From Power Struggles to Connection: Parenting and Attachment with IFS + The Neufeld Approach

What if the key to raising emotionally healthy, resilient kids isn’t controlling behavior—but deepening connection?

In this episode of Self-Led Love, Bahia Miller is joined by parent coach and IFS practitioner Lisa Winer to explore a powerful blend of Internal Family Systems (IFS) and the Neufeld relational developmental approach. Together, they unpack how attachment, emotional safety, and understanding your own “parts” transform the way you parent—and partner.

You’ll learn why behavior is never the real problem, how to work with your reactive parts, and what your child actually needs to thrive. This is especially powerful for parents navigating toddlers, big emotions, screen time, and different parenting styles in relationships.

✨ Inside this episode:

•  Why attachment—not behavior—is the foundation of development 
•  How to work with the part of you that “loses it” 
•  What “counterwill” is (and why your kid resists) 
•  A nuanced take on screen time + emotional health
•  Why play (even aggressive play) supports development 
•  Navigating different parenting styles in partnership

This episode will shift how you see your child—and yourself. Whether you’re parenting a toddler, teen, or your own inner child, this is a must-listen.

🎧 Tune in to lead your family from Self.

Connect with Lisa Winer:

•  Website: https://www.lisaweiner.coach/
•  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisaweiner.parentcoach
•  Neufeld Institute: https://www.neufeldinstitute.org/

Resources:

• Hold On to Your Kids – Gordon Neufeld & Gabor Maté 

If this resonated, share it with a parent who needs this reminder: connection comes first 💛

✨ Follow on IG: @bahiamiller

🌈 Free resources + more from Bahia:
Bahia’s Unblending Meditation: https://bahiamiller.com/unblend
The Self-Led Love Checklist: https://bahiamiller.com/checklist
www.bahiamiller.com

🔮 For couples who are committed to growth and ready to build real emotional intelligence together using IFS — the Self Led Love Lab waitlist is open: https://bahiamiller.com/waitlist

Want to go deeper into the work?
🎧 For our podcast community:
Join the Repair for Relationship Resilience Workshop for $22
Use code PODCAST
https://bahiamiller.com/repair-workshop

*Self-Led Love Podcast Disclaimer*

Self-Led Love is a space for reflection, education, and relational growth. The content shared here is offered for educational and informational purposes only, and reflects my lived experience and professional perspective as an Internal Family Systems–informed relationship coach.

Any stories shared on the podcast are either my own, anonymized, or composite examples drawn from real experiences. Identifying details have been changed to protect privacy and confidentiality.

This podcast is not a substitute for therapy, medical care, legal advice, or mental health treatment. While many listeners may find resonance, insight, or support through this...

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Self-Led Love with me, your host, Bahia Miller. Together, using the powerful framework of Internal Family Systems, we will take on the spiritual and also human curriculum of becoming radically responsible for our parts and how they show up and grow up in intimate partnership. I'm so glad you're here. Let's dive in. Welcome back, everyone, to Self-Led Love. This week I am so excited to bring you fellow IFS practitioner and parent coach Lisa Weiner. Welcome, Lisa.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Thank you. Yeah. So glad to be here with you. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, I'm gonna read your bio just to kind of anchor us in so that our audience knows who you are. Here we are, and it's Lisa Weiner is a nurse practitioner, faculty member at the Newfield Institute, NI certified parent consultant, and a level three IFS practitioner. Using her mastery of the relational development approach articulated by Dr. Gordon Newfield, Lisa supports parents in deeply understanding attachment and the conditions conducive to the unfolding of emotional health and maturity in their children and teenagers. When parents have parts of them that get in the way of them being able to provide what their children need, Lisa skillfully weaves IFS into her session so that parents can befriend these parts, get to know why they do what they do, and ultimately release any burdens that are blocking their access to inherent open-hearted self-led parenting. In addition to parent consulting, Lisa is a much-loved teacher of the Newfield Institute classes, where she teaches to an international audience with her down-to-earth blend of humor, story, and ability to make complex and nuanced theory accessible and inspiring. Lisa is also a writer, editor, and speaker. Lovely.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yay. Wow. Yes. I did.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

I stole it from your website. Where?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Where's that from? I sound she sounds all right.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yes. Yes. Your proud professional part wrote that bio.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, and my part that's here is like, huh. I don't remember. I mean, I remember writing a lot of it, but some some of the turns of phrase I was like, cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah. Well, I'm so excited that you're here. Thank you for being here. So many of the clients that I am fortunate to support are parents of young children, right? Recalibrating their relationships after the early, early years of parenting. And some of them have older children and some don't have any children, some want to have children. I just feel like this is going to be a really important conversation because when you add children to the mix, things thing relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah, they really, really do. And also I find that all the understandings we bring around parenting and child development obviously apply to our inner system too, right? Like whether or not you have literal kids outside of your body, we all have lots of kids inside of us. So this applies the same internally as well as externally. So it's useful for everybody to understand more about kids and their needs and what good parenting looks like and how to support how to yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yes, yes. You hear that term so often, like we're reparenting ourselves while we're parenting our kids, right? And I think that is kind of what you're speaking to and how to do that, like consciously do that. I'm so curious how you're guiding people to do that. And I'm curious about what the Newfield Institute is and how that relates to IFS. And do you want to just bring us into your world a little bit, like to give us your story of how you came to all of this and how you carry it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Yeah. So, okay. So I have two sons who are just like the lights of my life. They're amazing.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Um, before they were born, I was a nurse practitioner.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

