Unpacking Perfectionism

In this episode of Shift Happens, we unpack perfectionism, what it really is, how it shows up, and why it can hold us back. We explore the idea that perfectionism isn’t a personality trait, but a response to fear, control, and the pressure to avoid failure, often leading to procrastination and inaction.

We discuss the different ways perfectionism presents itself, its link to imposter syndrome, and how it can appear in areas like work, social media, and even our relationship with food. Through personal reflections and real-life examples, we highlight how striving for perfection can become a self-fulfilling cycle.

If you’ve ever felt stuck waiting for things to be “perfect” before starting, this episode offers a more realistic perspective on progress, mindset, and letting go of unrealistic standards.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Right. We're back. We're back. Do I look turned? Mm-hmm. Very tanned. That sounds like a a real sister. Mm-hmm. So turned. So, Legs, I have a question for you. Are you perfect? Close enough. Close enough. Close enough. No. Yeah. Would you describe yourself as perfect? No, I would definitely not, definitely not describe myself as perfect. Yeah. What's your answer to that? Are you perfect? Am I perfect? Definitely not perfect. I am far from. But I do think today's topic, we really wanted to talk about perfectionism. And I always think it's really interesting because when you ask someone whether they think they're perfect, clearly they're gonna say no. I don't believe anyone believes that they are totally perfect. And yet, and you will see that with your clients, and I see it definitely with mine, people strive for perfection, right? People are trying to get their everything perfect, their steps in, their nutrition. I'm sure with you it's you know mindfulness and things like that. And yet, no one's perfect, so we're kind of what doomed to fail. So interesting how you entered that because I don't think necessarily that people want to get things perfect, but they do have a a perfectionist trait sometimes. Okay. So it's aspects of their lives that they try to perfectly. Exactly. Or like yeah, or like is that like you say, they don't d no one would describe themselves as perfect, but they kind of have this perfectionism trait, and I think it it isn't like a character thing, yeah. It's more a maybe an attitude to something. Okay. So i you wouldn't say I'm k perfect, yeah, but you might say my work is has to be perfect, like I I strive for perfectionism or I won't enter into marriage until my relationship is like in in the perfect. Yeah. So it's more like a a a relationship to something than actually like describing yourself as a character. That's really interesting, actually. So I get it a lot whereby it's more about like um I I pick up on it when people and like I see this in myself, so I'm also talking about myself. It's it's often the reason why you procrastinate or you don't do something, yeah, you don't start something, you don't it like embrace uh uh change in the same way uh as if you didn't have that character, that that kind of attitude to it. Yeah. So I'd say it's more like a hindrance, and that's when I pick up on it, and I would say to someone, would you describe yourself as a perfectionist? And then they say yes. So a few things that so do you think perfectionism is kind of like a fear of failure? 100%. Okay. It's like a fear of. Yeah. So it's sort of you're you're trying to get things so perfectly in line so that it cannot fail. Yeah. And therefore you're kind of constantly pushing it off because you're never quite there. It doesn't necessarily be failure, but it could be a fear of anything, of not doing it right, of not doing it properly, of failing, quote unquote, like I suppose. But it's I think it's more around so it's yes, it's a fear of something of of criticism. Of criticism. Yes, you know. Okay, but that could be deemed as failure, right? This like this perception of what I'm gonna put out in the world, whatever that is, has to meet a standard that people will approve of in whichever kind of way that that is. And I think that actually, so that fear is something that's not in your control. So it's actually more of a control thing. Yes. Okay. Because if you are perfect and you deliver perfect work or perfect uh outcome of some kind, um, then you would expect that you no one could criticize you, no one will judge you, uh it will it'll be a success, etc. Therefore, you have control the whole narrative. Yeah. Whereas if you don't have something perfect in your what you believe perfection to be, then you open yourself up to being judged and being criticized and being uh questioned and being and putting something out there that isn't quote unquote perfect. So, what would be the symptoms of someone who is a perfectionist? Because I think we hear I think a lot of people to a some extent love to describe themselves. Would you describe yourself as a