The Family Dynamic That Quietly Destroys Marriages

We grew up hearing that marriage should last no matter what.

No one talked about what happens when it turns toxic.

In this conversation, we dig into the quiet struggles many couples face but rarely admit out loud. We talk about family pressure, shame, and the expectations that can keep people stuck long after a relationship stops being healthy.

And the truth is… some of the biggest problems don’t start inside the marriage.

They start long before it.

If you’ve ever wondered why some couples stay unhappy for years, or why certain family dynamics feel impossible to escape, this episode will make you see things differently.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why many couples stay in unhealthy marriages much longer than they should
• The hidden family dynamic that can slowly damage a relationship
• Why waiting too long to fix problems can quietly destroy intimacy

This conversation might challenge a few things you’ve always believed about marriage.

And it might change how you see relationships moving forward.

Chapters: 
00:08 – Setting Up the Conversation
02:22 – Introducing Today’s Topic
03:23 – Why This Work Matters
06:12 – The Expectations Placed on Women
07:15 – The Reality of Toxic Marriages
09:40 – How Trauma Passes Through Generations
11:12 – The Family Dynamic That Creates Conflict
15:44 – When a Marriage Gets Caught in the Middle
20:55 – The Stigma Around Divorce
24:29 – Can Couples Actually Heal?
31:08 – How Kids Survive Toxic Homes
33:23 – Why Cycles Repeat in the Next Generation
40:13 – When Couples Wait Too Long to Get Help
48:12 – Resources Couples Can Start With
55:19 – A Message to Families and Parents

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to In Session with Nat and Ann. Today on the podcast, we have a really, really special guest. We are super excited to have her on with us and to answer so many of our questions that we've been thinking about for a long time and topics that we've been wanting to cover for a while. So we thought no better to do it than Miss Tiffany Tota. So, Tiffany, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

So nice to meet you both and to be a part of this exciting project. I'm really excited to be here. We're happy to have you.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Tell us a little bit about yourself and introduce our audience to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, so my name is Tiffany Tota. I'm a marriage and family therapist. I uh have been in practice for over 20 years. And over the and then two years, about a year and a half ago, I started Community for International Arab, which is a platform focused primarily on uh emotional health and wellness topics geared towards our cultural experiences and understanding. And it we've grown tremendously since then, and uh it just keeps growing, and the community is so special, and we really talk about things that we don't talk about necessarily as a culture, and we give each other space and support uh to be able to have these discussions like the one we're about to have.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Well, I love that. That's kind of like what we wanted to start with our platform, and we love that you are somebody who can come on and share that with us and share what your line of work is. So that's awesome to hear.

unknown 1:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

That's absolutely incredible. What do you feel like influenced you? Because you come from an Arab background as well. So, what do you feel like influenced you to take that leap of faith and go into the mental health route and you know help others who are struggling with their mental health?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Well, mental health was my second career uh as a first-generation Palestinian American. Uh, back then, uh, we were uh really career was not the focus. It was about getting married and having children and building a home. So I pursued marriage and I mean, excuse me, I pursued human resources as my first career with the idea that it wasn't necessarily a career, just a layover until I find the husband and get married and do what a good vint ought to be. Well, that didn't happen. And uh so I started, so over time, because of the cultural messaging and everything that I was going through from an emotional health and wellness, I decided that human resources was not anything that was in alignment with what I wanted to pursue. So I decided to get a degree in marriage and family therapy. And that's it started from my own healing journey and really seeking what was what cultural messages was I receiving and how was impacting my mental health. And then being of service to others in that way. So that's that's amazing. Where it came and what happened.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

That's very inspiring. Yeah. And I like that you mentioned, you know, that us Arab women have the expectation of, you know, just getting married. Like there's no expectation of finding a career for yourself or building your own platform or doing your own thing. It's mostly like, okay, she's gonna find headless, and then they're gonna move forward and have children. But nobody ever talks about like, you know, the hardships of those expectations and like what that can bring. Because sometimes we fall into something and we don't really think about, you know, like, is this the right person for me? Or is this person in alignment with my values and my morals? So we kind of wanted to start off the podcast by, you know, introducing the topic of toxic marriages. And we wanted to ask you, what are some unhealthy dynamics you've seen in the marriages you've worked with over the years?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

