The Near Miss Years: Jonathan's Journey to Freedom

How many times did you think, “This isn’t great for me”… and then decide it was “not a big deal”?

In this episode of The Alcohol Myth Podcast, Ellen interviews Jonathan to unpack his full story: the early moments where alcohol became tied to belonging and vulnerability, the decade of warning signs and near misses, the exhausting “alcohol math,” and what finally helped him change without needing a rock bottom.

If you’ve ever felt stuck in that gray space where life looks fine on paper but alcohol is quietly running the show, this conversation will land.

In this video, you’ll learn:
- Why alcohol can feel like the key to connection, especially for men
- What “near misses” look like and why they keep people drinking for years
- Why “rock bottom” is a myth you do not need
- Why moderation rules and “red lines” often collapse
- What alcohol math is and how it steals your presence
- How grief can reopen the door and why relapse can feel automatic
- What changed when Jonathan got the right tools, not just willpower

Connect with us:
Email: thealcoholmyth@gmail.com
Jonathan: https://livecreativeaf.com/
Ellen: https://ellenbiggscoaching.com/

Subscribe for more episodes on pulling back the curtain on the alcohol myth.

Chapters
0:00 The near misses and the quiet fear
1:39 Why this episode exists: who we are and why we’re here
3:02 First drink and the belief: “this is how we connect”
8:02 College and the service industry: alcohol as belonging
11:06 Japan and drinking through loneliness
16:49 A decade of “I’m fine” and dangerous close calls
23:54 Why you do not need rock bottom to change
25:50 Moderation rules, red lines, and why they fail
29:14 Alcohol math at the Renaissance Festival
32:24 The breakdown that led to This Naked Mind
42:09 Grief, relapse, and how alcohol takes over again
51:49 The second turning point and why coaching tools matter

#AlcoholMythPodcast #QuitDrinking #SoberCurious #AlcoholFree #ThisNakedMind #AlcoholRecovery #MensMentalHealth

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And it's really embarrassing to talk about, but I don't know. There's just like so many times in between when I was thinking, hey, this is not so good for me. And I was alternating between like, hey, this isn't so good for me, or oh, it's not a big deal. And like in those fluctuations were many times where the entire trajectory of my life could have changed. Um and the trajectory of my life was good. Like I'm I'm so fortunate that you know I've I've been successful in in academics and education, and um, I've been successful in my professional career, and I've been successful in um my my family. I have a beautiful, loving wife who like is you know stuck by me through everything. And you know, I have like deep, loving, caring relationships with my family, and um, there's so many good things that all could have just disappeared in you know the flash of an instant um because of this stupid drink that I just like couldn't figure out how to live without. Why does the world act like alcohol is the answer, even while it is creating problems of its own?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

On the Alcohol Myth podcast, we pull back the curtain so you can see what's really going on with alcohol and what life could be like without it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

We are coaches trained in this naked mind and effective liminal psychology who fell for the alcohol myth for decades. Now we help people take back control of their lives by changing their relationship with alcohol from the inside out.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

You don't need to wait for a rock bottom. You don't need more willpower, you just need a new way to understand what you are feeling and why you are reaching for that next drink.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

So let's dig in.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Hey, and welcome to the Alcohol Myth Podcast, where we talk all things alcohol and we work on debunking the myths around alcohol that we have been sold our entire lives. And I am here with you today, Ellen Biggs, one of your hosts, and we're doing a little something different today. I've got Jonathan here with me. Hello, uh, my co-host. And um, today we realized we've been recording these for the last several months, and we never really did an introductory um conversation about who the heck are we? And um why are we here and what are we doing? Uh so we thought we would start um by interviewing Jonathan today and getting a little bit of his history with alcohol, his story, and what made him want to be a coach, made him want to ultimately do this podcast with me. So um I get the opportunity to interview today, and uh, we're gonna get to learn a little bit more of our lovely co-host, Jonathan Ball. So welcome, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Thank you. I'm excited and nervous at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Me too. This is a different format. So let's just uh shake off the nerves and uh and get right to it. Um, so maybe you could just start by um sharing a little bit about your introduction to alcohol. Like what were some of your first experiences with alcohol?

