Mindfulness, Integrity, And Joy With James Baraz

What if the most important moment in meditation is not the breath you follow, but the instant you notice you’ve wandered—and choose to return with love? James Baraz joins us to unpack that gentle pivot, showing how a kind return trains patience, forgiveness, and steadiness in daily life. 

James Baraz's website: https://www.awakeningjoy.info/

We walk through practical instruction, the value of real silence, and how to read the room so guidance supports rather than crowds out insight.

James traces his journey from early retreats with Joseph Goldstein and time with Ram Dass to taking the teacher’s seat with humility. He shares two deceptively simple rules that shaped his path—say “I don’t know” when you don’t, and don’t fear looking foolish—and how they dissolve both imposter syndrome and inflated self-image. From there, we get tactical about secular teaching: speak in people’s own idiom, avoid trigger words without diluting meaning, and anchor practice in ethics. Integrity isn’t optional; it’s the foundation that actually calms the mind and builds trust.

We broaden the lens to social impact—climate, inequity, and the race between fear and consciousness. Mindfulness is a gateway, not a finish line. When we embody calm and care, classrooms quiet, teams soften, and communities shift. James offers an intention practice to fuel purpose, plus a reminder that transformation is real: we can rewire toward generosity, clarity, and compassion. There will be sorrow and beauty; keep turning toward the light, and let your light help others see.

If this conversation sparks something in you, share it with a friend who teaches, subscribe for more grounded practice tools, and leave a review to help others find the show. What intention will guide your next step?

Chapters

• 1:43 Welcoming James Baraz
• 6:56 Intention For A Joyful Session
• 7:26 Foundations Of Mindfulness
• 8:26 The Puppy Mind Metaphor
• 15:05 Guided Meditation Begins
• 32:26 Debrief And Teaching Style
• 41:17 Becoming A Teacher
• 55:49 Early Retreats And Mentors
• 1:05:56 Taking The Teacher’s Seat
• 1:11:00 Secular Language And Ethics
• 1:23:35 Mindfulness And Social Change

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:50

Welcome everybody. Hope everyone's well. Today I'm I'm honored to welcome uh James Barris here, who's joining us from North Berkeley, California, which happens to be just a few streets away from where I live too. James is one of my favorite mindfulness meditation teachers on the planet. He brings a smile to my face every time I think of him. But uh James has been around the block as a teacher of mindfulness and meditation. He has been a teacher of meditation since 1978, which is almost as long as I've been alive. He's a creator and a teacher of the Awakening Joy course, which has been around for about more than 15 years. The Awakening Joy course, you can take it online and as well as in person if you're in Northern California. But he leads retreats and workshops and classes all around the world. He's a co-founder of Spirit Rock Meditation Center, which many of you are very familiar with. But uh James is a co-founder of it along with Jack Cornfield and others. He wrote the book called Awakening Joy. He's a guiding teacher for One Earth Sangha, which is a website and a community devoted to expressing a mindful Buddhist response to climate change. And he's just a very great teacher who I highly recommend. So I remember my first time listening to James. I was a monastic at a monastery, and I was walking what's called a loop trail at a Bayagiri monastery, listening to various Dharma talks that I would download online. And I just found this random talk from James one day. But I just remember vividly walking around this trail, listening to a talk from James. And I just remember thinking like he just sounds like such a kind man, and there was just so much of like a personal connection there that I felt you could tell that there was a lot of depth. Almost kind of had this to me, it sounded like yeah, like a father or grandfather figure, someone who had deep perspective, deep care, no judgment, but a lot of wisdom. And it never occurred to me that I might meet be able to meet him one day, and I'm very glad that I did, and just feel very uh connected to James on a few different levels. But my wife and I had the honor of him uh presiding over our wedding a few years ago, which is you know one of the best days of my life, and so I wanted to thank you again, James, for facilitating that. But so it's a deep honor to welcome James Bear. He's one of my first excited to introduce him to those of you who haven't been exposed to him yet. And so without further ado, I'd like to welcome you, James, to Mastermind.

SPEAKER_03: 3:58

Thanks, Sean. Lovely to be here with you and everyone on the call. Maybe I'll just reciprocate or respond and just say I'm a big Sean Fargo fan. He's a good guy. That for me, that's that's probably as important as anything else. He's somebody that I respect, trust, have great affection for, and really inspired by what he's offering to others, really just wanting to help the consciousness movement grow with high integrity and a generous heart. And I remember Sean when he was at Spirit Rock in the when we still had the trailers and and he was in the front office answering phone calls and being there for people. And I thought, oh, what a great gatekeeper we have. Because the person who answers the phone calls and coordinates events, helps coordinate and and welcome people there, is probably one of the most important people in my mind because he's there who people interface with. And so it's just a real pleasure. And as he said, I officiated his wedding and Casey. And I love doing weddings, it's just a celebration of love. And so, in general, it's a it's a joy, but it was a particularly very beautiful occasion that I could uh impart my love and and blessing to your marriage. So and it's great to be here with everyone, with you and everyone. Let's explore consciousness, mindfulness, and sharing this with others. So looking to have have a good time, as I said to Sean just a moment before we we started. Looking, I I think this is gonna be fun, hopefully helpful, useful, but just let's make it an enjoyable experience for all. So that's my intention.

SPEAKER_01: 5:52

Thank you, James. Really appreciate that. Would you like to start by uh leading us in a guided meditation?

SPEAKER_03: 5:59

Yeah, sure. And since you are becoming teachers of mindfulness, I thought that maybe I'd offer you the way I share mindfulness instructions and we can sit together. So whatever is useful for you, I know you're probably many of you have a strong mindfulness practice, but I'll share as if we're all doing it together for whether or not the first time, just as reminders, and we can sit for what would you say, 10, 15 minutes, or how long would you say, Sean?

SPEAKER_01: 6:33

Yeah, that sounds that sounds good.