I mean, still am, but I haven't, I was practicing in a busy um OBGYN clinic and I did women's health. Um, and I loved it. And then when right before I gave birth to Ezra, I decided that I wanted to not be doing that, you know, really busy, stressful job. I wanted to stay home if I could, and I was lucky enough to be able to do that. So I stopped working in that capacity, did not even think about in those early years of motherhood, like, well, maybe I should think about like keeping my license updated or like anything like that, let it all just go. And then, like 10 years in, when I was like, oh, maybe I'd like to work a few days a week as a nurse practitioner, found out like basically I needed to go back to grad school. Like I had just, I say it was a really interesting and expensive five-year career.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

So that was that. And that was okay because my passion was really starting to be in understanding child development and what was going on in my boy. And by this time, I had my second son, and I just loved being a mom. I felt like my whole system felt like this is like the role of my lifetime. I just like, I just love it. There was this older man, we had this beautiful park near us, and I used to in the mornings walk Ezra and our dog in the park, and I would see him, and he would say, You just look like the like happiest mom I've ever seen. And it wasn't that I was like happy every day, you know, I was exhausted and, you know, all the things, but there was something about being a mom to my to my particular sons that just felt and continues to feel like such an honor and such a gift, and so like just so beautiful to me. So I was like, I want to do something in this realm. And my kids went to Waldorf School all the way through. And at that time, the book Simplicity Parenting, I don't know if you're familiar with it, was like the book that everyone was reading. And my kids had this amazing, amazing early childhood teacher. And she um, when parents in the preschool class were like, come talk to her about concerns, one of them came to me and told me that she said, Go talk to Lisa. Like her parenting instincts are really good. And so that felt I felt like I'd been like bestowed this blessing by this woman who I admired that like, okay, this is now gonna be my path. This is what I'm gonna learn how to do. So I um the first like easiest step seemed like I was gonna train to be to lead simplicity parenting groups. They were offering trainings for that. So I did that. And I started leading classes in that in the Portland area. This is when we did everything in person and live.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And that was great. I loved it and just felt like, oh, this is this is my jam. This is really great. And then they offered an advanced training a few years later. And in that training, we read Hold On to Your Kids, which is the book by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate. The book is Gordon's um, Gordon's work, and Gabor had the entree as a writer, and he was a client of Gordon's, actually. And he was like, You need to write this and let's do it. So we read that book, and I was like, I jumped ship. I was like, I need to go find this guy because like he is really, it went so much deeper than the simplicity parenting stuff. So I just Googled him and online I found the Newfeld Institute. It's um, you know, they offer, I say they because I wasn't a part of it yet. Now I would say we, but they offer all these classes online. And I just dove in and started taking a bunch of classes. They're amazing. I was like, why is Gordon Newfeld not like known, so known. And it turns out that Gordon is so brilliant and so amazing and so has so much integrity that like the whole marketing, like self-promotion world is just he is not, that's not a game that he wants to play. And so people who find him are like just all in, and it's like you're your blessing if you stumble upon him. So I started diving and taking classes, whatever. And then they had this facilitator training program where you could do a two-year training program. It was really hard to get into, huge application, but then you could teach his classes, you could bring his classes. So I was like, I want to do that. I applied, I was so happy I got in. I did that. Then at the end of that, my like advisor for that program was like, Hey, um, Gordon would like to extend an invitation to you to do a faculty internship with him. So that was like it felt like I, you know, won an Academy Award. So I couldn't have been more like honored. And so then I got to do two years of like one-on-one study with him, which was so, so great. Like I could ask him all my questions and really, really integrate the approach and apply it to my life and you know, know it from the inside out, really, like how it applied to my kids and me and my parents, and you know, everything. And so that was maybe eight years ago that I did that. And so I've been on faculty since. So I teach classes and go to conferences, and then I also certified through the institute as a parent consultant. And so I that's what I do every day is I meet with parents and I support them in their parenting. And so then a few years ago, I was like, I found IFS, I found it through like personally, through my like my own therapy, and started training and really liked it and was like, oh, this is like a there was a lot of overlap. Obviously, the language is different, you know, like we call different things different, you know. Gordon calls them defenses, we call them protector, you know, all of that. But um there was no conflict. There was no like um there was no conflict. And I found it really, really helpful to weave that in when parents, because a lot of what I do is um help parents to see their kids through the lens of child development and compassion. And that can soften a lot and see what's needed. But a lot of times parents would see that and understand that and say, I get all that, Lisa, but I can't stop yelling.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Right, right. The part of them that yells, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah. So then it was like, okay, let's now I had this other way to support that, you know, to be like, okay, let's be with that part of you that yells and see what that's trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

I love it. That's so awesome to have this complementary, like and such deep alignment in your path for like what you just love to do. And then it sounds like the universe just kind of kept opening the doors and said, Yes, come deeper, come deeper, support others.

unknown 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

This one. It's beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah. So, yeah. So now I use both and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah. And right. So, where do we want to go from here? I I have some like specific kind of curiosities of my own that I would love for us to get to. I know that there's like toddler and teenager, those are like two big developmental zones. What do we need to understand about development, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

