The Drive
The Drive is a podcast that helps business owners scale from $100,000 to $1 million. You’ll experience the back stories and secrets from millionaires who had the mindset to grow beyond the ordinary. The Drive exists to help expedite your growth so you can build the life you want. Learn more at harveytime.com.
The Drive
Ep 11: From Saving Souls to Saving Seniors: The Insurance Evangelist Keith Thomason
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What do ministry, swimming pools, and final expense insurance have in common? For Keith Thomason, they're all chapters in one of the most remarkable origin stories in the insurance industry.
In this episode, Craig sits down with his longtime mentor, Keith Thomason — a man who led an organization to $45 million in final expense premium with 1,200 agents under his leadership. But before the millions, there was a seminary degree, a planted church, a business that crashed in 2008, and one license plate that changed everything.
In this episode, we cover:
Keith's faith-driven upbringing in small-town East North Carolina and his spiritual awakening in high school
His years in ministry — planting what became the largest worshiping congregation in the NC Methodist Conference
Why he walked away from the church he built with $8,000 and a dream
How a stranger's Mercedes with the plate "CLOSER" led him to commission-only sales
Surviving the 2008 financial crash and starting over from scratch
How Keith invented "The In and Up" — the closing technique now used industry-wide
Building a duplicatable system that took average agents to six figures
The "Love Songs" convention that became a turning point for his entire organization
Why agents build businesses but leaders build companies
What Keith wants to be remembered for — and the legacy he's building every single day
Whether you're an entrepreneur, a sales professional, or someone grinding through a dark season wondering if it's worth it — Keith's story is proof that the comma always follows the period.
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All right, welcome back to the drive. Craig Harvey, so excited you have chosen to lean in today. It is an honor to have a gentleman that led an organization that wrote 45 million, 45 million in final expense premium last year, 1,200 agents under his leadership and tutelage. That netted him, in case you're wondering,$3 million,$3.2 million. My great friend, Keith Thomason. All right, let's go. Keith, what is up? Thank you for coming to Bad Santa Rosa. Well, how are you, man? Dude, it's beautiful. I know it.
SPEAKER_01This is gorgeous. I've been telling you, man. I've been telling you. Just standing off and looking over the water on the balcony, the many balconies from your home here.
SPEAKER_00It's gorgeous, man. Well, I thank you for coming, buddy. You've been a, as I said in our intro, bro, a mentor and a leader in my life. I'm excited to chat with you today. I want to go back, though, before the millions. Sure. Uh before really the fame and the notoriety and the and the thousands that you've touched. What was Keith Thomason like in high school? If I asked your parents, if I asked, you know, siblings, who would they tell me Keith was?
SPEAKER_01Maybe this small town guy, East North Carolina, Ronald Graffits, 20,000. Everyone knew everyone, middle class America, working class, family. Um, I was very active in school, sports, band, uh, swimming. Um I fit in. It was a good, it was a great lifestyle.
SPEAKER_00Anybody that would question your athletic ability would have had to have seen what I saw to never again question your athletic ability. You did a gainer, which is which I call it a backflip.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it's like where you tuck your leg off of a 46-foot yacht, dude. 46-foot yacht, you backflipped and landed it.
SPEAKER_01That's my favorite, that's my favorite dive, dude. I I'm 64, and I I guarantee I could do it right now if you're peer. That's crazy, bro. You weren't scared? No. I, you know, I did that as a kid, and if it's your favorite thing, you just do it over and over again.
SPEAKER_00It's one thing to go forwards to go backwards, bro. Yeah, yeah. That's absolutely crazy. So you you told me, you know, as we were talking, you you you played sports, you played football, you played basketball, baseball. Which one were you better at than most?
SPEAKER_01Uh baseball is probably my sport. That's what you say. You know, I love football because it's contact, and I love the contact. But I remember uh after an all-star game in school, I played high school, but uh early on, one of my coaches pulled me to the side and said, I know you love football, Keith, but if you consider baseball, and he would say, Look, you may not be big enough, right? And it it and that's true. That was vertically challenged, but I played because I fill my body into it. But baseball is probably better at baseball.
SPEAKER_00Well, you weren't challenged uh from a heart standpoint or or from a drive standpoint. I I recall in your story uh an awakening of sorts. Yeah. Um, you know, this isn't a spiritual program, but sure. Look, I understand I didn't get here without a nod from God. Yeah. And if i you know, if if anybody thinks that uh, you know, they did, then then then maybe we all need to look in the mirror a little. You looked in the mirror at what 11th grade, and something happened that that changed the trajectory of your life, did it not? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01During those later years in high school, I got a little out of balance. I was a party guy, not I'll admit that. And but I just had a ri uh a religious awakening. Yeah. And it set me on a different course. I became passionate about my faith. I became outspoken. Um in high school. In high school. Wow. Yeah. Led small groups to my home. And upon graduation, I uh I went to O'Rourke University. Really? Took a degree there, not in theology, in business and psychology. And from there, I went to Duke University and uh took a degree in theology and and pastoral counseling, and from there into ministry with the United Methodist Church, West Carolina Conference.