SPEAKER_03: 6:35

Okay. So the essence of mindfulness, probably not news to you, is to just be present for your life. I teach workshops in lots of different places and down at Esselin for many years, and the the name of the workshop is being present for your life. Why not? You're you you might as well not miss it while it's here, but it takes practice to to be present. And so it's simply knowing what's happening without adding on your judgments about what you'd like to happen or or change, but just seeing your present experience opening to it with kindness, with interest, and with ease, relaxation. And so we start with just the basic experience of knowing that you're sitting here and breathing. For some people, breathing the breath isn't the the home base that works best for them. Some people, whether it's because of past experience or difficulties in breathing or trauma or other things, for some people, an alternative might be better, whether it's just knowing that you're sitting here or feeling sensations as they move through your body. So please use that as an alternative if you'd like. I'll just give the basic instructions with the breath as your home base, but it's not just about being a good breath watcher. I remember many years ago when one teacher said, if it's just about watching your breath well, she called that kind of a funny name, a transcendental lobotomy. Oh, yes, I'm a good breath watcher, but it's about using the breath as a way to sharpen, to come into the moment and be present and collecting, composing your attention on whatever the home base is as a way to sharpen your awareness. But then the idea is to apply it to any aspect of your experience in the sitting meditation, whether it's hearing a sound and knowing you're hearing, or feeling a sensation and knowing that's happening, or being with an emotion that arises, and really being there, whether it's pleasant or unpleasant, to know what's happening, and with thoughts as well, that they too are part of experience, except it's a whole lot trickier to know that you're thinking without getting caught up in the content of the thought. So it's one thing to know, oh, thinking is happening, and it's another to be lost in the story of your high school prom or what are you going to do with your life or whatever is going on, but to simply know, oh, thinking is happening. In a few moments when we do the meditation, the the key moment besides being here on whatever is happening, the breath or whatever is arising, I think I consider the key moment in the practice the moment that you realize you've been lost in thought. Because I say to people, if your mind doesn't wander, please speak to me afterwards. I'm curious what's going on in there. But for most people, the mind wanders. It's nothing to take personally, it's nothing to feel discouraged about, thinking you're doing something wrong. It's just exploring the nature of the mind. And so when you realize that the mind is wandered, the key is how do you respond to that? The common response that most people have is some kind of frustration. Oh darn, there I am wondering. Let's get back here and do this right. And you can feel in that the judgment, the discouragement, the frustration, the agitation of mind. And what you're doing is cultivating judgment, frustration, discouragement, and agitation with a little bit of awareness thrown in. Not the recommended response. Another very common response when you realize, oh, I've been lost in thought, is having the response of, oh, but this is a very interesting thought. Let me just go with this for a little while. And when you've done that, it's like you've bitten the bait and you're gone. If you're lucky just for a few seconds, more commonly, likely for minutes or however long. So again, not recommended. It takes some resolve to not get hooked by your thoughts, whether they're pleasant or unpleasant, either way. The recommended response, I feel, when you realize you've been thinking, rather than frustration or discouragement, to appreciate that you've just come back into the present moment. That's what you're trying to do. Oh, I'm here again. Right. And feel good about the fact that you just woke up and then let the return be done with great kindness and patience and simply the intention to start here once again. And if you can let that return be done in that way, you're cultivating kindness and patience and forgiveness and presence, and you're not taking it personally, the fact that your mind is wandered. So the key is at that moment that you realize you've been lost to come back with the kindest attitude that you can be. A very simple and well, when you have a puppy and you're trying to train her or him, you don't want you don't want them running out into the street or jumping on people. You want them to stay. Cats are a little bit more cooperative, though. They don't jump around so much, they just sit around and purr and wait to be pet headed. But a frisky puppy, and so you put the puppy, if you've had a puppy, I remember when I did it with my dog, you you put you put them on a paper or behind a line, let's just say on the paper, you you put them on and you say stay, right? And then what happens? Wanders off, and then you bring it back with love. Okay, now stay, and then wanders off again, you bring it back each time with love. You don't want to yell at it or beat it from wandering off. It doesn't know any better. So you bring it back with a lot of love and say, okay, stay. And after a while, it gets it. In the same way, think of your mind as this cute, frisky, energetic puppy dog that doesn't know any better, that just needs to be trained. And when it's wandered off, you know, oh, he really did say that to me last week. Okay, come on back. Yeah, or when is this this COVID reality gonna be over? And or what's gonna happen later on this year in the course of our country, or whatever it is, or the human race, or what happened when I was eight years old. Come on, just bring it back. And so if instead of thinking like monkey mind, that's often a term that's used, oh monkey mind, it's kind of like a not a very good relationship to have with it. You just are training the puppy to come back very lovingly each time. So keep that in mind as we have our little meditation session. That's it for so I'm gonna sit my set my insight timer for 15 minutes, and I'll start with a little bit of instructions included in there, and invite you to find a posture you can be reasonably comfortable and still. And this is a chance to simply connect with your internal experience and with yourself and with all of us at the same time. So I invite you, if you'd like, to close your eyes gently. If you prefer to have them open, that's that's okay. You just might want to have them gently gazed downward, but otherwise let yourself gently close your eyes and first turn your attention inward and know that you're alive.

SPEAKER_04: 15:18

Even first coming to that reality and connect with this body. You might find a posture that you can be reasonably upright.

SPEAKER_03: 15:38

I like the image that Tiknad Han gives of thinking of yourself like a mountain, strong, worthy of respect, here for any changes in the weather. And at the same time, a sense of ease and receptivity. So just notice if there's any places of tension or holding and invite them to relax. You might take a quick scan through the body from head to toe, the face, your back and shoulders and arms, your chest and belly, your torso, down through your hips and pelvic area, through your legs, upper and lower, down through your feet and ankles, just inviting relaxation.

SPEAKER_04: 16:41

And down to feel a connection with the earth and feel the earth underneath you, feel the earth support you. It's here for you.

