Ep #8 - Why Lab Schools Matter and How They Should Lead Systems Change with Dean Bryan Zugelder

BONUS EPISODE

We sit down with Dr. Brian Zugelder, Dean of the College of Education at Illinois State University, to unpack a nontraditional journey that now fuels a bold vision for the university’s lab schools. We dig into the educator continuum—recruitment, preparation, induction, leadership, and retention—and why keeping great people in the profession requires real pathways and support. From clinical practice to statewide partnerships, he explains how ISU can model promising practices and help shape policy rather than wait for mandates.

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Transcript

Welcome And Warm-Up Banter

Andy Goveia 0:08

Hey, this week on Live in the Lab Schools, you have Dr. Brian Zugelder with Ben and I this week. He's here to talk about his educational journey, being the dean of the College of Education here at Illinois State University and what that relationship looks like from his office to our schools. It's a great conversation, a fun one, a hopeful one. Stick around. Welcome to Live in the Lab Schools. Today we have Dr. Brian Zugelder, Dean of the College of Education at Illinois State University. Mr. Webb, here we are. It's it's a good day. It's a good day. We just this is our second recording of the day. Got another one we did that was a great conversation. We can't wait for you to hear also.

Ben Webb 0:52

I don't know if I don't know how you are about this. I feel like I could do like seven in a day and then just listen back to them and say, okay, when did I get tired? I would love that.

Andy Goveia 1:02

We need I really do like doing more than one a day. Yeah. I've learned that through this. That doing two or three when we get together is better. I think the conversation's better. And our second conversation is always better than the first. So I think this is gonna be a great episode.

Ben Webb 1:15

How often is your second lesson better than your first lesson? Depends on the group of kids in the room. I always feel bad for my third class because I'm like, all right, I got it figured out for you guys. I'm gonna go back and talk to my first hour and like apologize.

Andy Goveia 1:32

I figured it out. And see, that's the great thing about teaching two different grade levels. I only have two classes at each grade level. So I get my first try or my second try is the better try. I don't I don't have the benefit or the curse of the third or fourth attempt.

Introducing Dean Brian Zugelder

Ben Webb 1:46

So I started actually doing this where my first class period is always a day behind because I start a new lesson at 10 o'clock. Oh so then I can work on it, I can get all the kinks out, all the bugs out for that second class, and then I can sleep on it. The next day I can give them a better lesson.

Andy Goveia 2:04

Oh, that's such a good idea. It's been fun. I love that. We should break that down in a future episode. I mean, pedagogy is my thing. We need to do it. So that brings us to today's conversation. Dr. Zoo Gelder, Dean of the College of Education here at Illinois State University. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Thank you. Hearing that this is your second of the day and that you expect this to be better. That's uh some tough shoes to fill. You guys I I hope I don't disappoint you.

Andy Goveia 2:34

We uh so to give a little bit of insight to our listeners, we send all of our guests a shell of questions, the the big points we're gonna hit. Dr. Zagelder, I hope you're cool with us. We meander a little bit. We take some of what you say, we go with it a little bit, stretch it, tease it. Uh, and so we're looking forward to this conversation today.

A Nontraditional Journey To the Deanship

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I am too.

Andy Goveia 2:55

So could you start us off? Who are you? How did you get here? Not necessarily the walk from DGarmo to get here, but how did you get to become the dean of the College of Education at ISU?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