perfectionist? Definitely not. You'd never at all. I don't think I'm a perfectionist. Okay. I've always had more of a macro view on things. Like I I've always one of my favorite sentences is that perfectionism is the um wait, what do I say? I should know this. Perfectionism is the uh enemy of of uh progress. Isn't that comparison? No, what I use perfectionism is the enemy of progress because I think if you're striving for from comparison is the enemy of maybe, and I've clemmified it. Yeah, I've clarified it. Because I do think that people will put off doing something because you're targeting what it causes. You're trying to get all the finer details, and I've usually been a bit of a if it's 80% there, then it's fine, it's like a hundred, and then you'll finish building the ship as you say that I'm mixing lots of analogies here, but no, I wouldn't describe myself as a perfectionist, and I don't think I really ever have. But I do I hear it a lot, and especially in sort of a-type people, people who are very sort of organized, and they're like, Well, I'm just such a perfectionist. Um and I do think there is a bit of a clout over like, well, I'm a natural perfectionist. Well, it's do you know what it is? It's also one of those weird qualities. Uh it's it's a weird attribute that people think it's a quality, but it's not. It's the classic thing that if someone, you know, in an interview said, What's your best, what's your worst trait? And you were like, Well, you know what, I'm a perfectionist, everything I do has to be delivered great. But I realize that's not the way, you know, it's one of those like those like four. Yeah, those fake failures, yeah. And I think it does have because it's not like saying, 'Yeah, I'm always late.' You're not going to say that in an interview and say, Yeah, my my timekeeping is so terrible that I'm always late, and the guy's going to look at you and go, Okay, thank you. But I feel like perfectionism has that kind of, you know, yeah, like I know it's not a good thing, but then the interviewer's like, well, it's good for us. Yes, or like I just deliver work perfectly. Yeah. Uh but see, I would describe myself at times to being a perfectionist. Yeah. I definitely have that requirement for control or perceived control. Yeah. Um, that requirement of like not wanting to put my to put it out there until I believe it's deemed to be good enough. I don't think it's in every area of my life at all, but certainly in certain areas. And so when I hear someone described the when I hear someone describe the the symptoms, I can definitely relate to them. What are the symptoms? So it's certainly like putting things off. Um essentially thinking it has to be a certain standard before it has any value, or yeah, you know, it would be appreciated by anyone or anything. I think it's I suppose I wouldn't say I massively procrastinate, but yeah, I can see that procrastination is around that as well. Well, you put it off, put it off, put it off. Um, I would say definitely control like the needs, and that can come up in different ways for different people, but certainly it it revolves around controlling aspects of your life, and also I think again, it for me would definitely, and I think for many people, it flares up in stressful situations. So it's so it's like a coping mechanism for stressful situations. So as you get more stressed, you would want to exert more control. There you go, and therefore in my so in someone's else's life, maybe that would be like drink more, work more, um, you know, work, you know, big yeah, focus more. Focus more on one thing. Whereas for me, if I got more and more stress, I'd probably exert more and more control on perfection being getting something perfect. Are there, and kind of going back to what you said, are there specific areas of your life that you think you have more perfectionistic traits than others? Probably it used to be maybe with work, not so much anymore, I don't think. Um like a plan. Probably things when it came to like putting together a plan. Okay. So I mean, and I mean like a big picture plan, yeah. Like I would probably want to get all my ducks in a row before executing. Whereas now I definitely don't see the value in the same way as that, but that would have probably been a way it would have come out. You can't do that as an entrepreneur. I mean, if you did that, you would never no, and also I think age and experience makes you realise that that just doesn't happen. You mentioned do I would describe myself as being a perfectionist. I actually thought about that question for a long time. Like trying to think of are there moments where I've tried to be a perfectionist or I've tried to do something perfectly, and I think a random story that kind of popped into my mind was, and I remember this so distinctly, I was at university and I had said to myself, right, I'm gonna go to the gym like every day for a month. Like I'm just gonna What seven days a week? Seven days a week for 30 