Mindfulness and meditation

In this episode of Shift Happens, we explore meditation, mindfulness, and the science behind building a meditation practice. Clem shares her thoughts on the research around meditation, including reflections on popular voices in the space and the challenges of defining mindfulness and measuring its effects.

We discuss different meditation techniques, how Oli approaches meditation in her daily life, and whether meditation is something everyone should try. We also explore the difference between meditation and flow states, whether everyday activities like cooking or driving can be mindful, and how meditation can help improve how we cope with stress.

Along the way we touch on the marketing of meditation, the relationship between meditation and hypnosis, and why building the habit takes time. Clem also sets herself a challenge to practice 10 minutes of meditation every day.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

We just had a 25 minute catch-up, which is really nice, because actually I haven't seen you in person for like a week. So actually I don't think I've seen you since last week, since we recorded.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

No. Uh the weather's changed. Again. Which was kind of predictable.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Actually, I spent three days in the fog.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Oh, in France.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Actually, it was fog, fog, fog.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Fog, fog, fog. Fog.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

You cannot see now. No, really fog. And then fog in the UK on this this morning. It's lifted now, but it was fog all the way driving through.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Really? Ooh, that's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Yeah, it's really weird nice.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Like eerie. Yeah. Um, so.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Third winter came along.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Third the third winter. It's basically after spring. It's it's the year of winter, I feel like. Um just since January, it's just been non-stop. Um, but moving on from the weather. Um funny story for you to kick off the week. So you know how I am such a handy person when it comes to you know DIY stuff. So this week I had so excitingly a new dishwasher delivered. Oh, did you? Oh yeah. It's beautiful. It is so clean. It like the drawers actually stay in the rails, like so that they don't completely collapse. It's amazing. Because the old one was like really old, and so the drawers kept like falling out and stuff. So does it wash dishes? It happens to also wash dishes, but mostly it just makes me look really cool. Um this doesn't though. Really? This is not this is such a like mid-30s flex. The best dishwasher. Um but when the guys delivered the dishwasher, I don't, you know, you have to fill up these questionnaires where they're like, what's the electrical pulse or whatever of the dishwasher and like how many watts and really? Yeah, you have to answer these so that for the installers, so they know like do they need to plug it into the wall or is it like a plug socket or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Okay, I've never had to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Right. I had to, and so I filled out diligently the questionnaire, to be fair, with some help from dad, because I was like, I don't really understand this. They come, they deliver, they take out the old dishwasher, they put in the new one, and then the guy's like, Oh, sorry, like we can't hook up the hose to the water because of course it's always the fault of the person before they didn't, you know, do the exactly the kitchen wasn't installed correctly, blah blah blah. And I was like, Okay, so what are you gonna do? He's like, Well, nothing, like you just have to get a handyman to come in and like make a hole and like feed it through, blah blah blah. And I was like, So you've just taken out my dishwasher and told me that I can't have a functioning dishwasher and that I have to pay a handyman. Anyway, me being me, I was like, okay, give me five minutes. I was like, what is it, what needs to be connected to what? And he was like, this hose needs to cook to this hose. And basically there was like a panel that was preventing it from like being able to feed it into the bag. I literally got on my hands and knees and just started pulling at this wooden panel and like got a hammer and started hammering it and just ripped it out. Okay, and then I fed it through and I was like, it's working now. And you should have seen the face of the two guys. They were looking at me doing this, and they were like, Oh, like you actually just like did this, ripped out the wall, and I was like, it's all good now. And the guy was like, What? And there was like bits of wood like hanging out, and I was like, sorted it out, but this is the second time this has happened to me. Really? Yeah, I had um like one of those uh you know electric thermostats put in, and they had to plug something next to the electrical board, and my electrical board is like quite small, and the guy was like, Oh, the door is like in the way, I can't fit it in, so you'll have to get an electrician to redo the whole electric panel. And I was like, one moment, and again I got my hammer out and just ripped the door out of the whole thing, and then you were like, That would go. And I was like, Yes, space now, and he was like, Okay, and ended up putting it in. Oh, I did have to get a handyman to fix the door in the end, but I was like, I think of yeah handyman being dad. No, and it was an actual handyman because dad, if you ask him something like that, it'll take him two and a half years before he gets around to it. So because he has to like measure it 15 times for it to be perfect and get all the tools and so no no, this was this was professional, professional work. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

