Ellen Z. Goldberg: 0:02

Aviva Gottlieb is a wife and mother of five who works full-time as a grants administrator. In college, she was introduced to African dancing and despite long breaks while raising her family, she has spent years dancing, choreographing, teaching, and sharing her unique mix of what it means to be a religious Jewish woman who connects so deeply to African dance. Join me now to hear her story. As religious Jewish women, we're always running for our families, our work, our communities, and our values. But what if fitness could be more than just another thing on the to-do list? I'm Ellen z Goldberg, and on this podcast we explore how movement can bring us closer to the best version of ourselves and closer to Hashem Because when we build physical strength, we build spiritual strength too. Join me now for Frum Women in Motion. Aviva, thank you so much for joining me today.

Aviva Gottlieb: 1:09

Thank

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 1:09

you for having me. So I have a special quote that I like to, that when I'm interviewing somebody, I like to think of what speaks to me, in tradition about that. And for you it was from Parshat Beshalach and the line is‏ותיקח מרים הנביאה אחות אהרון את הטוף בידה ותצאן‏כל הנשים אחריה בתפים ומחלת Miriam, the prophetess sister of Aaron, took the drum in her hands and all the women went forth after her with drums and with dances.

Aviva Gottlieb: 1:43

Absolutely that totally and completely resonates with me. I'm actually a bas Levi so I don't know if Miriam was my aunt or my cousin or my grandma or something. So yeah, definitely, resonates with me.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 1:56

I love that. That's so great. So before we start, let's focus the spiritual energy of the interview for somebody. Special that you're davening for, that you're praying for. Could be somebody that you're davening for, for a refuah shleima, for healing or l'ilui nishmas for someone who's died and you'd like to help elevate their soul, please share the name with us.

Aviva Gottlieb: 2:16

Thank you. My husband actually isn't feeling well. He Had a bad back off and on for the last couple of weeks. So that's, Adam Yehoshua ben Bracha.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 2:26

b''eH Adam Yeshoshua ben Bracha should have a refuah shleima and soon be dancing by your side

Aviva Gottlieb: 2:29

yeah, that would be nice.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 2:31

So tell us about yourself. Something that always I find is so odd when I'm listening to exercise podcast is all they talk about is that the part of a person's life that's about exercise and. I don't think, at least, I don't think for anybody's life, but for sure not any religious, Jewish woman's life is the part of their life that's in motion, as I like to say. Yeah. So tell me, tell us about what fills your day.

Aviva Gottlieb: 2:56

Sure. So, I work, full-time for, Mount Sinai, a medical school in, New York City as a Grants administrator. I work remotely. And, that fills up eight hours of my day. I say a third of my day is, Doing exactly what I did in America before I made aliyah. The other eight hours is sleeping, so that's another 67% of my day. So there's only one third of my day that's different than what I did in America, and a lot of it's the same kind of things anyway. I do the dance, on the side. And, what actually, set me into motion here for the dance was, how I met you. And, we, realized, after, swapping WhatsApps that we were in the same ulpan together and, learning, I didn't, grow up religious and, my Hebrew was, you know, I could read and write, but my Hebrew was just really bad. I came working full time and, just, went to this ulpan to try and learn a little bit more. I really spent a lot of time. After we made aliyah, it's been over seven years now, just when we first came and the year before, just trying to learn Hebrew and listening to, Hebrew classes and saying to myself, Hashem, he taught me, the Torah when I was in my mother's womb. So I must retain the Hebrew. It's gotta be in there, you know, it shouldn't be so hard. And it was really, really hard and really difficult. And I have to say, I'm glad I put all the time in, but it's kind of see it as a failure on my part. I just, I couldn't get it. And I wanted to be here and feel like I'm doing something in this country where I didn't feel like I had two left feet. Because when I speak and try and understand Hebrew, it's literally like I have two left feet. I would say things like Left is right and right is left and up is down.'cause I would just. Speak by association and then I'd think about what I said. I'd say, oh my God, what did I just say? I was just so tired of those experiences and I just wanted to feel like I'm competent in something. And you know, the dance is something I learned in my late teens and my twenties, and I put it on the back burner, but it's something I feel like I could do, very competently. And that's really one of the reasons that got me started in Putting, the dance in motion in my life here.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 4:53

Wow, that is so beautiful. Yeah. I think what people don't realize when you make aliyah I is what an incredibly humbling experience it is in so many ways. And also for, for those of us who were competent at something in America or wherever we came from, and you come here and you're just so incompetent.