SPEAKER_00It it still blows my mind how many years that that you spent in ministry, uh planning churches, developing people, uh you know, planning sermons. Yeah. I mean, that was your life. And you're what, 27, 28 at the time? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, I didn't finish Duke until I was 27. So I had my first pastorate. I was I was a student pastor while going through seminary. And then after a full-time pastor, had a chance, a privilege to serve under Dr. Landel Watson at first United Methodist Church in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. He was a Yale grad and he and he took an interest in me. Probably I was the first associate pastor. He wasn't able to run off because he was tough. He was tough. But he was a great mentor, and I respected that, and I needed that in my life.
SPEAKER_00You know, one of the things I've always loved about you is you don't half ass anything. I mean, Keith Thomas and his. I'm a whole ass. That's how it's great as a whole ass. That's great. Uh, a whole ass or nothing, not a half-ass. But everything I've ever seen you do, you were all in or you are not in. And it's interesting when I when I hear your story a little, how you you grew the church that to this day is not only not only still functioning, not only still housing members, not only still, you know, taking in converts, yeah uh it the the the legacy and the shadow continues to extend. But it's funny, your success in ministry, and then I guess a rule in the Methodist church is kind of what drove you out. It is.
SPEAKER_01It's not so much of a rule, it's just the pattern, especially back in those days. Well, while I was an associate at first UMC in Rocky Mountain with Landra Watson, I got the nod to be tutored, there's 24 of us across the conference to work with Dr. Ken Callahan. He was a sociologist at Emory University, and he was developing long-range planners, consultants. So I had a chance to work with him for three years, and then we went out across North Carolina and did long-range planning with churches, which led me to have the opportunity to plant a church. And so when I was tapped the plant in the church, Covenant UMC in Greenville, North Carolina. At that point, it was the most successful new church star in the history of the conference. And I'm very proud of that blessing.
SPEAKER_00Bring your mics a little closer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that was a tremendous blessing. Uh, but to this day, it is still the largest worshiping congregation in that conference. And I'm proud of that. I I played a small part in that.
SPEAKER_00I'm proud of that. Look, it's it's it's it's bigger than a small part. And so, you know, there you are. They and I'm a little familiar with with the Methodist church, given my background just a little. And they do move uh ministers or parishioners, whatever they refer to you as around. But when you were asked to to kind of uh relocate, start a new endeavor, it just didn't sit well because you put so much of your heart, your soul, again, no half-ass, your whole ass.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what what what what what transpired?
SPEAKER_01And when you arrive in a town and there's nothing, not even a field, not even a so there's no field of dreams. You arrive and they give you$8,000 and say, go get them, champ. Do it. So I took that$8,000 and parlayed it into a thousand-member church with with with acreage and uh visiting seven days a week. I had visions of retiring from that church. And you're like 28, 29. 100%, man. Well, my heart and soul is in it. And and when they decided that it was time for me to move, I said, no, thank you. I I can't do it anymore. It was in November. Devastating, though. It was in November, a lot of backstory, obviously, but it was it was the end of November, beginning of December, when we had that conversation. I said, you know what? I don't think I want to move. They said, Well, we hate hearing that, Keith. And that was it. I wish at that moment that someone had really reached out and spoke to me, but they would have, they probably would have counseled me, and I probably would have stayed, and I wouldn't be where I am today. So that that sharp turn in the in the road led me someplace.
SPEAKER_00So you go to Oral Roberts University, you study business, you study psychology. You didn't study theology, but you've always been a reader and you've always been uh, you know, someone that that understood people. You know, it's funny, Jesus talked in parables.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, I mean, he related to people in present day based on things that they understood, storytelling. And and you're you're one of the one of the greatest at taking the abstract, making it concrete through real life. When ministry's door closed, I mean, look, it's not a it's it's a period, right? But it turned out to be a great comma because it led you into a little bit of what you studied, I guess. It was business sales. Now you've got to go make money. What is next for Keith Thomason then?