days, like every single day. And it was in the middle of my final year's like exam, so stressful period. Probably the worst time to really be starting this, but I thought, you know, this is gonna be a good good idea to do that. And I remember I was going to the gym to go for this yoga class that I had signed up to, and I turned up, I promise you, like two minutes late. And the woman with the clipboard would just not let me in. Like she was having none of it, and I just bawled my eyes out. I was sobbing in what was supposed to be like a relaxing like yoga class, like just outside this oh, actually, it was like by the counter. And to me, I think that was like I was trying to be perfect, I was trying to do something so perfect perfectly, and the downside of it is that then I just stopped going to the gym for like weeks until I kind of plucked up the courage again. And I think that's a really classic cycle that we see with perfectionism, right? It's this classic sort of try to do something perfectly, put an unrealistic plan into place. Something happens inevitably, like life happens. Fall off the bandwagon, whatever that might look like, whether it's from a diet perspective or a gym perspective or whatever, and then there's a moment of sort of uh guilt, self-hatred, or you know negative talk, self-talk, until you kind of rouse yourself back up again and then again set another plan with unrealistic expectations, and it's kind of an ongoing cycle. Okay. I mean, I wouldn't call that a perfectionism moment, but yeah. No, no, I think I was trying to do something just so perfectly. I was trying, I mean, maybe no, maybe it is, but I suppose I see it more is like if you exert perfectionism, you probably wouldn't do something because you haven't quite gotten there. Or like you you you would say, um, I don't know, like so may imagine if um you in your situation you probably would be like, I'm not even gonna go to the yoga class until I've done like X amount of yoga uh YouTube videos in my room, and then I feel comfortable going there and not being like a novice. Or you might say, um, yeah, I'll I'm gonna do 30 days of going to the gym and I'm gonna follow the same like routine and do it really, really to the like utmost best of my ability. So I don't look stupid, feel stupid, look like a novice, you know, or weirdo or anything like that. That's more how I would maybe interpret it. And actually, weirdly, now that you've said that, I have none of it when I go to the gym. Yeah. As in, I'm I'm very happy to do like to not be media to good, like as long as it's like, you know, no perfectionism needed. It doesn't come up in places like the gym for me, it doesn't come up in places like the yoga studio. I'm quite happy to go somewhere new that I don't know and be like, never been here, don't know, don't know how this works, you know. I'd say for me, it's definitely more in performance of uh probably like again, it didn't come up at all during education. I was quite happy with like 60%, yeah, you know, 60 to 70% for me, like but just above average was good enough. Yeah, like I had to always, yeah, you never needed to be like 90% you never felt like you needed to be the first one in the class or but I think it more comes up whereby it's things so performance-based, but more like um I suppose work-related, where you feel out of place. Yeah. So maybe when I started my career in commodities imposter syndrome, yes, and actually imposter syndrome is very closely linked to per perfectionism. So people who have imposed performing to try and disguise maybe some negative self or like some self-doubt. Yes, because essentially imposter, I don't I'm not like an expert in that space, but I think imposter is basically feeling like you don't belong. Yeah, feeling like you don't own that space, maybe because it's you know it would the industry you work in, you know, the people you work around, your skill set, etc. And so you feel like you're not good enough. Yeah. And I think the way to counterbalance that is trying to be perfect and work harder, longer, uh more thoroughly, etc. So often it would sh if someone describes imposter, they would often have traits of perfectionism, I'd say. Interesting. So with the story that I described then, what would you think that was more? Was that more because it there's an element of that perfectionism, which is that unrealistic sort of believing that your life needs to look like this perfec this perfection. I think it was just more the fact that you were like, I don't think it made me a perfectionist, but I think I was trying to emulate this idea of like, well, for me to be good at yoga, I need to get into that. I need to be fit, like I need to be going every day. When actually, if I had just started with like once a week or twice a week, that still would have been better than my baseline, which was none at the time. And so I think it's this unreal, like setting these unrealistic expectations. Yeah. But I guess there's kind of