SPEAKER_03 3:11

Well, there's a little bit of family lore that goes that my first drink was as a baby, my grandfather dipping his finger into some wild turkey and giving me a little taste of it, and uh my mother freaking out about that, which I mean, understandable. Um But I think that my growing up, alcohol didn't have a huge presence in my family. It wasn't something that I saw just all the time. Uh, we I grew up in a very conservative area, um, very devout. And alcohol was kind of one of those things that like other people did, and it wasn't really something that we did. And it was around, like, you know, like every now and then my dad would have a couple of beers, or like I'd see my uncles or grandfathers having a couple of drinks. But it was rare that I saw anybody that was like really turning up or anything like that. Um my first real experience with alcohol didn't happen until I was like 16. And I went on a scuba diving trip with all the men in my family. And this is like was such a a seminal, kind of like defining coming of age moment for me. Um, where I mean, I've got my dad and I've got three uncles, and my grandfather, my dad's dad. And scuba diving was something that we all did. It was kind of like the the man hobby in the ball family, and um it was wonderful, like being able to go on scuba diving trips with them and you know, experience that adventure and that physical activity, and we're going out and you know, doing semi-dangerous things and having these crazy experiences, and it was it was really wonderful. Um, but this this Florida trip in particular stands out as like one of the first times that I ever really had something to drink, and it was Tom Collins. Um, my uncle Dennis was making a bunch of Tom Collins, and I wanted to partake, and I think that there was like a you know, my dad wasn't going to get in the way of me being able to partake in this like obviously like coming of age ritual with the men kind of thing. And I I I appreciated that, and I still appreciate that. Like, I think that like socially in that moment, that's I there would have been a lot of resentment if I was like stuck at the kitty table and I wasn't allowed to partake. Um and but I also like I definitely came into that experience, like feeling like I had something to prove, right? And so I wanted to show everybody, like, you know, I'm I'm a man, I can drink these Tom Collins, the most manly of drinks, um, like you know, like anybody else. And so I just remember drinking a whole bunch of them and you know, feeling weird and walking up and down the beach and um having these like really wonderful, open, vulnerable, connecting conversations with my uncles, who I always looked up to, but had never like had a genuine or deep conversation with. And it was felt so good to be in that spot and to be treated like a peer and to hear some of their life story that I'd never got had access to before. And it was just a really profound time. And um, I don't know that I like kind of thought about what I was learning at the time about what alcohol is and does, but it definitely I think laid the foundation for like this is how you can open up and be vulnerable, and this is how you can connect deeply with people that are important to you. Um, and I think that that would kind of continue to be a theme in my drinking uh as it progressed later on. Um so then yes, I think that like I didn't really drink that much after. I mean, from like I think it would just like occasionally if we were on a scuba diving trip, there would be some some of that. And that was like a once-a year thing, right? So it wasn't really a huge deal. Simultaneously, I was carrying this belief that like, oh, like that's something also that other people do, like we didn't really do that, except for on this rare occasion. And so like already there's kind of like the um, I don't know, the paradoxical like mental gymnastics of like uh, you know, if other people do it, it's a problem, but if I do it in this context, it's okay, kind of thing was starting to show up even then. Um, and then freshman year of college rolled around. I went um, you know, four and a half hours away to school, and it was the first time I was really kind of out on my own and like figuring out who I was outside of the family unit and like the area that I'd grown up in. And I'd really kind of like I discovered so much about myself and like so much of life that I just taking for granted um is so different. It's a time of discovery, right? For anybody going away to college. Like, that's kind of the point, right? And one of those things was like, oh, it just like, you know, you can I don't have to wake up at the crack of dawn and be at church three times a week. And I don't have to, you know, like I can go have drinks with my friends and it feels sophisticated and stuff like that. And so, I mean, not that anything that we were doing was sophisticated. I mean, we were playing King Cup and um Circle of Death and things like that, but I made a lot of friends and was exposed to a lot of different ideas and just like different kinds of people. And again, like in that time of deep, like kind of social connection, alcohol was always present, right? Like so, and we had so many super late night conversations, you know, like talking about deep, vulnerable things, and alcohol was always a factor too. So I think that kind of defined my my early drinking, and then it just kind of kept on, right? Like that that's something that I just did for a long time without questioning it. Um, I was a bartender for a number of years, and anybody that works in service or industry, like you know that that's kind of the lifestyle, right? It's like it's hard-gotten, fast routine cash all the time. And you know, you get out super late, and so like you want to make the most of the time that you have to relax. And so, like, you go to the after hours place. And um, I ended up getting a place uh that was downtown in the little college town that I was living in, and it was a beautiful loft, but like it what happened was that it kind of became the hub, right? Like it was where everybody would kind of begin and end the night at our place because it was downtown. You could just walk, you know, wherever you needed to go. If you needed to crash for the night, then you know we could put you up. And it was kind of like that was the the spot, and I loved that, right? Like, I love that my place could be this like um spot where everybody could again like come and hang out and socialize and connect, right? Like, I'm just kind of hearing myself say connection over and over again. Um, because I think that's what I was looking for.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

That real piece of belonging that you were introduced to with your uncles and your dad and like feeling adults, which is also a big thing about going to college, too, right? It's like, oh, I'm an adult now, and this is what adults do. This is how adults connect, right? That's the myth. That's this is the the alcohol myth, you know, that we that we talk about here. But yeah, it makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

That's it's also um during this time too. I spent uh a good chunk of a little time abroad in Japan, um, as part of my undergraduate studies. I minored in Japanese, and it was a really jarring experience where I was totally disconnected from everybody and just like on the other side of the world. And I had friends over there for sure, but um, I mean, the most of what we did was drink anyway. But in the absence, like I had long stretches of time where I was just like on my own, and you know, who hung out with me no matter what was drinking and like it was alcohol, right? Like I I could just uh you know watch pirated television and drink my Johnny Walker or my beef eater, and I had very few responsibilities like because I couldn't really work over there on the visa I was on, and I just like I didn't really have much going on. And I look back on that time, and it's hard to not be frustrated with myself that I didn't do more. I guess I wasn't, I didn't have the skills or the maybe the courage then to go out and find actual like positive social connection or um put myself out there, or like the the wherewithal strength or courage to just be okay by myself and go out and sightsee and this like wonderful opportunity that Japan represented, you know, like how often am I on the other side of the world? Not that often. So I don't know that Japan was kind of a weird experience as well. But um, I think that for me, like the I started to notice things taking a turn while I was still bartending and like in the restaurant scene, um, kind of after undergraduate and uh even during some of my graduate work, I have a master's degree in English, and um I was still bartending at that time. And I just started to notice like most of the time I was still having fun while drinking, but I started to notice that it felt like something that I needed to do more than I wanted to do. And I was starting to notice too, like other people didn't drink like I did. I kind of took it at first as a badge of honor that, or like, you know, oh I'm I'm the tank, you know, like I can, I'm the big happy, funny guy that can just like drink everybody else under the table and we'll still be up at three o'clock after everybody has left and you know, still going strong. And, you know, that's just what I do. Um but I started to kind of question like, you know, what's everybody else doing and why why is everybody else able to just be like, oh, I'm good. And I'm like, well, you know, we could just keep this party going. And they're like, no, I got stuff to do. I'm like, but what if we just kept going and then did whatever we had to do while we were hungover, right? Like that was kind of that was kind of my thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Never wanting it to end, right? Like never enough. Yeah. I can relate to that.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

And so that was that, that was kind of like the start of like, oh, I don't know about this.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Yeah, I'm curious how long. First of all, I think it's so cool that you minored in Japanese. I didn't realize we had that connection. I didn't minor in Japanese, but I've studied Japanese since I was in middle school. So um have not practiced it. So I'm not sure how much we would be able to, not middle school, high school. Not sure how much I would be able to communicate with you, but I have a have a few words that I still remember, but that's so cool that you also study Japanese. No wonder we have all these like commonalities.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

We really do. Also, what kind of high school did you go to that had Japanese?