Aviva Gottlieb: 5:10

extreme, really incompetent.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 5:12

Yes, I met you in ulpan. I feel like I met a solid third of the city in ulpan, mostly because I was in ulpan a great number of years. I'm not sure my Hebrew would show that, but Okay. I can only keep trying and I feel like every word that I have that I didn't have 10 years ago when I made aliyahi. Pretty darn amazing. Thank you. Hashem. So you mentioned that you're a baalas teshuva I feel like people who did not grow up religious and then become religious always have really interesting stories. Would you feel comfortable sharing some of your story with us?

Aviva Gottlieb: 5:43

Sure. So, you know, I think my personality type anyway was just, it was to be a spiritual person, to be a truth seeker I grew up secular. We went to a conservative shul. It was just very stale. It was as stale as the, Stella D'oro cookies that they would serve us, on the high holidays. We'll never forget those disgusting Stella D'oro cookies with the pink icing on it. It was so stale and just artificially blah, you know? And I just, I never really thought twice about it. It was something we did. I had a bas mitzvah, you know, went to shul on the holidays, and then it was. Over and I was done. I never really thought about it. I didn't realize it, but I think at the time I was using Talmudic principles on why I, didn't become observant. You know, I'd see. People walking in the streets, like dressed so conservatively. And I thought they looked really boring. And I thought, wow, if my, Judaism was boring, how much more so their Judaism must really be boring because they look so boring, because they just, everyone was dressed kind of boring in a boring fashion. And I was like, no, I'm unique, you know, and I. My dress reflected it. You know, I was just very out there, alternative everything, left wing everything, liberal, everything anti-colonial, everything when it wasn't even a thing, you know, that was back many, many years ago. So I just wanted to see what, you know, I wanted to look into what is the truth? Took me on various different paths. I, majored in Asian studies, while I was at Barnard. I did my junior year abroad in India. I lived there for a year. I, was just interested in seeing what the truth is. How do people live, you know, according to spirituality, I was very interested in Hinduism. I got my degree and, did a minor in art history. loved. Indian art history. I did my bachelor's thesis on, I thought it was so creative. I never thought the gods were real. I always thought it was like, wow, people are so creative. Look at these gods that they come up with this elephant, god. Wow, that's so neat. Like people have the wildest imaginations it just captured my imagination. So I was, doing different things. And then eventually. Everything just crashed in my twenties and I had to start building myself back up. And, I just, remembered that there was some light, you know, in Judaism. I went, with my great aunt Hilda to, a shul on the high holidays after I came back from India. I'll never forget it. Went to shul with her. It was a Conservative Shul in Brooklyn, Ocean Parkway Jewish Center. And I just went there. I sat in the back row and all these, old people, you know, all these old Russian people and, I, I know just a fellow Ashkenazi, just everyone, just so comfortable. And it was like, ah, this is my home, you know, with these people. Somehow it just made me like a breath, like this is my community, whoever, all these older people, these are my people. Even the. You know, the Hazen who was wearing his marshmallow hat, you know, that big davening, big he white, puffy thing and whatever it was, it's like, okay, this is my people. I'll just accept it. I'm comfortable being here. And then slowly, it was a long, it was probably about eight years of slowly becoming, slowly more observant. And by the time I became observant, it wasn't, it wasn't really a big deal.'cause it, I did it so slowly that I just took everything on slowly. It was very comfortable for me.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 8:49

Wow. When did you meet your husband in all of this? Were you already observant or you went on the path together?