That's a huge question.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

It's a really good question, too. Um, it isn't, it is big. But so in like the smallest little nutshell, I feel like maybe a lot of your listeners are familiar with IFS. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't need to explain that as much. But the Newfeld paradigm, or what's often called the Newfeld relational developmental approach, is not as well known as I said. Um and at its core is understanding that that nature has a plan for the unfolding of human development, that it's not, it's not something that we need to manipulate or make happen. And in this way, you'll see the orientation is very similar to IFS. It's like a constraint-removing approach that we want to not get in the way of the unfolding of our child's potential. And there's lots of ways that we as parents and teachers and society can get in the way. One way is not understanding what's appropriate developmentally and um asking for something that's not developmentally appropriate or disapproving because of developmentally appropriate behavior, all of those can get in the way. So, what we want to do is we want to support, we want to work as partners with nature. We want to midwife the unfolding of our child's potential. So at the heart of what allows things to unfold is attachment. Attachment is what needs to be there to allow things to move and to allow a child to feel. Feelings are the engine of maturation. And um, so attachment is what makes it safe to feel. Being in a dependent, we need to invite our kids to depend on us, to lean on us. And dependence is such a is such a tricky concept these days because there's so much effort being put into pushing independence. But really, again, independence is a fruit of development. It's it will happen if we can invite really generously our kids to rest in our care and lean into us. So yeah, I would say some of the foundational, foundational principles of the of the Newfold approach are to um be in right relationship, which is inviting our children to unconditionally exist in our presence. So relationship is the bottom line, behavior's never the bottom line, and to allow them to depend on us. And if we can do that, there's a lot of nuancing to all of that. It's easier said than done, especially with sensitive kids or kids who've um, you know, experienced difficult beginnings. Um, but it's always possible. It's a very, very hopeful approach. It's never too late, it's always possible um to unlock unfolding potential and development, even if it's at age 60. You know, it's always there. We're we're, you know, unfolding and growing and developing ideally until the day we die. Um yeah, so it's a it's a lifelong path.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

And yeah, um I feel like IFS, right, is so much about that attachment with ourselves, right, as grown-ups and that attachment style, I guess, that blueprint I imagine comes from how our parents are attaching to us and our peers and like all those different attachment experiences. Is that kind of yeah, or is it more complicated than that? Am I being reductive here?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Um, you know, I'm not a huge fan actually of a of the whole attachment style tell me framework. Yeah. Because I feel like that is a that is attachment is is something that is very, very relationally specific. And so, yes, of course, if if you know our early relationships or or our main one was care could be characterized by this label that is so popular now, you know, which which attachment style are you and whatever.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yes, avoidance.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Yeah, yeah. But that that says nothing about um, yeah, there's a part. There's a part that in that relationship, you know, learned how to, you know, get what they needed in a certain way. But um we are all capable of um deep and healthy attachment. And so I feel like the label can um it almost is like a half-truth, like it gets something right for sure. It gets something right about, you know, some parts and some early relationships, but it can become very, it can become like an identification, an excuse sometimes, you know, that's who I am, you know. And um, I feel like sometimes it blocks curiosity and it blocks also the understanding that we don't have a blueprint for attachment. We have a blueprint for healthy unfolding. And we can we can attach in so many different ways, depending on either the invitation that is being extended to us by another person or the invitation that we are extending to, you know, our child or someone who we want to rest in our care. So I think it can be, I think it can be constraining. If, you know, if people find that helpful to explain certain things, then that's great. I think attachment is just like a much bigger thing than one style per person.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Well, I appreciate that because I whenever I hear anxious, avoidant, secure, whatever attachment, I'm always like, oh, well, I'm just in the disorganized category, which right just because I have all different parts that have different attachment styles and there's so much nuance to it. But then calling myself disorganized, I'm like, oh great, now I'm that messed up. You know, it's just like it can be helpful as like a learning, you know, awareness piece, I think is kind of what you're saying, but also it's not so simple.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

It's not so simple. Okay. And it can block a lot of um, it's like seeing something I feel like through like a little, you know, like looking through like a paper towel, you know, tube and seeing the world in that way rather than um just looking in binocular vision and seeing a lot of nuance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

And then I'll just, you know, this piece around attachment, like as a parent, right? I have a four-year-old son, and you know, in the things that I've read and the methodologies I've been curious about and tried on, right, there's I can see like there's gentle parenting, and then there's a critique that you can be too gentle of a parent and like permissive and right, like giving your power to the child and not holding structure. And then there's more like old school style parenting, lay these are the rules. And how does where does your where do you sit in the spectrum of yeah, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

That's a really good question. So, yeah. Trying to think how best to answer it. Where I sit personally, or the kind of parent that, you know, I I am personally, and um the kind of parenting that we see as what kids need at the Newfeld Institute. I hope are I strive for those to be aligned. Um, you know, practice what I preach. I of course have my have my shortcomings for sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Well, you're a human. I am. Oh, me too.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Some of my parts don't like that. Right. Actual fact, but yeah. Um, I have a lot of perfectionist parts, especially around parenting, because it's so important to me. Right. Um at the Newfold Institute, in the in the Newfold approach, we are very much about relationship as the bottom line.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