two aspects. There's that was probably just unrealistic. Yeah. It was it was probably not a very, very uh realistic thought-out plan, and therefore day two or three of the hurdle, you you just realized it was like you were at the bottom of the mountain. The mountain was so steep, and you got there, and the first person said no, you were like, Oh my god, I'm never gonna get to the and I'm not sure that's perfectionism, but I suppose I know what you mean. It's the you're saying it's the unrealistic expectation that you set on yourself. Yeah, or it's almost like there's two types. There's sort of people who are perfectionists or who have these perfectionistic traits, if we don't want to tendencies tendencies, sorry, these per uh perfectionist tendencies around specific aspects of their lives, who then struggle to switch it off almost, and then people who believe that to achieve something it requires them to have to be perfect in that thing in order to achieve that goal. Yeah, but I think fundamentally in my the way I uh I kind of view it is it's two things. It's like it's the fear of failure or of rejection, yeah, and then because of an output that you can't control. So it's kind of there's a control element to it, yeah, and there's a fear element to it. Yeah. And I feel like it's like if I can control the present moment, i.e., what I'm trying to make perfect, then my future won't fail. Yeah. For sure. But I think there's almost this is what I'm trying to, I guess, describe as I think there's two aspects to perfectionism or to this topic that we're talking about. There's the one which is people who are debilitated by it, right? Like people who are not able to push through. Yeah. So they're because they can't control their own way. Yeah. And people who, for some reason, like myself, who see putting together this supposed perfect scenario as the only way that they can achieve a goal. Oh, right, yes. Okay, yeah. So who kind of strive for perfectionism, but it's doesn't, it's not their natural way of being. Okay, so but yeah, okay. So then, yeah, okay. So in both sense, though, yeah. The point kind of being that it doesn't achieve a goal because the two things miss out the crucial piece, which we both know is it's systems over kind of goals at the time. Exactly. It's putting the systems in place, whether it's the perfectionist or the person with that perfectionistic tendency who can't get out of their way, and instead of just saying, Okay, well, the process is good enough for it to go out, or the person who's more like me who is like, Well, I have to be going to the gym every day for a month for me to be fit and healthy and blah blah blah. So it's either zero or hundred. Yeah. Okay, yeah, okay. So I wouldn't identify in that. I would more identify in like it's a if if I feel stressed or if I feel unskilled or incapable, it's like a coping mechanism to overcome that. Yeah.

unknown 19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

So if I'm in a situation where I feel like I'm not good enough or I'm not sure. You're gonna overcompensate. I'm gonna overcompensate, and so that's my coping mechanism is to turn to uh perfectionism. Whereas you're saying it's more that if you want to do something that seems out of reach, you're gonna try and get everything perfect to get to it. Well, I'm gonna believe that I have to do everything perfect. I mean you're trying more to do it from a control perspective, like controlling the environment so that you can get to the perfect goal, perfection goal, like the goal. To the goal, whatever it is. But it's sort of it's a bit like but where else have you okay, other than this example, can you because that could be a fluke as well. Revision. Okay. I used to plan the most beautiful revision. Okay, it's just procrastination a bit. It's a form of procrastination, but my timetables, they were colour-coded, they were amazing. I probably never did them. Did you get 100%? Never. Exactly. So actually, it was just a way of like thinking, if I have everything in place, yeah, I have this perfect plan to revise, then I will get all the information in my brain, and therefore I'll have the better. Exactly. I had the key. Yeah, so I'd definitely say it's more of a pro procrastination or like um it's under the guise of perfection. