Loch Kelly on Effortless Mindfulness in Everyday Moments

In this episode of Mindfulness Exercises, Sean Fargo and Loch Kelly explore the essence of effortless mindfulness—a direct shift into awake, loving awareness that doesn’t rely on heavy concentration. 

Loch shows how quick “glimpses” can reset us, how flow isn’t the same as hyper-focus, and how using visual, auditory, or felt cues helps mindfulness land in everyday life and teaching.

Whether you’re a mindfulness teacher, therapist, coach, or a practitioner navigating stress or attention challenges, you’ll get clear language, quick practices, and compassionate tools to bring mindfulness into daily life and share it with integrity.

CHAPTERS

00:00 - Intro

06:18 - Catching "glimpses"

16:14 - Effortless mindfulness

19:18 - Going back to your ego center

24:55 - Guided Glimpse Practice

32:22 - What's doing the glimpsing

41:01 - How to release your barriers?

49:58 - Shortcut to understanding the mind

1:09:08 - Imposter Syndrome as a facilitator

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Email: Sean@MindfulnessExercises.com

Mindfulness Exercises with Sean Fargo is a practical, grounded mindfulness podcast for people who want meditation to actually help in real life.

Hosted by Sean Fargo — a former Buddhist monk, mindfulness teacher, and founder of MindfulnessExercises.com — this podcast explores how mindfulness can support mental health, emotional regulation, trauma sensitivity, chronic pain, leadership, creativity, and meaningful work.

Each episode offers a mix of:

• Practical mindfulness and meditation teachings
• Conversations with respected meditation teachers, clinicians, authors, and researchers
• Real-world insights for therapists, coaches, yoga teachers, educators, and caregivers
• Gentle reflections for anyone navigating stress, anxiety, burnout, grief, or change

If you’re interested in:

• Mindfulness meditation for everyday life
• Trauma-sensitive and compassion-based practices
• Teaching mindfulness in an authentic, non-performative way
• Deepening your own practice while supporting others

…you’re in the right place.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hi everyone, my name is Sean Fargo, founder of Mindfulness Exercises. Welcome to our podcast. Today I have the honor of speaking with Locke Kelly. Locke is one of the people I'm looking forward to speaking with most here on our podcast series. I find him to be a very deep and kind practitioner and teacher, someone with somewhat of a unique style of teaching, a style that I really resonate with, and I'm hoping that everyone listening will have a glimpse into what he teaches, and that you check out his offerings. Locke Kelly has a master's in divinity. He's a licensed clinical social worker, award-winning author, psychotherapist, and founder of the Effortless Mindfulness Institute. In fact, effortless mindfulness is a lot of what he's known for. He wrote a book called The Way of Effortless Mindfulness, a Revolutionary Guide for Living an Awakened Life. He's also the author of a book called Shift into Freedom: The Science and Practice of Open Hearted Awareness, which was named one of the top 10 best books of 2015 by Spirituality and Health magazine. He's the creator of the Mindful Glimpse app or Mindful Glimpses app, which you can download from wherever you get your apps, which features simple micro meditations, effortless mindfulness, and various other practices. He has a podcast called Effortless Mindfulness, the Effortless Mindfulness Podcast with Locke Kelly. And he also has a facilitator teacher training on effortless mindfulness, levels one, two, and three, which I highly recommend, in which Locke guides you on sharing effortless mindfulness with others. His teachings synthesize ancient wisdom practices, neuroscience, and contemporary psychology. He's dedicated to relieving suffering at its root and supporting people to live from their basic goodness. He's known for his warm sense of humor and his trust that awakening is the next natural stage of development. Locke teaches advanced yet simple non-dual pointers and direct methods of non-dual mindfulness informed by psychology and social justice. For those of you who are aware of the teacher Adya Shanti, who's hands down one of my favorite people, much less teachers ever, Aja Shanti says that Locke Kelly is one of the clearest expressions of authentic, awakened freedom and love that I know, which is high praise. Locke offers a unique experiential teaching style, which I really appreciate. It's not too heady, very experiential, simple, maybe not always, well, it's effortless. So I think it's very accessible to people, especially to those who struggle with concentration practice or focus. And he assists people in the recognition, realization, and full embodiment of our true nature. He's co-taught with some of the biggest names of mindfulness and neuroscience in the world, like Dick Schwartz and Dan Siegel, Jashanti, among many others. And he has a wonderful quote that I'd just like to read briefly here. Initial waking up leads to freedom from the fear of death. Waking in to embodiment leads to freedom from the fear of life. And waking out to relationships, creativity, and compassionate activity leads to freedom from the fear of love. So I think all of us can really resonate with fears of death, fears of life, fears of love. And so I find it very rich to consider these ways of waking up, waking in, waking out. As a licensed psychotherapist, Locke has been teaching seminars, supervising clinicians, and practicing awareness psychotherapy in New York City for over 30 years. He's a graduate of Columbia University and Union Theological. Locke, were you saying that your Masters of Divinity was from Harvard or was that from Columbia?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Union Theological, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Sorry, thank you. Union Theological. He was awarded a fellowship to study forms of non-dual meditation in Sri Lanka and India and Nepal in the early 80s. He studied Buddhism, insight meditation, interspiritual contemplative meditation, Advaita, various Tibetan Buddhist practices and traditions. And he returned to the U.S. and spent 10 years establishing homeless shelters and community lunch programs and working in a community mental health clinic in Brooklyn. He served as coordinator of counseling and interspiritual chaplain, Union Theological. And he worked extensively with families recovering from trauma of 9-11. He wrote those books that I mentioned, has his podcasts, his teacher trainings. He's very active in sharing this practice of effortless awareness, effortless mindfulness with the world. And so I'm very honored to speak with you today, Locke. Thank you for being on our podcast.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Thank you, Sean. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here and really connect again. And we had a nice time to chat a bit as we talked about our meeting. And yeah, just that we're both so involved with really bringing these kind of practical exercises to people is really, I think, so important.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah, absolutely. And uh and helping others to do the same. Locke, I'd love to learn more about how you found some of these practices. Can you talk about, say, the introductions of mindfulness as how they're classically taught or different meditations? Like how were you introduced to these practices in your life?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah. Yeah. Sure, I'd be happy to. Yeah, it's interesting. And I think for many people listening, once the formal introduction began, and I got these what I call glimpses, or these kind of peak experiences, or I use the word glimpse because it's not actually a high or altered state. It's actually direct letting go of the current curation or that which is clouding us and reveals no big deal. Just just life is here, and I'm, and there's an awareness that isn't identified with all the chattering mind. So I realized that I had had moments in my whole life and I had done certain things that weren't called meditation. And in fact, I could tell a little story with a, you know, one of the times I remembered immediately was playing sports as a kid. I was playing different sports and enjoyed them, and I played ice hockey goalie. And I realized at one point that as I was sitting there and trying and relaxing, and somebody would shoot a puck and I lost it through the legs, that I would just trust that all of a sudden my hand would go out and the puck would be there. And then I heard on TV a sportscaster say, it's like he's got eyes in the back of his head. And I thought, oh, that's not a psychic ability. That is actually kind of what I do. Rather than pinpointing my attention, I open my awareness up and feel this peripheral vision and then almost open to this field of awareness and then drop into my body and trust what athletes call, you know, being in the zone or being in the flow state, which has now been studied by many people. And so that flow consciousness is something that's embodied and alert and relational, open-eyed. And so my my friend, when I was like a sophomore in high school, came and said, Man, that was great. You know, you played a great game. How did you do it? I said, You really want to know? Okay, so I take my awareness and I open it up and drop it down, you know. And he was like, Okay, cool. And he just just walked away like a little too much information.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, you're weird.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