So I think one of the biggest um harms that I've seen is people staying in these harmful marriages and hiding the abuse. Uh, we come from a very shame-based culture where honor and reputation and what people will say would override emotional well-being. And that's one of the biggest things is that when there is abuse or drug addiction, or when there is uh gambling addiction, or any of the addictions, pornography addictions, you know, these things that happen in marriages, uh, one, or it's not just women that stay, but the men may also stay much longer than what's healthy for them as well as the children. Uh, the other um, I think, unhealthy thing that I've seen uh within our cultural context is the enmeshment with the families. So it's not just the couple, it's like the couple and the his parents, her parents. It's like everybody is getting involved in this couple's um marriage, which can cause significant stressors. I think those are the two biggest things that I see is enmeshment with the family and then hiding uh varying addictions or abuse.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah, I agree. I think there is a big, big, um, especially when you said shame, the shame, um, the idea behind shame in our culture is so significant, and especially in in marriages. And I think we we talk about it all the time, how we're also trained in our families of like, if anything is happening within the household, no one can know. Like nobody can know. We come off as this, like, we present as this perfect family. We're all perfect, we have it all together. Our parents are so in love, all the siblings get along. Like, we're perfect. But behind and no one can know behind closed doors. And I'm wondering about like the effects that that can cause on, you know, especially if there are children involved, of like, well, I'm I'm feeling so much about this. My parents aren't gonna do anything about it because they don't want to get a divorce. Because what will people say about us? But I'm also struggling and I can't even confide in my friends or my family about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

That's right. So, what you're speaking to is this trauma transition that happens, and you know, generational trauma is the big buzzword right now. And this is where this unprocessed trauma will show up that many parents, because there's such a high stigma around divorce, that somehow uh they failed when some it takes an act of courage for two people to say, hey, this is not working out, and for the health of ourselves and our children. So a lot of times out of families will um, there's that's where it comes to excessive anger, anxiety, uh, hyper control, emotional numbness. And so, and this does get passed down to the children. And so uh when you have two traumatized, like you come from a traumatic family system, and now you're married and you have two traumatized nervous systems married together without healing. Well, that's a pretty volatile mix. And then that just gets transferred from one generation to the next uh until someone who is the cycle breaker in the family says, This is not working. I'm going to uh divorce. And then that comes with a whole other set of dynamics.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah. Something else you mentioned that I find very interesting and I see in a lot of Arab families was the enmeshment of families. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how that's presented and what that looks like typically?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, so we have to remember an era. So, first let me preface by saying I want this discussion to be this from enmeshment to empowerment, that when we build healthy marital boundaries within our culture, it's there are many Arab marriages that are stable, loving, deeply committed. Our families are deeply committed. So, what we're what we're speaking to is these certain structural and cultural dynamics uh that are common and risk dysfunction. And so, this enmeshment that we're speaking to with the extended family, in-law interference, we hear that a lot, loyalty conflicts. I know growing up it was dar imik, you know, is hikabuki hik, and you and you see these loyalty are conflicts, um, lack of privacy. So I know we make a lot of jokes that in Arab families there's not a lot of boundaries. Well, yes, and it's because of these lack of boundaries and lack of privacy that causes a lot of marital dysfunction. The other piece to this enmeshment is financial entanglement, which I don't so a lot of families have businesses together, they have properties together, they uh they are in the same home. And so what tends to happen is uh these boundaries become very loose or very weak. And then for the couple, it becomes they're not the primary team, that everything else in the family is is the team. And so the result of that is chronic tension, which we see a lot between the families. We also see triangulation. This usually occurs between son and mother and the wife, right? So if you think of a triangle, right? The the mother gets involved between what is happening with the son and her daughter-in-law. And that can happen for a variety of reasons. And so, part of what I'm going to encourage anyone who's who's married, and for the mother-in-law's and father-in-law's family, to ask themselves, you know, who actually holds the power in the marriage? You know, really looking at the couple. Is the couple having the power in the marriage, or is it the extended family system? And if it's the extended family system, well, because of this enmeshment, there's going to be a lot of fighting, usually, a lot of fighting, a lot of divided loyalties, a lot of deep, deep, deep resentment that nobody talks about. And then if somebody mentions something, then it's seen as disrespectful. We emotionally suppress. Usually it's the wife that gets pinned with me, hey, who is she? What is she saying? Versus uh perhaps these things are coming up because she there's a preservation of the couple that's being harmed.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, I actually I see that a lot within like Arab households where the wife starts to feel secondary. And it's like it's not like him and her versus the world. It's like the world versus it's like them versus each other. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