Aviva Gottlieb: 8:53

I met my husband when I was 30. I was shomer Shabbas and I was keeping kosher. So I met him, then I turned 30 and I started to panic like, oh my gosh, I'm not married, I'm 30. And I was living in Brooklyn. I was also very active in my. Conservative egalitarian shul that I went to. I was laining Torah. I, I learned, I taught myself how to lein Torah. I was like leading services, like all this stuff. And I was just becoming more and more observant. And I knew someone in the city and she said, you know, why don't you come spend a shabbas with me in Manhattan, you know, there's a singles scene up on the Upper West side. I really had no idea'cause I was just busy in my. Conservative egalitarian shul. And that's when I met Adam. I actually, it was the parsha just that just passed. I met, my husband on Parshas Lech Lecha at the Carlebach Shul.

9:37

So I Lech Lecha'ed out of Brooklyn, into Manhattan

Aviva Gottlieb: 9:40

and met Adam. it worked out.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 9:41

That's beautiful. And happy anniversary.

Aviva Gottlieb: 9:43

Thank you.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 9:45

And so you had this slow journey and now here you are with five kids living in Israel. Wow. Okay.

Aviva Gottlieb: 9:54

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you don't know what you, people have no idea. What has Hashem has in store for them? None. None. You know, if Hashem told me that this, that I knew that God, when I was 15 years old, when I was sitting in my bed practicing meditation, you know, that I'd be like in, in Israel with five kids and religion, like my mind would've been blown'cause it, it wasn't even anything that crossed my mind. Or like when I lived in India and I didn't even know it was Yom Kippur I had no idea, you know, I was so far away. So you really just, you don't know. You don't know what's set in motion. You know those little childhood memories that you had, those silly Stella D'oro cookies that like meant so like was so icky. Then like just kind of bring back a different memory. just say,

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 10:37

I kinda like the ones that were shaped like a flower with a little red jelly thing in the middle, but

10:42

okay, fine. Oh yeah. To each her own. And yes, it was

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 10:44

also from. Shabbat mornings at the conservative synagogue. So when did you start dancing? Has this been part of your life since you were a child?

Aviva Gottlieb: 10:53

when I was a child, I took a jazz class. But no, it wasn't like one of these kids who was always in dance things. I did one or two things and then when I was in, college at Barnard, they had some extra curricular activity. They had someone come to teach African dance, She came and I just, I totally loved it. I must have been 17 years old. I was like, this is so cool. I just really connected with the sound of the drums.'cause I always like to dance, you know, I'd always go out, I would go out dancing with my friends, but the sound of the drums

11:22

was like healing on my neshama. I was just like

Aviva Gottlieb: 11:25

the sound of some people, you know, there's certain sounds that like affect, even the flute, I love like the sound of Indian flute. Like it's just like. It just takes me to another place. And the sound of the drums was just, I don't know, it just really connected to it. So I just pursued, taking African dance in New York City. There were many different African dance studios at the time. Three, two or three. So I started taking classes college and then I just kept it up in my twenties. And then I got married and didn't have time for it and left it for another 15 years. I didn't dance at all. It was just so, something I liked to do. I taught, you know, little things here and there. I'd had some choreography and did some shows nothing big, you know, I danced with the recital and with the African dance, class. I was in the dance studio. I went to Africa twice. on dance trips when I was in my twenties and I just, loved it. but then, you know, other things came up that I needed to do and then I came here and realized I was terrible at just, speaking and doing other things. I guess it also made me feel bad. We'll get into that, but I was like, I just need to do something. I feel good about myself. And it's like, you know what, there's millions of, of Jews and Israelis that speak Hebrew, but there aren't that many, frum Jews that do African dance. So that's my niche. If Hashem, maybe Hashem gave me this terrible, like deficiency in, in the, in speech and maybe gave me this to do something else, you know, so

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 12:44

beautiful.

