Crystal Gail Fraser and Sara Komarnisky

What exactly is a treaty? Why do treaties matter today? And what responsibilities come with living on treaty land?

In this episode of U of A Reads: Stories Behind the Stories, we sit down with Dr. Crystal Gail Fraser, '08 BA, '19 PhD, and Dr. Sara Komarnisky, '03 BCom, to discuss their book, Talk Treaty to Me: Understanding the Basics of Treaties and Land in Canada.

In our conversation, Crystal and Sara share the story behind the book and discuss why treaty education is so important. We explore how treaties have shaped Canada and why they should be understood as living relationships rather than historical documents.  We also look at the process of translating complex histories and scholarship into a book intended for a broad audience. At its heart, Talk Treaty to Me is an invitation to learn, ask questions and participate in ongoing conversations about treaty relationships and reconciliation.

To learn more about Crystal and Sara's project, 150 Acts of Reconciliation, click here.

This podcast is brought to you by the University of Alberta Alumni Association.  

Follow @UAlbertaAlumni on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Hello, I'm the host of U of A Reads Adiatic Forest. Today, we're talking treaties. Treaties are foundational to this country and continue to shape the land we live on, the rights and responsibilities we carry, and the relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples. But for many Canadians, understanding what treaties actually are, how they came to be, and what they mean today can feel complicated. That's where Talk Treaties to Me, understanding the basics of treaties and land in Canada, comes in. In this episode, I'm joined by the book's authors, Dr. Crystal Gale Fraser and Dr. Sarah Komornitsky for a conversation about the history and continuing significance of treaties in Canada. We talk about the inspiration behind the book, what the authors hope readers will understand about treaty relationships, and why treaty education matters to all of us. Let's dive in. Crystal and Sarah, welcome to U of A Reads.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

So why don't we start with uh what brought you to this point in your careers? Um, Crystal, you're a historian and Sarah an anthropologist. What was the driving force behind a career in academia? And Sarah, why don't we start with you?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Yeah, and and to be fair, I don't I don't know that I could say I have a career in academia. I um I studied uh anthropology for grad school. I got a PhD from the University of British Columbia. And at that time I was working um in Mexico and Alaska. So I was tracing uh multi-generational family stories, uh, people from one town in Mexico who now live and work in Alaska. Um and I I don't think I went into um grad school with a good sense of what I wanted to do afterwards. I had the idea that, you know, if a job in the academy presented itself to me, that would be nice. But I knew too that there were, you know, lots of other things to do in the world. And what ended up happening was after um I finished um my PhD, I moved back to Edmonton, always end up back in Edmonton, um, and started uh started working in public health, um, just a just a part-time research job in public health. And I learned a lot there about um the history of tuberculosis. I was that was a research lab in tuberculosis, uh, tuberculosis like history, but also like it was in the in the medicine. So it was uh led by an MV who treated people with TB. And today and in the past, um indigenous peoples have been really disproportionately affected by that disease. And so it set me on a path of of learning. And this was also the same time as the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada was holding events across the country. Um, they held one in Vancouver while I was a grad student, and um actually we had no classes that day so that everyone could be there to to witness um uh uh the gathering. Um and when I moved back to Edmonton, I think it was 2012, that was the year of the um the gathering, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission gathering in Edmonton. And that too, also like I don't know, if if we go back to that time, there was real energy around the potential for reconciliation, and it really um like affected me as a as a person, as a scholar. Um, and I wanted to learn more. So I did. It it sent me to uh do a postdoc on a completely different topic topic from my PhD. Um, and from there I uh I was I was offered work here in the Northwest Territories that brought together a lot of things for me. I had, you know, for many years been um been working in the north, like with the connection to Alaska, and then um with activism and and scholarship about um reconciliation and the colonial history of our country, it seemed like a really good decision to move to Yellowknife to the Northwest Territories to start work again for a health research field. And I think all of these things, I mean, two things. One, anthropology, uh, the the way that I was trained, I was trained as an ethnographer. So you're really focused on the everyday life with folks. And then second, the job opportunities that I've had and the kind of, I guess, community-driven frame to the work that I do. Really, um, I really feel the importance of making sure work is involved the public, involves community, is understandable by the community, like speaks to everyday people. Um, and I think where I'm at now, that's that's a really important part of all my work. I I love to do community engagement. I I love to um communicate complex ideas in in ways that you know engage everyday folks. And you know, in terms of what my career is, I don't know that I could say necessarily. I do a lot of different things, um, including including writing, but um, but yeah, I guess I guess that's the story that brings me to here more or less.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