SPEAKER_01 14:55

I know it was really unusual. It was a cool situation. It was a it was a white woman that taught. It wasn't even a Japanese person, but she had gone over after World War II as part of the reconstruction of Japan, and she worked for the US government, and she was completely fluent in Japanese, so it was just a really unusual opportunity. And so I grew up in the DC area, so um there were a lot of international people around. Yeah, but it was an unusual thing for a high school to offer Japanese back in the 80s. I mean, this was in the 80s too. So um that was which is part of the reason I took it because it was such an unusual opportunity, but um that's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

I wanted to do Japanese because it was so different, you know. Like the entire I mean, it wasn't a romance language, I didn't have anything that you could just like lean on, and I wanted to experience a totally different way of communicating and understanding language, and it was more like it was more that angle. Like I had tons of friends that were super into Japanese culture and anime and things like that, but I was like geeking out about just how different it was, which is really fun.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Yeah. And having to learn to write and read a whole different I mean, it's not even letters, right? Like it's it's challenging too. So it's also a an additional challenge from like a romance language or something.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

We should practice Japanese together.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

That would be fun. See what I remember from 30 years ago. Um, I was gonna ask you when you were saying when you first started having inklings of like you might be drinking different from other people. And I'm just curious, like, how long were you like how how long did it take from those first inklings to like really feeling like I gotta get a handle on this? I'm not enjoying this anymore.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Um, I don't know, like probably more than 10 years. Like I think that I went through times where it was something that I would worry about or notice, and then I would, you know, take a couple of days off or a week off and be like, eh, I'm fine, I was blown it out of proportion or whatever. Um, I also like looking back, I can't tell you how many times I had like serious near misses that would have completely changed the trajectory of my life. Like, I think about a time where I was um it's super embarrassing to talk about and like it's very, very cringe, but like on a 2 a.m. burger run to Crystals and like had been drinking and got a flat tire, and um a like a security guard came over and happened to recognize me from a class that we'd taken together years ago. And I was insistent that, like, oh, you know, like it's fine. I'll just, you know, I'll just change the tire and be on my way. And he was like, if you do that, I'm going to call the police, and I don't think you want me to do that. And so, like, just him extending me that grace while I was drunkenly trying to talk him into letting me go get my burgers, was like, it's so cringe to think about now. Or, like, I mean, there were uh times where you know we'd overdo it in Japan and have like we'd miss the last train back and have no money for a cab. And so we're walking back from the next town over on you know a Japanese country street, and I went to go relieve myself in some bushes, fell into the bushes, and then woke up the next morning in said bushes when my friends didn't even notice that I had fallen off. Like I'm glad I'm I I'm I'm so grateful I wasn't hit by a car, right? Like, I mean, just anything could have happened. And there are probably you know, 10 or 20 other times where something it seems like should have happened that would have had like some kind of crazy either like health or physical injury to myself or encounter with the law, and that would have dramatically altered my entire life. And I'm so I don't know, I see people who are um, you know, like get brought up on DUI charges or you know, like have some kind of accident or whatever. And I just like I I can't help but to have compassion for those people because it just as easily could have been me so many times over. And it's really embarrassing to talk about, but I don't know. There's just like so many times in between when I was thinking, hey, this is not so good for me. And I was alternating between like, hey, this isn't so good for me, or oh, it's not a big deal, and like in those fluctuations were many times where the entire trajectory of my life could have changed. Um, and the trajectory of my life was good. Like, I'm I'm so fortunate that you know, I've I've been successful in in academics and education, and um, I've been successful in my professional career, and I've been successful in um my my family. I have a beautiful, loving wife who like is you know stuck by me through everything. And you know, I have like deep, loving, caring relationships with my family, and um, there's so many good things that all could have just disappeared and you know, the flash of an instant um because of this stupid drink that I just like couldn't figure out how to live without.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, I I appreciate you sharing that so much because I feel like this is the kind of thing that nobody's really talking about because we all have so much shame around the stupid things that we did while drinking that could have endangered ourselves and loved ones and strangers, right? And how many near misses? I mean, I could toggle off, you know, so many of my own to share as well. I and when you were describing the Bush story, I mean, I just saw this on the news that there's a kid in Michigan who's a similar story, but he fell asleep in the bush in the middle of winter and he froze to death. I mean, this this it it so easily could have been you, could have been me, you know, and it just it's heartbreaking. Like, and it's the kind of thing that, you know, you maybe made it a funny story when you got home. Ha ha. I got it.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

100%. Yeah. And and like that's part of it, right? Like laughing off the um freak out moment. Like, you know, am I either going to take this to like examine what this substance is doing in my life and, you know, face the terror of giving up this thing that I think is the only way that I can experience happiness and connection? Or am I going to um just laugh it off? Like the Much easier thing to do is to laugh it off.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

And it's so it's driven by society, right? Because if if that had happened to you while you were doing heroin, you know, society wouldn't be laughing it off. They would be like, Jonathan, you need to get yourself into rehab, you're gonna go to jail, you know. But when we do it when we're drinking, everybody's just like, oh yeah, everybody good does that at some point in their life, ha ha ha, like, you know, initiation to manhood or you know, some whatever BS story people are selling in the moment, right? And yeah, it just I think it speaks to the the stuckness that we end up with in with this substance, because while it is actively harming and threatening our livelihood, our love, our uh health, uh, you know, all of these things, people just write it off as like, ah yeah, it's just a just a big night.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah. Well, I I love that you use the word stuckness because I think that any one of those life-altering events would have convinced me that I actually did have a problem, right? But because I didn't do a night in a drunk tank, or I didn't, you know, like have a car accident, or I didn't, I don't know, like completely ruin a friendship or something like that. Like, I mean, I damaged plenty, right? But I didn't ruin them forever. Because I didn't do those things, it's it, it gave me permission to always be like, ah, it's just not that big of a deal, right? Like, I don't really need to figure this out. And that that kept me drinking for years and years and years. I mean, probably another, you know, add another 10 years onto the calendar before I even started consciously trying to moderate. And then that was its own whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, and I want to ask you about that. I just like when you were saying you're describing like you didn't have a like real rock bottom, right? Like it just makes me think if we could change the conversation about what a bottom, let's elevate that bottom, right? Like, why do we have to be at the rock bottom to make a change? Like, geez, I mean, do we really have to ruin our life before it's acceptable to examine our drinking?