So you could sell yourself if if uh as handyman.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

I'm telling you, these arms and my hammer, I'm like, sort any problem out. I was just I think that I kind of gave them a little bit of a shock. Um, but then they respected me massively after they were like, is there anything else you know we can do? They were like, you know, it's all good, it's working, and I was like, Yeah. And there's the neighbours downstairs got we just don't talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

But yeah, so I really went went for it.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

Um that's good. So yeah. Saved yourself a couple hundred quid.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Seriously. I mean, I don't the back of my cupboard is not looking great, but figured it's the back of the cupboard, no one's gonna look there anyway. And my dishwasher works. Perfect. So it was a win-win. So that made me that kind of empowered me. And I think they kind of dismissed me as being like this little little woman who wouldn't be able to do this, but clearly they were pretty scared by the time they left.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, and they were like, okay, we're fine and they're like shuffling out. Exactly. Not turning their backs to you.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

No, yeah, they were put the hammer away.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

And this week you came up with the top you asked you sort of suggested I look up this guy, Joe Dispenser. Dispenser, I wasn't sure how you pronounce that, who I have been doing some research around. Okay. I mean, I think my first red flag was that he was interviewed by Jay Shetty.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

You knew you don't like you're not keen on Jay Shetty.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

He I ever since he got that nutritionist woman on his or nutrition woman, I should say, on his show, I it's really soured because she is dangerous. And I think that's such a shame. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

When you have such a big stuff in the sense of not, you know, I don't really have a massive opinion either at all, but I yeah, I wouldn't have thought any of this the kind of content is that any offensive, but I suppose it's because of this particular um Yeah, because I do think you have a responsibility when you have a platform like that. That big, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

And to not confront her about the statistics, to just let her have that platform on Yeah, it becomes then it's basically your selling You're an advertising board, you know, and you could put anything, you would sell anything. And I so that was kind of thing. The other thing that I thought was just such a ugh, like he was saying Joe Dispenser, oh, with just 20 p 20 minutes of meditation a day, you can change your life. And if you're someone who's busy, then you should be doing an hour of minutes ma uh meditation a day, and then Jay Shetty chimes in and he's like, Well, that's why I do two hours a day. Oh really? Yeah, and I didn't see this because it's a post. It was on YouTube. Oh on J on uh Joe Dispenser's own YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Oh, he wasn't he was interviewing uh Jay Shetty.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Other way around Jay Shetty was interviewing him.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Oh, I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Okay, so then this was five years ago.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Oh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

And I just remember what a s like what a BS kind of comment to be like, well, this is why I do two hours. It's like okay, mate, we get it, you're super busy, and you're you can med you can meditate for two whole hours like on your computer. Um so yeah, I just that was a big sort of like, oh, this is the kind of caliber. Um and then I went more down the like my trusted science-y route, and you know, there was um his branch of pseudoscience has definitely got some gaping holes in it. So that's at the point where I'm like, I think this person's taken something, and and and really a lot of his work is around meditation.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yes, yeah, you're right. He uses it so far that it's like life-changing and healing, and you know, it therefore he he kind of puts it on such it's not just meditative practices, it's like transformational life life-changing practices.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

He talks about changing your who you are in 20 minutes. And curing and it's a panacea of like or panacea. Panacea, panacea? Never heard that word. Like a a it's something that can solve all your problems. It's like a cure all. Panacea, panacea, panacea. Um and but yeah, he proclaims that meditation can and actually specifically on his website, it says he doesn't say that it can cure cancer, but he has he like touches on it in a really like the the line between saying meditation cures cancer, and people after meditating, you know, their cancer cells had disappeared, and you're like, that's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