And behavior is never the bottom line. And when there is bad behavior, we bridge it, meaning we face into connection. We don't send a child away. We don't say, you know, I can't be with you if you're like that. We don't, because we understand that misbehavior, whatever, is always because the child either is unable to do what we want in that moment, or is unwilling to do what we want in that moment. Those are the two reasons. And if they are unable, because they're developmentally, you know, we're asking something that is not developmentally available to them, you know, we're asking them to do something that their brain is not yet ready to do, which we do a lot with kids. So it's really important to understand what is developmentally appropriate and what is not. We apply adult standards to kids all the time. And I always say it's like if if you were like disapproving of me because I couldn't fly, like, you know, like I can't, you know. And what am I supposed to do with that? You know? So they either can't or they don't want to because of many reasons. And relationship, extending that warmth and an invitation to be in relationship with us, no matter what is going on, is what is going to over time address both of those reasons. So the relationship is what creates the rest that needs to happen for maturity to happen. So the kid actually will be able to do the thing. It supports brain development. So we're actually we're playing the long game. So we're not saying, oh, do whatever you want. We're saying I want to support you in growing towards, you know, a civilized, considerate, whatever being. We're not saying I'm okay with you hitting your brother for the rest of your life, but we're looking at what will best support getting there. And that is relationship because that supports maturity. Or for the unwilling portion, kids want to be good for people who they feel like them, who they feel have a good, you know, view of them, who love them. So it will also take care of us being able to have the role, the position in our kids' life that mostly, not always, they're gonna want to do what we say. So relationship addresses both fronts of bad behavior. Bad behavior. So it's not gentle parenting in the way that it's often presented, which is everything goes, do whatever you want, you're in charge. Not at all. We very much believe the kids need to be, the adults need to lead. The kids need to be in the dependent role because the brain can't rest if it's in charge. So they need to be looking to us for their cues, for their comfort, for everything like that. And it is not harsh or authoritarian parenting, because that ruptures attachment. And we know that attachment is the key that it unlocks it all. So it's a middle, it's a middle road. What it would look like, like your question, like what does it look like? Yeah. So it would look like saying, you know, do you want to give me an example?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Well, thank you for for because I actually have a part that's bubbling inside of your right. As you're saying, like this unwillingness piece, I'm thinking of my four-year-old, and I'm like, Can you can you go put your shoes on? Yeah. He's like, I'm gonna go get my truck. And I'm like, Oh, can you please put your shoes on? And I'm like, okay, she's saying, What I'm hearing you say is that if my kid likes me and respects me and feels connected to me, he's gonna put his shoes on. But that is not what's happening, Lisa. Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah. Okay, let's nuance this a little more. And this is what's always hard in these like short conversations, because you know, the theory's complex and beautiful and is very congruent, but it's big. So, okay. Toddlers and teenagers are very similar in a lot of ways. And a big characteristic is both of both of them is a instinct called counter will. And counter will, and I and I explain this to adults all the time, and I've never yet, here maybe you'll be the first, like highly most highly evolved person I've explained this to, but uh everyone can identify this. So when you're at a stoplight and you're at the front of the line and you don't notice that it turns green and the person behind you honks for you to go, that impulse inside you that maybe you don't align with, you know, you but like I said, I've yet to meet someone who doesn't know what I mean, that wants to like not go or go slowly or take our own sweet time, you know, that is counter will. Right. And it is the instinct that we resist when we feel coerced.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah. My husband says you should exercise, and I say, no.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dog, and all mammals have it, my dog has huge counter will. He follows me around all day, like under my feet. But at night, when I want him to come get in his bed, so I'm actually calling him to do the thing that he wants to do all day long, but now it's my agenda. Yeah, he will not come. Yeah, he will not come. Yeah, you know, so um we when when the coercion feels bigger than the than the self-generated will to do something, we don't want to do it. So that's a counter will instinct.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

It's there in all of us. Like we said, development is beautiful, there's no mistakes in human design. It's there for two reasons. The first is is that it protects us against outside influence. So attachment often, when it's activated, and that's another thing, like you say, like, does this mean your son's not attached to you? No, not at all. It could mean in that moment he's more his attachment energy is going more towards his play than towards you. It doesn't mean globally he's not attached to you. But activated attachment energy helps counter will lie down. So if my husband walks in the door and I say, take out the garbage, he's probably gonna have counter will if I haven't seen him all day. But if we've said, you know, hi and we've had a warm greeting and we're chit-chatting, and I say, Oh, remember tonight's garbage night, it will go down a lot easier. So counter will is meant to, and it protects kids from outside influence. So it's like, I remember very clearly being at the grocery store with my kids when we were little, and I would see someone I knew and I would be talking to them, and my kids would be watching me. And when they'd leave, they'd say, Do we like her? Mama, is she nice? Is she and it was like, you're our person, give us our cues. So what I say was gonna go in. So when we went to check out and the woman gave him a sticker and said, Say thank you, my son got counterwill. He didn't want to say thank you because he doesn't know this cashier at the grocery store. So then I would say, before, because this would happen every time and it would be a thing. I would say, listen, sweetheart, she's gonna give you a sticker, and when someone gives you something, you say thank you. No problem. Because it was coming from the right person. So counter will is there to resist outside influence, and it's also there to protect emerging selfhood. And toddlerhood and adolescence are huge times of emerging selfhood. And so when his energy is going into exploring who he is, exploring his world, counterwill protects it. I say it's like noise canceling headphones. It's like mama, like I'm doing, I'm under construction right now. I am building myself, don't tell me what to do. So you're running into counter will. So ways to deal with that are to warm up the relationship before we issue instructions to make the shoes a time of connection, a time of play, a time of a game. We often think, again, because as adults, we can tell each other what to do and we have longer attachment memories. But for kids, their attachment memories are very short. If he's engaged in what he's engaged with, us just tossing out from the other room what we want them to do is gonna vote for counterwheel.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

But if we come in and we play for a few minutes with the truck, and maybe we drive the truck over and the truck wants to watch you put on your shoes, we're in their world and counterwheel will lie down.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yes. Yeah, this is making a thank you. This it's really like helpful just to understand like where his attachment, like that his attachment or his orientation could be towards his his own expression and curiosity versus right. And this almost I feel like somebody said this to me once, and I want to talk about screens because I have a lot of curiosity around screens in these. Yeah. But somebody told me once, like when they're watching something sit down beside them, get involved in what it is that they're doing first, and then you know, we're gonna turn it off.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Great advice, great advice. Because where their eyes are going, where their attachment energy is going, that's their attachment energy. So if we barge in, because we assume like we love them all the time, we don't really need that same kind of like warming up. And adult brains are capable of multiple attachments at the same time, and four-year-old brains are not. So, whatever he's engaged with, that's his thing. Right. And we forget that because we do, and then we're coming in and we're being perceived as like, you know, a competing thing. No. But if we can join and connect, I think of it sometimes as like the the cord on your laptop with a green light. Like if we had a green light on our kid's forehead. Okay, are we good? Are we synced up? Now your son is gonna be much more receptive and open to what you're asking him to do.