That's a very good question. Um, my path is quite non-traditional because usually someone who becomes a dean, just in my experience and knowing um, you know, colleagues throughout the years, is you go to graduate school, you start out as an assistant professor, you work your way up through the ranks, maybe you then become a department chair, maybe an associate dean, and then you become a dean. For me, I actually started out uh as a public school teacher in Florida. I'm from Florida, born and raised. And uh I um just kind of fell into higher ed somewhat serendipitously. I never thought I would be a professor, never thought I would be a higher ed administrator. I always thought that my path was classroom teacher. That's what I wanted to do with my life because of teachers who inspired me. But then as I got to know other colleagues in the field who were leaders in the field, they kept encouraging me to pursue leadership opportunities because I guess they saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. And so I always thought my pathway would be a school administrator, maybe an assistant principal, then a principal. Um, and that's you know what I thought maybe was going to happen one day. I uh, you know, after going through the process of uh getting into the administrative pool in my school district to become an assistant principal, I was actually offered a position as an assistant principal. At the same moment, I had this opportunity somewhat fall in my lap to work at a university on a training grant to train literacy coaches and principals in best practices for uh teaching literacy in elementary school. And so that was really my entry point into higher ed. And so I ended up serving on a grant team uh through the University of Central Florida and the College of Education. The dean of the College of Education at that time was the principal investigator of the grant. And she had this um amazing opportunity that she needed somebody to lead. And so she approached me and asked me if I would be willing to shift my priorities to um work in the clinical experiences office where I was partnering with school districts, working with student teachers, working with pre-service teachers and faculty and programs. And I just thought it was a great opportunity. It was right along my uh passions, and that is really where I got my start in teacher education. And so I worked very closely with school districts all along the way. Um, I uh got to work with those who supervised student teachers who were mentors to those in practicum, uh, in uh field placements, service learning courses. And I became this leader in the state of Florida in clinical practice, where other universities were reaching out to say, hey, we noticed that you're doing this in this area. How can we work together? Or have you thought about this? Or can you help me troubleshoot? So I kind of evolved in that space. But all along, while I was working with other professors in the College of Education, they were helping me understand that I really was doing the work of a professor because during this time I was writing grants, I was publishing, I was serving on dissertation committees, I was teaching classes, I was developing classes. And um I somewhat realized that I probably needed to pursue the academic pathway. So that was really what I ended up doing kind of after the fact, so not following that traditional pathway. So I served as an assistant professor at East Carolina University. I worked at the UNC system office on the lab schools development team for the whole UNC system in North Carolina, um, and also served as the director of teacher education and development for the UNC system. So I was working with colleges of education all across North Carolina. Um, but I had this additional person who said, you know, you really would um do well as an associate dean. I just became a dean. And I would love to bring you with me to Virginia. Um and so I ended up applying for the position and got the job as associate dean in the College of Education at James Madison University. Um I earned tenure, uh, was associate professor in the Department of Learning Technology and Leadership Education, served as the graduate director of teacher leadership, our master's degree and graduate certificate programs. Um we led the uh the uh university development for the inaugural EDD program in the college, um, developed a grow your own program for non-traditional pathways for teachers. Um and of course, I was also promoted to professor while I was doing the associate dean job. And I had the amazing opportunity to develop the inaugural lab school uh at James Madison University. Who we had the chance to meet. You did earlier this year.

Andy Goveia 9:02

The team came here and we got to hang with them.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Yes, yes. And you know, while I was serving as associate dean, I was reached out to by search firms for many different uh dean level positions. And the timing wasn't always right. I didn't, you know, I thought, well, it's nice that they're reaching out, but thank you, but no thank you. I'm really enjoying what I'm doing right now. Um, but it was last year I was reached out to by a search firm, Greenwood Asher, and they said, there's this opportunity at uh Illinois State University. Would you be interested in applying? So I did my homework, did my research, and noticed that ISU had a lab school, um, had a long history of serving as teacher education leaders. And I said, that is the place for me. And so I said, I'm going to put my name in the hat, and here I am as your dean of the College of Education.

Ben Webb 10:03

Some people make lab schools, and then some people like, oh, they've got that. I want that.

Building Clinical Practice And Statewide Partnerships

Andy Goveia 10:09

Yeah. And some people literally start lab schools in different states. We don't have enough time. I we need to do a second episode where we just unpack your journey because it complex journey. It's so interesting because a lot of times people talk about I've wanted to be a professor forever. And it's so interesting to hear your story of I thought I would I was gonna be a teacher in the classroom. And you had this these opera these moments open up where you're like, sure, that sounds like a cool thing I'd love to do, which has now led you to this. I have to imagine being a dean is probably very similar to being a classroom teacher in some ways. Um, you got your characters in in the in the office, right? Um but just that it's it's so interesting that that your your journey has been a series of a door has opened, and you said, I'm gonna walk through that door. Uh and that's so cool that you've been open to so many doors.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I've left out um of quite a few of those doors as well in that story. That was maybe the Cliff Notes version, even though it was quite a long uh answer. But yeah, that the journey is definitely non-traditional and and quite interesting and complex.

unknown 11:21

Very cool.