And at that point, you're like, ah, that's I mean, I think pseudoscience, because I think what happens with him is that he has a result he wants to achieve and then kind of tries to fill it in with s evidence, yeah, instead of the other way around, like lets the evidence tell him a result, and so it's always a bit dangerous because he's looking for only the things that will fit his narrative narrative, and he goes, There's a whole piece on quantum physics that is I don't know much about quantum, but it's already like BS. It is, and but then it's a shame because in a way his meditations attract millions of people around the world, and like he has he's got such a powerful like following. Why what's the meditation in itself can be so powerful? Why add science to it that's not really dri proven and driven? Like I felt like there was no need. If he just put himself out there as the leader in meditation that really can transform your life in that calibre, then that should be sufficient. It and and clearly it does help people. People attest to having changed, you know, their health, um, the way they live, the way they behave. So I feel like it's a bit of a shame that he then has to bring in the scientific element which is not very accurate and not very evidence-based on a bunch on on something that actually doesn't need it because it is speaking for itself as being successful.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

And there is some valid science sort of around, you know, reducing stress levels. Yeah, of course. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

And actually also reducing like pro-inflammatory markers and you know increasing even in brain health, if you meditate 10 to 12 minutes a day, they s it's very, very clearly been proven that over a period of time your brain changes. Yeah. So it's it's not that on MRI scans.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

This is not um it's fMRI scans, yeah, that they did they're like brain mapping scans.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yes, exactly. So it th this is what I mean, is like w I feel like you didn't he didn't need to go the extra mile because it's already changing positively people's way of living and their their happiness and their lives, so therefore, why throw in this kind of scientific piece which Yeah, and I feel like already if you can I believe that stress is the new age pandemic, excess stress.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

We we are all constantly living in a heightened level of stress, and I feel like that is already a big enough achievement, right? If you can help people manage stress in reduce it, and reduce it and live happier, healthier lives, and and we know that stress has lots of downwards, you know, um impacts on other parts of our health, whether it's sleep, whether it's heart disease or you know, even glucose regulation, things like that. So, you know, it's you if you can already help with that aspect, uh why do you need to throw in like cancer and genetic disorders and you know, you feel like that's just you've gone too far.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

That's and this is why and and and uh that's where I don't kind of buy into him. That's why I don't I don't particularly follow his school of thought. Yeah. Because I think he he's taken something that was r that is really effective and genuinely, you know, very backed by science and then taking it too far and it's become a bit woo-woo because again this energy fields of quantum physics and things and and you you didn't need to add that, and therefore it's kind of then devaluing the value the the the proposition that he actually had, which was really I think very good. You know, if you're already able to sell out, you know, uh on meditation, you know, um uh retreats and and thousands of people and like a following that really believe you know test at having changed from that, I think that's a really good outcome already.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

But I I mean stepping away from this man specifically, what is really interesting though when you do look at the science is that it's it's still in that like it's promising, but there's so far nothing like super concrete, which is also really interesting because I I think a lot of um meta-analyses or review papers that looked at broad spectrum of a lot of these studies that were done actually came back quite inconclusive. About what though, what are you talking about? So, even with like improving quality of life and um some sort of just standard. Well, from meditation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

They're in the inconclusive.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Yeah. When you look at the the conglomerate of all of these studies, they actually fall on but, and this is the big but the problem is we don't have a very specific definition of what even mindfulness or meditation is and looks like. So it's a field which and like a lot of these, nutrition is somewhat simple similar, where it's without you know the discipline of structuring it, of you know, outlining what is mindfulness, what is meditation, then it becomes really hard to study. Yeah, and someone actually had a really good point. I was reading an article where they said the thing is people who tend to do that also tend to come from higher socioeconomic background, have a you know, uh higher um average income, have better diets, um, have more access to sort of wellness, yeah, you know, gym, parks, healthy food, etc. So we in a lot of these studies they don't account for these things. So you need to extract that and you need to be able to replicate, right? If you have a a method a method methodology, that's the one methodology, you need to be able to do it, and then someone on the other side of the world needs to be able to replicate it, and so you need to be able to get similar outcomes. And at the moment, this branch of science is still finding its interesting, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I hadn't thought about that. It's true when you say mindfulness to one person versus another, they're not going to have the same outcome.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

For Jay Shetty, it's two hours of meditation. For me, it's you know, two minutes on my car map. Probably very different type of outcome.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