SPEAKER_03: 16:56

And then you might take a few deeper breaths. I like to do that at the start of a sitting, just some nice deep breaths and breathing in a calming energy. And as you breathe out, let go, relax, let go of anything that you don't need.

SPEAKER_04: 17:19

Any tension, any holding, just invite relaxation. And then let the breath find its own natural rhythm.

SPEAKER_03: 17:38

And let the breath grieve you. You don't need to make anything happen.

SPEAKER_04: 17:44

It's been doing just fine your whole life.

SPEAKER_03: 17:55

And then notice where you feel the breath most. Apparently, you might feel your whole body expanding and contracting as you sit here. Or maybe as it enters the nostrils, or the belly, or the chest rising and falling. Just check out how do I know I'm breathing right now. And let that be the place that you rest your attention as your home base. So whenever the mind wanders, you know you can come back to this place of connection and refuge.

SPEAKER_04: 18:49

Let the mind be open and relaxed. You don't have to push anything away.

SPEAKER_03: 18:57

Not like you have blinders and pouncing on the breath like a bucking bronco. Just let the mind be open and spacious, with the breath in the foreground for now. But if something else calls your attention, whether it's a sound or a sensation, just simply know hearing is happening or feeling pressure or vibration. If an emotion arises, then let yourself open to that.

SPEAKER_04: 19:43

Oh, here's calm, here's joy, here's sadness, whatever it is, just let it be here and hold it, meet it with a kind, loving awareness. And returning back to the breath when it feels right to to reconnect in that way.

SPEAKER_03: 20:15

And remembering that whenever the mind wanders, rather than judgment or frustration, you bring it back with kindness and love and begin again. Let yourself come out gently, mindfully staying connected to yourself as we connect with each other. Thank you, James.

SPEAKER_01: 31:47

Would it be all right if I ask a question right now?

SPEAKER_03: 31:50

Sure. Yeah. And I also think it occurs to me if there's any questions about the instructions as well or anything that might have come up in the in the meditation, open it up while it's a little fresh.

SPEAKER_01: 32:04

Absolutely. I do have a question about the guided meditation that you just led. Yeah. Some mindfulness and meditation teachers will sort of front-end the meditation with the instructions and then do what you did basically, where you then invite that long pause where there's no interjected guides or reminders. Some teachers will interspersed guidance throughout. Some people will do sort of a hybrid. Just wondering what your thoughts on that are. If there's a preference or a philosophy, does it depend on the situation? But how do you whether to front-end the meditation with the instructions or interspersed throughout?

SPEAKER_03: 32:48

Well, it it's interesting you asked that because I I debated within myself. Usually I do have some reminders. Once or twice, usually I might say, What's happening now? Or sometimes towards the second half of the meditation, I often say, start the meditation right now. And it kind of gets confusing. People say, Well, what are you in their mind, maybe, well, what have I been doing? But then I say, start the meditation right now, let go of everything that's happened up until this point, and let this be the beginning. And in a in a way, it's a kind of invitation to let go of the past and come into each moment fresh. So I often do that. At the B if I'm saying teaching a retreat, the first day or two, I do do that with a number of reminders, you know, once or twice, depending upon how long, usually twice in a in a longer period. But sometimes I'll just go for the silence because I want people to experience that too. And it just so happened that today I was I was getting into the silence and also wanted to make sure that people could just drop into that silence and experience that. So either way, and I usually do have some some reminders. But what's your preference?

SPEAKER_01: 34:14

I think it depends on the context. If I feel like the group is a bit more well practiced, that's sort of an intermediate or advanced group, I might extend the silence and maybe add a few points of emphasis in the beginning, but not a lot of instruction. It also depends on the type of meditation. If it's mindfulness of breathing, where it's relatively straightforward or simple or common, then I will extend the silence. Most of my meditations these days are a mixture of practices where we might start with grounding, segue into mindfulness of breathing, then go into noticing more of the emotional landscape in the body, like you know, areas of unpleasantness or pleasantness. And working with, you know, that kind interest is the words you you share. And just sensing that physically followed by self-compassion, if it's unpleasant. And then usually then sharing the simple sense of care with others, sort of like a meta practice for other people in the group, family, community, world, all beings, and then capped by another grounding practice of just reorienting back in the body for a minute or two and then re-engaging very slowly and softly. So because that's a multifaceted practice, it requires guidance for those transitions. So, but I think the reason why that question popped up into my head is because I really value those extended periods of silence that I think are often overlooked in guided meditations. We're kind of used to being guided throughout, whether it's five, ten, twenty minutes often. And so I think that it's, you know, it takes courage to offer that amount of silence. I think some teachers may fear just keeping it for an extended period of time because there may be a comment that I'm not offering it to. Or what are people thinking right now? Like, are they lost in their thought world? Are they running into traumatic territory or area of areas of trauma? So I think that extending the pause past what you may be comfortable with can be useful to try in any setting because it's it's very rich and delicious to be able to have that space of just being, sensing into your own experience. And sometimes guidance can be a distraction for some people every once in a while, but but there is that level of depth that you can access oftentimes with that extended silence.

SPEAKER_03: 37:06

So yeah, and if if it's a group of complete beginners, I would I would certainly give some reminders. There's my wife, who's been practicing since before we met in over 40 years as well, since 1976. She teaches a lot of MBSR classes. And we often have this this discussion. They're used to giving a lot of reminders. And and I'm always saying, you know, let them have some silence too. That's that's a good thing. And so that there was a part of an inclination that here you are all learning to teach mindfulness. I wanted to just make sure you had a sense of the silence. So it was actually, in some ways, a kind of confidence and trust that you could handle the silence. And here's Marianna, who says, I found that beginners need more guidance in shorter periods of silence, that people have some experience. What do you think of adding silence in between guided portions as opposed to the end for beginners? That might be a way to transition to more and more periods of silence. That way they might not feel abandoned at the end.