That's that's weird. I don't know what you're talking about. I was just I was trying to give you a compliment. I was just saying, great game. I didn't really want you to answer the question. Right. So, but what happened was one of the seniors on the team, the next practice, comes in, throws me a book, says, Here, kid, read this. And it's Zen and the Art of Archery. And so I picked it up and I was like, oh man, people like do do this. And it is related to sports. It's not just, but it's also like a spirituality or meditation, or but it's not a religion, and but it's like what is really valued in different cultures. That's kind of what I do, and it brings me such joy. And it's not just, you know, kind of leaving the world, but really being fully here. And so that led me to start to read some more. And then in college, I went and studied uh with Philip Kaploo, who was a Zen teacher up in Rochester, and then ended up doing a graduate degree in this subject. And then my first year at this graduate school, a Colombian, it was a joint degree, Columbia Union Theological. There was a fellowship to Sri Lanka, and I went off and did nine months of Vipassana meditation and you know, really had that experience both in the monasteries and university studied and also with these meditation centers there, and then went up to India and actually met the Dalai Lama, had just come back from France, where he had taught this form of Tibetan Buddhism, this direct practice called Dzogchen. And he had, it wasn't in primarily in his tradition, but he had studied it because it was in Tibetan Buddhism, presented it, and he was all enthusiastic. And so I put my hand up and said, Well, who do I go study with? Because I was there for three more months. And he said, Toku ergan in Nepal. So I changed all my plans, went up there, and took the, you know, the bus, you know, and the train and the, you know, outclim the hill. And there he was in a small place with just, you know, a few students, 12 to 20 at different times. And he gave this kind of simple talk for 10 minutes and then a pointing instruction of shifting of awareness. And immediately I felt the same way I did at the end of a 10-day silent retreat, except my eyes were open and I was laughing as well as kind of amazed. And I was just like, what was that? You know, is that magic or transmission? And it was like, no, no, no. That's pointing out. It's in you, the same in you as in me. I just pointed to you. You looked and discovered or uncovered this already awake nature. So this effortless awareness doesn't mean that you make no effort, but that when you make small efforts, you discover that there is this awareness that's behind the attentional, thought-based construction and the survival mode of the body in psychology. And there's this simple flow consciousness, this awareness that's very similar to that I discovered as a kid in sports, but now it is just accessible, not dependent on conditions like playing the sport, but just shift in, be, and then start welcoming the contents of consciousness. So then you can see immediately, you you kind of go directly to this. And then you can see from here, you see, like, oh, well, there's no self and everything's coming to going. Like it already shows you the insights of insight meditation from the a different level of mind.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yeah, I think this style will resonate with a lot of people who may find that sort of vipassana style or other styles of meditation rather difficult or laborious in terms of our perception that we have to like cultivate something over years or 10,000 hours of sort of strengthening a muscle through difficult effort of concentration or focus. And so I have some questions about this practice of like what you mean by shifting in and you know, the small efforts to you know uncover this awareness, but I'm fascinated by the origins of say how you started to sense into this as a goalie, hockey goalie. You know, I I watch sports and I can't imagine a more say stressful position to play in any sport than being a hockey goalie, where you know you have five people from the other team skating at you at you know 50 miles an hour, about to like, you know, hit hard puck, you know, within inches of you many, many times a game. And the pace is fast, kind of likening being a hockey goalie to the stress that a lot of people in life feel right now, you know, in their with their jobs and their families. But one of the things about being a goalie too is that you're not one of the players that toggles between offense and defense, like you're purely defense. And so one of the aspects of being a goalie, I would imagine, is that you do have some form of built-in breaks, if that makes sense. Like if your team is on offense, it gives you a small moment to, you know, wiggle the body, take a deep breath, relax. You know, you're still kind of paying attention, but not nearly as acute as when the other team is coming at you. And so I'm just kind of talking out loud about how being a hockey goalie may offer you this opportunity to toggle between this say focused awareness when the other team is coming at you versus a little bit more of a spacious awareness when it's your own team that's on offense. And so I'm wondering if you'd be able to maybe just riff a little bit on this metaphor of toggling a little bit. Is any of what I'm saying making sense?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