SPEAKER_01 31:29

Okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah. Yeah. And like, like you said, like really kids toggle between attachment, emergence, attachment, emergence, when they're filled up, they go play, they discover their world, they then they need a refill. And if we're barging in on their emergent time, we're gonna get like, no.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

That's really helpful, just to recognize and have some reverence for their emergence time. I love that, and I'm gonna take that and I'm grateful for that. Yeah. And yeah, so maybe pivoting a little bit, I mean, to this piece around screens. And I'm curious, like, right, this is we got screens now, we got video games, we got AI now. I just watched this documentary that totally freaked me out about the future of our world, right? I have some parts. What was it? Well, it was a movie, it was actually about social media, but it talked about AI too. It was um a new documentary a friend of mine has just um just put out. It's called Your Attention Please. Wow. And I think there's another one that's out there that just came out about AI. I haven't watched it yet because I had nightmares about AI after I watched the last one. Yeah. But so screens, and then like I also kind of want to talk about when parents have different approaches to something like or sugar or you know, listening or whatever. Like, how can because you know, I'm working with couples, we have different parenting styles, yeah. How to negotiate and like respect each other, maybe of the different way with our kid, but how can we yeah? And I see parents getting triggered by the way each other is parenting a lot.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Right? And so that's there's the relational issue, and then I also want to talk about screens, just like because I have my own curiosity around like, what do I want to be thinking about? I know there's probably no right answer. There probably are optimal answers, but like, yeah, how to be making that decision for ourselves as parents about what's right for us and our kids. Yeah. So screens parenting. Okay, which one we want to be thinking about. Are there guidelines? Like, what does Newfield say about screens? Are screens I don't know. Are they what are here? Let me check in. What are my parts around screens? I'm scared as a parent because I'm like, you know, we let our son do an hour a day. And I'm like, I don't know, is that too much? I know people who do 45 minutes a week, I know people who do zero screens, I know people who do more screens. And, you know, my son is always asking for the screen, and that's what scares me.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Right? Because I'm like, oh, his first instinct is to go to this screen instead of to go to find his magnetiles and to go, you know. So that has created a scared part in me. I also don't be restrictive and create energy around it where it's like this bad thing.

unknown 34:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

And I am trying to curate like the superhero when he watches superhero stuff, then all of a sudden he like gets, you know, wants to fight, and I have a part that's like, no, no, I don't want to do the good guy, bad guy, fight thing, right? So those might be my parts. Maybe I'm getting in the way of his emergence, or maybe I'm actually like developmentally trying to curate. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I think I'm trying to get all those parts. Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautiful awareness. Um, yeah, really, like when we have a part that is alarmed as a parent, um, like you're right, like we don't want to be parenting from that place, like nothing good ever happens. So we want that part to to turn towards us so we can access more, more self-energy in our parenting. And that part also may have something like quite important that it that it's picking up on, or you know, it's not to say that so of course it's nuanced. What we really want to keep in mind with screens and kids is that play where something is moving from the inside out, emotional, emotionally expressive play is so important. It's how things can move and how kids start to feel. We do a lot these days of like teaching about feelings in school, all sorts of social emotional learning programs. Kids can have a very cognitive sense of feelings and all that. But we want we uh for development to unfold uh the way it's meant to be, we need kids who actually can feel their feelings and have a soft heart and can be can be moved by by their emotions. And the best way to do that is through play because things can come out in a safe in a safe way. And when screens for some kids come into the picture too much, they are so compelling to certain parts of a developing brain, yeah, that they can um what feels like a need to a kid for that type of um experience in the brain can become sort of so compelling, so sort of addictive, you know, that it can get in the way of that more expressive kind of play. So we just really want to be watching our our specific kid. Some kids are totally fine. One hour of screen time a day, 90 minutes of screen time a day, you know, and you know, close it up and they're, you know, off in the yard and they're playing. And for other kids, we see they're sort of living for that hour a day. And so much of the rest of the time is oriented towards, can I get a little more or when's that hour coming, or whatever? And it's, you know, it's it's having a a bigger impact than that hour. And that would be a time, again, in your good question before about like gentle or authoritarian. It is absolutely our job to make decisions that are in the best interest of the health and development of our child. They can really not like that. That is not at all what I mean about attachment coming first, that we wouldn't do something that would make our child feel upset. Of course, we need to do that. That is our job. So if it becomes that we're seeing this is becoming an outsized thing in their world, then it is absolutely responsible and important to say, you know what, we're not doing the iPad anymore. And we need to be there for the upset, right? That's what that's the mistake also that some parents make who lean towards say a more authoritarian thing is I'm gonna say the rule, I'm gonna lay down the law, but you're not allowed to be upset about it. Right. So we're in in this approach, we're saying it is absolutely my role to say no, that's not okay. And it is my role to allow for any reactions to that.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

An hour-long tantrum, crying, upset. Okay, yeah, you really didn't like that. I get it. Right. You wish mom had made a different choice. Totally get it. That totally makes sense. And I'm not changing my mind, you know, because I know you can get through a no.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