SPEAKER_07: 38:23

Yes, hi. I love the periods of silence. I think that's where I get the most out of my meditations. But I have found that with beginners, either they're used to doing guided meditations or you know, they're not comfortable being in silence for too long. So I tend to shortly like, you know, if it's the same person I'm working with, I would I will gradually increase the period of silence at the end. But I was wondering for groups, I mean, I think it's always a good idea to space the guided portion out, even if you do have a guided meditation so that you take it, there's breaks in between. And I think that's more of a it also trains the person, I think, gradually to feel be more comfortable in silent. So even when we do guided meditations, I think it's a probably a good practice to leave a lot of space in between our words or the portions of the meditation. I don't know, just the thoughts.

SPEAKER_03: 39:25

Yeah. Well, I'm I'm I'm sorry, you're gonna say more? No, I'm good.

SPEAKER_07: 39:28

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 39:29

You know, I owe I say to people to really trust your intuition and trust what feels right for you. There's so many different ways to do it. So rather than being concerned with doing it the right way or the wrong way, do it in a way that for you feels most resonant and and supportive, and then be willing to hear feedback one way or another. That's another big part of being in that role. But uh just just trust your own intuition. It's one of the things, you know, I do a lot of mentoring and and supporting and and helping people be share that these practices and these principles. And one of my main intentions and approaches is for people to have enough confidence and trust that they can listen to their own experience and see, oh, this is this is what I feel would be most helpful at this point. So I'd say carry on.

SPEAKER_01: 40:27

Thank you. James, you've been teaching for a long time and you have a rich background as a practitioner. I've seen you some photos of you back in India, I guess in the 70s, I want to say. Yep. You know, part of that wave of Westerners who brought mindfulness back to the United States. And so obviously you immerse yourself in the teachings and in the practice pretty early on intensively. I'm curious about how you started transitioning into the role of a teacher of mindfulness and meditation, maybe what some of those feelings you had were, maybe excitement, trepidation, uh, generosity, fear. What that transition was like and what was supportive of you as you were navigating that transition into someone who was sharing this with others back here in the West.