Andy Goveia 11:22

So again, whole episode we could do just on your journey. Let's jump to us, your job here. You're the dean of the college of education here at ISU. You oversee what is it, four, no, sorry, three different schools technically. Uh so the Department of Education Administration's foundations, school of teaching and learning, department of special ed, in addition to a number of offices, uh uh organizational, I don't know how to say this if I'm like, lobby centers, the lobby, different centers, default center, the different centers and units, the lab schools being one of those units. Yes. So when you look at the College of Ed, from your vantage point, this is I think six, you're six months into the job now. I think. Yes. So it's half a year. Where, how does I'm gonna this all it all centers on this question. So I'm gonna try to phrase it correctly. The College of Ed, I think it's fair to say at ISU, is a very robust, interconnected beast of a college. I think that's that's a fair way to say we have a lot of parts, they they connect, and there's a lot to it.

Ben Webb 12:27

No university produces as many teachers as us. That's right, among all the public universities.

Andy Goveia 12:34

Among all public universities. That is correct. So when it comes to the lab schools and this this interconnected beast that is the college of education, what is that relationship between the lab schools and the college? And what does the dean's office, your job, do in relation with that relationship?

Choosing ISU And The Draw Of Lab Schools

How The College And Lab Schools Interconnect

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yeah, good question. Well, when people ask me, so how many students do you have in the college of education? They normally think that, well, it's the 3,000 students that we have, the undergraduate and graduate students. But I always say we have 4,100 students in the College of Education. We have 3,000 undergrad and graduate students, but we also have 1,100 children, um pre-K through 12 in our lab school system. So, yes, we do have three academic departments: the School of Teaching and Learning, the Department of Special Ed, Department of Educational Administration and Foundations, plus we also have University High and Thomas Metcalf. Um, and we do have the centers that focus on student success, partnerships with schools, um, other offices within there. But the academic leadership responsibility of any dean really, not just a college of education, but any college in a university this size, which is a research university, um, the job is complex. So there's a lot of moving parts. Um, you know, we're working with stakeholders at all different kinds of stages in their career, um, different kinds of vantage points, different kinds of priorities, different kinds of work that they're focused on. Um but the way I see what really grounds what we do is that the lab school, and I say lab school because I see us as one system, you know, but the two lab schools is what I mean when I say lab school. Um I see that as the bread and butter of what we do in teacher education, because this is the place that people should be coming to to say, look at what ISU is doing. ISU really knows how to make decisions based on evidence, based on research, the collaboration between faculty, between faculty associates at the lab school, um, between the community members, everything that we're trying out and showing what works, what works best, what are some proven and promising practices? That's what our neighboring school districts within our community and across the nation and the world really should be looking at to say that's why we're gonna make a decision in our district because they've tried it out, they've proven it works at the lab school at ISU. So I really see that as what drives us at the core of how we work together. Um, you know, but we have so many stakeholders. We have faculty, faculty associates, staff, we have parents in the community, we have community members, we have partnering school districts that we work with all over Illinois. We have international partners who are working with us. I see our role as serving our community and serving our schools. So I think a job really of a college of education and a dean is to, you know, we're always mindful of are we recruiting students and are we retaining them? And I think those are really important things that we do. But I like to push it a little bit further because I really think that our goal is to keep people in the profession where they can grow, where they can thrive, where they can find other opportunities that keep them in the profession. You know, kind of like my journey. Um, you know, it wasn't a clear-cut journey. I can still proudly say that I'm in my 28th year as a public educator. Is it my 28th year as a classroom teacher? No, but I've had all these different opportunities in education to make a difference. And I see that as our role. So we have all these different ways that we can support educators along this journey, what I call the educator continuum. And there's this continuum that every educator is on. You know, it's uh at the time they're thinking about wanting to be an educator, that's the recruitment part. We prepare them to be an educator. They're in the field, they're practicing. But what about teacher leader opportunities? What about educational administration opportunities? How are we developing the faculty in the college? Those are all the things that I think about as a dean that I think the role of a dean is really important in uh in helping to facilitate.

Ben Webb 17:41

And we've talked frequently about like, so with our schools, we are a microcasm of education across the states. And yet we are also meant to be ahead of the curve so that we're preparing our college students that come and observe us, learn from us, hey, this is what you're gonna need to know for your career 20 years from now. So it's how are we advancing education at the same time as being a reflection of it?

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Yeah, and what I like to say is, you know, um, in a traditional school district, usually a school district would say, the State Department of Education is requiring that we do X, Y, and Z. What I like to think about with lab school is the lab school has informed the State Board of Education on why these practices matter that need to be replicated across the school districts.