Aviva Gottlieb: 12:45

I don't invest really the time. I don't invest the time. I sometimes I get these little, you know, bubbles of energy, like, oh, I need to learn Hebrew again. I really need to focus and learn, and I'll do that. But it's like, it's so much investment of time. It, because it's not, doesn't come easily. It's like someone in like a wheelchair that needs a lot of. Therapy to get up to walk versus doing something that's just so much easier with like that same hour. You know, like it's just so hard for me. Like I learn Hebrew and it doesn't, it doesn't stick. I can learn the same stupid words or the dikduk(grammar) or whatever, and then someone says, and it's just like. Spaghetti that sticks to a wall and falls down. Yeah, I can learn to dance in an hour and it'll stick. I got it. I don't have to learn like 10 hours of the same thing over and over again. It just, it doesn't stick. Or maybe I don't have the right methodology. I don't know. It could be that too, that I haven't learned the right way of learning for me.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 13:38

I love this concept though, that you found something that you are competent in and that you can share with others and that you can lift up yourself as well as other women. By teaching them dance. That is just beautiful. So how do you work out your schedule each week? You work full-time, you have five children

Aviva Gottlieb: 13:55

yes.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 13:56

Your children are at home

Aviva Gottlieb: 13:58

yeah. So I work full-time. I have a 40 hour a week job. And so I have to work, put in about eight hours a day. I work Sunday through Thursday rather than Monday through Friday.'cause I work for, an American company. They were okay with that. And then it's a seven hour time difference for New York. So I don't have the kind of job where. Things I do are on demand. So as long as I have a few hours that overlap it, it works. And then I have my dance class. It can, it, it changed. Right now it's on Thursday mornings and so whenever it's convenient, I try to do that in the morning'cause I run in, out of my house or on my mirpeset. I have a big mirpeset where we dance outside. It overlooks. The mountains. It's just beautiful. It's just like you just look at all the green mountains around. It's gorgeous. So we're out there during the day. it's easier than at night'cause my kids are around at night. even if we were on the porch, it's easier. And then I, have a small, a dance troupe and then rehearsal's also a Wednesday day. And so my house, so I don't have to travel anywhere. It cuts out the travel time. So it's, you know, I can work that in just like people work in exercise to their schedule.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 15:03

So that's beautiful. Okay, so Machol Aviv is your dance troupe

Aviva Gottlieb: 15:07

and that's I do the dance. I have a, dance class, the dance troupe, and then I run events for women, Mostly in the summer when the porch is available, we get together. whether it's my event or me leading something, We've had belly dancing. We've had Nia, we've had laughing yoga, and then the war came maybe, we'll bring that back, but just have different events. So I had something on, we've had simchas beit hashoevas on my porch for Sukkos. I've had talent shows, I've had open an open an one or two open mics. So it's fun.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 15:39

I think you get I think you get extra points for calling your porch your mirpeset. So I'm going to give you like, like an A plus for ulpan for today because you kind of just called it your porch and I noted you called it your mirpeset.

Aviva Gottlieb: 15:49

Okay. Yeah. Some of the Hebrews sunk in,

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 15:52

you mentioned after the war. So. After October 7th, you actually went viral on Instagram with a video that has something like 180,000 views.

Aviva Gottlieb: 16:02

Oh yeah. That one. Woo. That one, yeah. Really went viral in me.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 16:06

And you were doing an African war dance in it?

Aviva Gottlieb: 16:08

Yes. Yeah. That really captured really just the, yeah. The feeling. I think, right after October 7th, so many of us were so just our hearts were aching and the idea of dancing was just like. How can I dance? You know, like, how can I celebrate things? So actually the dances that we were doing were war dances.'cause I felt like there was a lot of anger and there's a lot of aggression and it's not something to be, you know, to be like, it doesn't exist. No, we were attacked, we were viciously attacked as we've been viciously attacked from millennia. You know, and it's just it's appropriate to be really angry about it. So, that dance was done. I don't even remember It was definitely, at least a year, I'd say, after the war. But yeah, it was just after just doing my steps and I deleted all the nasty comments. You know, that's the thing. Like, I don't, I don't like, you know, for me, like the social media. It is like Hashem. He spoke to us in two ways. He gave us things that are written and things that are, or that were oral. And when I see something written, it's like, especially on my page, I have to stare at it and I hate it. It's like written in stone. I'm like, I want to treat people the way I want to be treated. I don't post nasty things, so I just, I delete them all. I block them. I'm just, I'm not interested. People want to, you know, have comments about the news then go to the news channel, not the, I'm a person, I don't need to see these nasty things, but all these, I don't know what bots were coming out or whoever, but there were so many nasty things. I have a whole thing of like hidden words of like everything that, like people were saying, I just put these words in so they can't post them.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 17:43

That's a smart way to do it, but Wow. I didn't, yeah, I didn't even think of like.