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But it's not the way I use it. No, no. But it's an interesting point of view because I do think it's also from your internal traits of how you're kind of coming at it. Interestingly, though, we both know that perfectionism is not any way. 90% of people would know, like you say, if you asked them, are you perfect, they would say no. And most most importantly, 90% of you know, people would probably say perfectionism doesn't exist, it's not possible, it's uh you know, something we can't achieve, you know, we shouldn't even strive to achieve, etc. So from a from a um I suppose rational point, more or less everyone knows it's not achievable, and yet, and yet we still find it crop up in the way we behave, yeah, depending on what you know in our actions to towards certain things. And I'm sure people could definitely, I'm thinking now, like the classic example I could think of now is like um starting a new business, yeah, or leaving your current job, because so leaving security and certainty, or quote unquote what we think is secure and certain, going into uncertainty, and therefore thinking, okay, I'm only gonna do it if this is you know, yeah, essentially perfect, per you know, putting a perfect product out there before launching, putting a perfect business proposal before sending it to an investor, you know, all of these things that we do, which actually all it's doing is it's pushing the can the can further down the road because you're just not doing it. It's a yeah, it's a fear of failure, it's a procrastination tool, and ultimately is this self fulfilling prophecy, right? If you're trying to achieve perfection, which everyone kind of knows is not possible, then you'll never have to commit to doing it, and therefore it won't happen. Yeah, exactly. And so you could always use it as an excuse and say, Oh, you know, I'm not starting my own business because I haven't got the product quite right, or I'm not starting my business because I haven't finalised like my proposal for my you know investment, or et cetera, or your my services, etc. So it's always a good reason not to do something. The classic one, well, I think this is a really big one, especially around my age category, but if people say, you know, oh, for like having kids, like wanting to make sure that everything is set up, you know, that there's enough funds in the bank account, that the house is perfect, or whatever. When actually anyone who's ever had kids will tell you there's never a perfect time to have kids, like it's it will always disrupt your life as ready or as prepared as you want it to be. Absolutely. Um, so that's a really interesting one. Yeah. And then I think the final well, I don't think we can talk about perfectionism and we have we can't not talk about social media. Okay. Because I do think it has a lot to answer for. Okay, tell me more about that. What do you mean? Well, this is kind of coming back to this comparison piece. Okay. And I think why a lot of people strive for perfectionism. Oh, because it looks like that on in other people's lives. Exactly. And people forget that those are edited versions of people's lives. But yet, time and time again, I think people are, you know, just being like, Yeah, that's what you know, so and so is doing. And they're doing they've got this crazy morning routine and they have a six-pack or a successful job, and they have kids and and a successful business, and all of that. Oh, yeah. No nannies, no nannies, no help, you know, all of that. And you're like, one, you're relying on the fact that they're telling the truth. Yeah, which they're not. They might not. Let's assume some of them are dubious enough to be lying. Heaven forbid, social media is not actually totally accurate. And two, it's just it's a front. So it's edited, it's clipped. Yeah. You know, all those holidays they show you, that probably might have happened over months, but they're gonna clip it into something that looks like that happened in a few weeks. Yeah. And they repeat things and people post from loads way back when. So it again, it's this idea that it's unrealistic, it's not a reality, it's not the real reality. It's not reality, it's a form of edited perfectionism, which I do think influences people's brains. And I think over time you then see it. Yeah, what if I have to have children? Well, it's kind of the Instagram versus reality completely. And if I'm gonna have kids, then I have to look like this. If I'm gonna have a successful business, it has to look like this. If I'm gonna wake up in the morning and have like a husband who's they have this five to nine routine, you know, oh my gosh, 5 a.m. to 9 a.m. You're like, oh my goodness. I know even brush my hair by the time it's like eight. I'm usually barely out of the house by nine o'clock, and I'm trying to be at work by nine. I mean, it's and I don't even have kids. So I honestly I'm like, I don't know how yeah, these people do it, but and then you reality check and you're like, they probably don't is the answer to that. And I think that is where it can get really toxic because I do think then people just they see this and they see the success, perceived success. Success comes in lots of different forms. Um, and then yeah, that's a good point. Do you think they have to try and emulate that? And I do, and I think when it comes from a diet perspective, you know, you have these crazy people who talk about, you know, the good and bad foods and the clean foods and all of that, and you have to eat in a really specific way, and it has to be so structural, and you need that many grams of protein and that many grams of fat and that