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Yeah, I just like one one of the big alcohol myths that I feel like you and I make it our mission to bust is that you need to have a rock bottom to change because real change does not take a rock bottom. And I hope for anybody listening to this that you don't wait for a rock bottom experience to start figuring this stuff out. Because once you have a rock bottom experience, unfortunately, you've had a rock bottom experience. And that does not make you in a position to like that, doesn't make you stronger necessarily, right? You're stronger probably before you've hit rock bottom. Um, before I mean a rock bottom connotates some kind of horrific experience that would then be paired with an unbelievable amount of shame and regret. And when we're feeling shame, like not I did something bad, but I am bad, it's really hard to do the kind of work that it takes to um change this on a like a foundational level.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Yeah. And we just never know. Every time we, you know, we never know when the wrong part is coming, right? You're it's like rolling the dice every time you overdrink, um, especially if there's other people involved or a car involved. Or I mean you could just fall and hit your head at home. And it, you know, like, but anyway, that's I I want to get back to your story. So you you started to question and you started to try and moderate. How did that go for you?

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Yeah, uh, not great. Um, so I guess I guess at this point in my timeline, I had met my the person who would become my wife, and I she didn't drink like I drank, right? And she she would drink very little, like she would have like a drink and just be fine. And I'm like, you know, 10 drinks in and looking for more. Um, and I started to notice that that was kind of uh a difference between the two of us, and it made me feel a little bit weird. And so I like I, you know, practic, I'd I'd play with cutting back. And I especially got there's this one time where we were what we were staying up late watching something, and we were just like laying in bed watching, I think probably Battlestar Galactica, um, which is phenomenal. Um, but I was drinking red wine and I dozed off and tipped my red wine onto her brand new comforter, and it stained it. And I, you know, I startled awake and I was covered in wine, and you know, she was furious, and that was terrible, right? Like that was talking about a near miss, right? Like that was that that did not feel good. And so that's when I started to be like, okay, well, that's probably not normal to like do that, or like to need to drink so much that then I pass out while I'm you know watching TV with my my honey. Um, and so I would make rules for myself. Like, I'd, you know, like, oh, I'm only gonna drink red wine instead of hard liquor. Uh, and that would last for a little while. And then, you know, I'd kind of like lose interest in it and I'd go back to drinking like I had been drinking. And for my for most of my drinking career, I guess, like drinking experience, I would, I don't know, I kind of went through phases. So, like, sometimes it'd be whiskey, sometimes it would be red wine, sometimes it'd be white wine, sometimes it'd be IPAs, right? Like just kind of whatever. It didn't, it didn't super matter. Um, but that's how it probably started for me. Like, I was like, okay, no more hard liquor, I'll stick to wine and beer, and you know, I'll be in the clear. There's a whole even cutesy saying about it. Um but yeah, I noticed that like over time it would those kind of rules and structures for myself would just kind of lapse, and I'd find myself being right back where I was before. Um, and then I started experimenting with time. So you're like, you know, what does it feel like if I go for five days? What about six? Can I do seven? Um, and about seven, you know, I'm like, okay, well, I did it. I'm cured, you know, I don't have to revisit that again, and I'd go another six months without, you know, having a care on the world. And then I'd have some other kind of stupid experience that would lead me to start renegotiating with myself. Um, I distinctly remember being at a Renaissance festival. My wife and I are big nerds, and we like to go to the Renaissance festival and dress up and you know, like eat massive turkey legs. And um, I noticed that like she was having this like wonderful time, and I was like watching her in this like you know, vibrant, beautiful place full of interesting people, incredible shows and music, and um, you know, like this is a big event for our family. Like, we don't like we weren't at the time able to like vacation very much. So, like this was kind of like our thing for the year was this like day trip to the Renaissance festival, right? Like, and I realized kind of towards the end of the day, like that I'd been thinking about and doing what I now call alcohol math all day. The alcohol math of being like, okay, how I've got I've got my flask because I'm going to the Renaissance festival. And how am I going to use that flask to tide me over in between getting IPAs at the beer lines as we navigate this Renaissance festival? And I'd spent all day kind of navigating, managing keeping my buzz up throughout the Renaissance festival. And I hadn't really been present. You know, it had cost me um trying to like figure out and also like I needed to land the plane perfectly at the end of the trip so that I could drive us home, you know, the the hour that it took to get home, right? So like I had to be buzzed all day, but then come off enough to where I could get us home without her raising an eyebrow, right? The mental gymnastics that it took to like figure out that, like it completely ripped me out of this moment. And I just realized like this super fun, like that wasn't fun. I didn't have fun doing that. That sucked, right? And it's and so like that's when I started to really be like, okay, this is a problem that I've got to figure out, and I don't know how to figure it out. That's the thing, is like, like we don't, it's not common for us to have tools to figure this out that aren't like a 12-step program and Alcoholics Anonymous, and I haven't hit anybody with my car, and I haven't, you know, lost a job or ruined a marriage or wound up under a bridge. So that's that's those people, not me, right? Like, I'm very professionally successful and I have a great relationship and I'm thoughtful. I'm I have emotionally intelligent. I can show up in a conversation, right? Like, that's not me. I'm not broken, but I know I have a problem and I don't know how to solve the problem. And so that's kind of that was kind of the impetus for me starting to try to figure this whole thing out.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Oh my gosh. I mean, I I relate to that so much. The whole alcohol math. Ah, I mean, how many events of the days was that? Uh yes, thank you for articulating that so well because that is just painful, right? It's painful. And that space that you're describing of being like, okay, I know this sucks and I don't want to do this anymore, but like no idea what to do. If if if rehab and AA are not places that you're interested in attending because you think that they're, you know, not for you, which me too, right? That was my story. So how did like what how did you what did you do? Like, how did you figure it out then?