A little bit. Although I I see there's there's definitely the, you know, like many people who've studied how to get in a flow consciousness, extreme sports is one of the ways that is because you it actually is an optimal way of functioning. So it's not that you're hyper, hyper anxious, it's that you're more relaxed and you're trusting all the information is being processed from a higher mind or from flow consciousness. And flow consciousness is described as this guy, Chiksent Mahai, said that it's beyond the ego. You feel like you're in the now. Time slows down. You feel connected to your environment and whatever's happening. So you're interconnected. So you're actually more spacious than focused. You're actually more interconnected, relaxed, trusting. And the type of focus is not, is what I call. I have a program I just put up called Effortless Focus and Flow. So it's teaching people, training how I was trained and applying it to stressful situations, as you mentioned, that is so important to not tighten around and try to struggle with kind of the problem solver, smart ego manager that is a great part of the team, but not who we are once we discover this dimension of our, you know, true nature. So this is what this feels like. This when you shift into this true nature that's embodied and interconnected, this is how you effortlessly focus. And it's more spacious, embodied, and interconnected. It's it's like a natural, almost a shift. And I'll I'll talk a little about so the toggling, you know, there's a resting that because you're not always in its most intense form like a goalie butt, there's also basic on-off that you're either looking from what I call, you know, ego mind or small self, or you're looking from mindful witness, which is a detached kind of point of view, or you're looking from this more spacious, pervasive, awake mind that is embodied and what I call awake loving flow becomes the new normal way of just having it the baseline of how we can walk around during the day, because there is this type of mind, which is what you know, Buddhism and other wisdom traditions talk about, that is what all these cultures and these, you know, throughout history have revered as the most valuable optimal potential of human beings, which has been called awakening, or you know, that has qualities of compassion and love that are like kind of the essential qualities, but the inner experience is that you're not looking from this, you know, second level of human development, first level being a child who's dependent, and then you develop this in independent functional ego identity and ego function. And then from this model, you don't go to no self as if you some Buddhists and non-dual people say, then you just have no self. There's nobody here. But what you do is you step out of the ego identity and you still have the ego function. You still have, you know, your name, you know, your phone number, you know, food you like. But the operating system, the one who is aware to what to that to which the changing contents appear is all that's shifted. So in some ways, it's fairly simple. So it is this kind of figure-ground shift of mental, small, concentrated, attentional system, and then to this more dropped-in, open-hearted, open-minded presence that isn't just a state, isn't a meditation state. It's it's a stage, it can become a stage of development that the intensity broke through of the goalie, you know, broke through to show me the extr the difference. And then it was like, okay, but what's the daily way to kind of have the the bait and the new baseline?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, thank you for for sharing that and kind of helping clarify the process. I'm curious if you'd be able to maybe compare and outline a little bit of the practice that you did as a goalie versus what Tokul Toku Tolku Ergin said, which led to that experience, and then also versus your teaching of the process now.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah. Yeah. So the thing that's in common is almost the simplicity of where each of them arrives or what it reveals. So that word of recognize, you recognize your true nature, then you you have a realization that, oh, oh, there's this freedom, there's this connection. Oh, wait a minute. That's not a state appearing to my ego. That's I realize, no, that's me. The me can go back to the state called monkey mind or small ego center. That's a state. That was a developmental state and uh and can become that. So so the key is that it there's many doorways. And this is much of what I teach in these courses and in this kind of facilitator training program is what are the different learning styles for different people? What are the different obstacles? And what are the blocks to that keep us from letting go? And then what are the easier doorways? So there's, you know, there's different techniques and even languaging of these simple moves that can work more for kinesthetic learners, for auditory learners, visual learners. I have a visual pointer, auditory pointers, inner inner pointers, people who drop in their awareness in, and then people who open up and then come back. So, so there's some some sense that that what I discovered early is that it was natural and it was already here. And that's that's the thing that's different, as you were saying before. There's some development of skill and some development of ego function, which is okay, you got to sit for a while. Now you got, you know, notice. So a lot of the skill of I find of the insight meditation is is noticing what's in the way. So noticing, oh, what, how you get caught. Like, oh, the the oh, there's the, oh, that I'm trying to focus on my breath, but oh, then my mind wanders, where's it going to the past, to the future, to this, and then noticing, oh, well, that's a changing constellation of consciousness. That's not a self. And then where effortless mindfulness goes is like, okay, once you have the insight, oh, there isn't a solid self, and thought isn't the nature of knowing, then you see, and contents are a niche, are changing, coming and going. There isn't anything solid, then what is what is aware, and that's what effortless mind. Then they have the word, then they say, okay, well, let's what that's called is rigba or awake awareness. There's an awake awareness, a nature of mind that isn't thought-based, that's prior to thought. That's actually what you end up feeling thought is made of, and that thought is a tool, just like your hand, you can use it and put it down, you can use thought, put it down. And it is just like in a flow state, like in a goalie or in a in when you type, let's say, you don't, if I were to ask people, okay, can you name the middle row of of the keys? Okay, just name them. Ready? What are they? One, two, three, four, you know. You can't name them, but you put your hands on it and you can do it in a second because it's it's internalized. So you trust the functional and you shift into the higher mind, and then they get together, and then you're in flow, and then you're in this awake-loving flow. So that's the that's the thing that's similar, and they're just different doorways. The goalie doorway, the first pointer, he did a couple other pointers. Then I've been with other teachers who did other pointers. And I was always trying to figure out, probably kind of like you, like, all right, why did they do this and then this and then this? And how is this one, which got me there? What is the similar? What you know, just like your questions, like what is that principle that's the same, even though they're using this concept or this technique or this over here, or they're going through this door. What are we what are we letting go of? Then I say, not only what are we letting go of, but what lets go? And what is it letting go into? And then where am I aware from? And then what's the relationship to the relative changing contents? And so those inquiries, you know, and we can certainly try a couple of different doorways here, each one. Some work for some people, some don't. They're very short. It usually, you know, better to take a while and and get the basic and then do a glimpse, but I could do, you know, one or two glimpses here to that'd be great. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So so this one is a kind of inquiry, like I was saying. So the so the premise. So the interesting thing which I like is that it's this is not a religion, it's not even a philosophy you need to believe. The way I experience it and present it is this is a hypothesis that that has been useful as a set of premises that you can kind of suspend disbelief and try it and see if this is helpful as a model, but it's almost like a an you know, a certain kind of map that isn't literal as much as it is as you know, everything's kind of a mystery at that deepest level. So the premise is that the problem is that there's this small constellation of consciousness that self-references and creates this small sense of self that is feels limited and separate, feels like a small separate self. It's made of thought. You can kind of you don't often see it because you're looking from it and it's trying to help you. It's an ego function, but it thinks it's you, it thinks it's me. It's not even that you think it's it that's the problem. The problem is more that it thinks it's you and takes over. And so that, and it's a helpful function. So that problem solver when you are identified or attached, or in IFS they call it blended. So that's the first thing. There's something blended, there's something identified, there's something attached that we can step out of and recognize that which is not attached that can be aware of it. So that's in some ways a good definition of mindfulness, you know, that which has space and is aware and can be aware of what one moment ago was me as the subject is now the object from another dimension of consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

The subject is now the object, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:53

Yeah, and that's kind of you know the simple thing that when you look at your small self or you start to look at it, you go, Oh, that's just thoughts, feelings, sensations coming and going. There's nothing solid there. But a minute ago, I was starting to watch my breath. Even when you're watching your breath, you uh usually have a meditator point of view that has the flashlight as the subjects here. And then as soon as you go to mindfulness, you're like, oh, wait a minute. That one who was watching the breath, that's that's not that's not me. That's now part of, but it's also the key for for this is but it's part of me rather than some you know kind of extreme, like, oh, it's not me, there's no self, therefore it's an illusion. It's a delusion, but not an illusion. In other words, you think it's an attachment or identification. So that problem solver identity, what if it could relax? What then not the first level of mindfulness, deliberate mindfulness, is that which is looking back at contents, but effortless mindfulness begins. All right, but let's let this problem solver relax and be aware of that, but then let's be aware of what's aware. And as that awareness of awareness is really so the awareness that is aware of itself by itself as itself, and then also aware of contents, energy, form, space. But that move is a little bit of what is the premise that that is what's here effortlessly already always been aware, it just gets covered over. So so when I ask this inquiry, which is this so that's the premise or the hypothesis that this is what we're looking for and what's looking, and we'll go through this little series of inquiries. So the inquiries are start with words, but I'm asking you to look with awareness and not look to thought, but to look to awareness with awareness. Yeah. So that may not make sense at first, but just give it a try. It's kind of funny. It's like, I don't know how to do that. No, you do the the you that doesn't know how to do that actually doesn't know how to do that, but the awareness knows how to do it. So I'm talking to you, which this is the weirdest principle of this direct method as I see it, that because the first premise is everyone already has this awake consciousness within us equally. And so I'm asking you, the awake consciousness, to disidentify and know itself, know yourself as yourself, and then include the relative consciousness that was that you thought was the whole show, this battery of the body and energy and survival system and thoughts. Like that's part of it. We're not getting rid of that, but there's this huge dimension. So the the metaphor is as if we've been living in a storm cloud and then trying, feeling separate from all the other clouds and everything else around us, and trying to clean it up, right? Effortfully trying to fix things as best we can. And we, you know, it's a good thing to do, generally speaking, but you only can get so far. So this move is okay, can you have your awareness let go and step out to be aware of the sky? Can you rest as the sky? And can your awareness mingle with that space so that there's a sense of awareness that is even a little bit around your body? And then not stopping there as the awareness is aware of itself, but realize oh, the awareness is a little outside, but it's also equally inside, and it's also connected, so it's almost more like an ocean and wave of this more vast space, water, energy, and form, but not just form more space than anything, then energy, or light, then water and form. So this kind of dropping out of thinking into this awareness of thought, and then just feel what it's like to not go to thought, just as you don't have to go to hearing or smelling or tasting, because thinking is one of the six senses. And then what does it feel like to feel just take a little breath and let go? And just no big deal. Just let that kind of effortless ease and clarity, kind of an alertness that's not thought-based, but has a natural calm and connection. Yeah. So that's kind of a a little pointing series.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Thank you. That was really beautiful, helpful. Can you talk a little bit about these, like what is what is doing the glimpsing?