SPEAKER_03: 41:31

Okay. Well, first I was introduced the practice, it was in 1974. I was 27 at the time. And I I came to it. I I read a book, if you're old enough, or maybe you've heard of the book, uh, even subsequent generations, the book Be Here Now by Ram Das, which changed my life. And that that book spoke to me and seeing, oh my goodness, there's a possibility here. I'm not alone in my confusion and my separation. And I and I went out to a place called Naropa Institute in those days. It's now Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado, in 1974, when it was first the first summer that it was there. And Joseph Goldstein and Jack Hornfield were teaching. They had just come back from Asia. And I spoke to Ramdas, my hero. I had carried around Be Here Now like a Bible for three years, and I got to speak to Ram Das, and among other things, I asked him about meditation because I was doing, I had been doing TM, transcendental meditation in those days. The Beatles did it, and I figured if it was good enough for John Lennon, it was good enough for me. And I did TM for a few years, but there was something more that I was looking for, and I I so I asked Ramdas in that very first interview when I first got there, I said, What about meditation? I've been doing TM. What do you think? And he said, Go check this guy Goldstein out. He's pretty good. And I went to Joseph's class in essential Buddhism. And if you don't know Joseph Goldstein, I highly recommend you listen to his talks and his books. And after about 10 minutes, the first few minutes, I was kind of judging the package. This is the great meditation teacher. He sounded like he was from Brooklyn and I was from Queens, and he didn't look so different than I did, and he didn't have long flowing locks and look very spiritual. I thought, this is the meditation teacher? I don't know. And then after about 10 minutes, I really heard what he was saying and where he was coming from. Not just what he was saying, but how he was. And he was saying it was possible to not be run by your neurotic thoughts. I had never entertained that as a possibility before. But the way he said it, I believed him. And there was a part of me that just said, I'm going for it. Because I had my own inner turmoil and suffering. And I just dove in, hook line, and sinking into the practice. And I did a lot of retreats those first few years, lots of retreats, because it was something so compelling when I went inside and I was starting to just starting a little by little to make friends with myself. And I have a kind of teaching gene in me. Or I don't know about teaching gene, but I love to turn people on to stuff that I believe in. And I was a school teacher. I was a fifth grade and sixth grade teacher in New York for a number of years. I started teaching in 1968. And I'm I have the temperament if I see a good movie or read a good book, I can't keep my mouth shut about it. You gotta check this out. And here I was so moved by the practice, I just wanted to share it with everyone. But in those first day, first years, what I did was just wanting to get people to come to hear Joseph, who was my teacher. And I organized a lot of retreats when I moved out to California from from New York in 77. And I I like to make things happen when I really believe it. And so somehow I became organized the organizer of Joseph and Jack's retreats. Basically, so people could come and I could, people could come and hear Joseph give a mind-blowing talk on concepts in reality. That was basically my motivation. I just wanted them to sit at Joseph's feet and practice and blow their mind. And but also I found that I started to really understand a bit how not to believe your thoughts. And I, like I said, I can't keep my mouth shut about something when I when I find it helpful. And out of gratitude, I wanted to, I I wanted to share, but actually it wasn't until uh when I moved out to California, I was invited to teach a class by the person who invited me out, who had I shared a flat with. He had gone to Naropa and he met me there. And I was asked to teach a class in mindfulness meditation, a 10-week class at a place called Holistic Life University, which is no longer in existence. And when he asked me, I wanted to ask my teachers, which is always a good thing to do, to get the blessing of your teachers. And my two teachers, my two main teachers in as far as the Dharma spirituality in my life, were have always been Joseph and Ramdas, who I spent time with in New York in a small scene starting in 1975, and we got to know each other. And I said, What do you think, Joseph? And Joseph gave me, he said, Yeah, he said, actually, better him than better you than him, that you might as well teach it as long as you're gonna be, as long as it's gonna be offered, why not you teach it? It wasn't like you sing, yeah, go knock them their socks off. He said, Yeah, good, let's see what see what happens. And I said, Do you have any advice? This might be useful for you, all of you. I said, Do you have any advice? He and he said, I would suggest you keep in mind two things. Yeah. He said, one, don't be afraid to say you don't know when you don't know, if that made sense. And two, don't be afraid to be a moron. Those were his exact words. He said he'd been perfecting that for a while. And what he was what he was pointing to was don't put yourself up on a on a pedestal or wonder, oh, what what if they what if they find out that I'm a fraud? Just be yourself and don't try to impress, just come from authentically loving this stuff and sharing what is there to share. And and and just be yourself. Great, thank you. Then I went to Ramdas and I said, What do you think? Joseph said that he thought it was it was a good idea. And Ramdas said, go ahead and do it, teach the course, and at the end, give them an experience of intensive practice. So he said, lead them in a weekend retreat. I said, Really? I should do that. He says, Yeah, you've been practicing. I had done a three-month retreat by then and a number of shorter retreats. So, and I knew something about practice. And he said, give them a taste of real practice, not just, you know, a daily practice. And I said, Okay. And so I started teaching weekend retreats. And I taught lots of weekend retreats from like 78 through 82, like almost monthly retreats. One of the teachers, Sharda Rogel at Spirit Rock. She was the cook, uh, and and my wife, we were kind of a traveling show. No, we always always used to go up to Commonweal in Bolinas and teach there. And then in 1982, I taught my first retreat after my my wife and I, she wasn't my wife then, sat a three-month retreat. And then we went to Asia for another time with Joseph and Jack and a number of others. And when I got there, Joseph, there were a few of us, and he didn't realize that his teacher, Meninger G had organized a retreat for him to teach. And he didn't really want to, the last thing he wanted to do was teach. He'd been teaching nonstop for the whole year. And he just wanted to sit. And he turned to me and he said, Okay, James, I was Jamie in those days. Okay, Jamie, here's your chance. You gotta help me. And he said, You teach the retreat. We were in robes, by the way. We did this little ceremony where we took robes for a couple of weeks. West Nisker and a few others were with us. And he said, You teach the retreat, you do, I'll tell you what, I'll give the talk the first three nights. And then it was kind of like the von Trapp family. He said, you know, by the end, I'll just slip out and and you and you can you can carry on. And you, there were 60 people for the retreat. Sally Armstrong was on that retreat. It was one of her first retreats. She's a spirit rock teacher. And Meninjuji, who was Joseph's teacher and a teacher of mine, and Deepama, who is this great yogi. If I I recommend the life of Deepama if you haven't read it, they were my assistants. They would do, they would help out with the with the with people who had personal questions, but I'd see people the whole retreat seeing a whole lot of people. So that was when I started doing teaching retreats, and I started teaching after that. So now back to your question about the transition of being a teacher. I, although I I loved to share out of gratitude, it's mainly out of gratitude. I just wanted to share what was so helpful for me. I also had lots of doubting thoughts, actually, for the first, really for the first 10 or 12 years in my mind, there was a part of me that was apologizing, like, you know, what if they find I'm just, it's just little Jamie from Queens, New York. But that was, that's part of the deal. Who am I to share these these profound teachings? And then there are other times where you, you know, you might believe your press, and people say, Oh, you've changed my life. And you think, oh, wow, maybe, maybe I'm I'm pretty good. And so part of the deal is learning with to deal with negative identifications. What who am I? Or hey, I'm the coming of the next Buddha here, you know, and starting to identify in that way, or being subject to the projections of others. Either, who do you think you are? Or, oh my God, you've changed my life. And so dealing with projections is also a key to being in that seat. And that's something that I talk a lot about in working with that in your in teaching, teach taking the teacher seat. But after a while, little by little, as the practice deepens and you see it's not about me, it's about life using me. It's about being a channel for something profound, that more and more you get out of the way and realize that you can trust that the Dharma or life knows how to use you. And and then the doubts start falling away. I must say one last thing. When I'd be teaching, when I'd be actually giving a talk, for instance, it would be okay most of the time. I sometimes I'd be kind of watching myself give a thought talk, which is which is kind of a hell realm. But mostly it would be okay during the talk, but it would be leading up to the talk and then the post-mortem afterwards. Oh, how did I do? Whatever. But these days I kind of just trust that I'm being useful. And that comes with experience. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01: 53:27

I think a lot of people in this mastermind are sharing mindfulness or want to share mindfulness in secular settings. So some of us are coaches, some of us HR consultants or professionals sharing mindfulness with teams in a say a corporate setting. Some are in healthcare or education, where words like dharma and even spirituality are frowned upon in those settings. It's not safe to use those words, which is understandable. And you know, mindfulness is sort of embedded in spirituality in a way where we're really connected with energy and spirit and fosters virtue, really. The more we're mindful of our experience, the more we see the harm that we may be doing to ourselves and others, and the more care we treat each moment, moment to moment, without or with less and less judgment. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or words for people sharing mindfulness in secular settings, what might be overlooked or how to maybe bridge that gap in a way of communicating the power of mindfulness across all aspects of life in a secular setting where words like spirituality or Buddhism or Dharma or religion may be frowned upon.

SPEAKER_03: 55:00

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 55:01

Important question, especially at this time.

SPEAKER_03: 55:04

And it it's important to I I you know when I said the word dharma before, I was assuming that you do use have used words like that, or or do you not?

SPEAKER_01: 55:13

It depends on the context. You know, I think a lot of people know my background, and I'm not here to prescribe any religion, I don't nor are you, but but for those of you who may not be familiar with that word dharma, sometimes it's translated as truth or reality. In other contexts, it may be considered like the Buddha's teachings or truth of Buddhism. I don't think of as a religion per se, but basically the nature of reality could be considered definition of dharma.