You know, I know you can get through it. Yeah, and I imagine it's the parent's role also to help foster that expressive play or to help reorient, right, towards that way of being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah. Yeah. Providing tools, providing outlets, not letting play get a kid in trouble. Like I was very, and you know, I'm not sure, but maybe I was sensing this part in you when like the good guy, bad guy thing. Like for a long time, I was very, I had parts who um feel very strongly about, you know, gun violence and all that kind of stuff, you know. And oh yeah, I did not want my kids to play with guns or anything like that. Right happening, yes. And yet, anyone's house that they would go over to who had like nerf guns or something like that, they were like, you know, could not tear them away. Yeah, what do I do about that? Okay, want to hear what I did? Yeah. So I was like, no, no, no, no. You know, we don't do that. I don't endorse that. You know, guns are dangerous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And um, and yet, you know, they'd be making guns out of sticks, and they'd be, you know, you know, okay, you're not gonna buy me an Earth gun? Well, you know, this is a gun, and they'd be making slingshots, and they'd be, you know, doing all that. And then I learned about play, and there's a whole field of like play theory and play science, and you know, this has been going on, you know, this has been part of human wisdom for millennia. Um, you know, we had the Olympic Games because people needed to get out that aggression and competition. And I started to understand that we as humans are really, really capable of understanding what's play and what's not, and I wasn't giving like enough credit to that. And that playing with aggression and violence and competition and all of that is a way for it to not be in reality as much. And if it's a thing that my parts are imposing this whole adult view of the world and politics and fears on, I'm like creating like more like energy and tension and taboo around it. I know you don't like where I'm going. I didn't like where I was going.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

I'm hearing you.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

This is like I needed to hear this.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah. And so I learned all this. And a woman I really who was sort of a mentor of mine at the Newfeld Institute, talked about how she would have her son's entire sixth grade class over at the end of the year. They lived on like several acres, and she would give them, they would all have Nerf guns and they would be running wild, like on her land. And she said the girls would be like, like double fisting with guns, and like, and at the end of the day, they were all just like clear and happy and soft-hearted. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't doing what we feared it would, which was make them violent or something. It was just allowing human impulses to move using this form. And once I learned all that, so um, I'm Jewish, so we celebrate Hanukkah, and um I found this kid on Craigslist. And then I was also like, all the plastic, like environmentally, you know, whatever. Sure. So I wanted to buy them used. And there was this kid on Craigslist who was like 17 who was like, I'm done with my Nerf guns, and he was selling like an arsenal of like Nerf guns. And I went over to his house and I bought them. And I came in one night of Hanukkah with like these sacks of like Nerf guns, like all the kinds and all the, and my kids were like, they didn't know what to do. Like this was such a 180. They actually one of them started crying because they were like, like, so like, I probably should have contextualized it more because they were just like, Who are you? You know, what do you? And I was like, you know what, sweeties? I changed my mind. I changed my mind. And like we're allowed to do that as parents, right? Like, I changed my mind. You're making me friends. Yeah. And we turned off all the lights in the house, and we had a full family, like hide and seek, like nerf gun night. And it was like we were all like my kids were like sweating and like we were creeping around corners. Like it was so fun. Like it was so fun for my parts and me. And it like it moved something. And did it change how they are in the world? Do they want an actual gun? Are they both no. No. It's like I didn't I don't know. My parts were scared, and scared parts don't, you know, have perspective and see the big picture. So that's my story about guns.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

I love this story. You have just changed something inside of me, a part that was so scared. And I see how powerful that is to have these pieces reframed and really brought into reality by an experienced mother, by a professional in child development. Like, this is so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah. And my boys are beautiful, tenderhearted, soft young men. Like this did not, like, I'm kind of like now. I'm like, of course this didn't change who they are. Like it just like was like fun play energy. And what what's allowed in play doesn't need to take up that much room in real life because it has a it has a place to run free, you know. But if we're locking down on, especially in boys, this kind of like natural, you know, I don't want to, I think girls have plenty, plenty of this too, but culturally, you know, whatever, we're really concerned about boys and violence and aggression. And yeah, it's in all of us, and it needs a place where it can come out that's not getting anyone in trouble. And that's not being, you know, told that they're a certain way or, you know, all this stuff. Like it just needs to move. And when things can move, then there's then they're discharged.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Go buy some Nerf guns. I'm gonna go buy some more Nerf guns. Yeah. I can tell you, I can just send you a box of my old ones, you know, we're done with them now. But like my kids, then I would hear like a group of 17-year-old boys in my basement, like playing, you know? Yeah. And having so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah. Okay. So my parts are like, where where should where should I be learning about like what is developmentally appropriate? And like, I mean, there's just so much wisdom that you have. And that is the gift of a practitioner who has spent so much time like deep diving an area and you can get exactly what you need. I guess that's the benefit of hiring anyone one-on-one is the laser, let me help you with this thing that you're struggling with. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, I have that. I don't know if there's a a book that you recommend or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Well, I definitely recommend hold on to your kids, which is okay's in Gabor's book. Yeah. For sure. Yes. Newfeldinstitute.com or dot org. We just got a new website. I think we're.org. Okay. Now we have like 40 classes that we teach live, or you can take self-paced. There's free resources. Newfeld Institute has a YouTube channel with like tons of amazing things. There's nothing like Gordon's approach. It's amazing. So highly, highly recommend checking that out if this piqued anyone's curiosity. Yeah. And if you have very specific concerns that you wanna, that you wanna nuance, then I do one-on-one sessions, yeah, which are really, really fun. I always say I'm sharing my eyes. Like that's what I'm doing. Like what we see influences what we do, right? So if we see gunplay as violent, then we're gonna, oh, we're gonna react a certain way. But if we see it as, you know, playful expression, we're gonna respond differently. So I share my eyes. You describe your kid to me, and I say, This is what I'm seeing. I love that. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah. And I love how individual, individualized it is based on your kid. Okay. Yeah. So I'm aware of time, and I just want to like bring this back to couples for a moment before we close out. Like, are there anything, any words of wisdom, thoughts about like two parents parenting in different ways, or, you know, yeah, there's so many different dynamics. I know I had mentioned to you about triangulation. I don't know if we want to get into that. That's like a whole other relationship kind of thing. Yeah, right. Where relationship issues are causing a focus more on the child than each other. But yeah, yeah, like in partnership for a couple who are trying to figure out how to parent side by side, how can this?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Can we really, it can be a few things. We're really, again, like sort of culturally have this idea that like parents need to be like, you know, totally aligned. And that doesn't really allow for for individu it like individuated people in a partnership like, of course, we're not gonna be like totally aligned, you know, and do things the same way in terms of parenting. And and that's okay. You know, kids are able to know what to what to, it's kind of like the attachment style, right? It's like, you know, there's room for different things to play out in different relationships with people. And that's okay. So, but more than being totally aligned, I feel like it it is important, if possible, to be on the same page. So to be sort of have the same approach and values around parenting. And that's where some psychoeducation, some developmental support, some classes, like an orientation being the same can be really helpful. Yeah. And the room for, you know, um you're gonna do it, you're gonna go your way, and I'm gonna do it my way, and that's gonna be okay. We don't need to be the exact same person. The child has a gift of having lots of people in their life, and each person has their gifts and their challenges, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah. What about when one parent feels like their way is the correct way?