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

So is it uh, you know, is it awareness? Is it, you know, just a bar a Buddhist phrase? Is it the like just like part of our some might peep some people might call it heart, mind, or soul or something that kind of transfers between lives? Like, what is it that's doing the glimpsing? You know, I think it it may be helpful to distinguish that this may not be sort of this head-based, eye-based looking from the actual eyes, but rather maybe I'm just guessing more of an embodied, interconnected awareness of something. Can you talk about what's doing the glimpsing?

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, I mean, so this is the thing is you can do most of the preliminary practices of mindfulness with common phrases. You know, bring your attention to your breath, notice it at one point. When your attention or your mind wanders, notice that and bring it back to the to the breath. You know, so those are all like, okay, I kind of know all the pieces of the mindful exercise. You know, I know all the all the descriptions there. So here we're going to that's kind of why I start with some of the related research, like the research from this guy Chiksent Mahay, who did flow consciousness research, and found these qualities of no no ego, timeless now, connection, a sense of natural bliss or joy that from people doing all sorts of things, all sorts of doorways, not just extreme sports, but obviously, you know, people like musicians and stuff. But he studied, he found a big group was middle managers who really like their job, would get into flow, a relational flow. They'd be like, Yeah, sure, no, I can help you with that. I let me let me figure that out. We can do that, and everything will be good. And they just felt like, oh, here we are. We're a whole team and we're, you know, so so there's something that is invisible, is you can describe the the kind of essential qualities that come from it. But the harder thing is the invisible, unmeasurable dimension that we call awareness because it has qualities of of, you know, I mean, you know, in physics and astronomy, we talk about space, space, energy, matter. So this is more like space. So there's an invisible awareness that you can feel that's aware of a sensation. But you as soon as you're aware of it, you kind of create a me that's aware of it. But then what we're doing is like, well, is there a is there a location to it? Is there a is that a is that a solid thing? Is that a even a meditator or a point of view? Like, where is its boundary? If you look with awareness, a type of awareness that isn't attention, that isn't mindful awareness, that is this effortless awareness or this spacious, pervasive awareness. So that's the new experience. And most people can experience it, but then they go to their mind and go, like, well, yeah, no, I mean that's true, but what is that? You know, like I don't know what that is because I because words can't label it, because it's beyond words, it's prior to thought. So, but but when you experience this as I have, and you go into an fmri, you which I have, you you you're you're the the eight the part of the brain that that is chattering and calms down the default mode network and the task network balance out. And so there's results, and what I'm doing is recognizing the spacious awareness that's connected and arising as the aliveness, and I can feel that, and then it has an effect on my body, which is measurable, and certainly on my psychology, which is clear to me internally, but not seen. So, so this is the premise. But you know, as soon as you go into consciousness, certainly some people who have done psychedelics more understand because they've had some kind of, again, almost peak experience that then they know this isn't, we're not just meditating, just a little bit to just get my attention, is now aware of the contents, and I'm not judging. That, you know, you're staying still in this, but this requires letting go. And what lets go, it seems to me, and this is what the you know, Taoist and Tibetan and other wisdom traditions say is that the awareness, the the secret of the golden flower says, turn the light of awareness around. This is the secret to see the awareness. You know, you turn it around, you open it up, you don't look out from it, you look back and you realize, oh, there's nothing there, but you're looking at, you're almost releasing the point of view. And yet you're including all the including all the contents of your consciousness and even your physical body and the objects. But now 51% of the primary dimension is this invisible, unbound, but equally embodied. Awareness that is not based in thought is alert, and thought is just like is is like mental sensations. Because when you understand flow, you realize I can drive, I can talk, I can walk, I can, I can relate to people, and I don't have to create a thinker or a doer or you know, a mindful witness who's who's slowly, you know, watching myself be self-conscious. It's it's free, it's free flow. But but yeah, so I'm trying to mix it together to to make it not so weird. But there is this, it's called, you know, there are terms for it in Tibetan and other in Qigong, there's qi, which people know as energy, subtle energy, and then there's something called wuchi, which is awake awareness. In Advaita Vedanta, it's called Turiya, the fourth state, sleep is the first, waking consciousness, daydream or dream, and then pure awake awareness. In Tibetan Buddhism, it's called sem is called thought-based mind. SEM is is the mind of it's the brain, mind, thought, and rigpa is the awareness that is effortlessly here as the nature of mind. So they're not even dealing with no self or self. They're like, once you get beyond self, now you have to deal with, you're not even worried about self. You're worried about, you're like, well, how am I functioning or what knows or what's aware? And so this awareness is aware. And so it's almost kind of trying to, what I've been doing, how do you bring this into cultural language through, you know, experience and simple languaging, but then repetitive ability to return, and then taking it off the cushion into dealing with both internal world of psychology and people who have trauma and get triggered? How do you deal with getting triggered back to a protective states? And then how do you open and include that? And then how do you talk and walk as if you're in this flow and you're operating from this level of mind? So that that is the big thing, is there is this rigpa, awake, what I call a wake-aware mind, that then becomes what's called same taste, which is awake awareness is non-dual, is none other than arising as form is emptiness, emptiness is form, is the same taste. So they're the same. And then there's this bodhicitta or heart mind that is based in you know, awareness. It isn't, it isn't a quality of the of the human physical form. It's it's consciousness. And but I don't, I don't really follow, I'm not that interested in any kind of philosophy or or or any metaphysics at all. I'm like, that's about I go, it works, it's good, I know how to do it. And well, what is it? Is it mean there's a next line? It's like, don't know. I don't know. If I don't know, I don't know. And I don't I think that's where a lot of that's where it creates a theology or religion or a cult or uh is trying to make this leap, which is unnecessary because it's you it's it's a full human being.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Yeah, yeah, very, very rooted. When sharing these practices, you you mentioned that you know different people have different kinds of barriers to say surrendering to this or accessing this. And I'm curious if the barriers relate to that quote that I mentioned earlier around the fears of death, fears of life, fears of love. Would it be fair to categorize fears into those three categories? And are those the same things as what you're referring to as the barriers? Can you talk a little bit about how to help people release barriers and what those barriers are?