And it's but it's I think what's interesting about it too is the idea that we also have to, we I think it'd be we'd be remiss to forget that probably the people who do think about this and who are more likely to enact it are the worried well. So people who are probably on the healthier side to start with, who are gonna explore these the worried well.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:41

It means people who are actually quite fit and healthy but are looking for like to become even more okay, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Right, go and they tell that's interesting, I've never heard of that term.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

And they come from usually high because they have time to think about their health. Whereas, you know, if you don't have the income, you're working like part-time jobs and you're looking after kids by yourself or whatever, you know, you're not gonna listen to a guy talking about meditating for two hours like that's it too far down the line.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, you're just thinking what kind of vegetables can I incorporate this week, maybe in my and that's even if you're thinking about vegetables, you know, at the some people, it's food.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

And so I think we are at the beginnings, but I do think there's like a long way to go. And I think if we want to see how this can be beneficial to all people in all backgrounds, then we need to take it to there. And it's usually those people that are the hardest to reach.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, that's a really good point. That's a really good point. No, no, you're right, and and like you say, like and then there's the whole thing people say it can be um, oh, just a couple of minutes of grounding work or of you know, like and and of course that's gonna have such a different effect than you know, deep meditation that's happening for hours and hours a day. Exactly. Um people devote their life to it, you know. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

And you know, I think the last piece on this too is application. It's something that they sell as being, oh, it's so simple, but it's not easy. I think doing 20 minutes of meditation even for a lot of people, that is it's a hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Do you know what I do?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

How do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 18:14

I get my um LED mask. Oh yeah. Because it has a 10-minute tap timer on it, and I put it on and I sit on my yoga mat and I just do my ten, so I just do 10 minutes whilst I have the mask on.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Oh, that's quite good.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

I do I I fold up my underwear. Really? You're not kind of meant to physically do something like that. I know, but that's and what and you just listen to something.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

But not for meditation, but I've got my red light mask on it. No, I'm talking about meditation. Tidy my room because I'm like, it's ten minutes, boom. And so I tidy my room up. So we have very different approaches.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

But I I think that's how I get my ten minutes of my meditation a day.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Don't meditate.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

I don't meditate. Maybe I should I did at one point. I started with the apps and it was quite good.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

I it's interesting you don't because you do a lot of exercise and you have like a PT and things, so you obviously have a physical way of like keeping your body active, so it's interesting your mind you're not wanting to keep it active in that sense. As in like Do you think everyone needs to meditate? I think everyone would benefit from meditation. I think it's a non-negotiable that if in the same way as everyone would benefit from getting their heart rate up, you know, okay, 10, 20, 30 minutes a day, just even if it's just you know, it's kind of I think a known fact in the medical uh 20 minutes or 30 minutes of sort of moderate exercise minimum a day that would be beneficial for everyone. I think it's the same if everyone could have 10 minutes of stilling their mind, I think that is would be 10 to 12 minutes, I think is kind of the the requirement if you want to have uh cease changes.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Is I think it would and what do you think are like the simplest form and like the most complexity?

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Well, first I think the simplest form it has to fit into your life, whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

So for me it's But the is it pure silence? Would the using like the apps help, or could it be like listening to it?

SPEAKER_00 20:08

I suppose is what it I suppose it's about trying and testing. Um I find that just breathing through it, literally breathing and bringing every single time your mind wanders, which is a lot, yeah, keep coming back to breathing. Yeah. But then for other people, it might be following a nap, someone else it might be a specific technique they've been taught. Um but in because I I also believe right if you wrongfully, for me, meditation is just breath work, it's really conscious breathing. So if I can come back to that, come back to consciously but you know, um acknowledging my breathing pattern, that's kind of a meditate that's meditation for me. Some people they do a lot of body mapping. Oh, what's that? You know, where you in your head say you're sitting um on your mat and trying to meditate and then you go through all the senses.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

So it's a way of you know essentially stopping and tuning in. And so you can do it. I find that a bit confusing sometimes, but it can be a good way to start.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Um but isn't that the opposite of clearing your like.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

No, the whole point, the whole point of the meditation is not to get allowed is to detach yourself from your thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

