Without Mental Health, Nothing Else Matters — Joey Kolirin on Depression, Suicide & Addiction

Featuring Joey Kolirin 

Without mental health, nothing else matters. 

In this deeply honest episode of the LIVEMORE Podcast, I sit down with Joey Kolirin to explore depression, OCD, addiction, suicidal thoughts, and the hidden struggles so many people carry behind closed doors. 

Joey shares his personal journey through mental health challenges — from therapy and hospitalisation to food addiction and the internal battles that most people around him never saw. This is a raw and unfiltered conversation about what it really means to struggle, and what it takes to begin rebuilding. 

We also explore the deeper connection between mental and physical health — including the role of exercise, sleep, routine, dopamine, social media, and the pressures of modern life. 

Because you can have the physique, the career, the money, the habits, and even the biomarkers — but if your mind isn’t in a good place, none of it means what it should. 

This is one of the most important conversations I’ve had on the podcast. 

If this episode helps even one person feel less alone, start a difficult conversation, or ask for help — it has done its job.  

🔍 In this episode, we cover: 

•  Joey’s experience with depression, OCD, addiction, and suicidal thoughts 
•  Why men often suffer in silence 
•  The difference between looking okay and actually being okay 
•  Addiction beyond drugs and alcohol (food, dopamine, compulsive behaviours) 
•  The role of exercise in mental health — and why small steps matter 
•  Sleep, routine, and nervous system regulation 
•  Social media, comparison, and the modern mental health crisis 
•  Identity, shame, and the masks people wear 
•  What it really means to live well 

 
📲 Connect with Joey:
 
Instagram: @joeykolirin
 
 
🎙️ About the LIVEMORE Podcast
 
Conversations at the intersection of longevity, mental health, and peak human performance — exploring what it truly means to live well.
 
 
🤝 If this resonated with you:
 

•  Follow the podcast 
•  Share this episode with someone who may need it 
•  Leave a review to help us reach more people 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Most people default to drugs, alcohol, gambling, things that have a very negative connotation. Like they won't default to the gym being an addiction. Basically, addiction is a dopamine in it to cover pain. You can be addicted to drinking water, you know, you can flood your kidney. I reckon upwards of 90% of people are addicts.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

If you're in such emotional distress, that might be a step too far to get someone to actually go for a run, go to the gym. How do you get them a step closer?

SPEAKER_02 0:29

They don't have to be seen or take over the world. It could start with one press up. It could literally start with just getting out of bed, same as the gym. Keep putting the reps in, and eventually the muscle is going to experience enough strain that it will grow.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Joey, welcome to the Little More podcast. Thank you. The purpose of this podcast is to explore peak human performance and longevity. But all of that is irrelevant without sound. If you don't have good mental health and mental clarity, all of that is pointless. So I'm really excited to have you on today to explore your experience of mental health, and in particular, which you've spoken openly about depression. So with that said, I'd love for you to introduce yourself. I very much admire your work. I see you post a lot on social media about this topic. It's not spoken nearly enough. And I think a lot of people go through uh depression, and um, it needs to be spoken about a lot more, particularly in men. So, with that said, can you kindly introduce yourself and what is it that's made you so passionate about this topic? I understand that you're someone who's experienced this first hand. Do you want to give a little bit of your story and your background?

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Um love the studio and your work as well. Um, and I think I felt intimidated coming over because I was like, Rob's just so healthy. Um and you know, I go to the loo and I'm like the products, like you can just tell that I know you've asked about me, but your life's work is embodied in what you do. Um, so genuinely big respect and thank you for inviting me. Um, yeah, so Joey Colleerin. Um I I used to hide it all basically. So I don't want to use the word suffered because I think part of what I do is learning the conditioning that you give yourself. And you know, if you walk around saying I've suffered or I've I've got sometimes that can eat away at you and condition you so much, a bit like going to the gym, you know, or conditioning bad or positive behaviours. Um however, for the sake of my intro, I'm gonna say I've experienced uh various mental health things for 20 odd years, um, or knowingly for 20 odd years. I think when I've been through therapy, I've realized it's been most of my life I'm uh 41. And yeah, I used to hide it. Um, you know, I've known you a long time, I'd see you at the gym, I'd never say anything necessarily about how I'm feeling. Um, but those were very dark times. And I've been in and out of various hospitals, in um private hospitals, in NHS hospitals, which uh was probably the worst two weeks of my life, that particular episode. And my diagnosis has been depression, addiction, uh borderline personality disorder, which I hate. I mean, you know, it's like yeah, what's wrong with me? Oh, you've got human being disorder. I'm like, all right, cool. You know, it's just it's an odd name. Um, so yeah, I used to hide it, and I guess just I felt it was just the biggest weakness, and I felt like a fraud. I was walking around, you know, seeing people like, hey Rob, how you doing? Yeah, all good, blah, blah, blah. And on the way home, I'm like, he he doesn't realise I want to kill myself. So yeah, I guess my passion is I don't want people to feel how I do. Um, I want to try and make a difference. And I think the fact I talk about it a lot on my social media, the the fact that pierces me the most is that one man dies by suicide every minute globally, and I always relate it to the fact you know, we've been taking 10 minutes to set up, we've been talking for whatever, three, four minutes. During that time, 14 men have died. Unbelievable. That's shocking. Yeah, and that that kills me. So yeah, so that's where it comes from. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Um my next question relates to my previous guest, um Asima Hotra. Um, so his question was for the next guest, which happens to be you, is what is the greatest source of your anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Um I've I'm gonna have to say my kids, I know it's a cliche, um, but I think if I was on my deathbed and I had the opportunity to talk and reflect, obviously some people die instantly or whatever. And I think if I was looking back and I saw them suffering or experienced them going through what I went through, that would be a moment where I'd said, Do you know I've lost out on this life and I haven't I haven't achieved what I wanted to achieve. So my anxiety is them feeling as low as I felt at times, or them taking their own lives. Um, my my eldest, who's eight, has already said, um, and kids do say this flippantly, so you have to take this with a pinch of salt, but at times she's like, you know, I just maybe I shouldn't have been born. And when I hear that, that is like a dagger. Yeah. Um, but the thing is, other parents have experienced that a lot, even without mental health. Kids just say stuff, so again, take it with a pinch of salt, but that gives me anxiety, a lot of anxiety, just like messing them up or them going through the same thing as me.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Going back to the cause of suicide, I think I heard that you're more likely to um to kill yourself than to you know for your life to be taken by someone else. Um I'm not sure if that's something that's been verified, but I'm pretty sure that and that's something that I have heard. Um but yeah, it'll be interesting to hear a little bit more about your journey in terms of you know w what you've gone through, how you've uh got to the point of actually kind of resolving this, and how you've kind of I mean how you mentioned at one point that you went you were at the priory. Um did that help? And what did that teach you in terms of how you should think about mental health and the underlying issues around that and how you should kind of improve your kind of mental well-being and your emotional health?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah, um, there's a lot to unpack there. There was it was kind of like a three-bronged question. Um, the first thing you've mentioned about you're more likely to kill yourself is really scary because again, like last night I was having a chat with my kids, they stayed up, my my wife was out, and I'm gonna expose myself now. They stayed up till 9.30. So, Alexis, if you're listening, sorry. Um, and my kids at nine, you know, nine, nine thirty were talking about baddies coming into the house as they do, and they're like, are the doors locked and is this locked and is that? And the fact that you've just given is like, well, actually, the most dangerous person to you is you. Um, I've never thought of that until this second, till you've mentioned it. So it's a brilliant yet very scary point. Um, and that is very much how I feel because externally, if you look at me, and I'm not saying this from an arrogant perspective, I'm just saying what people might perceive is I've got kids, I've got a wife, a house, a car, a job, you know, I've got everything going for me. Yet what they can't see is the terror and the turmoil that's going on in my head. Um so I guess that that fact you said really hits home, and I've had to protect myself from myself at times. Um the other thing you said was you use the word resolved. Um, I see resolved as quite absolute. Um, like I'm better now, it's resolved, or you know, you've got a problem in life, okay, I've resolved it. I know it was just a it's just a part of the question, but those are the things I I have to be very careful with my own language because my my language and other people's as well, but it can be toxic or drive me down a certain road. Um so one of the things, so sorry, answering those questions, I haven't resolved it. It's an ongoing, a bit like if I've said um, you know, like the in-betweeners, like you've completed your health, you know, um, it's an ongoing thing, you constantly need to work on it. Um, but one of the things I learned in the priory was there's uh something called the the 12 thinking distortions, and one of them is absolute thinking. So, like I was with a girl when I was 18, I wasn't aware that I was doing this particular behaviour which I'm about to mention. Um, but I basically used to seek validation a lot because I've got lack of self-confidence, and I always wanted her to like every day tell me how much she loves me. And you know, if she didn't say it for five minutes, I'd I'd say, Well, you never say how much you love me. And she would say, Never. I mean, I said it like two hours ago. I was like, Okay, not never, but you and then she was like, No, it's really important that you you don't condition yourself that it's never because you've disqualified the times that I did. Um, so you start to notice, I know it's a bit granular, but you start to notice in your language if you say never or you're always annoying me, or stuff like that. It's you're conditioning a belief system. Um so things like that I learned in the priory, and did it help? Definitely. Um, I would say most things I've done have moved the needle in some way, shape, or form. However, the way you can probably relate to that answer is like me saying, Does drinking protein shakes help you in the gym? It definitely helps, but you can't just drink protein shakes and get in your shape.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Absolutely. I think a big point is confidence and self-esteem when it comes to validations and how do you build a mindset where you kind of self-validate yourself and build that self-esteem and confidence? So are you asking how do I get self-confidence? Yeah, what makes you what makes you self-confident? What makes you avoid going back to when you were 18 and thinking in that mindset of I need validation?

