gonna here's a quotation Are we a mirror held up to society to say this is what education looks like, or are we a hammer to shape it?

Carmen Bergmann 33:16

Ooh, that's a good question.

Ben Webb 33:18

Hammer or mirror? Oh, that's a Mr. Web. This is what happens when you answer the question either with the question.

Cassandra Mattoon 33:26

Well, isn't it really mean to do that, like as a way around the question? But yes, that is I think that's what we struggle with all the time, though, truly. Um I would say, oh, we've gotta be a gentle hammer. Gentle, gentle hammer. Like those little ones.

Andy Goveia 33:52

Very reflective hammer. I love it. Very shiny.

Carmen Bergmann 33:55

So I'm gonna use an analogy um that I actually just thought of. Um with my time at ISU as a softball player and um what I see as the biggest challenge. So when I um when I came to Illinois State, obviously everyone on that team in a Division I school with scholarships, we were all the all-stars of our teams. Um, so I was the best player on my team for one of the best players of my team for a for a long time. And then all of a sudden I came to ISU and I was on a field with a bunch of other all-stars. So none of us were in that all-star position anymore. And it was, it was such a huge shift that my first reaction was to just be careful and make sure that I did things that I knew that I was good at, that I, that I did well. But that wasn't gonna get me the playing time, that wasn't gonna get me my goals. And so um I do feel like it's a little bit like that at the lab schools because our teachers are the all-stars of teaching. And um I think that in some cases that comes with fear of making mistake and not not being that all-star and uh not feeling as comfortable taking those risks to just try something completely new and accept the fact that it might be a little bit ugly or messy at first. And um, so I think it's hard. You know, teachers in general have the reputation of being perfectionists, and I think that our teachers in the lab schools um are very, very strong teachers, and uh again, kind of the all-stars coming coming in, and uh it's it's hard. It's hard to uh uh be vulnerable, I guess.

Shout-Outs And Friday Innovations

Jon Haws 35:38

Yeah, I think for me, um the challenges our lab schools have constantly is just proving to the university, right, and the community like why we're needed. Um you know, you want to make sure that you are advocating for the lab schools, um, you know, or Metcalf specifically in our in our case, um, but also making sure that we're not like a parasite to the university, right? Um we we want to make sure that there's that dual role, right? We have to make sure that we are um really living up to our expectations, and one of our pillars, right, the in the mission of the lab schools is um is service to the university uh and and the profession in general. And so when we look at that, but also we're so different than any other department on campus, and constantly advocating for like, well, wait a minute, let's think about the K-12 population and how different that is. Educating K-12 versus educating um at the collegiate level is is much, much different. Uh and so um, you know, it's it's constantly um you know working in that balance of of advocacy um and and and what feels like needing to to prove our our worth, even though I I feel like the um university really um you know appreciates at least we feel with with clinical opportunities um and and and what we're able to do with the College of Ed and in collaboration with them, it's it's very evident that the the lab schools are are a great place to be. Um however it doesn't stop us from you know when when something uh maybe something new comes comes across our desk, we we just look at it with a very different lens. And it just you know says, oh, well, wait a minute, before we make this adjustment, what does that mean for us in K-12? Um, you know, what what does that look like? So it's just something that's always maybe in the back of our minds uh that may not be on the minds of the forefront of everybody else um uh on campus.

Andy Goveia 37:31

If ever you need a new mascot, parasite the lab school parasites fighting for food. Um what's a we got a couple more minutes left. And so uh this wasn't on the list, but I it I promise this is not a tricky question. I promise. And Ben just redirected me because I walked away, I moved away from the microphone like I do. What's a shout-out you want to give to something happening in our building right now? Something you're excited about, someone who's doing something cool, it could be kids, adults, what just a shout-out, something you wish people you could shout. This is so amazing. Let me tell you about it.

Ben Webb 38:07

And I just want to thank all of you for saying the people at this table, because I felt included, even though I don't work in your building.

Jon Haws 38:17

I I think I'll I'll start with this one. I I do feel like the number of um initiatives that we have going on right now, um, and and and it could be even the the smallest risks that teachers are trying or new things are trying in their classroom. Uh I I do feel like our teachers have those um opportunities and often they run with them. Uh and no one is more um you know critical um of themselves and and more concerned with failure than than those who are trying those things. And we're just it's you know part of our job just to continue to support them and to kind of you know give grace when possible, say, hey, it didn't work out. Well guess what? You learned something. You learnt you learned something that doesn't work. Now it's you know go back to the drawing board. But there are a number of things, whether it be our Friday workshops, whether it be um um ways that are uh we have a third and fourth grade um uh set of classroom teachers that are looping. Um we have new strategies in our first and second grade classrooms this year, uh outdoor education, obviously, right? Like a number of different things that we have going on that are well beyond uh maybe what would be expected or even um even tried in a in a traditional public school setting. Uh so just truly a shout out to our staff for just never being satisfied and and getting used to kind of being a little bit uncomfortable at times, even though it's it's very hard for teachers, right, to uh sometimes accept failure or go down a path that may not work out. Um and and so yeah, definitely kudos to our our staff for just trying new things constantly.