SPEAKER_03 32:24

I think it took one last time of making a fool of myself. Like I I remember a time when uh it was one of those instances where I'd set rules for myself. So I think that this rule was I'm not gonna drink while I'm out, but if I'm at home, I can drink. Um because I was starting to freak myself out with driving around, right? Um, and if I was at home and drinking one of my like kind of lines in the sand, like did you ever set, like, you know, this is a red line, right? Like I I won't cross this line. And then you end up crossing them and redrawing the line and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Again and again and again. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

One of my lines was that I was going to go to bed, right? Like I was, I was not going to pass out on the couch, you know, but I would frequently um indulge in what I thought of as me time. So like I'd, you know, Beth would go to bed and then I would stay up and have a couple more drinks and play video games, and then I'd go to bed, right? Because this is like me, this is for me. This is like my time. So didn't make it to bed and in fact stayed up um most of the night, like drinking and watching something stupid on the television. And then probably, you know, five o'clock in the morning, Beth comes down and she's annoyed because I've been up um this whole time. And like that wasn't the kind of contract, right? Like that wasn't the uh the agreement. Because I would also like, you know, I'd say, This is my red line, this is what I'm gonna do. And then I break promises, so not only to myself, but also to the people I care the most about. So enough broken promises. Um, and you get an annoyed reaction. I found so like not only from yourself.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Um yeah, and so we got to- I never shared my red line, so that's interesting for me that you like had a red line and you I was too afraid to share it because I think I knew I would cross it.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Well, I mean, there were some red lines I would share, right? I had other mental ones that I wasn't sharing. Um, but anyways, like we got into like, I mean, I was like barely coherent and we got into an argument. And one of the things that I was also doing that kind of I I justified my drinking with was staying physically active. So like I had been running, so like I would always go for a run in the morning. And you know, if I was like I would if I was running in the morning, there's no way I could have a drinking problem because people who have drinking problems don't go for runs in the morning. So still drunk, having freshly gotten off an argument with my wife, feeling terrible, like actually physically sick. Um, it's also raining outside. So I go for this terrible rain run after this horrible argument, feeling like trash, and I make it to the park and just have to turn around. I'm just weeping too, like just absolutely because I feel so bad, I feel so terrible, like not only physically but emotionally, just so done with it all. And so I turn around, I go back and I apologize again to my amazing wife, and um I I just start looking into like what do you do about this that's not AA? And the first thing that popped up for me was the stop drinking subreddit, it's like R slash stop drinking. And several people there were talking about this naked mind and um how much it had changed their lives. And so I immediately got the audio book and started listening to it on my runs. And within that, I would say within that week, I'd stopped drinking, which is insane. Like, I mean, I I went into it very dubiously. The book starts out with by the end of this book, you're gonna be able to drink as much or as little as you want to. And I was like, she's totally lying. At the end, she's gonna go in with a hard sell that you should stop drinking. And by the end of the book, she you know says, like, why would you want to? I was convinced, and I I went, I just experienced spontaneous sobriety, like she calls it in the book. I did it was this unbelievable transformative experience. Um, it confronted a lot of the subconscious beliefs that I had about alcohol and what it is and what it does. And um, I was shocked at how much I didn't know about this substance that I was continuously poisoning my body with. And I was mad and disappointed that, like, I don't know, like I felt like somebody should have told me that it did all this crazy stuff in the brain. And like the information's out there, and increasingly more so. Like, we are live at such a cool time where so many people are getting this information, but at the time, you know, it wasn't nearly as commonplace as it is now.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Especially if you're not looking for it, right? Like, oh, for sure. I was looking for the opposite messages, like t tell me another time about the study about red wine that's good for you, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Like, yeah, I'm gonna save this one, right?

unknown 37:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:45

Um, yeah, so I I guess like I it was just this crazy experience, and I just like I felt like I didn't really want to drink, and I just decided it wasn't good for me. And um, I let Beth know that I wasn't gonna be drinking anymore, and she was uh dubious at first, but then saw I was serious, and she kept she kept drinking. Like, I mean, and for her, drinking too is always like I don't know, I think your husband's like this too, but like they can have a drink and it's not like a huge deal, right? Like for me, it's like one would never be enough, right? Like, I one I know I'd want 10, right? Like, that's just that's how I'm wired. I don't know. Like, it's just I've always been kind of a person of extremes, right? Like my mom would always joke if we got in the car and it was hot, I'd put the AC to a hundred, even if it wasn't that hot, right? Or if it was cold, I put the heat to a hundred, even if it wasn't that cold, right? So it's just like and that that kind of like all or nothing mentality has served me well in so many other areas. Like it's helped me professionally and like it helps me like keep going and keep pushing myself and I stay hungry, and you know, like, but in this case, you know, it was kind of a disaster. Um but anyway, I guess I mean the all or nothing thing worked for me with the first time that I quit drinking too, is like it um I just went cold turkey and didn't look back, and I maintained that for two and a half years. Um through the pandemic, like I'm so I had the universe was looking out for me because when COVID-19 hit, I wasn't struggling to keep drinking, or I wasn't trying to moderate through the pandemic, I just wasn't drinking and it wasn't a factor in my life. Like alcohol would really become just this small insignificant thing, and I actually um all of my friends were still drinking a lot, and I actually kind of like had this little smug little air of superiority when we'd hang out, right? Like they would get trashed and fall asleep, and I'd be like, huh, not I. I have transcended that, I've got that all figured out, right? Like, um it was kind of this, I'm sure it was annoying.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Uh, but yeah, that was a gift though, because that was such a stressful time anyway. And then to pile on the stress that alcohol creates, all I mean, we think it's helping us with our stress, but you know, we know better now. But in the moment, I mean, I drank all through COVID, so yeah, I can only imagine being uh alcohol free through that time and just the the peace, uh I mean, as peaceful as we could be in that time, like you at least had a chance.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Yeah. And you know, so many things came out of that experience too. Like um at that time, uh my wife and I started our first small business together. Uh, we have a publishing company, and like I was starting to create things and write and tell stories, and that's something that I'd always been interested in doing, but never had actually had the focus to do. And it's like in the absence of being drunk all the time, like so much of that started to open up. And it was it was a slow process at first, but um, it definitely I think it started around then, um, which I'm just kind of now realizing. I that's one of the reasons that my my coaching business is creative AF, is I just I I really see in the future that we're going to need a lot of people who are ready to create and to be creative and to come up with creative solutions to interesting problems that the future is um relentlessly bringing to us. And um, you know, the AF part being kind of a play on that, but like as creative as possible. Um, but also the alcohol free is kind of a the window into that.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