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Um being truthful, I don't think I have moved away from that. I think it's more a case of managing those feelings. So we've all got an internal voice. Um, even now, as I'm talking to you and you're engaged in the conversation, your brain will be thinking about the next question or reflecting. Absolutely, yeah. That's life, right? So my internal voice can often be quite harsh. Um, so even as I'm talking to you, I'm genuinely back thinking you're taking too long, like you know, Rob's gonna be bored. It's it's like negativity, right? And then I'm like, you didn't answer the question. So I'm talking to you and I've got a a psyche going on. So being honest, it's very hard to contest that because for all the hours that I'm awake, I basically get abused by myself, right? So it's not that it's gone away and I look in the mirror now and I think, do you know what? Like I've built self-confidence. It's more that I know that voice isn't real, and I know that it comes from past experiences or traumas and things like that. So I have the knowledge that what it's telling me isn't necessarily true, so it's more that I can silence it or I can say, bro, I've got you, I I hear you, I know you want to take me down. I'm just gonna put you there for the moment. You can carry on mouthing off to me, but I'm just gonna leave you there because I'm doing a podcast, and then I'll on the way home, I'll go back to how shit I was on the podcast. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah, yeah, it does make sense. Um I think it's sort of a case of the quest for perfection is everlasting, and I think that's the case with mental health as well. Like you can we're always having to work on it, it's not something that's always going to be perfect, right? We yeah, life life goes through cycles, um, but there's many variables involved, so it's a good point. It's not something that you resolve and that's it, and you've done it and you've completed the game. It's something that we have to work on forever, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Honestly, daily, and when I when I put into the other pots of life and don't take care of my mental health, it comes to bite me quickly. It it really doesn't take long, you know. It can be one comment. Um, we had a chat in the kitchen before about you received a negative comment from your brother and basically changed your whole life. Um, so although that had positive outcome, that's how quickly it can spiral. Um yeah, and I think there's it's also it's self-obsession, where again, if you can spot this voice and listen and learn to know the voice of you know, uh talking to someone and and it's just on repeat about how bad I am, how shit I am, you know, the camera's looking at me in a certain way, and and I'm thinking, can the camera look at Rob more because he's in better shape, so I'd rather not look fat, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. But it's it's just that that you I've got techniques and and I deploy what I know about it, whereas when I was younger and I I didn't necessarily explore that voice, and I know I'm being a bit deep and a bit, you know, uh I don't know what the word is, but it's um a bit theoretical, sorry. But when I was younger, that was kind of the only voice that there was room for in my head, and I didn't understand there was another voice that you could change the narrative or you know you could compartmentalize it. It's just that's the voice I knew, so I acted on that voice more, right? So it's very key, the voice hasn't gone, I just don't act on it.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Okay. Would you say that there was a period where you kept all this to yourself and you didn't speak about it as openly? And what made you make that transition? Was it was it the time at the Priory? What what ultimately was the point where you thought, okay, I you know, I really need to speak about this more?

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yeah, I've always been a bit different. Um, and I don't mean to compartmentalize male and females, but I've always had like more female friends, I've always, as a kid, got on with adults better. So I've I've definitely been a bit more like open to emotions than I guess what's perceived as your average male. Um that being said, I saw it as a big weakness. So being in the hospital, I felt a lot of shame about that. I felt like you know, early 20s, I perceived a lot of my friends like getting on the career ladder, going out. Um, you know, you spoke about university experience earlier. The traditional, typical way that people think about uni is not for studying, it's for drinking and drugs and doing all this stuff and whatever. And I had a very, very different experience because I was in a very bad way there, and I've never really been into that stuff anyway, so I struggled. But some some of my other friends were like desperate to go to uni to do that. So I guess when I saw people doing that, and you know what I perceived as being happy, so being in a club, and I'm in my head and I'm not in their head, so I can only see their external or their exterior, and I'm like, they're drinking, they're chatting women up, they're having fun, and then guess what? When the night finishes, they're like, I can't wait for tomorrow night to go to tequila. Whereas I'm stood there thinking, I'm really insecure, I don't like the way I look. Am I standing properly? God, my breath probably smells. Well, I can't speak to the other person, I'm boring, and yada yada yada to the point where I just want to go home. So when I saw them having fun and me struggling, I was like, I can't tell someone I'm in the hospital, this is this is awful. Like they're building their careers and doing this and doing that, and the shame just it built more and more. And then I also think that although mental health is on the surface of it, big in today's age, it's on the internet, you know, it's out there, companies do it. I still think there's a big divide of people that say you're not helping yourself, and people that say you can't help yourself. Um, so yeah, that that brought me shame as well because I was like, if I get the wrong person that doesn't understand what you go through and just looks at it as basically you've done it to yourself, I'm like, well, I've done it to myself so badly that I've ended up in hospital. So yeah, a lot of shame. Didn't want to talk about it. And honestly, one day, I don't know what came over me. I I really mean this. I wanted to talk about it, but I didn't feel comfortable like confiding in friends. I I don't know what it was. So one day on my Instagram, um, I was never a poster. Like, if you look prior to that, I barely ever posted or used it. And then one day I just put an extract from my suicide note which I left, and I had an overwhelming amount of responses of people saying, like, I never knew you went through that. I thought you were this, I thought you were that, and that blew my mind. I was like, How could you not know? Even though I didn't tell them, I was like, I don't turn up to things, you know. I I just it blew my mind that it was such a big part of my life. Um, so I felt like Clark Kent in Superman, but for the wrong, you know, not for my so yeah, I guess it just went from there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Um, I've had two close people actually in my life that um sadly committed suicide. So um sorry to Stephen Simmons. So growing up, he was a very close family friend, um, amazing guy, such a happy guy. Um as a kid, I just have this memory. He took us to see the Harlem Globetrotters uh basketball team. Uh, very cool at like doing like tricks and that kind of thing, and just have really fond memories of him. He used to carry me on his shoulders, and I think I was like I don't know, I must have been like 10, 11 years old when I heard what had happened. Um sadly, um he hung himself in his apartment. And yeah, I think that was to do with relationship issues. Um yeah, um so yeah, that was really, really sad. And um pressures from family um approvals and whatnot from like dating someone that the family didn't approve, I believe. Um yeah, so did you leave a note or um I honestly because I was so young, um I'm not sure about the ins and outs of it, but it still sticks with me to this day. But you know, I I genuinely love the guy, even from that age as a kid, it's something that's like traumatic because it's stuck with me ever since. Um, and then the other person that I know is a very, very bright guy um who I used to work with at a company called Super Derivatives from around, yeah, it was around 2009 to 2011. Um this was actually in the papers as well. Right. Uh Wilkes McDermott, he was a very well-known food blogger. Um when you said the suicide note, it reminded me of him because he he posted his last meal on Instagram, and then um yeah, he he um jumped off um I think a famous um like built famous building London restaurant, Coke de Largeon or something, uh, back in 2015 when he was 39 years old. And I looked back on my messages with him, there was no signs, none of that, and gone.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