Fast Five And Closing

Cassandra Mattoon 39:55

And I would say yes, yes, yes. To everything that John just said, and also to pick up a little bit on one of those pieces and not to go too much into this at this point in time. But our Fridays look very different this year at Metcalf for many of our grades. And even this semester, we're adding in some new pieces too that I can't think of anybody really within our building that hasn't done some new things on Fridays this year, who hasn't had to adjust, who hasn't had to go, oh, that didn't quite work. What are we doing next? And those reflective conversations, those collaborative conversations throughout this whole year with our Fridays has just been amazing. And I am so grateful to our faculty for being able to have conversations. And I'm just going to speak for myself directly because I meet with them and I'm like, how is this going? What do we need to do? How do we adjust? And having those open conversations. And it's been a lot of adjustments throughout this year, but we're doing things to better meet the needs of our students. And I am just so thankful and so grateful for every faculty member who's been along on this journey and helped shape it and continuing to help make it the best that it can be.

Carmen Bergmann 41:28

Yes, we've had a lot of risk takers this year and um staying very strong through that journey. Um, I guess one of my biggest shout outs would be, and this is just um Metcalf in general, is something that I've learned and um that really strikes me. We've had interviews uh with candidates who will ask something about, like if you could say one word about Metcalf, what would it be? And you go around the table and everybody says home. And uh, you know, the those people who have gotten the job and then come in have said that is absolutely what it is. I mean, it is a group of people who are so incredibly dedicated to the work that they're doing, but also um to each other. I've said many times, we may not all agree, but if any one of our staff members goes down, the entire staff will be there to pick them up. So um it is a pr it is a pretty good feeling. But I think some of that stems from the fact that we have kids there from pre-K through eighth grade as well. Um, the kids are really, really wrapped up. The teachers know them, they know their families, they know their siblings. Um, so I I I guess just a really big shout out to creating that kind of an environment and uh of home.

Andy Goveia 42:38

So when it's your first time on the pod, you get what we call the fast five. So John and Cassandra, these are brief, quick questions. Lightning round. Lightning round. Are you ready? Let's do it.

Cassandra Mattoon 42:48

Do we go one at a time or answer at the same time?

Andy Goveia 42:52

You I'm gonna want you to go one at a time because Ben's sound editing is is good. I don't know that he wants that challenge. Uh, who would you say most led you into education?

Jon Haws 43:04

Uh for me, it'd be my grandfather.

Cassandra Mattoon 43:09

Um, I would say teachers that I've had in the past, especially my sixth grade teacher.

Andy Goveia 43:16

What is your go-to caffeine to get through the school day? Oh, just coffee.

Cassandra Mattoon 43:22

Coffee.

Andy Goveia 43:23

Favorite subject when you were a student? P-E.

Cassandra Mattoon 43:28

Reading.

Andy Goveia 43:29

What you pick one of these categories, don't do us all three. Steve Evans did all three. It was a very lengthy conversation. What are you either reading, watching, or listening to right now? And it does not have to be scholarly, it can be trash.

Cassandra Mattoon 43:44

I am in the middle of the uh Glass of Thrones series.

Jon Haws 43:50

Wow, okay.

Ben Webb 43:53

Man, you're gonna make me think about this one. Lightning round.

Jon Haws 43:59

Yeah, I know, I know. So it's you're sorry, reading.

Andy Goveia 44:01

What are you reading, watching, or listening to?

Carmen Bergmann 44:03

You don't have time for any of that. That's what I'm saying.

Jon Haws 44:05

Like, I I just ounce. Um if it, you know, if it's obviously it's not working at working a game at Metcalf, I'm going to a game or driving to a practice or um, so I I am lacking in downtime. I am watching your life. Yeah, watching your life. And occasionally the inside of my eyelids, not often.

Cassandra Mattoon 44:23

You know, it does take me about three months to get through one book, but I will I'm there. I'm reading as much as I can.

Andy Goveia 44:30

Finally, what is your favorite thing about being a part of the lab schools?

Jon Haws 44:38

Uh for me, it's it's it's family. Um, whether it's again my own, you know, family who who's at the lab schools, it's just a part of who we are now. Um, but also as Carmen said, it's like it's truly it's dysfunctional at times, right? We fight, but uh, but but it's our Metcalf family. Um and you know, I you know, Andy knows exactly what I'm talking about because we've had many many a fireside chat at Outdoor Ed.

Andy Goveia 45:02

We have truly quite midnight fireside chat. Right.

Jon Haws 45:05

Um but but truly, I mean that's that's what it is. I I try and envision myself, you know, elsewhere, or like what would it look like? I I it's it's hard picturing not getting up and and coming to Metcalf every day.

Cassandra Mattoon 45:20

It's my second home. It's where I belong. Due to the people, the students, the faculty, the families, everyone. It's home.

Andy Goveia 45:30

So this has been Live in the Lab Schools. Thank you to John Hawes, Cassandra Mattoon, Carmen Bergman for our conversation about what administrative work looks like at Metcalf. Thank you, all three of you, for being here. And that'll be it for this week, Mr. Webb.

Ben Webb 45:45

To learn more about Thomas Metcalf School, find us at metcalf.elinoystate.edu. That is M-E-T-C A L F dot Illinois State.edu.