That's great. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um so Crystal, I would love to turn then to you as a historian. Now what was the driving force behind a career in academia? What what brought you to this point in your careers, and especially as sort of a kicking off point um for writing this book?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Well, I think maybe like some people, I did not start my education thinking I would have a career in academia that was not on the radar whatsoever. Um, you know, I I dropped out of high school when I was in grade 10. Um, and and I did not return for a number of years. And so when I was in a position to start thinking about university applications, I was a little bit older and I was um living in the north and thinking about the kind of professionals that maybe needed to uh help my own people, um, the Gwichin who who live in the Northwest Territories. Uh and at that time, you know, it had been about a decade since we had signed our modern treaty. Um, there were new kinds of questions that were being asked around resource development, uh around sovereignty, although that word sovereignty wasn't necessarily being used. Um, and I thought that a contribution that I could possibly make would be in the legal field. Um, so I started my undergrad uh thinking that I would end up going to law school. Um, you know, I also come from a family of residential school survivors. My grandmother and mother were institutionalized, and uh and I share that because stories about education are not always positive or straightforward. There had been one person in my family who uh was able to successfully go to university and get a degree in biology, um, but you know, long-lost relative sort of thing. And and so having said that, I had zero kind of mentorship or um thinking about university when I started. Um very quickly I realized that law school was not in my future. I think I started one law class and and I did make it through that law class, and I was like, yeah, no. Hard problem. At the same time, I found my history courses very um very inspiring and and in particular, and this is where mentorship played such an important role, is finding history professors who who were excited about their discipline, who were asking the questions that I needed to hear at the time and were pushing me in particular ways. Um so I got my BA actually in European history with a minor in religious studies in the history of Christianity from the U of A, um, which set me up so perfectly to understand colonialism. Um you know, to beat the enemy, you need to understand the enemy. Um, not that they're enemies, but you know, figure of speech. Um and then I went off to Victoria to start a master's in in Canadian history, where again, I just had such wonderful mentors, Wendy Wickwire, Elizabeth Fibert. Um, and and making that move to Victoria really set me up uh in critical thinking in in ways that I had never imagined before. But even with a master's under my belt, I was not convinced that academia was for me. I very hesitantly started a PhD. Um, I knew there was definitely a need in the discipline of history for more Indigenous scholars. Uh, that remains today. Um, and I also knew that if I wanted any sort of success, any chance of making a contribution to my nation and to the north, that a PhD would help me do that better. Um, so that was how how I started. Um, you know, my PhD took longer than some people, uh, nine years. Um I had a child during that time. I also did like more than 75 interviews with survivors and and other northerners in order to better understand the history of residential schools and also learn how to live and be happy thinking about trauma and genocide, um, learn how to write about it in a way that was supportive to my own life. Um so, I mean, having done all that, even with a PhD, I was still entertaining um the possibility of working in in the private sector of um, you know, consulting and um, and to be honest, all of those things are still appealing to me. Um, my my primary audience and uh the people who I work for is is still the North and the people of my own nation. Um and and so in a way, I will carry on the kind of work that I do, whether it's in academic spaces or not.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yeah, that's really interesting. Um, it's funny uh hearing you say that I'm still not sure if academia is the place. Um, but you know, that's fascinating. Both of your stories are so interesting. Uh just moving on to talk treaty to me, which we're gonna discuss today. Um what inspired you to write that as a team? I'm so fascinated by um how people write together. Um, you know, uh what and uh what was it about this topic that you felt like this book was needed now? And uh Crystal, why don't I just carry on with you on that one?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Sure. So uh, you know, as Sarah mentioned, uh, you know, more than 10 years ago, the 94 calls to action were published. Um and since that time, we've seen varying levels of engagement from Canadian government and society more broadly. Um one of the lowest points of engagement, I think, that we saw was around Canada 150, um, when it was Canada's 150th birthday. And, you know, at the time, um, Sarah was undertaking her postdoc at the U of A and I was finishing up the PhD. And um, that's when we brainstormed and collaborated on 150 acts of reconciliation. Um, that list was designed to reach everyday people, just like me and Sarah, because the 94 calls were and continue to be written in such a way that maybe resonate best with government, churches, large organizations. And so we were thinking through how just normal people in our everyday life can be a part of this conversation. Um and so coming up with 150 acts, which listeners can still find at activehistory.ca, um was was an incredible way to think about how we can reach more more people. Um and that list has been taken up so widely over the last you know nine years. It has won awards, it has been used in, you know, curriculum, um, people have reprinted the list, they have added to the list. Uh, so we've been super fortunate to still engage in these conversations around 150 acts. But um, you know, act number one, which is learn the land acknowledgement in your area, was was always important to be number one. We knew that in any kind of decolonial process that this starts with questions about land. Um so that was front and center for us. And we had always kind of imagined that 150 acts would would take the form of a different project in the future, maybe a book project, we weren't sure. Um, but you know, it it wasn't until a few years ago when actually we were approached by a literary agent um inquiring about the list about 150 acts and and inviting us to possibly write a book on treaties. Um so Sarah and I had had already been collaborators by the time Talk Treaty to me came along. Um, but this invitation really allowed us to grow and expand our thinking on act number one. And maybe I'll hand it over to Sarah to tell the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yeah, thanks, Crystal. I I don't think, I don't know, I I can't speak for you, Crystal, but for myself, I kind of couldn't have imagined that that this would be the project that would come out of 150 acts in a lot of ways. Like it it's um it's it makes sense from where I sit now, but you know, when we when we wrote 150 acts of reconciliation, we were both basically students and trainees, and we were responding to Canada 150 and the lack of action um to on the 94 calls to action um from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And having the invitation to potentially write a book on treaties, I think we took a minute to sort of sit back and think about what that would look like. You know, if we were gonna write this book, um how how would we like to write it? And, you know, do we think that we could do it for lack of a better word? So we we did collaborate together on a on an outline, and I think I think too like it it just showed or I felt that we had grown a lot in our knowledges over the intervening nine years as well. And so when we put together the outline, I realized that wow, like actually we do this is a really nice like arc to a book. Um, I don't know of anything like this out there who kind of you know looked around to see if there was anything um, you know, publicly available, uh um written for a general audience about treaties, and I couldn't find a lot. That said, there is there are vast amounts of of written work um and and also like just knowledge held by individuals out there um about treaties and land. And so the beautiful thing is that we could we could draw on a lot of different resources to be able to put together um to put together a book like this, and and really wouldn't have been possible without all of the work done by you know experts and and knowledge holders and community members to again and again, you know, tell uh tell the stories of treaty, to share analysis, to, you know, um make sure that indigenous concepts of of treaties and treaty making were were available and out there for for us to draw in in writing this book. And I think um, you know, treaties are have have been important since um since forever. Um and you know, they they do ground our presence on these lands, but certainly um we see we we feel their real importance these days as we as we see things like Alberta separatism, um massive investments in the Canadian North in for Arctic sovereignty, um, you know, things like that that really um mean that the general public needs to be aware of you know whose land, what agreements, what responsibilities, um, and all of that as as we move forward to a better understanding of things together, hold our governments, um hold our governments to to shape these relationships appropriately. Yeah. I don't know. Crystal, why do you think this book is needed right now? It it really lands at a uh an important time.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, well, all of the things that Sarah mentioned um are critically important, you know, anniversaries of treaty six and the Indian Act separation. There's also questions um about UNDRIP and even water rights, um, which can all be answered through the lens of treaty. But additionally, you know, there are ongoing stereotypes about indigenous peoples in in Canada. And so a part of the book, um, just like 150 acts, was trying to educate broader Canadians, whether that be those who have lived here for generations, who just arrived, who are newcomers or immigrants, but also Indigenous peoples themselves, because um, and I see this especially in the history of residential schools, that like just because our people went through this, it doesn't mean that that we know about it. I mean, in many cases, um, especially with with young people, they are in the school system that that everyone else is, right? And and so it's not like we get a dedicated special education about um about our histories. And so stereotypes are are a part of the book. I mean, one stereotype would be that treaties are a Canadian invention when we know that they've been around on these lands for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Um, you know, other stereotypes um relatedly would include that the treaties are like an indigenous issue, like they are only relevant to indigenous peoples when when we absolutely know that like that's not the case through treaty partnerships. I mean, that's that's what a treaty is, is like um a relationship agreement, right? And and so thinking through the responsibility of of both parties is is really important. Um yeah, so stereotypes are are a part of the ongoing question of of why the work is so needed.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