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah. I mean, so everyone has everyone has constitution. If you have any sensitivity, you're going to have fears and pleasant and unpleasant experiences, and then likes and dislikes, as we know from from insight meditation. And but putting it together with with this particular kind of contemporary psychology is what helped most to kind of bridge the gap between ego, I'm an ego, and I'm no self, and I'm ego, no-self. So this, you know, there's these part parts-based psychologies. So there's Gestalt and psychosynthesis, and you know, even Jungian. But the one that is very contemporary and I've been, you know, doing some work with quite a bit is called internal family systems. And so the basic premise is that you're gonna have a fearful part, an anxious part, you know, a denial part. So even the five hindrances, the doubting, you know, like the hindrance is doubt. Well, from this point of view, it's like, oh, there's a doubting, yeah, there's a doubting part has just come up. So are you blended with it? Then doubt is a problem. If you blend from this part that's doubting, can you now be aware that a part of you is doubting? Yeah. Well, who's this that's aware of the doubter? Does that have doubt? No, that doesn't have doubt. But is this still here? Yeah, that's here. So it literally allows for, you know, you could talk a little about, I don't want to get into klashas and skandas and, you know, just patterns of formations, basically. It they're formations of the human consciousness, but it when you get this particular with it, and it it really has psychological help to it, because you're able then not to be this one person who feels bad because you have fear or anger or terror, or you know, it's like, oh, there's a part of me that has terror. It's a part of me that has rage. Okay, can you am I blended with it? Then I'm like, and then it's like, okay, can I be aware of a part of me? Yes, where is it? Right here. Okay, can you ask that for some space? So then you do a mindful move or what IFS calls unblending. So here again, here we are back at this kind of first moves of think of consciousness, mindfulness in general. So the mindful move is disidentifying, stepping back, blending, turning around, and then being aware from a different dimension of consciousness that what was the subject, I'm afraid. Then so I do this series where you go through, I am afraid, and then you say, I'll do it very quickly, but I I am afraid, then I feel fear, then I am aware of feeling fear, then I'm aware of a part of me that feels fear, then I'm aware that there are other parts that don't feel fear, then I'm aware of a dimension that is aware of all these parts, and then as this spacious pervasive dimension, fear is welcome. Fear is not other. Fear and awareness are not two compassionate, loving awareness toward a part of me that's afraid. So, I mean, I obviously this that was the but going through that and letting everyone feel that move, you kind of step, you keep stepping back, and then you step back in. In some ways, that's really the two moves of effortless mindfulness. The first one is turning and looking back through the meditator. So mindfulness, even when you get to choiceless awareness or open awareness, you're still the witness. You're bigger, but you're still looking this way. So the first move is okay, open awareness of thoughts, feelings, sensations. Okay, well, wait a minute. Let's be aware of the open awareness. So turning around, opening that up, and then importantly, coming back, resting as that, and then including or welcoming sensation, thought, feeling not as observable, other as in the first stage of insight meditation where things come and go, but literally as same, same taste. You so you know, you know your breath from within your breath. So that's one of the meditations I do. So you start by being aware of the breath, you unhook awareness, drop it down to your belly, and now feel your breath from within your breath, and now feel your breath from the room where the breath is going out, and simultaneously from within. So you're basically trying to disdecenter from this small seat of the small self, which tends to most people sit here, although some people are more emotional, so they can have a seat like here, or they can have a seat in their belly more if they have certain, but you're kind of dropping or stepping out as the mindful move. But then the question becomes do you if you step out, do you remain this mindful witness of lifting, moving, eating, you know, or do you turn, open up, find that which is spacious and pervasive and not other, and then feel like you're enjoying from this flow of awake consciousness, which is not to, it's not other, it's not observing, it's not contracted, but it's not detached, it's it's inter interconnected. You know, that word in you know, the even the no-self of in insight meditation vipassana is there's there's no separate self, everything's interdependent. So there's no thing that's separate. There's no such thing as a tree. It doesn't mean it's it's it's there's no tree. It means there's no tree because a tree can't be a tree without water, air, sun, earth. So it's no separate self, it's interdependent, which is like interconnected. That's the reality, not no self, not illusion. I mean, on one level, everything comes and goes. So, but that's true, you know, about you know, all, you know, all over time. But that that's what they're saying is that there's an interdependence, a non-dual presence of when you're not looking from a separate self, then you feel this kind of awake, effortless mindfulness. Then you're effortlessly mindful. So then mindful becomes connection. So then you feel like when you're looking at an object, you're the object and you are arising in the same field, and you're looking from this mind, which can look at the the moving mind, but you're no longer looking from the moving mind, but you're not looking from a detached witness, you're looking from this interconnected awake mind. So this mind can have, you can have, you know, I have with ADHD students, their ADHD mind is moving and they're completely able to focus because this is just like sensations in their foot, because that's not the mind they're using. They're looking from their awake mind, which is awareness-based, and they can focus on an object for two hours without their mind wandering, without their nature of mind wandering, their little minds wandering all the time. It's just part of the brain system is always the default mode, the task mode are always operating, they're going into. So, but it's upgrading to this flow consciousness that is a human potential. It's it it's it's possible and it makes such a difference. And then you can work with these parts that the first level of the parts I was talking about was the, you know, kind of the what's called the managers, you know, the ones who think they're me. And then what's called the exiles or the shadow parts can come up, the ones, you know, because everyone has had what's called everyday trauma, just a living like a human being. There's some parts that have been repressed or in the shadow that feel hurt, or whether you call them inner children, or parts that are kept to keep all the energy of our body and kind of sneak up when they get triggered and get all upset and then get pushed down. So they can now come up to this new awake capacity and be recognized to be heard and to be included and to be healed and unburdened is the word they use in IFS. You unburden them from the sense that they think they're you. They think, oh, I'm worthless, I'm no good. They have this I statement. And they, oh, okay, I'm with you. You hear, oh, but I'm worthless. And like, oh, I'm here. Nobody listens to me. Nobody wants to be with me. I'm with you, I'm here. It's okay. All right, well, you want to go play? Yeah, okay. So there's a there's a year of therapy in one one minute.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Well, speaking of, you know, years of something in one minute, it feels like these teachings that you're sharing, this wisdom that you're sharing, is almost like a shortcut to understanding the mind or what the mind is. You know, I feel like what you're describing is mindfulness in the sense that we are, you know, a lot of people I think relate to mindfulness with the sense that it's brainfulness.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