Aviva Gottlieb: 17:47

it was horrible. I was like, wow. Like the viciousness people, you know, just the nasty things. And it's fine. You could, you know, you have your opinion, you want to say what you want to say, and you know, you have the ability to talk and I have the ability to block so Have a good time and I'll block you. Right.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 18:07

You mentioned drumming before Do you drum yourself or,

Aviva Gottlieb: 18:10

ah, yeah. So that was for a special event. Actually, one of the things that's really sad for me is that I don't have live drumming here. That I use all prerecorded music. I have all, you know, drum sets and stuff, yeah. I just don't have access to the, to live drumming here. And, I, I don't drum. That's always been an issue. my, my wrists have been weak. I've never, tennis, not very good at, I always hurt my wrist every time I drum my wrists just start aching. So. Yeah, I'm definitely more of the dancer than the drummer, but it's absolutely recommended to do both so you really understand the rhythms.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 18:42

Ah, okay. Well, I guess Hashem has told you to. Put your strength into just the dancing and not the drumming. Okay. Yeah. And how I, I know that you're a very spiritual person and that you really think about the role that Hashem plays in your life. Do you speak to Hashem before you dance? Like how do you bring Hashem into your African dance? because I am assuming there is no, no mesorah, no tradition in African dance of reaching out to the Jewish God first.

Aviva Gottlieb: 19:10

yes and no. I think one of the things that we have to keep in mind, I think we just read it, is that in this parsha that Hashem told, was it Yitzchak? I don't remember the Parsha that that we're going to spread right north, south, east, and west. That was a promise that the descendants of Israel are going to spread each direction, and we forget that like Israel is a landmass that connects Europe, Africa, and Asia. And so we're all very familiar with the, I'm an Ashkenazi, so of course my ancestors went, we went to Italy and then went north. They also went to the East. Right. And we have the, in the Middle East and Bavel and also, and even Afghanistan and far and far out communities in India. Did the descendants of Israel also go to Africa? Why wouldn't they have? And I think that's what gets lost. And we are going to see that more and more as we enter the days of, the redemption. how could it be that this continent that is connected to Israel, how could it be that there are no descendants from there or they're just from South Africa? The ones made their way that way. And you see, I mean, I'm also connected. With, people who are from, Nigeria, from a group called Igbo, and you'll hear more about them. Unfortunately, it's still very controversial, and I say unfortunately because they have an oral tradition of circumcision on the eighth day, a tradition of ritual of Taharat HaMishpacha ritual, purity keeping knives clean on cutting meat and other traditions. their traditions are, based on,"omenana", which means what to do in the land. And they've retained a lot of, different traditions of what, was done in the land of Israel. This is a group that historically, when, the, majority of the Jews, or if we call them Jews, Israelite, went to Bavel. There was a group that went to Egypt and then from Egypt traveled, through, west Africa. And settled along the Niger River and in areas like Nigeria. So there's a lot in there. I say controversial because, this whole idea of who's a Israelite or Jew has descendency Has caused a lot of, problems'cause rather than I think people approaching it with an, Jews approaching it with a spirit of curiosity or a lot of approach to like, no, they don't follow Halacha, they don't have the Torah. They weren't given the, they don't have the written Torah. the DNA evidence is still debatable. So that's why I say it's, it's controversial and I hope

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 21:40

fascinating

Aviva Gottlieb: 21:41

in time, you know, I hope in time that, yeah, that there's more, openness and just curiosity and more evidence or whatever it is that people need to see, so these are the Igbos that are 60 million. Okay.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 21:53

so how do you bring Hashem into your dancing and you're, think about other women.