I really loved how you how you started the book about you know discussing treaties in an indigenous context before settlers arrived on the land. I thought that was a really interesting uh reminder of uh you know how complex um indigenous uh societies were, are, remain. Um, and something that's so important because history didn't just start when white people came here. So remembering that there were all these uh connections before was was a really interesting and and clarifying way to start.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah, yeah, and as you'll as you'll see in the book, like that grounding. I mean, I can having worked on this book and and done all the reading and and research. And you know, Crystal and I talking about it. I see peoples, indigenous peoples from this continent as coming to treaty well-knowledgeable about diplomacy, about making agreements, about what they mean and how to keep them living, right? And that's so important and so powerful for people to know and to and to bring into the present, right? Um the whole concept of seed and surrender is is like a like a fiction when you look at it that way, right? Um so that's a really important um intervention that this book makes. And and so that was, you know, that was an intentional choice to start there and make sure that that we showed that um to our readers.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

So I'd love to just come back for a moment to uh the writing process for the book. So collaborative writing, such an interesting way to come together on a book. What was your process? Did you divide topics? Are you taking a chapter each, or are you literally writing together throughout the book? Uh and Sarah, why don't you continue?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Sure. Yeah. We um, you know, we were also living in in different cities as we were writing. So I I live in in Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories, and Crystal lives in in Alberta. And um, so we were writing at a distance and and we also weren't necessarily writing at the same time. We are busy people, as Crystal said. She, you know, she's a parent, um, and she became a parent again during the writing of this book. I hope that's okay to share, but you know, we were we were busy. So what we did do was we basically divided up our outline that we created, and we each took the lead on a chapter. Um, we had uh uh an optimistic schedule that often we didn't necessarily meet our own deadlines, which is okay too, but we had it there and and we basically um you know divided it up. We started with the the chapters that we were interested in learning more about and kind of digging into. Um and we were able to meet up um both on Zoom and in person for some writing retreats to workshop things in person. I found especially like when we when we were able to get together in person, we would we would have like a like a rental accommodations and we would sit in the same room for a couple of days working on different chapters, but having the opportunity to talk through different pieces of them, what we were thinking about, what we were working on, and and you know, get our heads together around some of those things. After that, though, um, you know, we we passed our drafts back and forth multiple times. Like every chapter that I wrote then went to Crystal for her to contribute to, and then back to me again, and and then most likely to our um to our team at HarperCollins to work with. And it's a really interesting writing process, and I I I love the end result because I can I can hear Crystal in there, and I can hear myself in there, and I can hear like a shared voice that's like both of us sort of thing. And um and I think we also were both committed to like having that approachable voice, that invitation to folks to join us in this learning, right? We knew we weren't treaty experts. We um, you know, we didn't we didn't study um treaties uh like for our scholarly works. Um you know, we're interested, we're curious, we we we did the work to read what we could, but um we knew we wanted to have that, you know, very approachable and um very I forget what I'm looking for, but it's just a very approachable kind of way of writing, um, you know, to to invite people into the conversation, for lack of a better word.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