That's so cool. And I want to ask you more about the coaching, but I'm curious because you said when I quit for the first time, so what it tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Yeah, um I had about two and a half years under my belt, totally AF and just like loving it. Um, and towards the very tail end of the pandemic, um, my dad suddenly passed away. And it was very out of the blue. It was unexpected. You know, one moment it seemed like he was there, and the next moment he was gone. And it was just the worst thing to have ever happened to me. My dad and I um were always very, very close. Uh he's I take after him in so many ways. Um funny and just like he really taught me like how to be a good man. Like he showed me that uh being a good man was being strong and protective, yes, but also like um uh emotionally intelligent and you know, and and thoughtful and caring. And he was always so uh he was he was very funny and loved to play and it's like so full of joy, and also just like very, very, very deeply thoughtful. Like he was very careful with his words, and you know, when he was when he was saying something to you, you knew that he had like put a lot of thought behind it. And um, I just I admired and still do like so much about him and who he was and how he set me up. And it was just absolutely devastating to to lose him all of a sudden like that. And it makes me, I mean, obviously it makes me emotional.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Um I'm so sorry. And gosh, it just makes me think like how proud he would be of you, you know, with those qualities. Like I, you know, that sorry that he didn't get a chance to see what you're putting out in the world right now. Cause I imagine he would be very approving.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

I I I like to think so. Um Guess, like I I do like to think that I am honoring him and that legacy with what I'm doing now because I I am trying to bring um trying to use my words for good these days, so use them thoughtfully. But yeah, it was it was an absolute blow. Like, I mean, I just like I wasn't ready for it. He wasn't like, I mean, he'd he'd been he'd been kind of sick, like he'd been coughing and stuff like that, but it wasn't like a he's in the hospital on a respirator. Like he was at home and it was just like boom, like I don't know. Was it and it was I mean, you don't know that's it, it was not helped by that. But I'm not totally sure. And like I'll never know. Like that's another thing, too. Like, I'll never know for sure. Um but the the fallout from that was so difficult. Like things had been kind of tough uh with the with my my home, like my family life, like with my parents and like my you know, like that side of things through COVID. Because I I mean like that was a very fraught time for many families, right? Like people have different uh views and opinions on the whole pandemic situation and what's right and what's wrong, and um and you know, things have been kind of strained in that direction because I I came from this like really conservative place, and I have I'm just very different in my thinking than in a lot of ways. Um, and I wasn't as thoughtful as I should have been in like engaging in those differences too, right? Like a lot of my um communication back then was kind of like I don't know, kind of like condescending and holier than now and stuff like that. And so, like, you know, I definitely regret that. But like through all that, I felt like my dad was kind of like the glue that kept the connection there and healthy and strong. And like I always felt like I like my dad would hear me out and see my point of view on things, and he he made me feel like not such a pariah black sheep, you know, kind of outcast from my um my my home, you know, like that that was really important, and then all of a sudden that was gone, you know? And in the wake of that, too, like a lot of that stuff kind of got brought up and blown up, and there's just a lot of pain and a lot of hurt associated with his passing, and in the wake of all that, like I just didn't want to feel so bad. I was just so tired of feeling so crappy, and so I went to what I knew would change how I felt, which is alcohol. Like, I had I remember on the way back from his funeral going to eat Mexican food, it was like the first time that I'd had just like a minute of quiet with my favorite person in the world, my lovely wife, like just and it was it felt like you know, it'd been family, family, family, family, and like now it could just be us. And it was such a relief, and I just didn't want to feel so terrible, and so I just got in a drink that I would normally never get, like it was like some kind of fruity strawberry, mango, margarita thing, like because it'd been two and a half years, and I was like, I'm just gonna have this one. Um, and I think that night I just had the one. Um, but then that opened the door, right? And so, like, and you know, like the next week, I probably had a couple of beers, and then the week after that I had three beers, and the week after that I had six beer, you know, just like it just goes this like kind of once it's back in your life, it just kind of has this really insidious way of taking back over. And pretty soon I was back to where I was before. Um, and I just I wasn't it wasn't like it was a choice that I was making, right? Like I felt like I was making the choice. When I was at the Mexican restaurant, I was like, I just don't want to feel so crappy. And I made the choice to have the drink. But after that choice, it's like I stopped making the choice. It was like the choice was, okay, I'm gonna open this back up. But it wasn't a choice to like keep going. I just didn't make the choice to make sure that it was back out, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yeah. Yeah. It was like you have to then you invited it back in, and until you kick it to the curb, it just, you know, squats.

unknown 48:42

Like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

Yeah, it's just party in here.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