Aviva Gottlieb: 21:58

So that's a good question. I think just as like a Torah observant Jew it's like, isn't that how we live our life? That like everything that you do is infused with Hashem. Like, so it's not like a separate thing. Like you don't go, you come out of the bathroom, you say a bracha like, thank you Hashem from making my body whole.. Like, you walk every four steps in Israel is a mitzvah. Everything is just so. How could you do anything in life and not think of Hashem? So I think that there's may, there are certain dances I'd say like specifically, you know, when it's a holiday like Tu b'Av, there's like a dance I have in mind. There's like a dance of love,

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 22:33

holiday of love.

Aviva Gottlieb: 22:35

So there's like a dance I have in mind that I think, oh, this Afro Haitian dance, the dance is a Congolese dance. It's a very flirtatious dance. It's a dance of love. Or Pesach, is a dance of freedom. And actually there's a Afro Haitian dance called ibo, which is known in Haiti as the dance of Freedom. And it was taken, it was the ibo and Igbo are the same people. Ibo Igbo were taken in the transatlantic slave. To America and to Haiti. And so the Igbo people, it's so interesting that there's a dance called The Dance of Freedom that's called, the Igbo tradition, which actually when I, that like totally blew my mind. And then I started like binging on like Ibo dance on YouTube. I'm like,'cause the Igbo dance that I know, the Haitian dance. I was like, are there steps that are like. traditional Ibo dance steps, and I really didn't see so many or any. I don't know if that's debatable. Maybe that's another conversation. But the dance itself is called Ibo, which is Igbo. And so I'm like, wow, I'm actually like, there's that, and then there's just like the things like, okay, I think for me there's certain months, like Cheshvan is a month of water, it's a rain month, so there's a dance that I always feel very connected to the, to water in that, that's like another. Haitian dance. So I just bring it there and then started

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 23:55

Cheshvan in Israel is when the rain starts. So that's been Wow. Very interesting.

Aviva Gottlieb: 23:58

And then there's like specific, Pesukim and Perek Shira that like really resonate with me on the dance. The dance, uh, movement like earth, fire, water. And I've been teaching African dance now according to the four elements of the world. And I'll recite these perakim from Perek Shira.'cause there's, they're very deep, and like, connected or, or like specific animals in Perek Shira. Like I just, I see it in the dance, so I'm like, okay. Yeah.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 24:26

I think you need to do a course on Perek Shira and the dance at the same time. That's so cool. Like what a dance, like what do you wear to dance? Your, your mirpeset, your porch. It's a private area. You face the woods, right? So you could really wear whatever you want, but what do you wear?

Aviva Gottlieb: 24:42

people do, people do wear whatever you want. I prefer just to dance in, b'tzanua, you know, that's in a tznius fashion. I also post my modestly dance on social media. So I prefer to just always, you know, dance, covered and, you know, I just, so

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 24:56

what does that mean for What do you wear when you dance?

Aviva Gottlieb: 24:59

Comfortable clothing. So, I actually, there's a, like, I mean, locally I, I didn't real, like I, I have a, I've been to Kosher Casual, so I bought a lot of their stuff, and so like their workout stuff is great. Like, it's super comfortable to wear.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 25:13

That's great that you mentioned that because we have an upcoming giveaway of their sports skirt with leggings attached coming up, so that's, that's cool that you mention that. Shout out to Kosher Casual.

Aviva Gottlieb: 25:25

sometimes I've had women come to my dance class wearing wool sweaters. I'm like, no wool sweaters. Like, it's itchy. Like who wants to sweat in wool? You know, just, just as like you're going to, the gym. Anything that's comfortable. a lot of women. when they exercise, like to feel as comfortable as possible, so they don't like to wear skirts. I, I, personally, am very comfortable wearing, skirts as I would, you know, outdoors. I, I find it very comfortable. I don't have an issue with that at all.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 25:50

Do you do any other forms of exercise aside from the dance?