And Crystal, what were your feelings? How did you enjoy the collaborative writing process?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, Sarah and I had already worked together for a number of years. So in that way, um, you know, we we already kind of had a working relationship set out, uh, which I think was very helpful. I could not imagine writing a book, uh, you know, because it is a very big commitment. You are constantly in touch over various stages of the book. It it was a multi-year commitment. Um, but having said that, we we worked with each other in ways that we could see progress in the writing, but also honored like the really other important aspects of our life. Um, so whether uh one of us was was in the document, you know, at three in the morning or during regular working hours, um the ability to work in live documents like Google Docs and leave comments, I mean that um we would have had to have rethought the whole strategy, I think, if that was not available. Um, but additionally, assigning certain sections um where one of us would be kind of like the first dedicated thinker on this topic. Um, for example, you know, I did a deep dive into the J Treaty and Sarah was like thinking about the doctrine of discovery. Um I actually think that that if we did that in a way that was um together in conversation, that it would have taken much longer. Um, but we already kind of had this relationship of trust where we were able to hand that off. And then reading each other's drafts, uh leaving, you know, positive critical feedback in order to advance and push the writing. And then when we got closer to the actual uh submission of similar to what you would read today, going through it and identifying places where um where maybe our voices weren't as unified as we would have liked, and then making those revisions appropriately.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah, that's that's a really good point. It's um, you know, Crystal's somebody whose work I really respect and um who I who I know very well. And so, you know, I'm uh I think both of us were totally good with, you know, you run with it and then come back and share what you've learned, and then we'll we'll talk it through or or like ask questions. And I I think it is, you know, working on this kind of project, having somebody that you can give critique to and you know it will be taken well. Um, like that's that's really important too. And I'm I'm grateful to have that kind of um writing relationship with Crystal.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Yeah, you're I mean, you're describing a real relationship there um where there has to be so much trust um and understanding of each other's strengths and the ability, I think one of the hardest things just in general to take criticism um in a thoughtful way. I mean, your drive to uh make this accessible, approachable, um, I think is what makes it so popular as well. You know, this book is a national bestseller. That's incredible. Um how important was it to you while you were writing this book that you were reaching a wide Canadian audience? Um, you know, was that what you had in mind the whole time while you were writing it? Was that like that's our primary audience? We want to reach people who are beginners on the topic of treaties.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

That definitely was always the intention was to reach a wide audience. And that's one of the reasons why it was important to work with a publisher like HarperCollins, who could have that kind of reach in a trade paperback form. Um, so we definitely envisioned this as a resource that would travel the country, that could be picked up by anybody, and that it could be affordable. Um so that was an important component. And, you know, over a number of years, um not only as an academic who teaches undergraduate students in the classroom, ranging from ages 17 to 75, but also as a public scholar who does a ton of media engagements and public outreach. Um I a number of times had overestimated the state of education around these issues. Um and so repeatedly over the years, and and this even happens today, that that I'm reminded that we need to take a step back and we need to cover the basics in so many different ways. Um and so it was writing in a format that was non-technical, did not include jargon. Uh, I mean, we've we talk about indigenous scholars here, yet we do not talk about historiography or scholarly literature in any kind of a scholarly way. Um and so accessibility format was important in reaching this wide audience. And and I mean, even how we start the introduction, um, which it says, Agwinzi, welcome. It's good to see you. In this book, we invite you to talk treaty with us. Maybe grab a cup of tea and sit around the kitchen table with an open mind. We'll tell you what we've learned about what treaties are, how they were made, what meaning they hold today, and how we can talk treaty together. And so this is another another important kind of um approach is is that people have feelings about truth and reconciliation, about colonization and genocide. Those feelings are um are valid, but additionally, one of the feelings that has come up is is this feeling of being threatened um by these conversations. And and so we tried to write it in a way that is an invitation, that that is non-threatening, that like this is a shared space that we can hold together and we can do this in a way that will hopefully feel good more generally.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