And I think that you forget that that's what a marriage is. It's us against the world. Yeah. And it's it's kind of what would I just like kind of like thinking about like what people would respond. And I'm wondering, like, anyone that might come to you and say, Well, Tiffany, like, I don't know how I would get out of this enmeshment. We've been enmeshed for years, and he puts his mother on a pedestal, let's say, and like, who am I to get in between? Or I I don't know how to break this enmeshment. How do I, you know, work through it? What would you recommend to a couple that that is going through that?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

So depending on, so in we'll use this example, if it's the husband's mom, where there's an enmeshment and he is prioritizing his mother's needs over, because that's what we were the mother's needs, always come before, even if she's toxic, unwell, creating manipulative dynamics, the mother's needs will supersede his wife's needs. So when I'm uh working with an individual, I say the the repair is on the husband to set the boundary with the mother. So if I'm working with the wife, I say to the wife, this is not anything you can fix. Because if he's not ready to set those boundaries with his mom or to gently let his mother know, you know, I love you, and you will all I will always be there for you, and it's gonna look a little different because now I have my own family.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

That's that's his task, not hers. I see too many young women try and solve a problem that's not theirs to solve. So the husbands really need to step up to uh to let mom know that this is whatever the behavior is or whatever is where's causing the tension.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

That he needs to fix that.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah. No, I totally agree. There's a big sense of accountability that needs to be taken and just accepting, accepting, like, you know, some people might be like, oh, well, it's not that, it's not that big of a deal. Like, I'm not that enmeshed to my mother. She's not that involved with everything, like you're being dramatic. I think there's a sense of like just acceptance and like recognizing, like, hey, this has been a big problem for us in our marriage, and then take the steps to to work through it. And I love that you said it is that responsibility, if that were to be the case, on the husband to have that conversation with his mother.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

No, I I let I let the men know because I have so much empathy for them because they are literally caught in the middle of this dynamic, which is profoundly difficult. So it's not lost on me how hard it is. And then they're expected to take on the role of protector and guide, and maybe they're financially supportive of their parents. And what all I mean, what what Arab men in this dynamic, what they have to go through is terrible, and they don't even have the skills, no one taught them to skills to even remotely manage any of it. And there was so much emotional suppression that for them to even admit that this is hard. I mean, we need to manage expectations that uh for the wife to manage expectations that it may take him a little while to really understand the dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Right. Yeah, right. It's so hard. It really varies. Yeah, yeah, and patience. It takes patience and grace and like and self-awareness too. I don't think a lot of people are as self-aware as like you know, the the new generation. Like, I feel like the old generation, they understand things are hard, but like I don't think they understand what the situation at hand is. And I think that's the hard part of trying to tell an Arab parent, like, hey, this is what's going on. Yeah, and you need to fix this. Yeah. But it's just like, I don't think they have that, like, or I don't think they want to, or I don't think they know how to or how to seek for how to seek help. I think it's very like we said, like, hush, hush. I go through it alone in the dark and I try to manage the way, but it's just like, no, like, hey, the children are suffering too. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