And, you know, and they're identified with, you know, their subject, like who they are, who they think they are, and they're, you know, relating to their breath from their head, or relating to their body from their brain, and you know, not really accessing their full quote-unquote mind. And you know, Joseph Goldstein has the wonderful kind of like famous quote now about, you know, what's the purpose of meditation, what's the purpose of mindfulness meditation? And he talks about just well, just understanding the mind. It's not about like getting anywhere per se, it's about understanding what's happening, understanding the mind, understanding this experience more and more. I feel like what you're sharing is a glimpse or a way of being able to access this understanding of the mind from the mind rather than a limited sense of self. And I'm hesitant to use the word shortcut because it has connotations of skipping over things or bypassing or that other practices may be unnecessary. So I'm curious how you relate to what you're sharing. I I think everything you shared, I really resonate it with, and I feel like it's really invaluable for us to all be able to access that. And I loved how you said that you're talking to you awareness rather than talking to you limited sense of self, that like you're it felt like you were teaching from a place of effortless mindfulness or spacious pervasive awareness, speaking to our spacious pervasive awareness. I I loved how you phrase that. I'm talking to you, you know, interconnected being. But I'm curious, like, is this kind of a shortcut to this understanding of the mind?

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I mean, yeah, it's a it's a direct practice, and in some ways, it's just going a different way, is is the so, and it has a different set of definitions and and and hypotheses that that it isn't, you know, one of them is that you're you aren't developing a skill like playing on the piano. You're not trying to cultivate your attention or your mind, that your the the mind, the nature of mind that is we're using mind for two different minds, is already here. The awake nature doesn't have to be created or developed, it's already here now. There's small glimpses many times, is the practice. So you recognize and you realize, then you lose it, then you learn to return, then you kind of train to remain. So the training is is in requires the including. So there's always awakeness and there's always unfolding. So it's not shortcut to enlightenment, but it is direct path to the that which can bear what seems to be unbearable. So even when Joseph says, I mean, I I think, you know, I would I've talked to him before at Dzogshen, he comes to Dzogshen retreats and things. And I had kind of a discussion similar to this, but I don't want to, but I think what he means, and you can correct me, is understanding the mind means understanding that mind which is the five hindrances and the mind that comes and goes, and the mind that has pleasant, unpleasant, the you know, the the relative relative mind and the and the the nature of the dependent origination mind. And so that is the first step, but then it it's what makes you know a non-dual meditation from starting with Ma mudra, which is you know a um Mahayana tradition, is there's another mind that you're not just watching the mind, getting to know the mind from a mindful awareness, because that's the first step. You want to know what the hindrance is or what the has the usual patterns are that have been operating, that's important insight, but then you want an insight into what is the mind that's free of all that, that where there is no pain, there is no fear. And then, as that mind, which is prior to thought, what's it like when they mix and you remain primary? Because you immediately, so you immediately can see there's no self. You don't have to spend time constant during concentration to do mindfulness to see that everything's changing. You just go to this awareness, and now you go like, well, just to ask somebody off the street, well, are you the small self? What what are you talking about? Like, what's small self? Oh, that's no, of course I'm not that. Well, where how can you say that? Is that a philosophical belief? No, because this awareness that that that was another way of seeing that I I'm no longer there, I'm here. So it it's showing, it's going to so what they say is the goal is the path. So it's it's the you go to the solution and then you come back to the problems because you can't heal the problem if you don't have the solution. So Einstein said, you know, the that you can't solve the problem on the level it was created. So you can't just know the the problem. You can't just know the problem line. I know the problem, I know the problem. In fact, I do a little, I'll do one little quick glimpse here. So that problem solver that is looking and can know. So here's the inquiry. So what if that was a part of you and could relax? So what's here now if there were just now no problem to solve? So if there was no job just for now, the problem solver could rest back. What's this that's already here and alert? And then are you aware of this awareness? Or what's it like to rest as this? And then resting as this, what's the relationship as this invisible spacious awareness to vibration, sensation, feelings, thoughts, your body and the room?

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Can you phrase that last part again in terms of is it connecting with it, sensing it?

SPEAKER_01 56:47

I mean, this is again, this is probably the second, these are the two main shifts that or or experiential premises that you can't understand and logically from don't make sense. So the two the two, but but when you experience it, it shows up in the fmri and it gives you these results. There is this awareness that feels like it's not just in the body. Yeah, it's spacious and it it's knowing without thought. Well, how could you know? What knowing is is defined by I think therefore I am, you know, like it's not only it's identity and let alone knowing, but it it's it's just alertness. You're just alert. You don't even, you're not labeling, there's no labeling, you're not doing labeling or or it's just pure alert awareness. And the second is there's some same, what's called this next move, which is so important in a lot of the neo-Advaita non-dual people stay in this pure awareness, and they say, Oh, I am the I now recognize I'm not the self, I am just this pure awareness, and everything else is a movie. It's just, you know, it's not real. There's the only thing real is this pure awareness. So this Mahamudra Zogshan non-duality is that there's two truths, and they're they're not two, that there's ultimate and relative are not two. So when you recognize this nature mind as awareness, there's some, if you stay there, you start to feel, okay, is the first vibration, sensation, thought, movement, is it a thing coming into and moving through the sky like a bird? Or is it like made of it? Is it like the ocean? So if you're the ocean of awareness and now you get it something moving, you're like, oh, look at that thing moving. Oh, wait a minute, it's made of itself. It's not two. So that feeling is the is the is the key, is the second key. The first key is the pure awareness. And the second key is that it's it's one taste, or it's called non-dual presence. It's called the inseparable pair of awareness and aliveness, it's called the the the unity of emptiness and bliss. Like this, these are the you know, whether you want to use unity or non-duality, same taste, that that's that's what that means. On that subtlest level of the first movement, it's not an observer watching things move through the sky. It's ocean and wave. It's ocean. You're the ocean, and everything that's coming into form and dissolving back into formlessness is it's not a it's not a second thing. It's just active. It's an active dimension of consciousness, of you know, this kind of consciousness. I mean, consciousness and awareness and mind are keep being used in strange different ways, but that's the feeling. And that's that's the that's the beauty of of that's the bliss. That's and bliss is you know, it's a different kind of bliss. It's a it's kind of a subtle, you know, this kind of relief and this, and it is non fear. It's like, oh, everything's made of. The same thing. So ultimately, nothing can hurt anything and nothing dies. Okay. Oh, I get it. So there now we're back to the the you know, the awakening out of the fear of death. And then the waking in is this is the same taste. You wake into your body, and then you're like, oh, look at all these things. There's pleasant and unpleasant feelings, and like things are working out and they're not working out. Wow, that's wild. You know, let's let's go see what the day brings. And you know, like this is quite a ride here, but it's it's not like you're denying kind of you know, some kind of like, would you like some tea? All tea is the same, there's no difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