No, I think it's a very welcoming book. You know, be you're you do feel like you're invited in, um, as opposed to being scolded or told. So no, I I can definitely see that um very much thoughtfulness throughout the book. Um, Sarah, was there anything you wanted to add on that? On you know, which audience you wanted to really reach with this book.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, I was I was gonna say that at the same time we we wrote for a general audience and and with this invitation really to join us in in thinking about these things, um, we wanted to make sure it held up to you know to scholarly knowledge and that it was rigorous in its research. And we treated it like a, you know, like a like a research project, like how we would approach review of literature and in in other in other topics, right? We also made sure to um to share the work with experts in the field, um, to make sure that we'd we'd gotten it right at a basic level, right? So we needed to make sure that um that that we did that as well. Um it also meant that we we had we have footnotes, right? So um readers can also follow along and and you know look up some of those scholarly resources if they so choose. Um, but it you know, the fact is that we also had to take out a task, like we couldn't include all of the resources that all the references that were um that were used to write this book. And so in some ways there's a real balance there. Um and and some trade-offs made for sure in terms of um what you're able to include and and what level of detail you're able to go into. Um, so the fact is that having this as a general introduction, you know, sort of tracing the big picture story means that we're not able to dive deep into some of the complexity of the topic, right? And as we say in the book, you know, every treaty has so much uh more to learn about it, um, so many resources that are available, people who carry that knowledge, places that were important, um, and so on. And so, yeah, in some ways, um, I feel like it means we we barely scratch the surface, but that said, it is an invitation to learn more to pretty much everyone.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Was there a particular misconception, something in particular that about treaties that you hoped to address through the book? Was there some sort of driving factor that um you know you really wanted to get across in a in a clear way? Um Sarah, we can just carry on with you.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, I mean, I think when we started working on this project, we thought about like, okay, like what would you wish that everyone like could know more about it would it when we're talking about treaties and land? And and like the arc of the book came later. Like, you know, for for writers, sometimes you don't you don't see the full project until really the very end and and um the work that it's able to do, and that certainly happened in this case. So from I can't say necessarily that we had such a clear sense aside from definitely wanting to foreground indigenous knowledge around treaties and agreements, that was one that we wanted to make sure um we wanted to make sure to start the book with and to um correct that um the misinformation in in the general public about um about that. But from where I sit now, there's quite a few assumptions that are corrected by this work. Um one is that treaty making is a Canadian invention, it is not, right? Like we talked about, um treaties and agreements have been made for thousands of years on these lands. Another is that treaties are just an indigenous thing, um they are not. Um they involve all of us. In fact, you know, tracing those links to through my own family history and really understanding more about the doctrine of discovery and the Royal Proclamation and how these international laws um made it possible for immigrants to come to these lands. Like that, um I had known that, but I hadn't encountered it in quite this way. And so what that means is that everyone on these lands is is here because of trees. Um, and everyone on these lands is therefore has responsibilities to uphold um for for those treaties. Um another one that we write about in the book is um you know who was present at treaty making. And I think there's a we have a whole chapter called gendering and clearing treaties, and that one sort of came about because you know, a lot of the writing about treaties, it's it's about men, you know, adult men. But where is community in that, right? We know that there would have been community members there, and so again, that's another assumption about who's involved and who it's for that this book tries to push against, right? Like um, people, indigenous peoples were working to assure um mutual benefit out of these agreements and like a long life for peoples, cultures, and communities that they would continue their way of life forevermore. And that involves that involves ever everyone, right? That involves everyone as well. Yeah. Crystal, what what were you writing? What were what which stereotypes did you really want to push against?

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Well, I think I already mentioned a few, and so did you, Sarah. Um, I mean, in particular, I suppose I really had had quite the time um writing the early writing of chapter eight, interrupting movement and mobility. And and I've I think I've already referenced the Jay Treaty, but understanding um like cross-border movement and um, I mean, if we really respect the sovereignty of of Indigenous nations, like we've been international people for for a very long time, right? And um, and so better understanding how how Canada has basically dishonored that Jay Treaty of 1794, how the United States does implement parts that they pick and choose today, but of course, it is all premised on this very harmful blood quantum system of colonization. Um, but also in that chapter, we look at the creation of reserves. Um, we look at the high Arctic forced relocations. Um, and and in particular, you know, I think the high Arctic forced relocations and and the forced relocations were not only in the Arctic, they even happened in in northern Alberta and and in other places. Um this is recent. This is not something that is historic. Um, this is something where there are still elders and knowledge keepers who can share these stories with people. And and so that was another kind of thing that was important to educate is that many of these violations were not that long ago, and they are actually still going on today. Um, now we've seen some of them come up in the news. We also know that the modern treaty process um is is mostly in place to address historic injustices, but also uh quote unquote settle outstanding land claims. Um and and I haven't dug up the number recently, but um last time I checked, you know, Canada still had about like close to 700 outstanding land claims that they were either um negotiating or or actively ignoring or rejecting. Um and and we don't have to look far across the country to see those conversations that are happening today. Um, treaty, once once you adopt a treat adopt a treaty lens when looking at the news, when thinking about your relationship with the land, the land that you live on, it's it's hard not to see treaty everywhere. Um so that was another lesson of the book that we hoped folks would take away.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Did researching and writing this book, did it change your relationship to the land, to treaties, the way you felt about it? Was that something that really altered during this multi-year process? Crystal, why don't I start with you?