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, things things can definitely get complicated. That's often where I might step in and say, you know, this is, you know, if I agree, you know, I'll say that, you know, where we can bring in some developmental wisdom to say, you know, if one parent thinks their way is the correct way and um yelling or scaring a child is the way to get them to behave, I'm not gonna be like neutral. Right. Just parent that way, right? No, right. I'm not gonna do that. And that's where, you know, oftentimes I also can be helpful because I have, you know, I'm an expert in child development and what what is is healthy and what is not. So I will explain. No, I actually don't agree with that. And this is why.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

And if you need help, yeah, because parts of you can't help that, I am all in with you. Yeah. But sometimes, yeah, I had this beautiful again when I was seeing people in person come in, this couple, and he was sort of like the stereotype of like an engineer, if I can use that like stereotype. You know, he was very kind of like literal and really smart, you know, a lot of smart parts, a lot of, you know, and the mom just thought he was just being just way too kind of like harsh and having like too big of expectations for their young kids. And I explained, you know, what kids need and what, you know, whatever. And at the end of the session, he was like, Lisa, I just want to say everything you said is very internally congruent. Like, I like it, like it makes sense to me. And then they enrolled in a class of mine. And after the first class where I was describing how we need to keep our kids' hearts soft and how we do that through relationship, he came up to me and he said, That was really hard because it made me realize how many things I've been doing wrong. But I want to thank you because now, like, I know better. And first of all, I like in that moment, my whole system loved this guy because I felt like that takes so much courage to have the humility to say that. We can get so, I mean, yeah, we have parts that just care so much that we can get so locked in and defensive. And he was really so open to incorporating new information when it made sense to him. And that's what also Gordon is super smart and has a lot of intellectual parts. So people who want something that like has proof and makes sense, he can he can do that. And all the while it's about having a soft heart and feeling your feelings. So it's really kind of both. And um, so that was beautiful. So again, like I said, I'm not going to say everything's okay, just follow what feels right to you. I'm gonna say this is this is what kids need.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Yeah. I love this, and I think it's probably so valuable to have a third party be the one who's saying that because your partner can be like, you're doing this wrong, you're messing up our kid, and it's like there's judgment, there's shame, there's defensiveness instead of somebody who's, you know, is an elder, right? You're like holding a space where we don't really have this built. Some people have friends with older kids, but everyone's busy. Like, how I hope people are talking to each other about these parenting struggles, but also like I just have so much, yeah, reverence for what you're holding down. Thank you. I'm aware that we were just talking about boys, boy energy a bit. And I'm curious for the people who have girls, because you know, right? If there are certain parental parts, right? Like the fear of boys and gun violence, the fear of boy aggression, like what are the fears parents might be carrying around girls?

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And yes. What I see often in parents of girls is trying to think how to best say this. Kids need to rest in our care and they need to feel that they can be soft and following our lead. That's like really important for them to be in relationship with us in the in the dependent position. And a lot of kids these days, for many, many reasons, are not. They're in the lead, they're what we call alpha kids, and they're kind of like they can appear very independent and kind of bossy and knowing their own mind and all of that. And all, you know, there's many good qualities in that, but it's like growth happens at rest. And the alpha position, the lead position, is not a position of rest, it's a position of work. And in the parent-child dynamic, parents should always be in the alpha position and kids should always be in the dependent position. And there's plenty of places for kids to exercise those muscles, but not in the parent-child relationship. And a lot of times these days, for really, really good reasons, people don't want their girls to get taken advantage of. They don't want their girls to get hurt. They will encourage these qualities to the degree that the girl is in the lead in the relationship. And therefore she's not, she's not, and growth can't happen. And so we're sort of blinded by these, again, these cultural dynamics and the things that we we want for our girls. We want them, of course, as adults to know their mind and be in charge and be in the lead, but that's not for childhood and that's not for them at home. And so parents are sometimes blinded by this and inadvertently not creating conditions where girls can be softened at rest at home. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Yeah, it almost sounds like a fear of softness, like a fear of too much, right?

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Yeah. Or a girl. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, who who's crying a lot or who doesn't, you know, to encourage almost more toughness because because of the culture we live in, and because often those parts are are needed and very important. And I'm not saying that they aren't, but in the parent-child relationship, when a girl is in the alpha role, we can be blinded to it and think it's great. You know, like I have many parents of girls who come to me and say, you know, this is gonna serve her really well, and it will. That's true. And she needs to have a place where she doesn't need to be like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

And that can be in the womb of attachment that she doesn't need to be like that.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

And often we can get blinded to seeing that because we're so relying on those qualities to keep her safe in the world as we see it.