If it's something you're not like, I don't know. I think our society, our culture is so set up to where if it's not something that you are choosing, then it's something that's just there and it's what you do. And so because it wasn't something anymore that I was like actively choosing to not engage with, it I think the default, at least in in my circles and in my experience, is that you're a drinker. And so I just kind of fell back into the pattern of being a drinker, and that slowly kind of amped up and amped up and amped up, like again, like it was. So um, long story short, I did that, long story long, maybe at this point, but I did that for a couple of years. Um, and I just got back into a place where I was really unhappy. Like we we'd been through a lot of loss, like uh actually right before my dad suddenly passed, we lost my father-in-law, uh, my wife's um dad. And that was also very sudden. That was also extraordinarily traumatic. I was really glad that I was able to be sober and present and helpful, like through that. Um and you know, like that, that's a that's a I'm really glad and proud that I was able to do that. But we were dealing with a lot, like in the space of just a couple of months, we both lost our dads. And that, like, you know, and shortly thereafter, like, you know, we'd we lost our our dog that we'd had together this whole time, and just like it was like we could not catch a break. Um, so, anyways, a couple of years late, really dealing with a lot of grief and a lot of kind of like uh trauma like that. Um, and I found myself just like back in where I was, just like absolutely breaking promises to myself, completely consumed with alcohol math. Um, you know, like just feeling miserable and terrible most of the time, exhausted. Like, and I had started doing CrossFit, and I would like drink too much the night before and then show up to CrossFit, like just absolutely just still feeling terrible and hung over from the night before. Um, but anyways, there was there was again like one night where you know I didn't make it to bed, and uh apparently I don't remember this because I was blacked out, but apparently I fell over in the guest bathroom shower, um and could have really hurt myself, you know, just like but startled Beth very badly, right? Like, I mean, you know, somebody crashing around at four o'clock in the morning. Um, the very important thing that I was doing for me time was drinking IPAs and watching old nine-inch nails music videos, which I certainly had to do right then. So, anyways, stories we tell ourselves, yeah. It's so stupid. But um, but that morning, um, another just feeling terrible, weeping, and I was like, okay, I can't do this anymore. And so, what did I do? I started listening to this Naked Mine audiobook again, and I was I didn't want to drink again. It was like magic. And I was like, I've got to understand what this crazy brain voodoo, whatever it is, is happening. I've got to understand it. And that's when I started to get curious about being more involved with this naked mind and found out about the coaching certification because I didn't want to just like do it and be a participant because I already didn't want to drink, right? The book had already kind of like hit me with its magic hammer. Um, I really wanted to understand how it worked and why. Like, why was this working when nothing else did? And so I found out about the institute. I was one of the last people to enroll in our cohort where we would meet, um, and jumped in with two feet. And what I learned has been absolutely transformational in my life. Like, I I have the tools now that I didn't get from reading the book, which I know is going to bring me like a happy, joyous, alcohol-free life. Like, you know, and it was what I found out that I'd neglected to do the first time was I hadn't really done the the self-work, the unpacking that I needed to do. Um, I'd, I'd, I'd kind of stopped at the level of like like substance and society, and I hadn't really gotten to the core of what is it about me that I feel like is deficient that makes me want to reach for a drink? And getting unpacking that, and that's a good, that's a continuing process. It's something I'm you know actively still doing, but getting a lot of that kind of unspooled uh during our time in the institute, because like all the coaching stuff that we learned, um, anything we do with a client, we've done extensively with ourselves. And um, and so we know it works. Um, and we know it can be uncomfortable, but it's good for you. Um but it was it was really that. Like I really discovered, like I was asking alcohol to do so much and um and fill in so many gaps where I felt like I was deficient. And it makes sense that I'd be reaching for something that I thought helped me fill in those deficiencies, but figuring out like, oh, I don't need to carry this belief that um I'm worthless if I'm not working harder than everybody else, or I don't need to carry this belief that the only time that I can open up and be vulnerable is if I've you know had several drinks beforehand. And you know, like there's just so many kind of underlying beliefs and underlying alcohol myths that were impacting um how I was showing up in the world.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

And yeah, I mean, that last one, like that was like from the time you were 16, you started to believe that this is how we connect and open up, especially as men, right, with other men. And yeah, I mean that that that's what I think is so cool about the the methodology that you know that this the book you know talks about, and then of course the programs that Annie offers, and then the coaching institute that we learned. It's like you can take a belief like that and really pick it apart and see is it really true? And like all, you know so now what do you think about connection and vulnerability and alcohol?

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Oh well, now I know that all the things that I was outsourcing to alcohol, I had inside of me the whole time. And that alcohol is actually the thing that gets in the way of genuine connection because it blocks you from tapping into and accessing and living in your authentic self. And if you're not engaging with somebody else from a place of authenticity, then it's not great connection anyway. And that's that's one of the things that I really found out about myself as it related to alcohol, was like I hadn't I was convinced that the real me wasn't good enough or worthy, or you know, like that nobody really wanted the real version of me. They wanted the version of me that was doing them a service or showing up and being entertaining, or getting, you know, like 10 projects done when everybody else was doing one project, or you know, like I thought that my my worth was so tied up in my utility to other people. And through this whole process, what I discovered the kind of deep unlock for me was that no, my worth is me in myself and my in my authenticity, and it doesn't come from somewhere else, it comes from inside of me. I'm inherently worthy and lovable, and that's something I just could not see when I was drowning in alcohol. And I I really believe that's one of the things that I'm that makes me so proud to be a coach is that I I think that our world needs people who are ready to show up in their fullness and in their authenticity and um ready to be wholehearted and open-hearted. And like, you know, I think that I think that we're you know coming into and are currently experiencing some like very fraught times. And these times are going to call for people and leaders who are truly tapped into who they deeply are and who they're meant to be, and and ready to express that to the world, and and that's one of the reasons that I coach.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

I just think it's so cool uh on so many levels, but it's like I think about like because I went through one of Annie's programs, and um first of all, most of the people through the programs are my age and older, so I'm in my 50s, you're in your 30s. Um a lot of the people in Annie's programs are women, although there are a fair number of men, and it just it makes me so like full of hope for our futures as a people that people like you are, you know, successful, smart, articulate, realizing that their full potential can only really happen alcohol-free and the willingness to go out there and talk about this stuff. I mean, I think it's it's hard enough for me as a woman to talk about this stuff, but women are a little bit, they get a little bit more of a pass for being vulnerable. I think men have a really hard time in our society, like really opening up and sharing feelings and discussing things that they don't feel good about themselves, you know. And I just, I just it's such a honor and a privilege for me to be able to be on this podcast with you and and and to hear your full story. This is my first time hearing it as well. And um really I think I just appreciate you so much because I think what you're putting out in the world is gonna change people's lives and and uh we need it. We you know, we need it.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