So by tuning into your body, you're then becoming aware of all your senses. I remember and you remove the visual just because it helps you um like tune into yourself, but then it's about trying to kind of visualize, I suppose, the insides of your maybe of your body, of how you're feeling, of or your senses. Mm-hmm. Um I remember the karma.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

That's how I they always refer to it like the clouds and you let them go. Like when the thoughts are a cloud, and then you perceive them as well, you pin it and then you let it go. 'Cause you're not attaching any importance to it. It's like acknowledging and letting it move or

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Do you remember that whole thing about making uh your brain like uh Betty or something? Oh, Becky. Yeah. Yeah, it's removing third personing it. You're kind of doing the same thing, you but you become a bystander of your thoughts. Yeah. And so however that works for you, for me, the breathing exercise is a good way because it just reminds you of being in the present constantly. Interesting. Therefore, you don't kind of take yourself out.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Could it be like, you know, some people say, oh, I find like cooking is like meditative for me, or does that kind of negate the whole point?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I s I think the the that, and I know people do this with like um deep focus. I think that's more being in the flow. Yeah. Like more of a um default mode network where you go into like a flow state. Okay. And therefore you are not actually overthinking and panicking about things and going into you are really in the present.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

But in my interpretation, and this is not, you know, Bible, but is that then you're in a flow state, so time becomes like a bit irrelevant, and you're just like, and it can be a cooking, it could be puzzle, it could be ceramic, something where you're just like, oh my god, how did that go for two hours? I would say meditation is not that, but it's equally beneficial, I suppose, in or that would be a way of de stressing and a way of staying present.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

But it's not a meditative uh practice.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Not if not if you say that medi not if you believe that meditation is about, you know, I suppose like becoming a bystander of your thoughts and allowing them to pass and not attaching any importance to them. And a way of practising that is coming back to your breath.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Okay. So when I was ripping That's not meditative, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Or when hammer was a very good thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's another way of de stressing, or you know, yeah, people who yeah, because often deep concentration will require that. For me, for example, driving is not at all meditative. It is stressful. No one else is meditating around because I don't enjoy it and I'm not in a flow, but I I suppose I use so much concentration to drive, and I'm just talking like highway driving, that I'm actually not really thinking about other things. Okay. Because I really need to use all my concentration. But that's not meditating, no, no, that's what I'm saying. It's not. But some people would say that they can actually go into like creativity whilst they're driving, you know. Or they go into their own because they're they some people would have to- You're just like staying there. I'm literally like, oh my gosh, I really I find it a stressful activity.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

So for me, but you know, you know, see what I mean? Like there's I think that's the difference. In my opinion, that's the difference between I do think like being in that um I don't flow state is different to being in a meditative practice.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

I think it's really interesting that you would say though that everyone would benefit like it's kind of like exercise, meditation, everyone would benefit from meditating.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

I certainly think I think people who I get it is actually quite difficult and it takes it. This is the other thing, because it doesn't happen overnight. You have to sit time and time and time and again, consistently, every single day, and commit to it before you start seeing change. So of course, after a couple of days, it's like, ugh, I haven't noticed the difference. Ugh, I can't be bothered. Oh, 10 minutes doesn't say exactly. Yeah, and so for hence why I I only started doing it recently again because I felt like I'd done it, had done it for years and years and years, and then obviously, um, you know, life changes, baby, lack of sleep, like well, like it a lot of things get got in the way, and then you can't fall off the habit. And so reclaiming that habit has been quite difficult for me purely because of a time con you know, figuring out when to do it best, and so I just figured actually that time where I have the mask on for 10 minutes is great.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah, and it gives me that ability to and it becomes an association, you're like, okay, mask, you then you only have to think about doing one thing, which is put the mask on. Yeah, and also because there's not much else you can do with the mask on. No, it's not great.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I mean, when I'm folding my my underwear, I'm like, but you know, it could be anything for anyone, but I suppose um I do think it's a hu an amazing way to find ground grounding to expand like your mental health wellness, allow you to be s calmer, safer, better in your head, more creative as a result afterwards, less stress. Yeah. I think the once you really allow it to be part of your life, I I do think it has hu like it does have the benefits uh like whether I say they're transformative, I don't know, but they are incredibly benefit it's incredibly beneficial, yeah. But and because we live in this world which is like go, go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