SPEAKER_00 43:58

I don't know if it necessarily changed my relationship with the land. I mean, it definitely gave me pause to think through things that I may have previously taken for granted. Um you know, in other spaces I've shared that that I did not grow up with an understanding of treaty. Um, you know, I'm Guichia Gwichin raised on on Treaty 11 lands. Treaty 11 was signed in 1921. Um, and then and then I was a teenager throughout our modern treaty land claim process. Um but At home, back home, treaties were not the primary lens through which we understood the world. And I say treaties specifically because we didn't use that word. We talked about relationships in different ways. I also come from a region where it is majority indigenous, Gwichin and Inuvalu it. But moving to Treaty Six territories, you know, more than 20 years ago was when I first started to understand and to think about the concept of treaty, this relationship between Treaty Six First Nations and the Crown and what that means. Now, 20 years ago, people were not talking about treaty in the same way they are today. So although I heard those words, I did not necessarily understand them. I could just identify that, oh, they use treaty here to talk about their relationship to the land and to each other, whereas back home we use different language. So over the past 20 years, I've I've had the pleasure of thinking about how the importance of treaty six guides my relationship as an Indigenous person here who is not from these lands. But additionally, it has forced me to rethink my own nation's modern treaty and the certain historical conditions that were at play that necessitated that as a result of the failure of Treaty 11. The other thing that that is ongoing is that even after working on treaty for a number of years now and writing this little book with Sarah, is that treaty education never stops, is that we have a responsibility to keep learning about it. And I suppose this might be another example of of why this is not just a scholarly or an academic project, is that I think going forward into other kinds of work that we take on, but also our own thinking and even as it relates to our families, it will it will be guided by treaties for the rest of our lives, that it's not just a project that is now done that we're gonna set aside and carry on with the next one.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Stays with you.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Yeah, yeah, that resonates with me. I mean, I'm I'm not indigenous. My ancestors were settlers to treaty six territory. I don't know about how they would have seen their relationship, if any, to treaty. Like I don't I knowing uh that my ancestors wouldn't have spoken English, um, and that you know, nobody like nobody's been well educated on treaties in terms of like settlers and newcomers coming to this country at any time in our history, I don't think. So I wouldn't have expected they would know, but I do know that they they did build relationships with local peoples. I've I've heard stories about you know Cree peoples and Metis peoples and Ukrainian peoples um and the kinds of relationships that they made, um, and also how those relationships were stretched, broken, and um, and and sometimes destroyed over the years of like private properties and land ownership and and racism um took hold among my people um against uh indigenous peoples. And I think um, you know, Crystal and I and I mean we've been we'd been working on um this this 150 acts of reconciliation project and and learning about colonialism, but I had never um you know looked at history through the lens of treaty and and like Crystal said I think that really changed that has really changed how I experience the world and how I I hear news stories and you know what I'm curious about and and how what I'd like to see, right, in in the future. Um and so I I think it has really changed my own relationships in in quite a few ways. It's been really heartening to see like friends and family members and community members pick up this book and and want to be in conversation about it. Um and that's you know also something that I haven't I haven't seen before. Um so yeah, yeah, it's I think Crystal's right. This is probably something that's um that's you know life-changing for us and and potentially for others that we've invited into a conversation as well.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

It's interesting that you speak about, you know, you just your experience, like I'm my ancestors are also Ukrainian, and it's just it feels like that's never a conversation that I've ever heard from from my grandparents, great-grandparents. Just I know there must have been, you know, some communication, some um relationships, but it's just it feels like a black hole there. So it is having reading this book and and just stopping to really think through in the context of my own history um has been really interesting for me as well. So it does really make you stop and reflect in that way. So just like your 150 acts, this book concludes with with practical actions that people can take. So what are, other than reading the book, what are some meaningful first steps for someone who wants to become a better treaty partner?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Sure. Yeah, we we did. We included um practical actions in the back. This is, you know, wholly because we do think that knowledge should support action, right? It should support change. Like now that now that you know these things, what are you gonna do about it? Um, the book also includes uh a timeline. So there's a timeline of treaty making way back to time immemorial, all the way to the to the present day, um, to some of the most recent modern treaties that have been um established, negotiated, and and then agreed upon. Um and so I would say maybe the first thing that somebody should do is find out what lands they live on, right? Are they on treaty lands? Are they on unceded territory? You know, just at a basic level, where are you? And from there go and find out more. Um numbered treaties, the text of those, and uh the reports of the the government's treaty party, those are all online and available for for anyone to read. And if you're in treaty six territory, this could be a great year to learn more because there will be celebrations this summer and commemoration. I think you know, some there already have have been some about the 100th anniversary of Treaty 6. So lots of opportunities to to learn more, I'm hoping. Um, but yeah, that would be the first step I would recommend to somebody is find out where you are.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

That's great advice. Uh Crystal, how about you? Um, are there any basic steps that you think every every Canadian should really be taking at this point?