That's what's so scary about this.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

It is, it's it's terrifying, seriously, to think that you know, these are two people that you would never think that I never thought Wilkes would do that, and you know, I didn't I was too young to know, you know, what was going on in the ins and outs of Steven's life, but I knew Wilkes pretty well, so smart, like high-flying career, earning a lot of money, I'm sure, but just he had a history of depression that I didn't know about.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

So I saw just before we came, I was flicking on Instagram and I saw an American footballer, I think he was. Um he was 26, he died on like the 18th or 20th of February. And when I read the article, sorry, it wasn't an article, it was an Instagram post, and it said found dead at his home. It didn't say anything else, it didn't say the cause. And I looked and I was like, I this is going to be suicide. And again, same thing. Like, I I don't know the guy, I'm not into the sport, but I started researching, I went down a rabbit hole, he's found with a single gunshot wound self-inflicted, and you're looking and you're like, You've you've got what other people perceive, you know, fame. Everyone, when they're a kid, not everyone, but they want to be yeah, sports and footballers. And yeah, it's that's what's so dangerous. And and the other thing that struck me, the two people you know are men. Again, you know, and as soon as you said it, I was thinking, I bet it I bet there's no female here, so it's a killer.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah. Um, I think there was that famous boy band member as well that commits aside from uh I forgot, I forgot the name, I forgot the name of the band, but he's pretty pretty famous.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

I think it happened in the last two or three years. Not five seconds of summer, is it? Uh I can't remember. Yeah. Oh, uh Liam Payne. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Was that conclusive that it was I d I'm not sure? Not 100% to be honest. It seems it seems as though it was, and he seemed very troubled. Right. But there listen, doesn't justify it. It's it's horrendous. However, uh it's slightly different where you said I had no clue. You're looking back over the messages, and the pain that Wilkes must have been in to do that. Um, because I felt that way, and and to take that final step, you know, you've put live more, not live less. Exactly. And it's uh yeah, again, I'm I'm not in any way um belittling what Liam Payne went through. I'm just saying that when you saw he died, there was an expectation because he was troubled, quite openly troubled. But someone like Wilkes, you know, I could leave here now thinking Rob's have had me on his podcast because I'm the one going through this, but you could be the one that does that does it. That scares the shit out of me. Yeah, you just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

There was, I think, that Love Island presenter as well. I think she committed suicide. Yeah, she was a number of years ago. I forgot a name as well, but yeah, that was pretty well the case as well. Oh uh Caroline Flack. I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

There's been a lot, and there was the oh, what's the Radio One or Capital FM DJ? Very famous. Um and he talked about he spoke about producer Joe. Did you ever hear that one?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

No, I didn't come across that one.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

It was his best friend, um, he's very, very famous. I can't remember his name. Um blonde haired, like Cheeky Chappie. Right. And uh he spoke about producer Joe, who was his best friend on the show. And you know, when you kind of know someone's behaviours and what they drink and what and when they turn up and when they don't turn up, and one day producer Joe just didn't turn up to work, and Roman Kemp, that's it. Right, and he said he just knew. Um, and anyway, he found out that he took his own life, but he'd never been communicated with. And what Roman Kemp was saying, because he's got a show uh programme on it, he's saying if he didn't feel comfortable speaking to me, his best friend, you know, and he opted to end his life, something is wrong with the system here. That there's clearly not a way to do it, or you know, the phrases man up, or you know, oh don't be a girl, um, all those things are inadvertently applying pressure to men, and men can't cope. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Again, it comes down to I think social construct, and men are supposed to be seen as you know, masculine figures and not really talking about this stuff so much, you know. Um so yeah, I think it's finding the the right balance there as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I think that's that's the challenge there as well. Um yeah, just um having another thought around body language as well, because actions speak louder than words. So I think this is something you've spoken about because people can appear to be okay on the surface, but then again, you have to look at you know their body language. I mean, what clues do you look for, other than you know, when you ask them, yeah, you know, they seem to be fine, or when you ask them how they're doing, they don't they're not really engaging with you as they should, and you can you I guess you get clues there, but is there anything that you look out for?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Um, yeah, very good question. Again, difficult to answer because um I don't know if you saw the Norwich City put out a mental health thing, it was about a couple of minutes long, it was a it was a couple of years ago now. Absolutely brilliant. Um, you should watch it on YouTube. I kind of don't want to give away what happened in it, but the the crux of it is that looks can be deceiving. So sometimes the clown and the joker is the one that's the most depressed, so or vice versa, you know, it's it's sometimes it's the people you never think, and sometimes it's obvious. Um look, I I think it depends how far you want to go into this stuff. I think it's it's firstly as basic as you paving the way. So rather than looking for necessarily or trying to read the signs in someone else, it's about you paving the way to open people up. So although it's super basic, and I've said this a lot, and it's very much out there, you know, asking people twice how they are. Um, again, I go back to like a lot of our uh interactions over the years. I'd see you at the gym, like that that's my time where I saw Robin, right? And at the gym, it's hi bro, how are you doing? Like, I'm not sure if that was the place to start bringing you down when you're doing, you know, breakdancing and hands dance and smashing the you know, showing everyone up in the gym. And I'm like, let me go and talk to about my depression. But sometimes in that moment, and again, this isn't a reflection of you, just generally, you say hi, how are you? Good, and then you pause, ask it in a certain way, and say, Are are you okay? genuinely, like I'm just checking in. That one little phrase or asking twice, you know, not how are you, how are you? Yeah, good, you know, asking once, taking whatever their superficial answer, pave the way again. Um, I think that's key. And and I think the other things are just noticing like withdrawal, um, looking up online or chat GPT now, what are the symptoms of impression of uh depression, excuse me. There are some, you know, withdrawal, isolation, uh, loss of interest in things. So if you see that, you know, your friends who you always, you know, I don't know, you think of a friend that you're like, do you know what? They love a good steak. I'm just making it up, right? You've got that friend, you're like, it's it's their 40th birthday, they would love nothing more than a steak. If you notice that you say that to them and they don't really take an interest, maybe things like that, you know, if they're really like if I said to you, spoke to you about your passion, health, living more, and suddenly I I saw the zest zapped out of you. Yeah, I might be like, something's wrong. Um that that sort of thing, but it's not as obvious as you know, you could just be really tired and not talkative, and obviously you don't want to pounce, be like, Are you depressed? Do you have personality disorder? Do you have a dick? You'll be like, bro, I'm just tired. Right, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, that's what I'd say.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Absolutely, I think that makes sense. Um what about in terms of um character traits and uh behaviours? So one of the things that I've heard is, for example, OCD and OCD tendencies, um so obsessive-compulsive disorder. Um and I think the nuance here is interesting because people have OCDs, for example, some of them are perfectionists or like um that that can also cause issues as well. If you're too perfectionist, then that can cause that can be a source of anxiety as well. Um have you did you experience any of those kind of issues within yourself, or have you seen that in others and uh how they kind of gone about improving that? Because I think that's a very common thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