You don't become like a robot, yeah, or disconnected. Do you have time for one or two more questions? Yeah, thank you. This is really great. Well, speaking of wild rides in this life, you mentioned how the these practices of these glimpses, these mindful glimpses are did you say they're brief but often?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

Or they're yeah, small glimpses repeated regularly.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Thank you. So these small glimpses repeated regularly help us to you know access this way of being more and more, and you know, relate to this non-dual existence more clearly, more often. And I think correct me if I'm wrong, somewhere I I think I read that you may have deepened your practice of this in a time when you were experiencing some grief.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

I'm curious about this relationship or your perspective of experiencing strong emotions like grief, which a lot of us carry regularly throughout our life. And you know, some people may talk about grief as an expression of love, and some may say attached love, or say a false belief that something actually does die, or that we're actually losing something or disconnecting from something. So I'm just curious about your perspective on say grief and strong emotion in relationship with these this way of being that we're cultivating or that we're accessing more and more. Can you talk about that relationship?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think grief is it connects those three things, like the fear of death, the fear of life, and the fear of love. It's like it runs the gamut there. It's, you know, the most, you probably shouldn't even say human, but animal, because elephants grieve, you know. So it's the tenderizing emotion that it it almost requires the the capacity, I often often say this this line of find that which can bear the unbearable. So that that is pointing to the awake awareness that is not other than this life that has pleasure and pain and grief is that. So yeah, I mean, I have a number of stories about that. One one of the first ones is is that what really, in some ways, before I went to graduate school, when I was in college, my father passed away. He had cancer, brain cancer. When I was 19, he died. So when I was 18, he had found out a cancer, and then he had brain surgery, and he was recovering. And I came home at the holiday and he was like showing me his workbooks because he had it was his left brain and he had gone back to a kindergarten level. And he's like, Look what I did, you know. And he was like coming, my girlfriend, he had been kind of more of an engineer-type reserved guy of that generation. And so my girlfriend, he'd be like, Hey, Angela, yeah, yeah. And so he'd be he'd like changed, and then sadly he passed away, he had recurrence in a blood clot and died. And so I went back for my sophomore year at college, and you know, my friends would say, Oh, so sorry, let's go have a beer, you know, like you know, it was just like that's because they didn't have that experience. So it was hard to find anyone to talk to. So and I tried to go to the the young the the Freudian counselor there, and like after three sessions of him just taking notes, it was like, all right, that's not working. So so I'm holding all this and you know, feeling it. My girlfriend live is not around. I talked to her on the phone, but so it's a winter day, and I come out of the library and I'm feeling, and all of a sudden it's like I hear this inner voice. I don't know if you can take this much longer. And what I did is I I kind of looked up as if it was a voice. But what happened is my awareness kind of went out. And then all of a sudden I looked up and I saw this beautiful night sky of a winter sky. I was like, and my awareness just opened up into this feeling of like, oh, and then it felt like like there was this unburdening and this feeling of connection to everything. And I just started crying and then kind of laughing and crying and and just you know, just started to feel like I'd been holding it all in and trying to deal with it on my own, let it go. And then I was it just something greater than me was just relieved this feeling. And then I was just, you know, if anyone would start to talk about, oh I'm sorry to hear my father, I'd be, I'd just start to cry a little bit. Yeah, I know it's really been, you know, but kind of there's really sweet. I have these memories of, and all of a sudden they would connect, like, oh yeah, my dog died when I was a kid. Oh my God, yeah, I know what you mean. And all of a sudden, grief became like a connector for like, oh yeah, that's right. Well, yeah, I mean, I know what you mean. I didn't, I was gonna get into the summer job and I'm so upset about it, but I'm really just I'm not, I was angry, but I'm really sad, you know. Like, you know, all of a sudden it was like a connection to something greater that allowed it to be part of my life. And then I I just had long COVID for two years that was pretty bad. And it it it was it was just a way to kind of be with a body that wasn't functioning well. My nerves wouldn't fire and my legs wouldn't fire, and there was just like a I couldn't go and do uh things with people. So it was kind of a everyday grief. But I kind of found a way within this awareness to kind of let myself do some inner work of working with these early parts, almost like pre-verbal parts of me that I had more time in meditation and in kind of doing sessions with IFS therapists to to find some grief that was buried from early on and was was, you know, kind of shutting me down and allowed me to realize that it's it's just it's just the most healing feeling to face that grief, which feels like it's you know, there's no hope and it will overwhelm, and there's no, you know, loss means loss of everything. And I can't, I can't handle it. The I can't handle it, but this awake consciousness, once it lets what I called, so I did the what I called shake and bake. So I'd start to kind of almost, you know, shake when I was with my wife and talking, she'd she'd be like, okay, shake and bake time. Okay, go ahead. I'd start kind of just letting everything move through. But it became almost, you know, like part of my life that was like, okay, this is good. I like, I like doing this grieving thing because it's it just allows the full human experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Yeah. Well, I love your wisdom on including and accepting our human experience. We're not trying to push it away or resist it or disconnect from it or saying that it's not here or that it's not real in some ways. Yeah, it feels very warm and true in my perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:53

So I think some of the, you know, some of the, you know, the first stages of Buddhism, which is, you know, to kind of focus in and detach and almost to see that things are coming and going, can keep us in our heads. So it is coming back, you know, and you just can't just say, oh, well, just embodied mindfulness and just be mindful of the body, because you're still out being mindful of the body. So even the body scan that I do, I scan, I don't scan from outside, I scan like like go inside into your body, feel your body from within. And yeah, and that potential, I think, for for many people in our culture and those who didn't have an emotional education or were, you know, even my sports culture of that I found a doorway in, you know, most of my other sports culture of, you know, being yelled at, and, you know, you know, you know, no crying in baseball, you know, you know, like all that, it just kind of like, okay, you know, act in a certain way, be mature. And it it's really like to be fully human from this awake consciousness. But that's the thing, is that if that's this is what gives the the capacity and it supports it too, to really bring it all together.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