That's true. I do think it's it's definitely probably um a counterbalance that a lot of people are missing. It's like that relaxation.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

And actually interestingly, there's a lot of evidence to s to support. They did uh very famously like with the um uh they did a group of uh army soldiers in Afghanistan, the American Army, where they split them into groups to see one applied like a regime of mindfulness, i.e. meditation practice, and the other didn't. And over an eight-week period of time they found that the ones who had uh been in the mindfulness group were so much better at dealing with conflict, yeah, actual conflict, like you know, um emergency situations, problem solving, um you know, a range of and and this is in a war situation. So pretty stressful, yeah, pretty stressful versus the other group. Yeah. So I mean, this is what I mean. They they have there's actually quite a lot of interesting data around like that helps you to cope.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

But again, I think it goes back to I think the evidence is actually relatively if still nascent but quite strong around stress management. Why do you have to throw in so many other like issues? Like already dealing with stress and stressful situations is an amazing tool to have.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Um yeah, well, I need to say that um it it can cure cancer or that it can like, yeah, no, I agree, agreed.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Someone that I know recently is for like health purposes, starting to do breathing. Uh was basically told every night to do 10 minutes of breathing. And it's an app, but the app all it does is it's like a line, it's like a wave that goes up and down, and you basically breathe in when it goes up and down, and it just guides you through the breathing. And it your phone slightly vibrates when it gets to the inhale, exhale. And the first few weeks it was like, oh, I have to do my exercise, I have to, and now they're literally just like holding their phone, eyes closed, and just getting really feeling the benefits of it.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

So I do think that is basically a roundabout way of getting someone to meditate.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Of course, but at the beginning it started off as like, okay, well, it's a challenge exercise. Like, can you follow and stay as close as you possibly can within the zigzag lines? And then after a few weeks, then it became like okay, well, I'm having to set aside these 10 minutes, I might as well make it more What what the reasons that they were sent to do this breathing exercise? This was sleep.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Oh, it to sleep there, you yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Um and you know, and also to stress manage and sorry, to manage stress. Um, and I think yeah, it was just one of the plus other things that they're taking on into their lifestyle. But this I what I found really interesting was seeing the the difference between the oh I have to to now is like oh I get to and actually finding the benefits from doing the breathing exercise as a form of meditation.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Yeah, basically that's if it's a bit of a it's a just I in my opinion, it's just a packaging way of getting someone to meditate. It's like do these breathing exercises, and often for men that works better for than for women. Yeah, exactly. And so it's you know a great essentially a great way to say to people like this is gonna help you lower your stress, manage this, manage that, and as a result get better quality sleep, more grounded, more peaceful. You you you don't have so much reactivity when things happen, and that's a whole part of meditation, you're able to like remove yourself from a situation a lot easier, you know. This is and that this is where there's so many different benefits from it. But um actually in a way, I I find that when I you know meditation uh has a a place in so many different aspects because if you follow, of course, part for example, if you you do yoga, meditation is a huge part of yoga and um you know the whole spirituality around uh the practice. Uh many religions have a type of meditation. I suppose prayer is a kind of meditation. Uh of course there's the Buddhist Buddhists that meditate, the monks. Yeah. Um in Islam they have the prayer, they have exactly and so in a way it kind of finds a place in so many different modalities and ways of you know, um, whether it's practicing faith, whether it's practicing uh yeah, anything spiritual of some kind. And so I think that's where I get attached to it is because it allows you for a moment not to be a physical presence of like just like a sign, you know, like a body, you know, like kind of a physical being. A physical being. It's it is a spiritual element to acknowledging that as in it has a place in spirituality, which I think says a lot about how important meditation is for me.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

This is when you've lost me.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, because you then yeah, but then but what I'm saying as well, if if you have the if now you know more science-backed evidence, then it also has a place in science.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Oh yeah, and for me, that's what I attach myself to, right? It's this element where I'm like, oh, I can shift like my synapses and my brain can be. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