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Well, I think the first step is is to just start. Um, and that doesn't have to be a huge commitment. It does not have to be hard or uncomfortable. Um, it can be picking up the book, it it can be, you know, it's it's also summertime. So maybe there is a pow-wow or a round dance in your area, um learning about, you know, the indigenous communities around you. Um, I mean, in many ways, non-Indigenous Canadians interact with Indigenous peoples all the time. They just perhaps don't know it and don't really give it a second thought. Um, so drawing upon the knowledge and relationships that you already have is is also a great way to start. Um, but 150 acts of reconciliation is is also something really easy. It is just a website that you can visit, you can scroll all 150 acts, think about what speaks to you, um, what place you are in your life. I mean, we have acts that involve children and families, we have those that involve coworkers, um, an act that encourages folks to listen to podcasts like this one. Um and maybe for more for more advanced folks who want to think about how to further this conversation. Um it treaties are are everywhere, as I've mentioned. And and so thinking about how the various resources that do exist connect all together. And and here I'm referencing um the Royal Commission on Aboriginal People in 1996. That is several hundred pages. Um, we have the several thousand pages of the TRC final report and the 94 calls to action. We have the 231 calls for justice for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. Um, we have the special interlocutors report about um missing residential school children and unmarked graves. Um, there is more. There has been like a profound amount of work over the last several decades. Um, and so on the one hand, just that volume can seem pretty intimidating, um, but just starting with a small piece, you know, when when the TRC final report was published, um, we had people reading sections of it on YouTube so people could listen to it. We had workplaces organize a read and lunch where they would read a chapter every week and then get together and talk about it as a group. Um I have seen employers pay their staff to take the University of Alberta's massive online course called Indigenous Canada. Um so there is so much out there resource-wise, and so many lovely and willing and enthusiastic people to have conversations with, whether um whether that's Indigenous or non-Indigenous peoples in this country. Um and so just making the start sometimes can be a big commitment, but um it's it's it's worthy, it's a good one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

So was there a a story or a moment from all of this research that you did? Is something that really affected you that stayed with you long after the book was finished? And Crystal, if I can start with you on that one. Or if there were anything, any chapters or any areas that were particularly uh challenging to get through or uh maybe emotionally uh more on the challenging side.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Well, you know, so I can answer these questions this question, I think, in in two different ways. Um you know, first when I mentioned that that it's kind of all related, um that is true in the sense that Sarah and I felt that we needed to include a section in the introduction which basically says that these histories are a history of colonization, of genocide, of forced relocation, of the involvement of policing in Canada, of military. Um and and so, you know, even though we try to write this story that is inviting and friendly, um, we also do need to acknowledge that through treaty making processes, um, that there is a darker history there. Um one that includes child apprehension, residential schools, the past system, um, and the OCA crisis, um, which by the way was the largest military exercise ever on the part of the Canadian state. Um so tricky trying to, you know, include enough nuance to be really thorough and um and respectful of these histories while trying not to bring people down and and feel like treaty is is not a good opening to these kinds of conversations, right? Um that was hard to get through sometimes. Um, the other thing that I was going to mention is is just learning about the amount of good work that is happening in these areas. Um, you know, as Sarah mentioned, we read very widely, and like this book would not exist if there wasn't many, many Indigenous scholars who came before the book in order to write and publish in scholarly formats, treaty experts and indigenous knowledge keepers who took the time to upload their video onto YouTube to share interviews uh on the radio that we listened to. And um, and so that wouldn't the book wouldn't exist without that knowledge already being shared. Um and one of the organizations that I see leading these conversations is the Yellowhead Institute. Um, we were so lucky to have their support. They brought us to Toronto in March and held one of their Yellowhead fires where we were able to be in conversation with treaty scholars Hayden King and Gina Starblanket. Um, but they also have their new online treaty map, um, which is just so amazing. I encourage everyone to go check that out. And the newest version of that map includes a whole section on treaties since time immemorial. Um yeah, so you know, on the one hand, um the colonization and genocide and destruction that were behind some of these treaties, but then on the other hand, um the ways in which these conversations are being carried and led by Indigenous scholars today is quite amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

And and Sarah, I'll turn that over to you as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Thanks. Um, I I you know all that Crystal said as well, I wanted to add that one thing that um really sticks with me out of this book, and um many many nations have um have you know, I guess, compiled knowledges for their peoples to have in the future. And sometimes this is in written form, sometimes this is YouTube videos like like Crystal said or interviews and Crystal's Nation, the which in has like many amazing um books and and documents um that that were created, and um it was a real gift to be able to learn from those in this book, and and you'll find a a lot in there um about Avatukai, um, a a traveler and um uh yeah, an ancient traveler for lack of a better word, who made the world safe for people, who made agreements with animals, um, and who like gestures towards future possibilities as well. And I think it's it's amazing to know that you know the this these um these knowledges are there, um, they've been compiled for their people, um, and they speak to our present day realities. Um, I think I hope that's something that readers can see in this book as well. And so I don't know, I think, I think that will definitely stay with me forever. The knowledge that um wherever uh we are on these lands, there's really um important knowledge to to shape our futures together. So um, so yeah, in addition to to balancing the really um challenging and and damaging parts of of our shared history here, there's also a real um I have a real respect and admiration um for for the people and and the knowledge and and you know with thanks, with thanks to the Wichin Nation in this case for the for compiling those stories. It's it's truly wonderful. And as I say, others across the continent have similar um bodies of knowledge.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:20