So I again I'm gonna use the word suffer or experience I experience OCD myself. I've been diagnosed with it. So the easiest person for me to relate to is myself because I go through it. Now, I think it's important to gain an understanding generally that things aren't what they seem. My main mantra, the main thing I'm about, is that things aren't what they seem, and you need to go beyond the surface. And my learn, I'm taking a slight slide step a slight sidestep, but I'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Where I've learnt all this stuff is sitting in the priory and sitting in hospitals because you have a perception of people when they walk in. Um, there was one guy who came in, he drove a Ferrari very, very fast down the Priory Lane, which is like a country lane, you know, five mile an hour speed limit. He was roaring his car, he was jacked and you know, he looked like he was ripped wearing tight shirts. And I thought, God, who's this cock? Like, I'm at the end of my life here, and this guy's bringing his showing his wealth and his physique and blah blah blah. I was like, he's probably picking up his cocaine-snorting celebrity kid. He sits in a a meeting next to me and like burst into tears saying, I fucking hate myself and I want to die. And I'm like, okay, there's a big disparity between how I perceived him to what he's saying here, a complete mismatch. So where I'm going with that is in myself, my OCD comes out the most at home. I can't deal with like um things not being tidied, not being in place, like particularly not being in place, like the shoes, they have to be all at the front door. I don't get if they're in the middle of the floor or this, that, and the other. Now, the thing to note, and where I went with the things aren't what they seem, is you might come to my house and just find me fucking annoying and be like, oh, it's just you know, it's the shoes, like there's more to life, you know, people are dying, but he's picky on me for where my shoes are. I think you can deal with it yourself better if you have an understanding of that other person. So if you say, look, people go through stuff and just be a bit more understanding generally in life. It's the same with health. If you're coaching someone, health is quite black and white. You know, things are either they do this to your body or they do that to your body. You might set someone a plan, but they might not do the plan. Yep. If you just apply logic, it's gonna be very difficult because you're like, well, I've told you to take these supplements to train this way and to eat that. If you do that, you'll look like me. There's no two ways about it. But why don't why aren't they doing it? There's a blockage. Do you see what I mean? So if you can understand with the OCD and again do a bit of reading rather than just jumping to God, that's annoying, or that must be hard, or I see, but do you see what I mean? Have a have an understanding in yourself, then I feel it's easier to work with people.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Interesting, yeah. I think you touched upon the point of physiology there and how kind of physiology can directly link to mental health and emotional well-being, and I think it can be a catch-22 situation because if you're like if you have mental health issues and you're depressed, we're told that obviously exercise is is positively improves your physiology. But if you're in such emotional distress and yeah, that might be a step too far to get someone to actually go for a run or go to the gym. They they don't want to be seen in public, they didn't I guess how do you get them a step closer towards you know exhibiting those you know positive behaviours and for them to make those changes? I think that that would be interesting for the audience.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

It's it's a really good question. Um, because again, it what you've just said is science. No, you cannot argue with with the statement it is scientific, you release endorphin, you know, um I won't encroach on your field. Uh for me it's two things. Number one is reps, same as the gym. You keep putting the reps in, and eventually the muscle is going to experience enough strain that it will grow. So where I'm going with that is they don't have to be seen or take over the world. It could start with one press up. Um it doesn't even need to start with that. It could literally start with just getting out of bed. Start it depends, obviously, there's a scale of how bad people feel, and you start building the muscle and and building the reps. A bit like I'm quite sure, you know, I see this picture here and the stuff that you do online, and I'm again blown away by it, and you seem to defy your age, you know. You do all these amazing things to me anyway, but I'm quite sure you didn't do them on day one when you walked into that gym. Absolutely not. You know, I know how difficult calisthenics it, you know. I've been training for 20 years, I cannot even do a tenth of what you do. So I know the effort and the work that's gone into that, and it's the same with the mental health. It it's what you're saying is right, is you've got to put in all this work, but you feel on the floor to do so. Baby steps, reps, and then the other thing is building a structure around it, so stacking habits, um, which again you will know all about and do yourself. Um, but I liken it to you know, if you're on a diet or watching what you eat and you've got an all-you-can-eat buffet or you know, and an open bar at someone's wedding, don't go starving. Eat something before, because once once you get there, you're in trouble. It's the same with your emotions. If you can put certain plans in place, you know, whether it's bringing a friend with you or having a therapy session before, or doing how what you know to manage yourself, you're going to be in a better place to go training, or put your alarm clock on the other side of the room. You know when you open your eyes that the depression and the self-talk and all of that's going to kick in. But if you plan to go to the gym, put the alarm clock on the other side of the room, you get up, you're you've already broken a pattern of physiology, and then you can have it stack something else.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

That's really interesting. Yeah, well one of the things that I look at in terms of metrics. So, what I find fascinating is looking at, for example, biometrics that are, let's say, you know, you you would say that, for example, heart rate variability is a quantitative metric, but it could be used to interpret something that's a qualitative metric, such as you know, emotional well-being, nervous system regulation. So obviously, it um the basics of HRV is um it's the variability between um each heartbeat, and that being higher, it it shows a more balanced nervous system. Um so obviously, people who work out and exercise, it's been shown that they have they tend to have a higher HRV, which makes them more adaptable and resilient to stress. So that's one example of where I think that is fascinating and that's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah. That blows my mind. Um yeah, because I I just associate it as if you're stressed, you go and release endorphins or whatever, but I haven't I didn't know that that just by doing exercise you're going to be able to deal with stress better, even if you're not training in that moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Science is incredible. Uh there's even, for example, evidence to show that it when you're contracting your muscles and you're doing strength training, um, you release signalling molecules um called myokines. So an example of one is being I think irisin. Um essentially acts like as a kind of hope molecule and actually results in you having a happier physiological state. It's unbelievable, but there's a lot of science around this. I mean, I'm not even an expert on it, but um, yeah, so it I think this is just the stuff's really fascinating. It like similarly, like going for a run when you run or when you do any kind of cardio or high intensity stuff, um um you produce what's called uh BDNF, brain derived nootrophic factor. So it that's very beneficial for like your neurons and um connectivity between them, I believe. So yeah, so I think it's really interesting looking at how like the physiology is linked with your kind of mental health as well, and how that and again um what an interesting one because I think you've talked spoken about your relationship with food, and I find that one it's particularly fascinating because I've got friends, one of my one of my best mates, um, who I actually got him to do some blood tests recently with Randoc. So um he's pre-diabetic, and I'm just trying to help him improve his underlying metabolic health. Yeah, um, so I think there is evidence to show that people who aren't as metabolically healthy are, for example, are more likely to have issues with gut health. And there's a lot of research around the gut brain access, and like for example, 90% of our serotonin is produced in the gut.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