SPEAKER_03: 55:43

Okay, all right, good. Good to know the label and what you've been sharing. So words are very important, they can trigger people and bring up resistance, and you want to be able to connect in a way that really resonates people. In fact, the Buddha himself, as one of his last comments and instructions, was go forth and speak in the idiom of the language of the people that you meet, that you encounter. And one other instruction like that was when Jack Cornfield, you probably all have heard of Jack Cornfield, when he was leaving Thailand, he'd been a monk for about four years, and he'd a Buddhist monk, and he'd spoke, and he asked his teacher, Ajahn Cha, a great master, for advice. He said, You know, I think I'm gonna go back to the States and I wanna I wanna share this stuff. It's been so powerful and found to me, and I think I'm gonna teach. And do you have any advice? And Ajahn Cha said, Yeah, there's one thing I can think of. You might call it Christianity. And it was a beautiful, beautiful teaching that it doesn't matter what you call it, you want to be able to communicate and have whoever is on the receiving end take in. And in these teachings, it is there's an open invitation, come and see for yourself. So you're not trying to communicate any dogma. However, there are some principles that when people check out for themselves are transforming, transformative. The power of mindfulness is transformative. And I sometimes say, if the Buddha came, could somehow reappear and say, you know, that mindfulness stuff, I was just kidding. You know, it wouldn't matter because I know it works. So you're talking from your own experience. And then the question is how to translate that into a way that's that's going to affect and be heard and be meaningful for others. And at this time, this is the way I see this mindfulness explosion that's happened over the last 20 or 30 years. We're in a time, a crucial time in the human evolution, the human experiment. We're at a crossroads here. And as one friend puts it, we are in a race between fear and consciousness. And sometimes I think of it as basically just fear or love. And so mindfulness is a tool to bring about more consciousness. And as teachers of mindfulness, I think of you all, or people who are in a position to share with others as agents of consciousness that can help awaken that capacity and potential in others who then awaken to that possibility and share and ripple out, whether they're teachers or just in their being. This is actually Ramdas when I first was seeing about studying him. And I went to Joseph and I said, he says, I got to stop my meditation. And and and Joseph said, What is he gonna do? Tell you to not be aware? So, you know, if somebody says, No, I don't want to be aware, I'm sorry, well, then they're they're choosing to sleepwalk. Okay, may you wake up in time, but you want to just put it in words of just this is learning to be a more aware, kind, loving, compassionate human being. Now, with some of the things that are often left out in secular mindfulness that I think are vital, vital, whether or not you're going to a corporation or teaching in a school or wherever, besides just learning how to be present, there's some underpinnings of supports for this practice that if if they're not communicated, it's just there's a big piece that's missing. And that is the importance of ethics and kindness. And if you're leaving out a life of integrity, then you're you're you're selling it short. Because mindfulness is about learning to be honest and truthful with your experience. Oh, this is what's happening right now. Oh, I'm sad right now. I'm frightened right now. There's love right now. And it's learning to tell the truth to yourself so that more and more you can embed. Embody the truth and share it with others. And the truth is that if you're causing harm unconsciously or consciously in some way, it's really hard to settle and find peace inside. And so in order to find the to reduce stress, lots of people want to take mindfulness as a stress reduction. If you want to reduce stress, you've got to minimize the harm you're causing to yourself or to others. That it kind of aligns you with your deepest values. And you probably know people who embody integrity. There's something very safe and relaxing about them. They're a refuge and you can trust them. And if you're with somebody who's not straight, a con artist, a con man, somebody who's just out for themselves, even if they talk a good talk about, yeah, it's important to be aware, you're not going to be trusting them and there's going to be something missing, even if they're, they say all the right words about mindfulness. And so just you know for yourself when somebody embodies integrity and ethics, it inspires you and it makes you want to live the best you can. So in these teachings, integrity is a basis for inner peace. It's a foundation for inner peace. Not that we're saints all the time, but and when we blow it, we have to we keep on learning from it, as one of my teachers says, as long as you're learning, there are no mistakes. But if you want to be more conscious and more aware, then you're you're in the game to keep on growing and being aware. So that's one thing. And the one other thing that I can think of that's sometimes left out of secular mindfulness is that it's more than just feeling good and finding some some ways to reduce your stress. That it's actually possible, as I got a glimpse of that first time I met Joseph Goldstein, it's actually possible to not be run by your neurotic thoughts. It's actually possible to uproot and wake up from confusion. And it's actually possible to lessen living from greed or hatred or confusion, and it's actually possible to cultivate more kindness, generosity, and wisdom and to really purify the mind. And it's all about rewiring your brain, your neural circuits. If if if if somebody doesn't kind of cringes at the word spirituality, you can just look at neuroscience. And as it said, neurons that fire together wire together. And so you're kind of rewiring the brain and the heart so that you can start to act more in harmony with yourself and be an inspiration for others. So those two things, ethics and the possibility of really changing your mind in the most beautiful way to be more aligned with all of the values that you have. And out of that, your love and your compassion naturally shine through. That's the beautiful thing. You don't have to work hard to do it, although, of course, it's good to cultivate that. But when your mind isn't confused, your natural way of being, your love and your compassion and your light shines through.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:41

Thank you for sharing that, James. I think all of us are here because we've experienced a great deal of inner peace and inner freedom through this practice. And I think a lot of us are sharing mindfulness with similar intentions out of gratitude and generosity and excitement about how profound this practice can be in our own personal lives. We want to impact others personally as well. And as you said, we're in this race, sort of globally between fear and consciousness or love. And unlike any other time in history, the consequences of that race are they can be dire if if fear wins theirs. So I I left the monastery after two years because I was reading Joanna Macy write about climate change, and I I needed to do everything I possibly could to support the planet, specifically in regard to climate change. And I thought, well, maybe the way I can help do that is to share mindfulness and meditation with people at scale. And we have social inequity, we have injustices left and right. Take a look at our political climate, especially in the United States. Um so with these larger social issues, with climate change, other forms of suffering and trauma, how do you think mindfulness can make society as a whole? How can mindfulness make a difference to society as a whole? And how can we, as mindfulness teachers, support that sea change, support that race of love and consciousness on these larger issues outside of just, you know, inner peace?