It's great. Well, I would love to hear what's next, what's coming up next for both of you, Sarah. If you want to carry on, you know, what's do you have more collaborations on the horizon? Are you uh is there anything that is is coming up next? Love to hear more.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Well, right now Crystal and I are still having quite a bit of fun sharing about this book. It came out in February 2026, and we've had the chance to to travel a little bit and and launch the book in in different parts of the country. Um, and we hope to do more of that um you know later on this year too. Um so I think that's the main thing we're doing right now is is sharing as widely as we can and having conversations like this one and inviting people in um to to talk trees with us. Um and in terms of future collaborations, I don't know. We'll see where we get invited. I mean, um I think I'm I'm always open to to write uh to write with Crystal. It's I really enjoy working with her. Um I think for both of us too, like, you know, for me, this has this had sent me off to envision a novel project that I need to work on where, you know, the group of people in that novel, they um they are sort of living um a lot, like they are aligned with treaty principles and how they set up their um their camp as a group of indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples. And so that's something that I guess comes out of this book and that I'd like to explore in future, but really have just jotted down a few notes so far.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

So keep an eye out, in other words. And Crystal, what about you? What's what's coming up next, other than maybe some more travel and talking treaty with other uh people across the can't the country?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah, well, I'm very excited for the big treaty six anniversary. Um that will be great. And and to continue this conversation, particularly in Alberta during a time of you know robust discussions about treaties, about the role of of Canada. Um Um, so we'll see how those play out. Um, and you know, I'm looking forward to uh returning to some community work. Uh a number of years ago, the community of of a clavic um Northwest Territories had had flagged their their interest in in working on maybe a history book, um, maybe some other kind of format, but um a history of of their community. Um so that work is is underway. I'm also about to head off on my one year sabbatical, um, which will allow me to focus in new and different ways. So yeah, looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:27

Wonderful. Before I let you both go, I have to ask where did the title come from? Because it's phenomenal. Who came up with that? Was that something that was you know brought on by an editor, or was that something you you both uh came to?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

We yeah, we thought of it ourselves. Um, I think it was we had had a meeting with our agent and our uh publisher to go over the outline for the book. Um, and in that conversation, you know, we talked about how we we wanted to reach a wide audience, and as a result, we wanted to call it something really evocative, um, something that would grab attention for lack of a better word. And um, I think after that call, we came up with the idea of talk treaty to me, and it just seemed so perfect because it does like it invites conversation, it's funny, um, it grabs you. Um, and I think um it also, you know, kind of there were there are um social media campaigns like speak witch in to me, speak free to me, like those kinds of things that we were sort of referencing a little bit. Um indigenous language revitalization campaigns, uh basically. Um yeah, and since we've learned that there's also a play. So um there's a play called Talk Treaty to Me. Um, we've had the chance to meet the creators of that play. Is it Sam McNaughton and Teresa Cutknife? I think. Um and so Great Minds Think Alike, I guess. We had the chance to meet them and hear about their project, and it sounds like an awesome play. I hope I get to see it sometime. Um, yeah, so that's where that's where the title came from. Just kind of like inspiration struck, I suppose, but it it really suits the project, and and it's a lot of fun to have as a title.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:24

That's great. Anything else before we go? Any last words you'd like to leave our audience with?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

I do have one more thing, and um, that is the book is available also as an audiobook. Um, and Tiffany Ayalak uh was the person who narrated it for us. She is a Nanook from Yellow Knife, and it was just so amazing to work with another northerner on this project that was special to us. Um, she is also a very talented throat singer. Um, her voice is is beautiful. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:09

I love an audiobook.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

That was our conversation with Dr. Crystal Gale Fraser and Dr. Sarah Komarnitsky, authors of the national bestseller Talk Treaty to Me, understanding the basics of treaties and land in Canada. One of the ideas that comes through so clearly in both the book and our conversation is that treaties aren't simply something that happened in the past. They continue to shape our lives, our relationships, and our responsibilities today. Understanding them means asking questions about land, sovereignty, history, and the relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples. Talk Treaties to me is an invitation to keep asking those questions. And to recognize that learning about treaties is not just an academic exercise. It's part of understanding the place we live and the relationships we are all part of. That's it for this episode of U of A Reads. Thank you so much to Crystal and Sarah for joining us. To explore more author talks, webinars, and upcoming events, visit us online at uab.ca slash alumni. Thanks for listening to U of A Reads Stories Behind the Stories. If you like this episode, consider subscribing, sharing it with a friend, or leaving us a review. We'll see you next time with more stories behind the stories.