And I think that's what becomes such a problem when it comes to divorce. Like, let's say, like, you know, there is a couple, like, you know, that knows, you know, this is just not for us anymore. And we would be better apart than together. But then it is that, like, okay, like this is really hard for the kids, but maybe it's better for the kids if we stay together. Maybe, you know, for their reputation, for their sake, we should stay together, you know, even though I'm miserable, I'm unhappy, this is not working for us. Maybe it's best for the kids. And I think that's something that I really kind of want to talk about today, too, and like get into of that divorce stigma and how it has affected, you know, so many families, um, and the and the children, if there are children involved.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Well, before we move into that, in with all due respect to the Arab parents, most Arab parents will tell me of the older generation, we just didn't know. We just don't know. And I think they are trying, many in my experience are trying to understand the way in which they move is all they know. And so for them, you have to remember, we come from a shame-based culture. So if they're they're thinking they're moving in a way that they're trying to be helpful and loving, and they're they're they're thinking they don't realize it's poor boundary and maybe meddling or too much. They're coming from a good place in their heart. And when you call them out, that maybe they could they need to shift, or maybe this is making people uncomfortable, or maybe, you know, when they go over to their son's house, that they're not cleaning out the fridge, or you know, taking over the daughter's, you know, their daughter-in-law's home, they're thinking they're being helpful. Uh, once it's brought to their awareness, a lot of it, a lot of Arab parents that I've worked with uh are open, yet we also have to be patient with their shame of doing something wrong. I think it's important for the generations to really understand that the parents carry their shame too. They carry their own traumas, they they are they've been in survival mode for so long. All they know is their family. For many of our mothers, all they know is their children and their family. And so for the couple and the daughter-in-law, uh, provided the mother is uh not because there's some that are really unwell. Okay, so we're not going to go to the extreme, we're kind of going in the bell curve, right? The ones that are just in the middle. That for for the daughter-in-law to also understand that to be patient with the parents process as well. Okay. I I think that's really important for us to to highlight because I think it's easy to go into like Arab parent. Um, you know, that the problem is always the Arab parent and how they move. And it really is a dynamic between the generations and how to better communicate with one another.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Oh, I totally agree. I think that was such a that's such a good point. I think we we tend to forget that a lot of the times because we get so frustrated, you know, that like, how do you not understand? Like we are in the United States and it's so different now. It's so different these days. And then it it really we we we forget it so easily. So it's really important to take that into consideration.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah, yeah. That's all they've ever known. It's all they've ever known. And they carry their own traumas too. So I think it's it's hard, like we said, it's just a hard process. But I believe it's possible. And I want to know in your perspective, like, do you see results in Arabic households or like moving past these traumas or moving past these like like um the dynamics, the unhealthy dynamics?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yes, I have. It takes a lot of work to listen to the expectation. So when there's you talked about divorce for a couple to Really move through like to stay together and to move through the and it takes two him doing his own individual work, her doing her individual work, and then doing couple work. If she's not open to therapy, or if he's not open to therapy, you can't row a boat with one oar.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Right.

unknown 22:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Very true. Right? And so sometimes men in general may be more open to starting with couples therapy. I said, okay, meet him where he's at. If he feels more comfortable with the couples therapy first, provided there's no significant intimate partner violence. Uh and also, like again, extreme of narcissistic personality disorder. Like it's so we're talking again, the bell curve. Uh it's fine. But yet if they're not doing the work individually, understanding their triggers, uh, the likelihood that they can overcome these things on top of all the cultural things, it's extremely difficult. That's why we're seeing so many unhealthy, toxic Arab marriages, or so much dissatisfaction in the younger generation, uh, because it takes a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

And what would you say to the children within these that are living in these toxic households or the toxic marriages? Like, how do you give them, like um, I guess, you know, some words of, hey, you're gonna get through it? Encouragement. Encouragement. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

I let them know it's not their fault that there's you could be the perfect child, you could be the scapegoat, you could be whatever your role is in the family, because you're responding to these toxic uh marital dynamics, it's not your fault. But what is your responsibility is to say, how can you not internalize these dynamics so that it impacts not only your own life and your relationships, whether it's a romantic partnership or even in your friendships or your work relationships. So I let people know straight up, like, yeah, your parents, you probably would have been better off if they were divorced. Yet what they also know this divorce stigma within our culture is uh I've because I've seen it this dynamic many times. The Arab family, if if somebody gets divorced, the cousins are like, oh, their parents are divorced. Oh, Hadoli, they're Hadol, right? Look at them, they're the with the divorced parents, yeah, right? And so that that also it's not their shame to carry, yet they're carrying this shame. Yeah, and it's really important for us as a society and as a culture to really shift that to say if people divorced, that's part of life.