SPEAKER_01 56:47

Yes. This is like stirring that, and we'll wrap in just a moment, but like this is kind of stirring like what feels like a very early motherhood part of me of when me and all my early mom friends are like assessing a baby's development. Are they walking? Are they crawling? Are they, you know, are they gonna get the skills that they need and the fear? And they're all doing it at different times, and we're comparing ourselves to the kids. It's like, whoo! Yeah. That fear of the developmental piece is kicking in. And what I'm hearing from you is just like a trust, trusting in the process, trusting that rest and safety and the relationship are enough that those things will come online in their timing.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Absolutely. And now I've had enough mothering under my belt that sometimes I felt like I'm going on faith here. You know, I believe in this. This makes sense to me. This feels, this feels right, this feels true, this feels wise, and I'm in the thick of it.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

And I'm just gonna go with this. I'm gonna go with the relationship. I'm gonna go with trusting development. And I hope I'm right. And now I can say I've come through a lot of those times and and um I'm a believer.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Right. Yes. Yeah. And finding the thank you for that and the balance of like finding the balance of that. And I'm just thinking, I just had a conversation with my four-year-old the other day about like stranger danger, and he is a people person. He will go up to anyone and be like, Hi, how are you? What do you do? You know, he just like loves people. And I said, you know, I asked him, like, what are strangers? And he said, Those are people who help me. And I'm like, okay, but like, so trusting their development and also being able to like put in the right safety guards, right? At the right timing in the right way. And and the perfectionism pieces of doing it right. Oh my god, we didn't even talk about the perfectionism, right?

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Yeah, yeah, that stranger interpiece. We could have a whole conversation about that because I have I have parts who have thoughts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I think I need to hire you. But if you love this conversation and want Lisa to come back, please let me know because I would love to just like keep going and um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to make sure you say before we kind of wrap up here?

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Um, well, we talked just to say we talked a lot about young kids. Yeah. Which is which is awesome, which is what I do a lot. But I also have a specialty in in adolescence.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

And so if there's parents of teenagers out there, we have a 10-week Making Sense of Adolescence class at the institute that is so amazing. I highly recommend that. Or if you have specific questions about your teenager, you know, that you want to talk about with me, I love talking about teenagers.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

Awesome. That's so good to know.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Yeah. Great. I think that's about it for today. You know, I like to ask people the two last questions. I don't know if you saw them on there. Like one is about unblending. Is there any way that you try to help parents or help children? I don't even know. Like, do we try to help children unblend? Or we just let them be helped. No, we're not trying. Yeah. I didn't think so. But as a parent, like, do you have any ways that you're helping people?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

You know what? Actually, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer that question a little differently because I I, you know, when you just said, do we help children unblend? And I said, no. But I'm having a thought, which is uh because I don't think of it as unblending, but it kind of is, is that um there's a certain age at which kids develop the ability to have more than one thought or feeling at once. And that kind of changes a lot in terms of parenting and um all of that. And again, we often try and do this before this capacity is online. It's often between five and seven, sometimes between seven and nine if the kid is sensitive. But how we can prime this is sort of a form of unblending. Or when this comes online is to sort of talk about, you know, us having a multiplicity of inner experiences. And they're not able to do that until this function comes online. It's a prefrontal cortex function. But like, for example, I would say, you know, one of my kids would hit the other and then they would feel badly, right? But they weren't having all these experiences at the same time. They were sort of one after the other. And I would say something like, you know, you know, that happens. That happens, you know, your hands move faster than your heart, you know, and just just pointing out almost not using parts language, because I think that's too, I think that's sort of more for grown-ups sometimes, you know. I would say, or I would say if I would do something that I I wasn't proud of with them, I would say I disagree with myself. And that felt feels like a form of unblending, right? Like there was a part of me that did that, and there's my heart doesn't agree with what I just did, and I'm sorry. And so sort of modeling that, you know, we have different parts of us that do different things. I feel like that's how I'm gonna answer your question. How we can do that with our kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

I love that that modeling, and I love that piece of developmental awareness that their brains can't hold that complexity yet. I need to learn more.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Yeah, because we often are like, well, how do you think that made the other person feel? Or like, you know, we do this, and like that's not a capacity they have. They're in their own experience. Yeah.

unknown 1:02:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:30

Yeah. Oh, and then the last question I ask everyone, and people have different experiences with this question, it's kind of a weird question. It just came to me. I'm asking everyone, like, if you could go back in time, right, based on everything you understand about relationship, romantic parenting, whatever, and give a piece of parenting advice, whispering it into the ear of a younger version of yourself, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

Yeah, it's funny. I was up in the middle of the night and that question, because you wrote you emailed me that question before, and it was going through my head, and I came up I came across like the answer that I wanted to give, and I don't remember what it was. I think probably my what I would say is like I'm here for them to have a sense of feeling accompanied by something, you know, by by my heart energy. But they're not alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:18

I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

Yeah. Yeah. Just that self self-support connection.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

Yeah, I'm here.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Here with you. I love that. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this has been such a fun conversation and I hope very educational for all of the parents out there. And more shall be revealed. We'll keep walking forward here. Thank you so much, Lisa. Oh, and how can folks can find you at the Newfield Institute where you're teaching there? And then you can see. I teach there, and then I have a website. Yeah. I saw that you have a free pamphlet on oppositional defiance, which I'm gonna go download. Just counter well, what we talked about, yeah. Right, yeah. Right? And I'll make sure all of that's linked so everyone can find you. Yeah. And I'm gonna try to write you into my world a little bit more. My people. Sounds good. All right, thank you. All right.