So it's really important what we're putting into ourselves, not just how we're thinking, but what we're physically eating. Because that can that can determine our, you know, it could, I'm not saying it's it could be there, there are there is evidence, I think, to show that there are linkages um with the gut microbiome and you know how we think. So having a healthy gut microbiome is really important, even thinking looking at things like inflammation and stuff like that, which are kind of I guess downstream factors as well. But I think it's all interconnected, and I think that's that that's what I find interesting. So so if you can get someone to eat healthier, I think it's a domino effect. I think all of this is a domino effect. For example, if like like you do in the morning, I see you work out very early in the morning, right? If you if you work out, you get up, I see you, you get up ridiculous hour of the day like 5 a.m. do a workout, right? So you try and get the hard things out of the way first, which I really respect and admire. And I think there's a lot of evidence to show that if you do the hard things first in the day, then you're likely to be more productive, but also a lot more happier throughout the day.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

So one of my mantras is do the hard things in life, your life will be easy. Do the easy things, your life will be hard. I don't always stick to that.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I've seen you do that with the cold plungers as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I although I had to quit. Did you see my last experience like that? What happened? God, it was bad. Um, so I've also got this like defiance thing that the more people tell me no, I'm like, no, no, I'll I'll do it. But it's particularly with these like challenges. So people are like, okay, do the cold stuff, but why do you have to go like on the 10th of January when it's like minus two outside? And I'm like, because that's what ballers do, you know, like trying to be the big guy and whatever. So I went to you've probably seen me in the ponds, I go to like Highgate Ponds. And down the road from me. Yeah, exactly. I see you running there all the time. So this was particularly cold. Like sometimes, even when it's cold outside, the water temperature isn't as cold as you think. But this day was the coldest I'd ever done. But I think the interesting thing is on that day, I had a real aversion to go. I really didn't want to go on that day, but I'd committed to someone to go. So once I commit, I was like, I'm not gonna let them down. And the water was the coldest I'd ever been, which I've done even two or three degrees, but this was one degree and it was bitter, it was just horrible. And I stayed in for about five or six minutes for 90 minutes after. I genuinely had completely lost feeling in my toes. Oh my god, and they went blue, and I was like shitting myself because I was struggling to walk. Um, and then I went in the shower and never do this if you're into cold water exposure. Put hot water on you know, extremities that you can't feel, right? And I basically overcooked it. Uh and you know, these numbers don't sound much one degree comparatively to two degrees, what's the big deal? Five minutes. I think, as I said, big factor. If you're not mentally ready, it definitely plays into your physiology as well, to an extent. I don't know what the science is, but there was just something about me I didn't want to do it, it was the coldest I'd ever been, and I overcooked it and I paid for it. And since that day I've never gone again because there's there is I the reason I do cold plunging is the same reason I go to the gym. We were chatting before the podcast. I'm genuinely not particularly fit strong. If we did a session, you know, I I watch some of the weights you do. You look fit and strong. I I look it, but trust me, it's like someone wearing like the best makeup in the world, and you take it off.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Uh I I I've You train harder than probably 95% of people.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

I think that's train hard. Maybe, but I'm not being humble because I know my body, that's the thing. And and loads of people will judge it on looks, right? And I get that, I would too. But I go for mental health reasons, and it's the same as you. Yeah, have having done that workout, particularly when you work in an office, I love hearing people at like five to nine coming in with like two Starbucks in their hands, you know, and they're like, Oh, it's just so you know, I couldn't get up this morning, and I'm like, I've been up since 4:30. It's not an arrogant thing to say, like, I'm better than you, it's just I don't want to feel how they feel. And there's a very simple medicine, just get up and do some exercise for me. So, yes, that's why I like you know, do I want to go into a cold plunge necessarily? No. People say to me as well that honestly, I hear people say, Well, it's all right for you, don't feel the cold. I'm like, I didn't know you could feel. Or what I feel, or I've got like superhuman skin. Of course, I fucking feel the cold. But the difference is when I come out of there, I feel amazing. Going in, I feel horrible.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

So yeah, I don't know what question you asked me, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

That makes sense. I think all of us can overdo it at some, you know, at some point. Um, I think you've even spoken about it on your um on your Instagram. I think you mentioned um you had some shoulder injuries, you overdid it when you were younger. Um so I think striking the right balance, and I think you know it's it's always an iterative process because sometimes we don't know whether we've worked out hard enough or we've pushed it a step too far. So I think that comes down to experience as well, in terms of it's important to exercise, but it's also important to get enough sleep, rest, and recovery. That's absolutely critical, also to mental health as well. I think that's an important point. So I always like to look at health as the pyramid of you know diet, exercise, sleep, supplementation. Um, because all of those factors fundamentally affect our physiology as well and our state of mind.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

So I last year I had one of the worst years of my life mentally. Again, not externally, I had a great year, but mentally I had a really bad year, and honestly, one of the reasons was because I was sleeping four to five hours a night, and I didn't realise because to me, I was so conditioned to go to the gym. Like I did more training days last year than I've done any, I think I did something like 300 sessions or whatever, which for me was a lot. But my sleep was the thing that got sacrificed because one of the reasons, again, why I train early is not because I'm super motivated and I'm this you know influencer guru that I don't know if you saw that routine going around. There was one guy on the internet, he had millions of views where he was, you know, dipped his face in cold water, and he had this whole like crazy routine where you're like, Okay, it's supremely healthy, but I'm just never gonna do that. It's like five hours of routine. So, anyway, I don't get up because I'm anything special, I get up because I've got kids, and my kids get up at 6:30 if I don't train beforehand. Whilst I still stand by all the things we spoke about, but I need to train that, you know, once they get up, they need to go to school and need to be looked after, so it's game over. So you've got to get up early. So basically, if I'd have last year, if I'd had a late night or something, you know, or I was busy working, I was like, but I can't sacrifice the exercise because that's contributing to my health. But what I realized over time was when I look back at the last night, I got seven or eight hours sleep, we were talking like six or seven months, and I did reading and spoke to someone about it, and he said, You are literally taking years off your life doing that. Yeah. He said, I would scrap the gym, honestly. So, yeah, it was a painful lesson. Um, but I I echo what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

So you do you feel like your sleep's improved since last year? Have you tried it? Is that something that you've worked on?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Yeah, definitely. That's good. Yeah, and and I have to curb the you know having no confidence or low confidence as well. I go to the gym to compensate. Because if I don't, I feel even more pain of me telling myself I'm overweight or I'm a slob or I'm this or I'm that. But it can't come ahead of sleep because sleep will kill you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Do you have a particular wind-down routine? Or do you do you have like a policy where like you try to avoid your phone an hour before bed or anything like that, or do you use like like blue light blocking glasses, or do you do anything of that nature, or not really?