unknown 25:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

We don't even look a lot of times, these people didn't have choice in who they married. A lot of times they were that they were maybe reaching a certain age and they married somebody just to please the family without really thinking through is this the right partner for me. We also don't talk about, and this is going to be heavy, and my apologize, my apologies to the viewers, a lot of Ara will hide mental illness, drug addiction, porn addiction. They will hide, they will say, they will show that their child who's of marriage that they're perfect, right? This idea that look how great they are, hiding from the family, the you know, merit, the family that they're marrying into, all the dysfunction. So we all have so then now this poor woman is, or usually in those cases, it's hidden with the man in my experience. Well, I've seen it with the woman too, but the person is left with how come he's like this? What how come what are you doing? And she's like, What? I just I just married this person, and I didn't realize all of this until after we got married. So, do you guys see it's not just about the unhealth, it's what happens before that's leading up to some of the dysfunction. And so if you're a child of this dynamic, I let all the kids know. Habibi, habibti, please, you look, I know how hard it is. Part of it is how do we get you to survive and not get so enmeshed in this toxic soup because it's only gonna hurt you. It's only hurting you.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah, that is wow. I think when you said, how do we get you to survive? That hit really deep for me because some of these poor kids, it's like I can't control my parents, right? Like I cannot make them separate, I cannot make them work it out. And it's like they feel powerless a lot of the times because they are children and so they don't have a voice or may feel like they don't have a voice sometimes. And so they literally don't know how to survive in these, like, what do I do? I can't escape, I can't run away, I can't leave. So I love that you preface it by saying, first of all, it's not your fault. Like, I think that is very big for a lot of children to hear because a lot may feel that way in those situations, you know. Um, so yeah, that just that really hit. That was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Well, I also I also think what I've seen is the dynamic where this the son becomes the surrogate husband and takes on healing the mother or taking care of the mother for the for many daughters. I've seen when there's a toxic or very unhealthy parental dynamic, that she's with the role of the peacekeeper, making sure if she's the eldest daughter, taking care of the younger siblings, making sure everybody is okay. Yeah, she becomes the parent, she becomes the parent, yes. And then how does that impact her later? Over functioning, hyper-functioning, uh overcorrection of partners, overcorrecting, taking care of everyone and everything, and then she has nothing left for her own husband. Oh interesting, and then you wonder then there's disconnect, lack of intimacy, because she's giving so much of her energy to everyone and everything that typically the partner is last, or for the man, he's trying to take care of his family, the provider, and then he has nothing left to give to his wife because he's working 16-hour days, right? Right, and so you see that it's not just uh the cult, it's the systems that that also contribute to um uh these dynamics.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah. Do you typically see the son kind of repeat the cycle? Like um, kind of what we talked about with like the mother-in-law and the wife and the and the husband, and then the son, he starts to be the emotional um capsule, I guess, for the mom. And then that they become like enmeshed where he feels like he needs to take care of his mother, and then the cycle repeats with him when he gets married. Do you typically see that?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

I I do see that, although I do see that the younger generation of men are, at least in my experience, are more aware and more connected. If anything, I see younger generation of the NAC, the young women, becoming more rigid in their mindset, not taking any accountability for how they're moving in the dynamic. So it's really interesting to see from a generational shift, uh, that um that sometimes the young men may be more open to fixing or to solving these things.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Really interesting. Yeah, I never would have thought of it like that. But I when you now, as you mentioned it, I'm like, wow, that is something I'm actually seeing more. That the women like in this younger generation have been more rigid towards like that is true. It's all him. I haven't done anything wrong. Like, like it's his fault. Like he can work on it, he can blah blah blah and suck.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Yeah, I mean, we're one to talk. Well, these dangerous narratives that I've seen where again, we it takes two can't row, it's what's the dynamic between the two? And so I know we've gone too far on this side of blaming men for everything, yet, where's the accountability to say what's my part in this dynamic? That's true. And so, going back to your question around divorce stigma, you know, many times in our Arab culture, depending on what community you're from and how enmeshed it, I mean how close-knit the community is, you know, leaving can be socially catastrophic for people. Right.

unknown 32:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I think we don't, you know, especially, so that's why couples, because they're so afraid to bring shame to their mama and baba or their or their lineage.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

That couples will stay long after the relationship is dead. Many will divorce once the children are of age, 18, 19, 20. Uh, I've seen that where they, okay, now that my kids are launched and they're in college, now I could be free.

unknown 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Uh or they wait. Um and staying does not necessarily equal healthy, because I always tell uh arab, I I also I divorced. Uh and you know, uh you get words like ich haram shofai, you know, iqsara, you know, and I thought I'm a waste for because of the divorce. Right. However, one thing I can say is that it's better for your child to have two healthy parents separated than two unhealthy, unwell parents together. I agree with that wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah. And so for the Arab girls that are, or even the guys that are out there, uh, you know, thinking about divorce and worried about what the NASA are gonna say or bringing shame upon the family, I would say, you know, you'll be today's news, you know, you'll be the talk of the town for a good, you know, couple months. Yeah, after a while, they'll move on from you. That it's not this catastrophic thing that eventually it's more important for you to focus on how to co-parent, how to engage in the divorce healthily. And sometimes the families can get involved, and again, this enmeshment, they can make divorces very, very messy, yeah, especially when money is involved. And I really encourage all, you know, if you're thinking about divorce and you're worried about the stigma, there may be a stigma, and focus your efforts on ensuring that your children have a smooth transition, that you and your partner mediate things with the least amount of uh conflict. And this is really important to set boundaries with the family, don't get them involved because everyone's gonna have their opinion, and that can cause a lot of anxiety, which then clouds judgment.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Right. We've talked about that. Yeah, we've talked a little bit about that. Yeah, and I think like um to add to that, I feel like it I it might feel very catastrophic to a lot of families because it's not only like we're living with the extended family, we're living in community too. Right. So it almost seems like, oh, well, how do I go to this function without like my husband? Or how to or what's gonna happen at Christmas? What family am I gonna go to? Or like, are my children gonna go? It's like a whole thing and a whole dynamic that gets so messy, yes, and so almost lonely. Like it feels like you're being separated from ostracized from society when it kind of happens that way. But sometimes it is for the best, and I think, or unless we can all get together and find some self-awareness and do the work, yeah, then hey, there's a chance.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