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:36

Yeah. Glad you asked the question. It's it's one of the main motivations I have for teaching. As you said, it in introducing me, I'm I'm uh one of the advisors for One Earth Sangha, which I highly recommend you check out, which is Dharma Response to Climate Change. Sangha is S-A-N-G-H-A. You just go to one earthsangha.org. And for me, this is more than just it's more than just finding inner peace for yourself. That would be a very limited view of of what this practice is about. And as I said, consciousness is what's going to change this world. And never before, never before has there been as much capacity for humans to destroy our very existence and and life on this planet. The planet will keep on surviving, whether we do or not. But we're we're going right near a cliff. But at the same time, never before has there been as much consciousness. Never. Never before has there been as much exposure to mindfulness practices, to compassion. What was it? The book that Paul Hawken wrote a book called Blessed Unrest a number of years ago, where he he was on a research project to see how much good there is in the world. And he he discovered there are between, at that point, this is many years ago, between one and two million people, two million groups doing compassionate work on this planet. So there's there's this quite extraordinary opportunity here that we're in to make a difference and be part of the solution. But mindfulness alone, inner peace is not enough. But it's not like you're going to be proselytizing. I remember when I first turned on, got turned on to mindfulness, to the practice. I was so excited that I was, it was like I would, I would run down the streets and saying to my friends, you just have to be mindful. You just have to be mindful. And they kind of like, you know, slunk away from me, like, all right, give me a break, you know, because I can get very enthusiastic about things. And it took me a while to give a bit softer sell and realize that the more I could embody it, the more people would sometimes say, Well, what are you into anyway? I was a school teacher, and when I first first started getting introduced to the for the practice, one of the first times I came back, this is after I came back after 1974, I'd been teaching for about five or six years. And I came back the first time I came back, I used to have a really good desk slam, like, come on, everybody, be quiet, which would work for about 30 seconds or so. Kids liked being in my class. I was cool, I had long hair and beard, and I was like a hippie in a very conservative neighborhood in New York. It's like, oh, we're in Mr. Barris' class. But the first time I came back after being, after getting into the meditation, the first time was a very, very it got noisy as classes do, and I just decided I'd go quiet inside. And I'd get quiet within myself, even though the whole class might have been in pandemonium. And inside of about 20 seconds, people would be saying, Look at Mr. Barris, what's he doing? And I just keep on getting, I just needed to get quiet for myself. And lo and behold, after about a minute, there was this complete hush in the class. And then finally I opened up my eyes and they said, What were you doing? And I said, I just needed to be quiet. Well, what were you doing? And it turned out they had to beg me to teach them what I was doing. That was then I knew that I had found the answer, not the hard sell, just embody it. And we I teach them a little each week, and I'd and I just leave it there and say, no, no more. No. Well, in the same way, you don't want to proselytize and bang over the head people saying, you just have to be mindful. But rather, the more you embody it, the more it is, it touches people. There are some principles around these teachings that I think can make a huge difference in shifting the consciousness of this planet. One, as you start paying attention, you start seeing that you're not separate from everyone else. We're all in this together. And there's an understanding little by little, I don't know if if you've gotten into this, Sean, or you know, maybe you intend to, about understanding the interconnectedness of it all. As John Muir said, something like, you know, once once you see, once you take, try to take something out of the universe, you see it every, it's hitched to everything else. So to really understand how what we do makes a difference, not just to us, but to everyone in this world. And this reality that we're in right now is pointing that out in a way that no that we've never seen it before. We'd better figure out how to be on the same page in this, or it'll just keep on. This virus is teaching us. There's a beautiful, powerful video. I'll I'll share you the link later on called A Letter from the Virus. Anyone has seen that? Very powerful in Italian, and it's with subtitles, and it's it's the virus speaking as an ally coming to wake us up. Then there's another video, The Great Realization. Anybody see that one where the father is reading the kid's book to the child, looking back at 2020 when people used to used to do strange things on this planet. So there, this is a wake-up call to see. We're all in this together. A couple of other principles at the heart of these teachings, actions have consequences. What Jesus taught, what goes around comes around. Or, no, as ye sow, so shall ye read. Colloquially, what goes around comes around. Or the law of karma, actions have consequences. Another principle, like we were saying before about integrity, that living with integrity feels good and is the way to honor all life. Another principle is stewardship, how good it feels to express our caring and compassion. And one other principle is we can change. Change is possible. If you have the intention, if you think, if your intention to change is greater than your intention to stay the same, you'll change. So all of those are underlying principles that can shift consciousness, that mindfulness is a kind of gateway to understanding.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:41

Great reflections, James. That last point you said, I think it was your last point where when people want to change, when the suffering is greater to stay the same, or sorry, the suff yeah, the suffering is greater when you stay the same versus if you change. And people kind of realize that to spark their process of waking up and bringing mindfulness to their experience and softening their judgment and really tuning into what's actually happening moment to moment without that filter of story and judgment. Sometimes we'll rationalize our suffering or or feed the, you know, I know you s you teach a lot about joy. And so, you know, maybe you can also create leverage that way by inviting people to experience a greater sense of freedom and and joy and gratitude. So I'm wondering if there's anything you do in your teachings to help create that leverage point to either remind people of the suffering of not being mindful or the joy of being mindful. There's any process or invitation or even meditation on that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:07

Yeah, yeah. Maybe I can lead you something in something right now. Yeah, I teach this course, Awakening Joy, the which you're welcome to check out and just go to awakeningjoy or awakeningjoy.info. And I wrote a book by that title because I got very serious about my practice, as I sometimes say, dead serious, and I lost my joy for a while. So I I have these 10 different states that that can be cultivated that lead towards greater well-being. And the first is intention. It all starts with intention. If you can have a vision of something of a possibility, like you had a vision to learn and about teaching mindfulness from Sean. If you once you have a vision, then you are inspired to go in that direction. And one of my inspiring teachings that that that motivated me for many years, even before I got into no, it was after I got into meditation, was from this guy Napoleon Hill, who wrote a book by the strange title of Think and Grow Rich, but it's a really good book. And the the essence of his teaching is what the mind can conceive and believe it can achieve. So it starts with conceiving of the possibility, having a vision, and then believing that it's possible and doing whatever you can to make that happen. So the key piece in this whole process is being inspired to create something. Like I was inspired when I first heard Joseph, as I said at the very beginning. I'm going for it. That was the key moment in the whole process. And probably you've had those moments in your life many times. But we can, I can take you through a little practice right now to get in touch with your intention that inspires you. So I invite you, if you like, close your eyes for a moment.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:09