Thank you, Ellen. That's very kind. I I genuinely believe that there are a lot of guys. Like I'm glad you mentioned like the guys in the alcohol-free space, like there are a couple of names, but you know, there could be a lot more. And I think you're right that there's a lot of there are a lot of people who have a lot of things to say to guys, but they're not necessarily the people that I would pick to be talking to guys, right? Like it's there's a lot of um, I don't know, like unnecess like over machismo and like just kind of one-dimensional ways of being a guy, and you know, like you gotta hustle, you gotta grind, and you know, like and that message has its place, I guess, but it's so over-represented in the in the discourse. And so like I really hope to kind of, I don't know, I just I guess it makes me think about what we were talking about earlier with my dad and like being um thoughtful with our words and our language and and using that for good and for healing. And um I I really do aspire to be a guy who can show up and like talk about this stuff. And I hope that in being open with my experience, it will invite other guys to be like, yeah, I I get that, or like, you know, that's me, or I'm not alone. Like just the the realization and this whole experience with alcohol that you're not alone, and so many other people are questioning like the role that alcohol is playing in their lives, and like, and good news, you don't have to experience a rock bottom to change things, and good news that if you figure this thing out, there are so many other things that are gonna open up in your life, and there's so much goodness on the other side of it. Um, I really I truly believe that's why that's why I stayed doing alcohol coaching too, because a lot of people that go through the coaching training that we've had, you know, like they they talk about alcohol or maybe they start in alcohol, they don't always stay in alcohol. But I really believe that if you have a relationship with alcohol that is giving you even one kind of hitch in your spirit or giving you one kind of like a not so sure, figuring that out is like to me almost a prerequisite for everything else that comes. And um, in figuring this out too, like you're gonna open up things in your life that you had no idea were there, no idea that were impacting you, and you're gonna learn how to start really choosing and writing your own beliefs that are gonna be so much more supportive and helpful for building the life that you want. So it's just there's it's so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Yeah, it really is. And and I I want this is maybe a two-parter, and maybe you need one part or two parts to answer it, but I'm um I'm curious like how your life has changed now that you are free from alcohol. Like, what would be some key things that you would point to that are different? And yeah, and I mean then my second question is gonna be like who who you know, who do you like to help? What what what kind of a, you know, tell me a little bit about your coaching. Um but I think those are two separate questions. So let's start with like what is yeah, what what what does life look like now versus when you were drinking?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

I think the biggest change in my life has been the mental clarity that I experience every single day. I don't have the constant alcohol math chatter going on in my head. I'm able to be fully present and fully engaged with uh people that I'm around or like fully engaged in the work that I'm doing. Um, my my productivity and my just capacity to accomplish my goals has just skyrocketed since getting this whole alcohol thing figured out because I'm not distracted and feeling terrible all the time. I actually sleep well, you know. Like I am actually seeing great progress at the gym because I'm not sabotaging my success by drinking six IPAs on a weeknight, right? Like there's just so many things that have um that have come out of getting alcohol free. And and I'm I'm more professionally productive and successful than I've ever been too. Like I, you know, not only is the the publishing company that my wife and I started doing well, I I have a day job that's continued to be very, very um, I've been very successful with and just like I'm really, really enjoying. And that's another thing too. Like, there have been times where like I'll be working a day job and just like, you know, in the past, I'd be like drinking to forget the day job, or because of the stress of the day job. And you know, like I just had this like really negative story around um the day job. And when I stopped drinking, it was like, no, I can actually shift my perspective on my day job and understand it for all the great benefit that it's bringing me. And I can still like have aspirations outside of it, but now I don't, I'm not constantly, you know, mentally beating myself up or telling myself this negative, disempowering story about having a day job. And that better energy is actually allowing me to pour better work into the other things that I'm doing, right? So, like just it's it's being able to like reframe a perspective like that and to be like, oh, I actually can choose not to be suffering at this, you know, objectively wonderful job that I have. But when I was drinking, I couldn't see it that way, right? Like it was like uh, oh, I need to unwind and you know, oh, now I'm too drunk to make progress on my after hours businesses and things like that. Right. Like, no. Instead, I can joyously and happily go to work all day. And then I am delighted to come home and I can build the things that I'm excited about building for the future. Right. Like it's just like the lightness that I can bring to that is so empowering.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

Like it goes from being like groundhog day every day to being like, oh my God, what do I get to do today?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Yeah, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

It's kind of wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:27

Um, you were asking about the the coaching that I do. And most of the coaching that I do is with guys. Um, most of them are kind of just like me. Like they're um, they tend to be driven people, they tend to be professionals, um, and they tend to be thoughtful. So they're interested in doing some interior work and like, you know, they're they're open to, if not entirely comfortable with, uh being vulnerable with me and um kind of getting into the emotional side of things, because um neuroscience proves again and again that our emotions are the gateway to lasting change in behavior. And you know, if drinking is something you're trying to figure out, then the surest way to get it figured out is to be able to tap into um how things feel. And and that's something that has been very effective for my clients. So um yeah, that's that's kind of the people you're ready to work with.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

You have a gift for making people feel comfortable talking about emotions. I can imagine, you know, because that's a scary thing, you know, for women and men, but maybe even particularly men. So to find someone that you can feel safe showing that side of yourself, opening up to. Um yeah, I'm grateful that you know there is a space at is it what what is it, your website? Creative?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

My website is livecreativeaf.com. It's not my favorite. I wish that I didn't have the live there, but it's okay. L-I-V-E-C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E A F dot com is the website. And I've got a new course out that I'm really excited about. It's a totally free course. It's called the Alcohol Reset, and it works through uh the like kind of foundations of this method um and a five-day course so people can kind of get a taste for um what it's like to actually dive into this work.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

That's super cool. And we'll put all those details in the show notes so that if you're interested, you can find Jonathan and find his program. But um, this has been such a pleasure for me to kind of get to know you a little bit better. And I appreciate you sharing all of that with me. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you would like to share before we close?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

I don't think so. I just uh I'm very grateful to be doing this podcast with you, Ellen. And I really can't wait to hear your entire story too, because I've been yammering for like an hour and I can't wait to hear your details.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

Yeah, well, we will do that next time. But um, yeah, thank you so much. And um, gosh, can I close this thing? Jonathan usually does the open and the close, but let's see. Um just thank you all for listening. If anything here resonated, if you can think of anybody that you think would love to hear Jonathan's story that might resonate with him, might need to hear that they're not alone. Um, we hope that you will share it with them, pass it along. And um, yeah, we'll just say goodbye till next week. And thank you for for listening. Did I miss anything, Jonathan? What else do I need to say?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:49

Nailed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

All right, we'll see you next week, y'all.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:54

Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to the Alcohol Myth Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:00

If this episode sparked something for you, we'd love to hear about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:03

Send your questions, stories, or ideas for future episodes to thealcoholmyth at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

We read every message. We really do.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Take good care of yourself. We'll see you next time.