Andy Goveia 18:38

So what have you noticed as you stepped into this role about our lab schools here? What have your observations been? What are you seeing? Um, not trying to pin you down on anything by any means, but you're six months into this, and I will say, just deeply comment for our listeners, you've been way more present than a lot of deans have in the past, um, in terms of people seeing you around. And so from that presence, you've intentionally chosen to be, what have you noticed? What are you seeing about our schools as you step into this role?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Well, throughout my whole career, uh even when I started out in the clinical experiences role, I was always in schools because I see school is our core business. And so I love being in the schools and I love being in the lab school, um, in the lab schools, both of them. And yes, I've met with so many stakeholders. I've met with parents, I've met with the district administrators, uh, you know, the the lab school district. Um, I've met with the principals, I meet with them on a regular basis. We meet uh every month as a team. Um, and I've met with teams of teachers at the lab school, the faculty associates. In fact, I've already met with nine. Teams, I believe. I visited all the different teams just to hear their feedback. So I'm really kind of assimilating some trends in that data, if you will. You know, these are somewhat anecdotal, but also somewhat empirical because they're qualitative data that are important to me. Um, I've noticed that the faculty associates are extremely committed to the what's in the best interest of the school and the school community. Um, I have seen the interconnectedness across the schools, which is quite interesting. This is a very good example. You're at Metcalf, Ben, you're at UHI, and you're working together on this podcast. Love that.

Andy Goveia 20:50

That's Ben and I missing being in too many meetings together.

Lab Schools As Evidence And Innovation Hubs

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Well, I love that you all are working together in this space. Um, I like that you're willing to try things out, that you're willing to think outside of the box. I also have noticed that um the community strongly values the Metcalf and university high traditions. Um I think that you have uh a lot of alumni who really value this community. Um and so you have a lot of assets. And I I like to look at leadership from an assets-oriented kind of mindset. You know, we all have some asset that we bring to any situation, and the lab schools are extremely um strong in those assets. Um I also think that you are doing things differently, and I like that you're thinking outside of the box. Um I would like to see more interconnectedness between what you're doing and what our faculty in the College of Education are doing. I really think that um, you know, on any given day, when we're walking through the hall here or walking into any classroom, it would be really great to see professors from the College of Ed in here. Um it would be great to see you all over in DeGarmo in our College of Ed classes, and I know that happens. Um, and I do know that there are faculty from the College of Ed who are in and out of the school as well. Um, so I think there's real potential and real opportunity for that, strengthened collaboration. Part of my background being a lab school leader is that, you know, I have this vision for what I think a lab school should be doing. And so I'm really trying to be more um vocal and much more present in that space, not just for you all to see me here, but also across the university. There isn't any meeting that I'm in across the university where I'm not talking about the lab schools. Um, and it's a reminder about why they're so important. I mean, the fact that this university opened in 1857 as a normal school, and the lab school opened on the same day, that is just really an important legacy. Uh, and I I see it, you know, obviously education has changed since 1857. And uh I'm glad to see that school doesn't look the same as it did in 1857 when I walk through these halls. I think it's great that, you know, we're evolving with the times and and kind of informing what's happening. So, yeah, so those are the things that I've seen and that I've noticed. Um I also uh I think that um I I see, you know, the the faculty associates who I've met with, they have made a choice. And this is not a place where they said, you know, I think I'll just kind of settle and teach in Metcalf or UHI. This is a school of choice for faculty associates in particular. I do know that it's a school of choice in the community for students as well. I would love to see um accessibility uh and building that capacity and accessibility in the greater community. Um, and I know that there's some barriers in place that don't always allow for that, but I always think about wow, the children at the lab schools are getting an amazing education. Who is not in the lab schools who should be? And that is something that's always on my mind.

Andy Goveia 25:07

There's about 400 to 600 applications from the community that would raise their hand and say they're not here. Ben so sorry, you started to speak and I know what I always do.

Ben Webb 25:16

I'm glad you did that because I he took both of my uh follow-up questions. One was So you've talked about what you've seen. So what is it that you haven't seen yet that you're looking for? And you kind of talked about that in terms of like making sure that there is not only interconnectivity between both buildings, but between professors and then classrooms over here. Is there anything other? Are there other components that you're still it's on your radar and you're looking for?