Yeah. You know, for a long time I was very identified with the subject of being a meditator or being this, you know, person named Sean Fargo, who's from, you know, Bakersfield, California, who likes the Dodgers and has done this and doesn't like that and won't eat mushrooms and things like this. And, you know, I think a lot of people are identified with being themselves or being a meditator. And then, you know, as we want to share these practices with others, you know, there's this tempting identity of being a teacher or facilitator. It's like, okay, well, now I'm practicing this awareness from this filter lens of, you know, someone who teaches this or someone who knows this or someone who can, you know, talk about this in from this angle of being a competent person around this. And and then there's, you know, a lot of people who struggle with imposter syndrome around being a practitioner, imposter syndrome around being a facilitator or a guide, you know, and there's so many identities that we can get caught up in. And uh one time I heard of a a practice that perhaps is in you know Tibetan Buddhism or Mahayana, but it I heard it in the context of Native American practice of the seven directions meditation, which we're sensing into the space in front of us, to the right, to the back of us, to the left, above us, below us, and then internally. And was sharing this with I only shared it maybe 10 times in different contexts, and it would usually get the most positive reaction or some of the most positive response from people who had never considered sensing into these different directions, and you know, and then kind of blending it all together, like just sensing it all together, you know, all directions at once. And, you know, people would say, Oh my goodness, my whole being is just uh vibing, it's it's shaking, it's feeling a very risk visceral energy right now, or or I I feel the most embodied I've ever felt, and or or I feel the least burdened I've ever felt, to borrow your your language. And yeah, I think I think this is all to say that I think that you know, the pasanas, beautiful practice, the four foundations of mindfulness, beautiful framework, eightfold path, you know, very helpful, you know, integrated daily, evidence-based, secular mindfulness, wonderful. And I feel like a lot of what you're sharing today, I think there's a lot of benefit to incorporate this into how we talk about mindfulness and how we practice mindfulness and what is mindfulness. I feel like you described mindfulness in a way that most people don't describe mindfulness. And I feel like so many people could benefit from this.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:24

I'm so glad. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. That that is that there's a Native American front of you, left of you, above you, below you, behind you. There's also an Irish prayer. May God be in front of you, behind you, to the left of you, the right of you, below you, above you, all around you and within you. But it's also what people are experiencing is that movement of awareness that is going out in front, out to the right, out to the left, out above. And the key one is behind. So one of the key moves is dropping your awareness and letting your awareness feel the awareness that has your back, and then feel that that awareness arises like an ocean as your body and connects to everyone. And that's where I often will say, we'll do that, and then say, loving-kindness, may all beings be well and happy. But you almost feel the support that everyone has this awareness behind them, within them, and then you connect to them and feel that there's a this kind of loving-kindness that goes. Yeah. But it's that breaking of the of the center that is there's also a practice called skygazing that's similar in Tibetan Buddhism, where you sit on a mountain and you're aware of the space within, the space in front of you, which is vast because you're sitting on a mountain, then you say, like, oh, there's space in front of you, but isn't there also space, the same space behind you? Can you feel that and the space then within you that connects you to the space in front, above, below, behind? And what you're doing is you're pointing out awake space, not just physical space. So you're you're you're connecting to this dimension of mind that isn't so tight and scared and separate.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

Reminds me of, yeah, like a practice that I've been on retreat with Joseph and Jack Cornfield. And sometimes they'll do a guided meditation. I think some people call it different names, but like boundless sky, limitless sky. And sometimes they'll ring a Tibetan bell or some make some sound and at random points, and it's this very spacious awareness, and you know, sensing it throughout the body, around the body. And I remember asking a very senior teacher who I shall re remain nameless, but I asked them, you know, I'd love to learn how to how to offer that to others. And he said, no, like you have to be a practitioner of that and and a teacher for at least 10 years. And I remember feeling confused by that. And I and it kind of helped, and it for better or for worse, it led me to create my website, mindfulness exercises.com, to help share some of these practices with others and encourage people to consider facilitating these things.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:16

But uh Yeah, I mean that's a topic, you know, the you know, I feel, you know, like the foundations, like you were saying, the eightfold path is absolutely key. The tradition, the appreciation of teachers, lineage, and yet every lineage, you know, created another lineage, created another lineage, went from, you know, India to Tibet to Japan to China to, you know, and then within each of those traditions, there's the kagu and the karma kyagu and the, you know, and it's like, okay, so there's variation on this stuff. And there the guy who said you can't, you can't teach it, you have to teach it within our tradition. He was like, I basically have it, but you're teaching it in one way, and yeah, you're like, I'll teach it another way. So there's some democratic, I consider it kind of democratic open source. So I feel like, what is more valuable to share than what, and as long as I I share to the level that I've experienced it? That's my thing. If I've experienced it and I'm benefit and I've checked it out and it's safe, and it's working, and then I see others benefit and have value. Now I can feel and it's in alignment, and I check it out, and I've, you know, got positive feedback from teachers that it's true and it's works and it's real and it's what. And then, you know, there can be this religious hierarchy, which happens in all groups. It's not even doesn't even have to be a cult. It just happens in cults. But this is like even the nature of religious formation, is only the priesthood can teach it, you know. So, well, what about the ones who are, you know, more natural and are or have a different constitution or uh style. So, you know, that's that's part of what you mentioned, Adiashanti kind of came from Zen, and he he says he woke up from Zen, you know, so which is very Zen because yeah, so so he was he and I connected early on, and he said, you know, you want to join me in this. So he invited me to teach in his Sangha, Open Gate Sangha Lineage, which was basically saying, you you know, teach, help people out and don't hurt anyone, you know, like and and that's the thing. There's groups of people that are trying to help people and are authentic and are not caught up with trying to do it for the things that get others, others in our profession who act out in ways that's like that's not me. You know, that and and Ady Ashanti said to me, he said, you know, the one thing I'll say to you is like, if you ever get involved with any of that stuff, like you know, sex and money and drugs and power and abuse and stuff like that, just walk away. Just give up, just don't be a teacher anymore. Otherwise, you know, but that's the thing. It's like, you know, I come from social work as a profession, and we have ethics, and we're serving humanity to try to reduce suffering. So there's nothing more valuable to me than helping people not only with consciousness, but then how to work with that healing potential with the inner world, and then obviously take it out to kindness and to setting boundaries and to speaking up and to, you know, many people of my sangha do, you know, work in their communities in different ways. Uh so I think it's a time to share it and to help people get this, you know, most valuable mindful exercise to use a phrase.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

Right. Yeah. Look, Kelly, thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today. You know, you talked about how this, you know, feeling of support on the back is super helpful. That that, you know, the universe, love, our benefactors, this loving awareness always has our back. And thank you for having our back and sharing all of this. I encourage everyone who's listening and watching to go to Locke's website at lockkelly.org. That's L-O-C-H-K-E-L-L-Y dot or G. Please check out his books, his podcast, effortless mindfulness with Locke Kelly, his teacher trainings, effortless mindfulness training cycle. He has programs on effortless mindfulness and internal family systems. He has a newsletter. Uh, please connect with Locke Kelly in whatever way you'd like. Locke, once again, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to be listening to this again and practicing this. And so ever for everyone listening, we'll put links to all these things in the show notes. So please check out the links below.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:11

And I can give everyone 20% off of my app. We'll include a link for your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

Wonderful. Thank you. We will put that custom link in the show notes. And yeah, I'm gonna check out the app myself actually, because the the practices that you shared today were very, they felt very lucid, very helpful. And I like the idea of them being these, you know, glimpses that we do often. So it's nice to have the guidance uh right there on your phone. So Locke, thank you so much for everything that you're doing for the world and for your students. And I look forward to reconnecting again.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Thanks so much, Sean. Such a delight to be with you, and your kindness comes through very clearly and appreciate our time together.