SPEAKER_02 47:52

I've I've read about all this stuff and not implemented them. Okay. My main thing is I just I need to get the hours in first. Because I don't actually even though I still think it's good to do those things, and it and obviously having your phone and and is it called white lights? What's the opposite of blue light?

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Well, I think, yeah, I think like that's not good for your like for example, these lights are quite bright. I think that they're not good for like your circadian. Yeah, circumstances melatonin production, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

So's that I know they're not good, but the function of sleeping, I don't I fall asleep instantly. So to me, it's steps. I'm like, the next thing would be to wind down and get myself into a a state. So I haven't done that yet, but I'm very, very militant about um like I was speaking to someone on the way, and they're like, genuinely, 8 30 is past your bedtime. I'm in I'm asleep by nine o'clock most nights. Um amazing. It is amazing. I wish I could speak that. Well, it's I get up at 4 30. Right, yeah. But there's a toll, you pay a price for it, you know. My relationship, doing like having a life, like genuinely. I'm like, what time is it? 10 o'clock. This is do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not used to being awake at this time, so yeah, you like you, you make sacrifices, but you get a good outcome. Yeah, yeah. You probably don't see it as sacrifices, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

I mean, for me, I've heard that the most important thing is consistency. So, like, in terms of it's less about what time you go to sleep, I believe, but more about um like consistently going to bed and getting up around the same time consistently. So even if it's let's say 11 p.m. at night and you're getting up, let's say 8 a.m. or 7th a.m. The point is trying to do that consistently. I think that's that's the key here in terms of there's sleep quality and quantity, so trying to get a good balance between both. I don't use a wearable like a Whoop, I've tested it before, but then I thought there's a balance there because you can overanalyse stats and think I just use an Apple Watch at the moment and I'm happy just with that. Um, so I think it's trying to strike a right balance between not overanalysing, you know, analysis by paralysis can also be a source of anxiety as well. So definitely.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Your Instagram gives me anxiety because I'm like your metabolic age is like five years old, and I'm like, what is this guy's insane? Um so I don't need a wearable, I just log on to your Instagram, and I'm like, honestly, I have so much respect. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Um, yeah, so I think another point that's interesting, and I think this is relevant um to the environment that we are in today with tech, is social media and the state of comparison. So I think this causes a lot of social anxiety, I think, not just in younger demographics, but across I guess all ages. I think there's evidence to show that that is the case. Um, what are your thoughts around social media? And as someone who now has kids, how do you think about that in today's environment in terms of you know obviously I'm sure you're protective of your kids and like you know, ensuring that you know they're not exposed to it too early. How do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Oh, that's a big question. Um look, you said it analysis, paralysis, compare and despair. Um it's an interesting one. I think I think people say things that they don't mean. Um in two ways. And again, this is my ADHD sidestep, I suffer with that as well, of the answer. Um, but the first one is yeah, I don't care what people think. I have almost yet to find a human that doesn't care what people think. Almost. My dad uh genuinely, I believe, didn't care. Um, his behaviour was was incredibly unruly, so that backed up the fact that he he didn't care. But I think, yeah, I I find it interesting. Um, I'll give you an example and I'll give you where I'm going with this. So I said to my wife, my sorry, my wife said uh when we were on the plane back from our Christmas holiday, it was New Year's Eve, she said to me, Do you know what? We train together when we were on holiday, and we haven't really trained much together before. And she was like, New Year's resolution, every Friday, let's train together. I'll get up with you, we'll train. And I've been taking the piss a little bit, like the first week she something got in the way, and then the next week something, and then it got to like week four, we hadn't trained together. And I was like, you know, it's really important on yourself that you stick to your word, your word to to your not to other people, but to yourself as everybody.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Absolutely, I agree with that. That comes back to the point on self-confidence and self-esteem. I think it's so important for one to keep promises to themselves. If I don't keep a promise to myself, I feel like shit.

SPEAKER_02 52:59

Yeah, and it's a slippery slope. Like, when do those promises keep going and dropping? But I couldn't get her into the gym. So then I turned the screw and I thought, do you know what? I'm gonna post on Instagram. And suddenly she turned up to the gym the next day because I took the piss out, I took the piss out of her publicly. Was that a nice thing to do? Maybe not, but it didn't actually come from a place of picking on her, it came on leveraging the fact that she's bothered by what other people think. So she went to the gym. So I was like, okay, desired outcome, done. I also find prior to the GLP1, you know, uh craze that the number one weight loss drug for me is getting married. Women get married and they send out the invitation. So true, bang, that is why, and it's ever you know those people that they've always been big, always, their whole life. They're obviously an endomorph or whatever, they've always been big. Bang, get married, they look the best ever. Because it's a public thing, the pictures are gonna be there.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

So yeah, I social construct and pressure again.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

100%. So I think it's really strong, really powerful, really, really damaging. But I also think on the flip side, it's part of life, and yes, look, I protect my kids from I don't want them to know certain swear words, I don't want them to see you know pornographics like that. I don't want them to experience that because I don't think that's good. By the same context, again, I'm not saying this is right, it's just my style. I I'm quite real with my kids about things. Um, for me, in terms of parenting styles, again, this is just my own stance. I think if you tell kids something that categorically isn't true, so for example, if kids worry about death and you say, don't worry, it's never gonna happen, death does happen, and there's a big fall from grace. So I I expose them to little bits of I don't mind them going on, you know, as long as I'm looking over their shoulder, they can go on Snapchat at eight years old. They don't speak to people, they're just doing silly faces and stuff. But yeah, the point is I don't them to overindulge, um, but I don't want them to abstain from it fully. Um, and actually, something you might relate to. I have a very broken relationship with food. That bit you won't relate to, but it's to do with my kids.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Actually, I I would say I did at one point. I think I've just become overly well, I've I've I've just figured out what works and what doesn't, in terms of like it's just a matter of building discipline and the tolerance.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

So that's perce like my perception of you is basically like you've you've got the body of a god, like everything you do is just a hundred percent. But that's my perception, right? Yeah, but that's what I mean. But I'm like genuinely, I was fearful of turning up and being on camera with you. Um, but where I'm where I was going with my kids is I don't think I've got a good behavioural structure and blueprint to teach them about food, and the whole giving junk food to kids, you know, which kid is gonna end up more unhealthy? The one that you just say, look, the junk food's there, take whatever you want, or the one that you restrict. And it's that with the comparing as well. You know, I want to let them have a bit. If you know my eight-year-old says I want to put makeup on, I'm like, okay, don't demonize makeup and say it's only when you're because then when she gets there, yeah. So sorry, that was a very long-winded answer, my side, but yeah, I it's a challenge, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

I can imagine, I can only imagine. Um, I've seen challenges of my own nieces and nephews. Um, yeah, particularly going through adolescence and whatnot. So my nephew's got ADHD, so um that's that's been another challenge to deal with for my brother.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

So I think in boys, boys have well, I've got three girls, so I wouldn't know, but boys have a lot of energy and ADHD very common um and bloody hard work. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Um what about in terms of addictions and um for example like substance abuse? I don't know if you went through if that's something you experienced yourself or you've seen in others, like um like too much alcohol, drugs and whatnot could be something else, but is that something that you went through yourself or you've observed in others in terms of others that you've spoken to, you know, yeah in this area?