Aviva Gottlieb: 25:54

Not really, not so much before I got into the dance, I used to jog and it's so funny how people are like interested in other things. I just like, for me, like running, it's always kind of been like. Why am I running? No one's chasing me. Like I just, I don't really feel like the running I would do with earphones, but then, I don't know, I'm so like tech, I'm like not very technically savvy. I went once I got my new earphones and it didn't have like those. Ear pods that you can put on the thing that you can put on your ear, like it's so uncomfortable. Those things you stick in your ear. I'm like, I can't jog with these things in my ear. like,

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 26:26

okay, I love that. You found your thing, and like you just, that's your deep dive is into dance. Yeah. what advice do you have for women who are intrigued by what you're saying?

Aviva Gottlieb: 26:34

Do it, Do anything. I, I think for me, like as a baal teshuva and me just being so into the dance, I, I, I find it very interesting that some women are really uncomfortable dancing. Like they really, like a lot of women struggle with that. Like, I don't want to move. I feel so uncomfortable, and I just. And I think there's certain women that really, that teach and really focus on that to bring women out of their shell. Like for me, I just, I really don't understand it. I don't understand, like, I think also as a baal teshuva and like becoming more frum where you're, where you're constantly being told this is what you do in public and this is what you do in private. You can't do this in public because you have to be modest in public. So then why, if you're in private, why do you have to be like that in private? Why can't you be yourself in private? If you're like putting on a certain persona, like, okay, it's Simchas Torah. I'm not going to go out and dance with the men, but now you're with the women, so why? Why hold back be you, be all of you. Like don't hold anything back. You're just with your sisters. Like you're in like a safe, good environment. Just be yourself. Why can't you be yourself?

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 27:40

That's terrific. Wow. Do you ever teach on Zoom?

Aviva Gottlieb: 27:44

I've tried a few times. I think I'm just, maybe it's the age, in my fifties. I really just need to ask chat. GBT. Why doesn't my Zoom work with my speaker? I put my zoom is not connected. My zoom is not connected to my computer. I turn on my computer. it won't play the stupid thing. if I spend 10 minutes to figure it out, I can't figure it out.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 28:02

As I like to say. May it be your worst problem in life. And my other bit of advice is, aside from chat GPT, ask your teenagers, maybe some of them can give you a hand.

Aviva Gottlieb: 28:10

Exactly.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 28:11

Before we end, I wanted to give people a link. If anyone would like to make a donation in your honor, what organization would you like that to?

Aviva Gottlieb: 28:18

Sure. So if anyone was interested in helping out, Igbo, there's an organization called Kulanu and when you, if you, were to give a donation, you can, earmark it specifically for a different community so you can, earmark it for the Igbo community.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 28:33

Well, that's beautiful. Okay. So you'll give me the link, I'll put it in the show notes. And what final thoughts do you want to share that maybe I didn't ask you?

Aviva Gottlieb: 28:41

Remember that Judaism or Yiddishkeit, it's all, it's about being a light to the nations and it's about keeping the mitzvahs and the mitzvahs that we do it as Jews are very Specific, the whole, there's a whole corpus of just the seven Noachide laws. Right. And there's so many universal principles in the Torah. And I bring to my dance, I bring out those universal principles. we learn universal principles of Torah through the dance that are accessible to everyone. the wisdom of the Torah is for everyone. It's not just for the Jews, it's for the entire world.

Ellen Z. Goldberg: 29:20

Aviva Gottlieb, thank you so much. That was so beautiful. I learned so much. You've expanded my horizons. Thank you. And thank you for the wonderful things that you're doing in the world.

Aviva Gottlieb: 29:31

You're welcome. It was a pleasure.

Speaker: 29:35

Thanks so much for joining me on this episode of Frum Women in Motion. If you'd like a copy of today's show notes with links to what we talked about plus photos, so you can put faces to the voices, follow on social media, or send an email to FWIM613@gmail.com and if you are a frum woman in motion, I'd love to hear from you. Maybe you'll be my next guest. Until next time, keep moving forward.