What Brian Sees On The Ground

SPEAKER_01 25:44

Yeah, you know, um, Andy, you mentioned that I had brought that team from Virginia here. I would love to see more teams coming through to study and learn what's happening here. And you know what happens in I come from a an instructional coaching background. And the beauty of an instructional coaching relationship is that the coach and who is being coached, they both benefit. You know, you learn from one another in that experience. Even though the coach might be more educative because they have more experience and they have more to offer. Really, if you're open-minded enough and you're coachable yourselves, you will have a lot to learn too from that beautiful relationship that exists. So I would love to see more teams coming here, more collaboration, because what will happen is it will open up um, you know, more ideas and possibilities when we are um interacting with people outside of the lab schools, not just in Illinois, but from across the world. You're a member of the International Association of Laboratory Schools. Shout out to IELTS. Yes. And we have representation at IELTS and the IELTS conference coming up. There will be some presentations at that conference, which is great. I would love to see people from across the globe come to Illinois State University to say, you know, we really want to talk with and meet with and learn from ISU lab schools, and in turn, the ISU lab schools learn as well. And that's what I would like to see more of.

Ben Webb 27:26

I like that. Well, and once we once we then go and go on tour and go visit other places, we can do a live pod from our visits. A live pod. But also, too, like we're we're also advocating for our our schools in Springfield, too. So it's yeah.

Andy Goveia 27:42

So I you said so like I we could do this conversation, I think, for hours because you said so you said so many cool things that could be teased out, but I I want to hit because we have a limited time, I want to hit one little piece of what you kind of talked about that like there are barriers that exist for both we have unique barriers building to building, but like as you said, as our system, we have barriers.

Ben Webb 28:08

So like accessibility, I think, was the word you used.

Andy Goveia 28:11

I think there are more barriers than that, right? I think you've kind of you your words have said that there are barriers that exist. You see accessibility as a big one. I want to tease that out just a little bit as I look at my questions and try to pull some pieces together. What what is a barrier as you came into this job with us as lab schools, you didn't necessarily expect to exist. And I could also flip that something that's but a joyful surprise that you didn't expect but was here. You can answer that however you want.

Raising Accessibility And Community Reach

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Well, you know, gosh, when you've been in education for 28 years, there's really nothing that surprises you. Um so I can't say that there was one thing that I, you know, walked away from at, you know, during my first few months saying, wow, I did not expect that. Um I, you know, was um, I guess it was more confirmation bias that I already knew the lab schools were amazing and how people felt about them. Um I also see the evidence in that. I mean, you know, I have heard a lot of people at ISU who are faculty, staff, administrators who have or have had their children in the lab schools. That was surprising um to me because um there are lab schools across the country that, you know, that relationship is not as strong. Um, you know, I think that um, yeah, I haven't really been surprised. Um I have been pleasantly affirmed that the lab schools are doing great work. Um I do, you know, I do think about things like um children who aren't able to afford to buy lunch. Um, those are things that I think about. How can we break down some of those barriers? I think about transportation. How can we bring students here who can't get here or it may take over an hour to get here? And over an hour within like a, you know, it's like a 10-minute drive to anywhere in this town, but because of the system in place, uh yeah. I also think, too, that um, you know, there's been a lot of transitions with the lab schools themselves and within um the university and the college of education. And what I really hope to bring is some sense of stability where we can really just kind of plant our feet and really grow in this space. And um, I'm just excited that I um have and uh, you know, I it they're always on my mind never to forget about. Um I think that there's some perceptions out there that, you know, the the lab schools are a part of the university or they're not a part of the university. The ugly stepchild. But you really are. You are a part of the university and a very important part of the university. And so how do we elevate that story so that everybody sees the value that you bring to the university and the community?

Ben Webb 31:46

It sounds like there's a percentage of your day that is just completely lab school brain oriented.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

So yeah, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not doing something related to the lab schools. Um, and I love that. You know, I really do enjoy that. It also helps that, you know, my parking spot is just right outside Thomas Metcalf. So I enjoy seeing how parents are bringing their kids to school and they're picking them up from school. Um, we could probably widen the road over there. There's a lot of people who have a lot of ideas on how to fix that traffic dam. But that's not something that I that's not within my purview. Um, but you know, it's my experience working in schools, usually parent pickup traffic is always uh quite congested.

Ben Webb 32:36

So what would you say is a challenge? And it's you could look at this for our own system, but you could also broaden this to all of the education system because school is not easy. Uh, education is often uh discussed in either in a positive or negative light. So, what do you see as the challenge or challenges uh facing our lab schools, education in general going into the future? You can project that five years, ten years, your pick.