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Both. Um so I identify as an addict big time. Um and again, one of the things I put out on social media is back to social construct. If you uh typically use the word addict, most people default to drugs, alcohol, gambling, um, things that have a very negative connotation. Right. They won't default to the gym being an addiction, they won't default to spending money, but not gambling, just like basically addiction is a dopamine here to cover pain. Absolutely. It doesn't matter. You can be addicted to drinking water, you know, and you can flood your kidneys. It it doesn't matter what you're addicted to, dream scrolling, for instance. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're all like addicted to our phones. So uh I I'm definitely an addict, um and my problem's always been with food, always been with food. I've got a very bad relationship with food. Um it will either be like binge eating or restricting that sort of thing, but it's how I'm relating to it, and for me, addiction is when you lose control. So for me, the food I've found at times has dominated me where I am not in control. So I am because I'm putting it in my mouth. Like for the viewers or people that hearing this that say, What are you saying? It's an out-of-body experience. It it's the relationship is so toxic that I can't seem to stop myself from acting in a certain way. Um, so yeah, addiction is very, very rife. Um, as a result of my food addiction, I've been to many 12-step fellowships, which is basically Alcoholics Anonymous.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Um, that whole world fucked me. I cannot believe how prevalent it is across the world. And when you enter, I don't know if you've ever been to a meeting, it it's like a cult. Right. Um it is extremely helpful, by the way. I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just it's like um an unspoken world that is really out there. Uh I can tell you from going to addiction meetings how I've realized honestly, I reckon upwards of 90% of people are addicts.

unknown 59:45

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Really, I I really mean that. They might not know they're addicts. Um, and there are people deep in addictions where I mean, I I was once a sponsor of a guy in an addiction programme that he was a sex addict, and he used to tell me on his lunch break he was with prostitutes, uh, he couldn't stop masturbating at work during the you know, even with his kids in that, you know, all sorts. And it's like if you're not exposed to addiction, people will go, God, that's disgusting, or what you know, and pass loads of judgments. But it's the same as gambling, or it's the same as when I binge eat um in that sense. So, yeah, very big question. It's everywhere, it's where you can't see it, and I think it I think addiction is one of the only things that can completely bring you to your knees. Absolutely, like completely destroy your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Absolutely, I couldn't agree with that more. I've got two close friends to me actually. Um, one is a chronic smoker, and I love him to bits, but it's so hard to like be around him all the time as well because he smokes so much, and it's I mean, I had asthma, really bad asthma when I was like four or five, almost died from asthma. It's like really, really bad. I went to I went to A E when I was a kid, so I used to use inhalers, so it's kind of miraculous that I went from that kid that had asthma to where he had big lung capacity. So, yeah, when I think of my my friend, it's like how can I stop him? Because it's like he's got he's got so much to deal with. So for context, um so he has to deal with a lot. He's he kind of acts as a carer for his mum, yeah. Um and he's done so for over two decades now, and it's it's really, really hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

Um question for you if he didn't have to deal with stuff, would you relate to it differently? Let's say he didn't have any of that, but he still smoked as much as he did.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

Perhaps, yeah. I don't know, because like I can I can empathize. Well, I it's har you gotta be careful with the word empathize because I haven't been put I can't really put myself in the same shoes, but I have I mean his for context, his mum had a stroke like over 25 25 years ago or so, and she's been wheelchair bound. So I can only imagine how much responsibility and how much she has to deal with, and it's affected like a lot, like like being able to socialise, going out, living your own life, like it's it's he's sacrificed a lot. Yeah, it's almost as if he's become the parent. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's I've been there, yeah. And I've kind of experienced that, but a lot more short-lived when my mum, for example, like broke her shoulder like um about three or four years ago, and um that was quite stressful. So I had to like help her with like you know, around the house, do the cooking and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so this stuff's very real, it does happen. So I can when that happened, it kind of enabled me to put myself in his shoes and think, shit, this is actually very, very stressful. Yeah, and that's something that worries the life out of me, you know, parents getting older and then like not being independent. Yeah, and I guess that's why I'm obsessed around this whole health span longevity thing, like seeing people deteriorate, you know, going to AE, like seeing people, you know, on their last legs, like last year, um, actually about a year and a half ago, my best friend lost his mum to cancer, breast cancer. And I just distinctly remember going into the hospital and looking around me. And to me, every time I go to that hospital, it reminds me why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I look at those people in their hospital beds and they're like struggling to breathe. And I think this is why I do what I do. Yeah, it's powerful. That to me is the biggest reason. That's why I am obsessed with all of this health span stuff, and I think that's probably in terms of that anxiety, that's made me be the way I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

Yeah, but it's massive, and I think you know, so many people want to change when it's too late, or once they've had a stroke, um, you don't need to get there. Exactly with addiction, they'll go when they're on the floor, when their life is in pieces, they'll go to a meeting. But what about going beforehand?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

And I think it's interesting looking at the stats. Like, for example, so much of the population has mental health issues, but also so much of the population is metabolically unhealthy. Yeah, and I think it's all interlinked, a lot of it's interlinked.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

100%. Like you said, if serotonin, 90% of it's created in the gut, it they're absolutely it it's we're in the same vessel, and that vessel has to operate like an ecosystem, doesn't it? Together. I completely agree with you, and I think I don't take care of my physical health in the way that I should, and I'm convinced it's a huge contributor. I'm also convinced I've had a lot of shoulder surgery, I've had hernia surgery three times. I I can't explain it, but I'm convinced that my mental health has made parts of my body weaker. I don't know what the science is, but I'm I I've spent so many days lying in bed, crying, being like putting a stress on the body, you know, obviously inflammation, and I'm just convinced that it's created inflammation in certain places. So, yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

I think yeah, social construct again, like societal pressures. I think it's important to not necessarily just follow the crowd and feel that you have to do what the crowd does all the time. Yeah. But to do what's right for you. I think we can get that anxiety where we're not we're not where we're supposed to do be based on social construct. And I think everything should be in your own time.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

So my I had therapy today, and my therapist, what he's made me do at the start of my therapy a number of months ago was basically write down the life that I want. And he's very, very good at bringing back any form of thing that we talk about in therapy. He relates to is this the life that you want? Is this in line with the life that you want? And today, after a number of months of me not doing the things that contribute to the life that I want, he challenged, Well, do you actually want those things? And we established today, after six months of working together, half of the things on there are things that I think I should be doing, but I don't necessarily want to do. So again, how many of us are doing things that we think we should do it, but we're not invested in it? We don't really want to do it. And I think that's like you said with social construct. I should be going out having a good time, maybe I should be doing this, but it's you don't want to be seen as the person that says, Do you know what I want to get to bed early because I want to go to the gym tomorrow?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

To tie this up, what would you say is living well to you mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Living wealth you mean. Living well. What does living wealth mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

So what does living well to you mean? Living wealth.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

I thought you said living wealth, you mean that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

What does living well to you mean? I apologise. No, my bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:36

Um living well, I'm gonna go off what my dad said growing up always, which was health and happiness. He always, always said that repeatedly. And I think if you can have control of your health, not losing control and having to go to hospital appointments and taking medication to get I think that's 50% of it. And I think if you can take enjoyment from things, true, genuine enjoyment, and it doesn't have to be anything huge like buying a hundred grand car, you know, doing these things that again social construct, but taking enjoyment. You know, I've come here tonight, I've sat in a quiet room, one-on-one. This is for me my love language. This is what I thrive off. I don't need to earn money from it or gain anything or have a you know, some sort of material at the end. Um so yeah, that's what I think it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