You know what I think I also like, I love that you you brought that up. I I see a lot of women or men typically don't seek couples counseling until, especially Arab couples, until they've reached their absolute max. Like the point where it's like there is no return from here. I am emotionally checked out, I'm mentally checked out, and it's really heartbreaking because it's like almost like, man, like it took that much hurt and pain for for you know for you to come to that decision of because it's not an easy decision, of course, divorce in general is not easy, but for you to to separate, it took every every every energy in you to get to that point. So usually when I see I see some couples that are just like couples counseling is not gonna do much at this point, like I am out of this um completely and there's no going back for me.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

It's like they've developed that chronic contempt that, like, yeah, I just cannot look at you. I cannot, I hate you. And so it's just like how I can't come back. How do you reverse that? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

I don't know if you can.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Can you reverse that? Well, so let's go back a little bit. You know, what's important to understand is these patterns are not uniquely Arab. Right. We see similar dynamics in Southeast Asian cultures, uh Latin, Latino culture, you know, conservative religious Western communities, you know, immigrant household under stress. Like this is not, this is structure and psychology, not necessarily an Arab thing. Most couples, by the time they come to therapy, it's almost like uh, what what do they say? Like when you have a gash, and instead of going to the hospital right away to get it sewn up and put the salve and make sure that it's clean, that most people, uh, I mean, sorry, when you get a cut, right? And people wait till it's like they wait until it gets infected and becomes this huge gash. And so I always let couples know I'm a firm believer in premarital counseling. And even if you're not open to like therapy, at a minimum, do some premarital counseling to make sure you are all on the same page on your values and all these things. Most couples wait because they think tomorrow it'll be better. Uh, you get caught up in the kids, or we're so busy, we can't work on this, we can't work on that. And then two years later, there's no sex, there's no date nights, there's no intimacy, and then now you're expecting to reconnect when too much time has gone. So I always let couples know, address things early. How do you know it's early? The moment you're like, I don't like his face. Right now, there's points in a in a couple, like, you know, you're not gonna, there's points where you're like, but once it reaches where there's that disdain, you want to go into couples counseling, you want to address it early. But most people think they're delusional into thinking that they had proper modeling. Can't believe I just said it like that. You know, it's like we have these delusions of grandeur around how integrated we are, and we're just not. Yeah, we're not, we're not as healthy as TikTok and Instagram and all these little reels. Uh, we're just no, we're all messed up. Well, I know I call it, you know, what I what I call human beings, we're a beautiful mess. Yes, yeah. There, that's a better way to say that's a nicer way to put it. And and not to, you know, not to overestimate your triggers, uh, not to overestimate your awareness. We have a lot of psychological language, which people have been weaponizing. I think couples, well, you're a narcissist, or uh you're this, or we start to weaponize it without really leaning into the deep, or you're triggering me. Well, what's your responsibility and understanding your trigger?

unknown 40:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

So these are the conditions that become toxic when we wait too long and there's no shame. I always tell couples, they're like, Tiffany, I feel so ashamed. I said, How much modeling did you get from your own parents?

SPEAKER_03 40:57

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

And they say none. I go, well, how are you supposed to know healthy couple communication when your parents were yelling there was toxicity in the household? Uh like Shuyani, you're gonna get this information, Menilahawa? Like you needed proper modeling, yeah, and we didn't get that. So it's okay to go to the people, to the experts. With that said, vet couples counselors make sure you get a referral. I have a joke. Um nothing binds a couple closer than when they have a really terrible couples counselor.