Learning With And From External Teams

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Well, I will just kind of start with when I was in North Carolina and I was on the lab school development team. You know, the the legislature in North Carolina said, Colleges of education, since you really know what you're doing, you're gonna open nine laboratory schools in North Carolina. And here is the criteria. They must have children who come from low-performing schools, or they must come from a non-low performing school and have a low-performing individual score themselves, because we did a lot of those kinds of things in North Carolina. Um, so that mindset was very much like we're not going to create a laboratory school just for professors' children. Um, I think there's uh there's a an urban legend out there that lab schools are not as relevant as they used to be because of the perception that it's really just a place for professors' kids to go to school. Um, so that is something that I encountered when I led the development and opening of our lab school in Virginia, is we really wanted to make sure that this was not perceived as an elitist kind of place, um, that it really could reflect the community that um, you know, uh it was serving. So I do think that is something that, you know, um we have to pay attention to in this space because at the end of the day, taxpayers are providing the resources for the lab schools. Um and we are all taxpayers. So we all have a voice, we all have a stake in this game. So, what are we doing to make sure that we're staying relevant and that we're educating people on the value of why lab schools are really important and that we're not just perceived as what people think lab schools are, because lab schools that were around in the 1800s and at JMU, where I came from, they actually had a lab school a long time ago. And they called it a lab school, but in my um kind of unpacking of what that was, it probably really wasn't a lab school, but they closed maybe in the 1950s. And you hear about lab schools that don't make it for the long game, and it's really because of you know the hurdles they're up against and and um people understanding the the relevance behind them. So I think that's something we have to pay attention to is why we are important, what value does it add to our profession in general? And um, that's what I'm willing to help advocate for in my role.

Andy Goveia 36:16

So we're almost out of time. And when it's your first time on the pod, we have a lightning round for you. Okay. Ready? Yes. Who is the person that most led you into education?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Mrs. Perrier, my second grade teacher.

Andy Goveia 36:28

What is your go-to caffeine to get through the workday, school day?

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Coffee.

Andy Goveia 36:34

Favorite subject when you were a student.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Oh, that was hard. Um gosh. I would say probably math.

Andy Goveia 36:45

Okay. Both of us are okay. The humanities here are like great. Uh what what are you either reading, watching, or listening to right now? Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Well, that is well, okay, so what I'm reading right now is um a series of books that were written by um one of our alumni, Dr. Joyce Gilly Gossum. Cool. Uh, and it's on leadership, and it's actually the connection between how being a classroom teacher is very much transferable to the leadership space. And I just love what she writes about. So I just finished one of her books and I'm on um some of her two prior books in that series. Um, what I am watching usually is the news. Um, and uh I am always paying attention to current events that are happening around the world and within our country. And what was the other question? Listening. Are you listening to anything? Listening to. Um, I am usually always listening to Taylor Swift.

Barriers, Perceptions, And Staying Relevant

Ben Webb 37:58

I I I'm not gonna put words in your mouth. I would just want to throw out having you accessible and having you in our schools is I cannot put a value to it. It's been wonderful both to have those meetings, but also to just if there is something that comes up, you're there. You're in our buildings, you understand us, and you include us. I think the inclusive like just the fact that we would joke as like, oh well, how many kids do you have? And that refers to our classrooms. Um, the fact that you include our kids in your account at the college as also are your faculty associates as a part of your call uh of the college that you lead. It is I l I both love that leadership style and I am so appreciative of it.

Andy Goveia 38:44

Thank you. And then finally, what is your favorite thing about being a part of the lab schools?

Ben Webb 38:50

You like how I buttered them up before the last one?

SPEAKER_01 38:54

My favorite thing is being on this podcast. Oh this is really cool. I really love this, and I would love to come back. Um, you you've got like at least a four-part biopic.

Andy Goveia 39:06

We could do a whole we could do a whole arc of a season.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

I have a story about Mrs. Perrier, too. I'd love to share it on another podcast about uh my favorite teacher um who inspired me to be an educator.

Andy Goveia 39:19

I think we need to get the the the district leadership group in here for an interview together.

Ben Webb 39:24

I can do five mics, and then after that, it's absolute haywire.

Andy Goveia 39:28

Oh, that would be really fun. That would be a cool conversation. So uh Mr. Webb, we've been here. Dr. Zoogelder, thank you for your time today.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Thank you. And please, for those listening, call me Brian.

Andy Goveia 39:41

Thank you, Brian. Uh this has been Live in the Lab Schools.