many grams and like nobody eats like that, like it's just not realistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. So I do think social media has a part to play, and I think again, and I know I mean we can say it until we're blue in the face, but it's really like imagine for a second that person's real life behind the camera, right? What they've put out, they've put out, you can see that, but is you know the rest of their house a complete tip? Are there five people working full time? Is it even their house? I mean, people pay, you know, to be cooking in somebody else's kitchen. Exactly. So there's so many questions that you have to bring up. Now there might be elements that you're like, oh, that's interesting, maybe I'll adopt that. But I think trying to replicate someone's life as your own is just doomed for failure. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really again about heavily questioning reality, but also or what what that perceived reality is, and also really looking at or internalizing the fact that perfection does not exist. Exactly. So you're fundamentally, and and if you really acknowledge that, then you can say, okay, well, so actually what am I if I'm trying to literally trying to achieve something that's impossible to emulate, then I'm doomed for fail, I'm doomed for to fail. Yeah, and therefore I'm already, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, like a sabotage. Yeah. But I think if you I think the takeaway is if you see perfection, then it's not real. Yes. Because it cannot. That's a really good. Oh, that's very powerful. If you see perfection, it's not real. It can't be. Yeah. Because we know if there's one thing we know for sure is that perfectionism doesn't exist. So if you're seeing it, it can't be real. Yeah. So question it. Yeah. And then stop trying to compare yourself as a result. You're comparing yourself to fake. Yeah. I mean, now they have these AI profiles. And I think also notice that why you are trying to put something out there that is perfect, then notice is it because you're what fearful of what is this fear of, and then work your way back a bit, say, okay, I don't want to uh enter this situation because I worry that that person's going to leave me or that I'm going to fail like this or it's not going to work out. And so go back to okay, so it's a you're trying to protect yourself then. You're just trying to do something that is it's like a mechan a coping mechanism of some type. Absolutely. And then that makes you understand a bit more, I think, as to like why it's why it's showing up in your in your life. Yeah. That awareness already is incredibly helpful at breaking it down. I mean, awareness will always help you to kind of break things down, but I think I think understanding that perfectionism comes in a few different ways. I think as we've discussed, from someone who has more perfectionistic tendencies versus someone who's not, but will still somehow for some reason try and emulate perfectionism. And then how do you identify it? And then what are some ways that you can kind of counteract it? Yeah. Irrespective which way you're kind of coming from it. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, and then also social media is yet again to blame. To blame. Just another one for the social media. I bet you it's probably one of those things as well that has like grown in with the generation of social media. Because if you ask someone, you know, 30 or 40 years ago about perfectionism, because there isn't the comparison and there isn't social media and all that, they probably had a very much lower expectation of outcomes. Yeah. Because they were realistic and that what they would see around them. It wasn't around them. If you don't know it exists, how can you even compare yourself to it, right? And I think that says a lot in itself. It's sort of if you hadn't seen that thing, would you have given it a go? Because a bit of naivety sometimes is not a bad thing. Because you think, okay, well, I might as well give it a shot and see what happens. So thank you so much for watching Shift Happens. Um, this is our tenth episode. You can catch this episode and all our other episodes uh wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see you next time. Thank you so much. So, this is a little quick add-on because with Olivia, just as we were packing up, I think we realized there was something that we didn't address, which is kind of really important, which is why I'm sitting in her chair. When it comes to fear of failure, it's really questioning what is the actual potential risk that you might be facing. So, you know, what is the potential worst outcome? And what is the worst that could happen, basically? What is the worst thing that could happen if you put yourself out there? And what is the magnitude of that and how much that could impact you or harm you? And by relativizing that and rationalizing that, that could help you to really take that first step.