SPEAKER_02 41:39

That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

You know, I said, okay, well, let's avoid that and really find really kind of and and a couples counselor that is, if you can find one from our community, like uh uh Arab community, uh it's gonna be really important that they have that they come, that they have the training and knowledge of a collective culture, because when collect collectivism, patriarchy, trauma, shame, intersect, marriage strain increases. And unless the counselor is aware of all these dynamics and layers, uh it that's probably what I see the most effective therapy.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

That makes a lot of sense. And I think like in grad school, I mean, we I took like one class on cultural competency, and like that was that. Like you don't really have much training, or you know, it's literally like one class.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

And so I think it's yeah, it's really important to kind of truly understand like every of course cultural thing. So it's just like, yeah, it's like one class, you they don't really go into it.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

No, they don't go in depth about you know the the different cultures and and the and certain dynamics, but how much can they really go into?

SPEAKER_01 43:05

I think it takes like putting yourself out there and actually going out to learn. Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Yeah. No, that's a really good point. And finding a good couples counselor, I think, is really difficult. A good therapist in general, and it's really sad to say that, but like I feel like it's everyone also like clicks with a different personality, you know. So it's like I always also like to tell clients like, don't try not to be put off from therapy over one appointment or one therapist. There's a therapist out there for you, you know, and just like try if you can, like, try and try again until you find the one that clicks with you. Um, so I think the same goes kind of with couples counseling as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

And yes, and what you're speaking to is cultural humility, right? And to and even, well, don't get me started, because that's another topic for another day. Even in graduate school, as an air as And Arab, uh, wow, their lack of cultural anything for Arab was horrific. Yes. Horrific. So uh, so anyway, we'll pin that. So, what does that mean? What does that mean to your viewers? Uh Rim Vet, uh, the therapist, uh, I would encourage people to get a referral. Even even your your imam or your priest, or you know, the religious figures, they the the religious leaders, for those sometimes people say, Well, Tiffany, I don't want to go to a therapist. I said, Well, is there another support that you can go to? Even an elder, where they're provided they're healthy and neutral and are able to guide in that way. I don't think therapy is necessarily the only route. Uh, however, it's important to vet whoever it is. The main point is to get support from people who have knowledge of this.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

Yeah, I definitely agree. What other resources would you, you know, guide some of our viewers towards if, you know, they they feel like maybe they don't really have a support system they can confide in and they don't really want to go the route of therapy just yet?

SPEAKER_00 45:22

The beauty about the internet is that there are multiple podcasts, there is so many resources that couples can do. Uh, one, I mean, there's so many books. I I professionally and personally like Dr. John Gottman and his work uh in the field, you know, the seven principles for making marriage work. I let couples know, okay, if you guys can't afford couples counseling, because it is it is expensive, uh, then at a minimum, both of you choose a book or a podcast and you watch it together and dedicate time like you would 90-minute therapy, couples therapy session, to dedicate that 90 minutes and make it a priority for the two of you to understand your communication styles and listen to a podcast or read a book together and then discuss it. Oh, here is how I show up. Here it, oh, I didn't realize I was gaslighting you or I didn't realize I was stonewalling, right? And because I got triggered when you said that, and then they can work through it. There's also the couples therapy workbook. So it's again, even with AI tools, you can, you know, go to Gemini or any one of those things and uh say reflective questions for couples. Now, for the ladies out there, I'm letting you know, do not flood him. Don't flood him. The gals, there'll be like 15 questions, and my clients will say, Tiffany, I wanted to go over all 12 questions. I go, no, just one. Don't flood him. He's like probably like never talked about feelings in his life, and now you're 12 questions. Start with one. Just give him one question and then you discuss it. And I think what fosters, I think that's where a path moving forward, number one, is dedicating time where you're not talking about the household, you're not talking about the children, you're not talking about family stuff, you're talking about what are your dreams? What, what, how do I move in the world that can make you feel more safe? How can you move in the world to help me feel more safe and connected to you? Have fun. Couples are not having fun. Go and let loose, have fun, explore one another emotionally, physically. I know as Arab, we don't talk, he sexy, yeah, I have a shum, but it's it's it's it's a big part of intimacy, and yet here again, we have to go back and say, if I was taught to be ashamed of my body, if I was, and now you want me to open myself up, so a lot of arab, there are a lot of issues in the bedroom because there's so much shame. I can't maybe there's exploration, yet there's shame on either his part or her part to explore because they were taught that that was what I am what do you dirty? So you guys can see that the path to move forward is to go within for the couple to a acknowledge address things early, to know that there's nothing wrong with seeking help. There are so many resources, choose one, just one podcast, one book, and and get the skills for the Arab parents listening to this. I'm going to ask you gently and lovingly and compassionately to allow the couple to make their own decisions as a as a unit and trust if they need you that they're not going to abandon you, they're not going to leave you by doing their own thing. If anything, they want to be closer to you. And that takes I know that's scary because you have to trust something you don't know, but in leaving the couple to have them figure it out, what you're giving them is not only autonomy, but you're also giving them an opportunity to create their family based on what they know. Does that mean you were wrong or that you did? No, that's how we build generations is improving upon what you have done, which was beautiful, solid, all the things you've sacrificed. Then let them carry that and create more of what they know. And with each generation, we move through this generational trauma by not staying stuck in these old archaic ways of thinking because we're not in that world anymore. And it's okay. There is not one adult child of Arab that does not want to be near their family. Not one. Even those that have been severely abused and in horrific situations, they want family. It's embedded in us. And so yet uh if we continue to not give our children autonomy, the very thing you're afraid of will happen. They won't want to be around you because they uh they have to choose between their family and you, and at some point they're gonna choose their family. So try not to force them into that choice. Be open, be curious, let go. Pull yourself back from inserting these opinions unless they're a danger to themselves or others. Let them do what they want to do.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