I agree. I I think yeah, from my own personal experience, you know, it comes down to like maturity as well. Like we often like look at society and we think, you know, all of these things that you know it's all kind of capitalism has kind of put in front of us as like this is success. Yeah. And I think a lot of people have you know worked towards those things. Obviously, we need a certain level of you know financial wellness to have you know good mental health, you know, to be self-sufficient, all that kind of stuff, and to have a dignified life. But it gets to a point where some people just focus on that so much and they there's it's almost like an addiction in itself, just try and make more and more and more money. Yeah, but you know, they let their health go. And I've just I see it so much in my own community as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Yeah, it's the same as the age-old question of what's a a rich man, you know, is it someone that's got 50 million quid in the bank but always wants more, or someone that's happy with what they've got, you know. So yeah, I agree, I agree. It's finding that, I guess, that right balance, right? Also, it's misaligned values. Yes. Everyone says they value their health, but their behaviours will go 90% into earning money and not into their health. So do you value it? Very true. If you don't uh water a plant, it dies. If you if you don't give to your health, it you'll lose it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Very, very true. Actually, one of the things I just remembered that I thought was an interesting point, um, kind of off topic a bit, was going back back to technology and AI. So um, having listened to an episode of Jay Shetty, the one of the things I wanted to touch upon is you know what your thoughts are around given what's going on with AI, could be used for good, could be used for bad thing with social media. Yeah, I think there was a case where an AI chat agent um was used by a particular individual, I think um adolescent, I'm not sure exactly how this person was, I think it was Adam Raynor or something, but it resulted in sadly taking his own life. Um so I think just like a knife can be used to cut food, it can be used, you know, for you know, it could be used to kill someone as well. It's dangerous. Yeah, so I think it's the same case with AI. I mean, how do you look at, you know, the world now and AI and how things are evolving? I mean, we all a lot of us are using AIs and stuff like that. How do you think about this stuff as it relates to kind of mental health connectivity? The other point being social isolation as well, because I think on one hand, all these things could be good, but if it results ultimately in more social isolation and not people meeting face to face as we are now, because I think it's completely different being face to face and being on, for example, like a Zoom.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

Um, I think that's a really important point, but it's not nearly spoken enough about as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

I think we've touched on a lot about balance and maturity, and I think if you have a level grounding in yourself and knowledge, wisdom, you educate yourself, I think you can do anything in life because you understand the fundamentals of boundaries. That being said, children are learning, and if they have it from a young age and don't learn those things, or if people who are less fortunate to get good education or grounding and things like that, yeah, I think it could go one of two ways. Uh I think an interesting thing for me is look, w when I feel suicidal, I mean saying that's strange because that that isn't a feeling, um, which my therapist always tells me to straighten it, but when when I'm feeling very, very um low and depressed and whatever, and I start turning to the suicide thought, sometimes I share it with people because I'm quite open, and you know, I'll say, listen, I'm I'm really this is how I'm feeling, and basically I don't want to be here anymore. What I found most people do is they default into saving mode, particularly males. Well, what about your family? Okay, um, should I come over? And very few people acknowledge because there's this there's they're fearful. If they acknowledge it, they're worried that they're contributing to it. Now, there's a big difference between acknowledging it and saying, That is a great idea. Do you want to hang yourself? I can bring a knife over, we can electrocute, you know, running through all these. Obviously, you're not going to do that, you're not going to encourage them. The only thing that acknowledges me is AI. So when I talk to AI, the training it's had, and and I know about that case, and and I think it was OpenAI got sued. Um, you know, understandably, someone's lost their life over it. So a bit like Tesla self-driving cars, there is that one that goes rogue. But generally speaking, AI for mental health, if used in the right way, is absolutely unbelievable. It's like the best human that gives you non-judgmental, brilliant answers. For social isolation, it's horrendous. Um, and I have noticed my own obsession with AI is like increasing by the day. So, yeah, jury's out on that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:10

Yeah, I think the important word to use here is amplifier because looking back at that case, I wouldn't just say that it's most more likely than not AI wasn't the sort sole cause of that, but it was probably an amplifier, right? So it can it's it can make things worse or better. It's all in context. You can't just it's again, it comes down to like not just saying reductionist thinking as in this this was the cause and that's it. It's more I think there's a number of underlying things that probably took place, not just the chat bot, but you know, there's other things that you need to take into consideration.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:50

Yeah, I definitely don't think the chatbot uh from the start of their conversation decided that they were going to get that person to take their life and structured everything. Yeah, but it probably didn't help. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Um back on the point on um like technology, I think there's also been research which I found really interesting. The higher your screen time, the more likely that you are to have suicidal suicidal tendencies or thoughts. Um I thought that was quite interesting. So I haven't dug into the research specifically, but just looking at that in prep, I just thought that's really interesting. So to looking at I didn't know that fact.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Doesn't surprise me, but I didn't know that at instantly of internally.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:35

But it's also, I guess, what you're actually looking at. So it's important to know, you know, if you're looking at, you know, different types of content. I think the other point is if you look at like, for example, like too much news or like too much stuff that's like negative, yeah, you're likely to have a lot more negative thoughts. So it's like trying to, you know, what do you you've got to be mindful of what you're exposing yourself to, like again, like environment, yeah, social circles, what kind of people you're hanging around with. All those things sounds like common sense, but often not common practice, and sometimes it's you know, you gotta sit back and try and think objectively about these things, and it's hard to sometimes like put yourself in that position.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:15

But that's the that's what I said before. I agree with you entirely, and I think it's about you know, do you have the grounding? Is it in your nature, or do you have people around you that can stabilize or settle you? Or you know, you and I came from a time where as kids this stuff didn't exist, so we've seen both lives, exactly, and when it comes in, you can say, well being in that sweet spot, I think, of understanding both worlds. Correct, correct. So yeah, I don't think there's an answer for it, and I think there will continue to be tragedies over the years and terrorism and all the rest of it, yeah. But I also think the science and you know, tracking your food, you stuff to obviously go onto my fitness pal scan, you can now just bang, take a photo and it it it uploads it all. So I think it works both ways, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:00

Um, yeah, I think to tie this all up, yeah. Um, I think this has been great. Is there anything else that you feel that we should have covered that we haven't covered or anything that you want to mention?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:12

Um no, I don't think so. Um it's been really good coming on here, and I actually didn't think there'd be as much focus on mental health. I I think I was like panicked, thinking, God, I'm just gonna come here and get exposed about how bad my body is, you know, it's gonna get the blood test out. And um, so no, I really appreciate you having me. Um, no, not I think we've covered a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

It's been an absolute pleasure. Just one final question. If you could ask any question to the next guests as it relates to peak human performance and longevity, mental health, or whatever you want to ask, what would that question be to them? Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:53

I want to ask, I don't quite know how to put it into a question, but I want to to them to think about the masquerade of life. And I want to ask, what vibe are they giving off which isn't congruent with how they're feeling inside? So what mask are they putting on? You know, are that are they acting happy or sad or when actually they're not, and are they being real?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Right. That's that's really fascinating. Well, I really, really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Um, I hope you've enjoyed this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:32

Um if you're new to this channel, I'd really appreciate if you could subscribe and uh thank you very much for listening. Thanks, Joey. Thanks a lot.