So it all there's a big part. I remember ages and ages and ages ago, after doing loads of research on different things, I came, I wrote a blog about meditation.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Did it was in did it go viral?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Absolutely not. But it basically made me think like all of these things that you read about in so many fields of life, they kind of have a hugely unifying factor about the the the belief of well of like um quieting your mind.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I agree. And also maybe at different phases of your life it will be different things. Maybe at one point you need to turn to prayer, maybe at one point you need to look at science, yeah. Maybe you, you know, for one person it might be about breathing exercising or breathing techniques, uh, you know, and therefore, you know, that's a physical aspect, and then an a well, you know, and so there's there's a I suppose it's like know your audience and target it through that way.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And put the right marketing.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yes, and put the right marketing on it.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

You're sort of repackaging. It could be prayer, it could be breathing, it could be meditate, it could be lots of different ways of, but ultimately you're trying to get someone to dissociate their mind from their body for a fraction of a time. Of in their daily life. There we go. We've broken down meditation. Yes, so it's building blocks.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, no, but you're absolutely right, it's like a marketing like who's your audience and how are you gonna sell it to them? That's been really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

I mean, I and we don't have time today, but this is something I will want to bring up later on is about hypnosis, which is I mean That's like uh uh delta waves, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Hypnosis is subconscious. Yeah, but isn't it in your brain waves? In the delta ones, slightly different brain waves to dissimilar to the ones that you go into when you're in meditation.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Exactly. W with the difference being that so it's been said that hypnosis is kind of getting yourself in a state of meditative state, but then having like a therapeutic implication. Whereas meditation, the goal is that in hypnosis it you kind of take it beyond that.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

But we need to talk about that another time because that's a whole other But it's I think uh if I'm my understanding of it is correct of hypnosis, it's similar brain waves that you're getting into. And then yeah, you're right, there's an extra layer with the hypnosis you can actually tweak things.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Absolutely, and to some extent, you know, I there's a kind of a part of me which is you know, hypnosis is really placebo, yeah, packaged as something different, but it's so so powerful. So powerful. And it's meditation packages, something different. But exactly, it's kind of a type of meditation, it's another form of meditation. So, you know, and and I think it's totally fine to accept all of those things and also understand that if it has its desired therapeutic effect, then and and this is kind of my parting comment, I think, for the meditation piece, which is what is the harm in trying?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Yeah, and actually I would say if if everyone could find something that works for them, it would be a shame to go through your days and therefore your weeks and therefore your months and therefore your years without doing any type of meditative practice in your day. So, I gene, just from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep, not try and steal your mind for 10 minutes a day. That would be a shame. Yeah. Because you're missing and and whichever package you pick up, whichever marketing package you choose to make it. It would be a shame not to.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

And uh yeah. And what again, what's the harm in trying in not trying you know, in trying? It's at worst, it's 10 minutes where you've had like a bit of a piece of quite you might fall asleep and you were tired. That's probably what you should have done. Um, but yeah, ultimately it's not like a medication or a drug or an intervention where side effects we're literally asking you're being asked to do none of that. Exactly. And it's just using something that's very much ingrained in built that you have access to, but it's about just finding the access to it.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

And I think in a way, if you are resisting it, are you saying I can't do it, I don't like doing it, I find it boring, I don't have time for it. What are you yeah, if you're resisting it, there's m even more of a reason to be doing it.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

And like Jay Shetty, if you're busy, do two hours. Yeah. Because you know, he's that busy.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Exactly. But yeah, okay. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Sounds good. So actually, I'm gonna challenge myself. I'm gonna try and do every day for the next week, ten minutes, with my red light mask on. Exactly. I'll tell you how I feel after ten after a week. Am I supp I'm gonna be a new person, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Transformed.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Trans is it transformed your skin will be better.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

But my mind will be the same. You'll be like, I love your skin.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

I'll be like, you see, that's because of meditation.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

There you go. We're gonna we're gonna start attributing it to that. The red light mask has nothing to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Okay, cool. Thank you so much for watching Shift Happens. Um you can listen to this episode and all the other all the other episodes, um, wherever you get your podcasts, and releasing now every Friday. So make sure you like, you subscribe, send us some comments, and yeah, looking forward to next week. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Have a good day.