That was beautiful. I was really in tears. Like that moved. Who was holding my tears back? That moved me so much. And I think I think I I sense myself getting kind of emotional because I related to a lot of what you were saying, but at the same time, like it just our culture is so beautiful and there's so much beauty to it, you know. Yeah, of course, we have our issues and our flaws, but what culture doesn't, what person doesn't? And it's just like such a beautiful reminder, you know. To you know, I have that appreciation for it because I do love my family. You do always want to be around your family, but it does get to a point at times where you have to make a harsh decision if that were to be the case. And I don't know, that was very beautiful, and thank you so much. That was a beautiful reminder. Very beautiful. We appreciate you being on. We are so grateful that you were with us and you were able to share your knowledge, your expertise. Um, we're so grateful for it. So thank you so much, Tiffany, yeah, for being with us today.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

We really appreciate it. And for me on my side, that moved me a lot because it was like I'm going into my season of marriage, and what you said really, really resonated because there is that almost that guilt of like, oh, I have to leave my family behind to, you know, fend for themselves. And it just like, I shouldn't be thinking like that. I should be thinking I'm going in to create a new life with my husband, but I also have my family, and that is a blessing. And so it's it's a very nice reminder for me. And I really, really enjoyed having you on today.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

I am so glad. And thank you to the both of you. Uh, you you the you guys inspire me every day. It's the younger generation that keeps me doing what I'm doing. I am so grateful uh for for being here and being a part of this together. We all heal all the generations, Ma Bad, as one people, we heal, Ma'abad. We don't separate from one another, but it takes patience, understanding, and the courage to admit that maybe we don't know things.

unknown 54:45

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Maybe we don't know things. Maybe we don't know things.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

I'm gonna go with my name.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

I love that. Thank you so much, Tiffany. We, for all of you guys watching that are introduced to Tiffany for the first time. Maybe some of you guys know her from her social medias. Um, I know you're active on TikTok, on Instagram, YouTube as well.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

YouTube as well. You can find me every Wednesday at uh what time does my assistant have me on? 8 a.m. Pacific. So we do Waddech Wednesday, 8 a.m., uh, where we talk about uh emotional health and wellness topics. So it's you hop on, it's a live, it's one hour. Uh we we come together as a community. I this uh this Wednesday, for those that are interested, we will be continuing to talk about uh how to empower ourselves during these times. And so those are the topics. The YouTube has lots of free content. I've got tons on uh Arab relationships and uh different the mother wound, the father wound. So for those of you that even want to explore some of these issues with respect to your uh partners and your relationship, there's lots of free content there for you to take a look at.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Perfect. That's beautiful. We will be checking it out. We will be checking it out and we'll link all of that for you guys as well to check it out. Yeah, lots of yes, you know, we love three things up.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Of course we do, we'd never say no. You guys have a wonderful, wonderful thank you again. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 56:23

All right, bye, that's all for today, guys. I'm in such a