So here you are learning to be a mindfulness teacher.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:20

And just imagine learning not only for yourself but for others so that you can really contribute. Just imagine learning more and more to find that center within yourself to learn to really access all the love and compassion and wisdom inside that's there waiting to be shared. And just imagine as your own practice deepens, how good it will feel to share with others and help them awaken in the same way that you have. Continuing to deepen and mature so that others can benefit from what you have to share.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:54

Just get a sense of what that would feel like and look like seems like a worthwhile project. Get in touch with your own heartfelt decision to really go for it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:53

No matter what doubts might come into your mind, oh, who am I? What if I don't do it well? Let go of that and to really just go for it and do your part and let life support you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:13

No report card, no timetable. You're just facing in that direction. Because this is the vision that really inspires you. Just decide to really go for it right now. And if you were to put in a few words for yourself, your inspiring manner or slogan.

SPEAKER_03: 1:20:57

Whether it's like I said, I'm going for it, or may I really be of service? May I bring out as much love and wisdom as I can.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:08

You find the words that work for you. So when there's doubts that arise, I get in the way.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:40

So if anything comes out of our time here together, let's just take some time to hear from you. Yeah. Gabrielle, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:51

Hi, um Gabrielle. I'm from Melbourne, so I'm sorry about being a bit late at 6.30 or nearly seven in the morning. So but I got here, which was awesome. So that last visualization was beautiful, thank you. And I guess my question is, I've been, I have a lot of different practices, and I was quite heartened to see that your practice was really leading to a spiritual experience or leading to a part of a heightened, more connected part of self is how I experienced it. And I've been wondering about mindfulness and how much I can push that and where I'm leaning towards using it is in spiritual experiences in a heightened state to take people in a kindness, curious space within places that have great power. And I'm just again heartened to see that you've doing that, which is lovely. And the people that I want to work with, either autistic or autism carers, there's a lot of trauma, a lot of stress ongoing. Have you worked with that population in any way or with people who have had a lot of ongoing stress that really isn't going to go away, but the way they perceive it and experience, I think, is the opportunity to make the biggest change for themselves.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:06

Beautiful. Thank you for wanting to do that work. It's so important. I haven't worked specifically with that population. However, there are a few things that do come to mind. One is that two different teachers have experience with that population that you might check out. One is Will Cabotzin, who is the son of John Cabotzin. You probably have heard of John Cabotzin. Will Cabotzin. His wife is an expert with working with autism. And he and she have offered teachings, and I would imagine there are some online, around working with that population, particularly in supporting parents and caregivers so that they don't stress out. So it's specifically about bringing mindfulness to people who work with that population. So you might check out, I'm sure he has a website and full of teachings as well. His wife's name is Teresa, but Will Cabot's in, and so they probably have things written about it. There's another teacher, Kate Munding, who M-U-N-D-I-N-G, who teaches stuff online. She's a spirit rock teacher. They're both spirit rock teachers. And she has a child who is on the spectrum, and she's been learning a lot. And she also teaches how to bring mindfulness and education. So I would imagine she'd have something to say and some leads about that. And then as well, Melbourne, you uh do you have any connection to Melbourne Insight? No, I don't. So there's there's a a a good community in Melbourne. I've gone there a few times. I love Melbourne. It's one of my favorite places. And Melbourne Insight, they meet on, I think it's Monday nights, and there's another one that meets on well, Wednesday nights. Although these days, oh no, you're just opening up, actually. Who knows how long it'll be because I'm in touch with people from Melbourne all the time.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:12

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:14

So check out Melbourne Insight and be around like-minded friends that you can you can sit with as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:21

No, that's magic. Thank you so much. And thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:24

And Sean, thank you. Good to meet you. Glad you can join.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:28

Lovely. James, remember you often will end the workshop or a class by uh singing Here Comes the Sun. I think that's George Harrison.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:40

How about the the actual one when you want me to lead a song? I can pull up my guitar if you want. Oh, that'd be great. Okay. That's all actually the the the perfect mindfulness song is I Can See Clearly Now. All right. So sing with me. Will you please do that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:56

And do you want us on mute or not?

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:58

It was either between that and listen this little light of mine is another of my favorites. But since I said I can see clearly now, but you can, I think if you keep on singing this little light of mine, that can be as your ongoing instructions. And when I sing I can see clearly now, you know, it might seem like a sappy kind of a thing. It's not like, oh, it's going to be bright sunshiny days. There's a lot of days that are ahead that will be that will be challenging and dark as well. But if we keep facing towards the light, that's what will bring out. So say it's going to be bright sunshiny days. Just keep on turning towards the light. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30:50

Bright sunshiny day. It's gonna be bright.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:04

So last last thing I I was saying, and I gotta go, but don't forget about there's sorrow in this world that we have to work with and deal with, and there's beauty and goodness in this world. And the more you notice and look for the good inside and outside, the more you bring it out. And so let your light shine and see all the good around you and help bring it out because that's what's going to heal this world. And you're all agents of consciousness in that regard. And so happy that we could spend some time together and support you in that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:42

James, thank you so much for teachings and your generosity today. We can't thank you enough. On behalf of everyone, thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:53

And may our coming here together be for the benefit of the whole world, of everyone in our life, and may it ripple out and keep spreading goodness. So great to be with you and thank you, Sean, and thank you for what you're doing.