SPEAKER_01I love the way you put that. It wasn't a period. At the time I thought it was a period. It was actually a comma. Uh, and it was devastating. It was probably the most devastating thing in my life up to that point in time because I never failed at anything uh that I would point to a failure. And I definitely never quit anything. But at that moment, it it it crushed my soul, it robbed me of my dream and hope. It was so devastating, it impacted my family in such a raw and real way. It probably led, and it probably did lead to the demise of my first marriage, um, which is a whole another story. But it it was definitely a turning point in my character. One thing that I would say that I didn't say earlier was about a year prior to that, I was in um uh Virginia Beach at a conference with Jack Hayford. And some people may believe this stuff, some people may not, but uh I received a word that said, Up to this point, you have looked to receive from the hands of others. From this day forward, others will look to receive from yours. I had no idea what that meant. Had I known, I probably would have said, no, thank you. Because a year later, I'm out of ministry and I'm thinking, what does this mean? This is 35 years ago, by the way. Oh, yeah, a long time ago. But what happened was when I left ministry, I started looking for jobs, and because I have more degrees than the thermostat, they were telling me you're overqualified. I couldn't get hired. I landed a job as a salesman with Canon Copiers, which by the way, I never sold one. I couldn't even demo the sucker, it's too complicated. But the guy gave me a chance, and uh I worked there for a year, which now I look back, realized it was only to put me in the situation being in Goldsboro, North Carolina on a winter afternoon with no sales under my belt in a convenience store. And when I exited, there was a Mercedes. Mercedes catches your eye. And on the front, there was a tag that read closer. And for some reason it caught my attention. I thought, closer, closer, closer. I, you know, I read license plates. What does that mean? So I'll go back in the store. And there was a guy there vertically challenged, Randy Lanier, my good buddy, lifetime friend. And I said, Man, do us a closer. Wait a minute, wait a minute.
SPEAKER_00Randy Lanier owned the license plate closer in the Mercedes? Yes. I never knew that, bro. The Phoenix.
SPEAKER_01Shut up. He had one of the largest pool businesses in the country. Sold 500 plus pools a year, upwards of a thousand one year. It was all over the country. And I man, he was he was the heyday. And I said, What's the closure? He says, Man, sales. It's a sales. You close the sale. I said, What's that mean? He says, Get into the home and you give up presentation, you close the sale. What do you do for a living? Are you looking for a job? I said, I am. He says, You have a resume? I said, just so happens, I so happens I have one. So I went in my car, pulled the resume out, gave it to me. He says, I'm not hiring today, but if you call me back in February, we could have a conversation. And so I did. I was counting down the days. February came. I called him. We came in for an interview. Interesting story. I've got to tell this story. So we ended the interview, and it's going well. And up to this point in time, I've always had a salary. Always salaried, right? I have a household of children. I had I have a total of six children. At that point, it was uh four and a wife. And I said, Well, so what's the pay? He said, Oh, this is commission. I said, No base, just commission only. He says, Yeah, just a commission only. I said, He said, How much money do you need to make? I said, I need to make$52,000 a year. I knew what I need to make. I need to make$52,000 a year. He said, if you do exactly what I tell you, you will earn that this summer. Well. I remember I thought for a moment and I leaned up on his desk with my hands on it. I looked at him and said, if you're like me, I'm gonna burn your damn house down. I didn't smile because I was serious as hell. And he smiled and I made$85,000 that summer and is off to the races.
SPEAKER_00Holy shit. And the so I three months. First of all, you know, for those of you are viewing audience, I know Randy well. God rest his soul. He he is uh he is a part of the departed uh long before uh his time. Yeah. Uh but a great friend of mine, I never knew that he introduced you to commission only sales, selling swimming pools. Now he sold the above-ground pools, but eventually you got into the the the below ground pools. That's right. Look, look, when you got a pool in your backyard, above ground means you know you're doing good. But if you can if you can get that, if you can get that some bitch into ground, right? You're doing you do a lot better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's to sell an above-ground pool for$15,000. You gotta be good. You gotta be good. And you gotta be good. But after three years, I wanted more. I wanted a piece of the action. And so he had convinced me, get your contractor's license in Virginia, I'll cut you in. Well, I got I did my part. He didn't do his, and so we parted ways. So I started on Sunday Swim, and then we did in grounds, we did above grounds, residential, commercial, you know, it's high-end stuff. Yeah, and we were very successful for a decade and a half. My wife and I did really well, Greta, uh, which was definitely more than a side apart. She was she was a force to reckon with. Uh, she was just did a great, great job. I'm so proud of her. And we we we had a good life. Um two and a half mil a year uh in sales, which netted me a comfortable 250, 300,000 East North Carolina. That was great. I thought I had arrived. And then in 08 and 09, dude, the economy tanked, man, crashed. And I like millions lost everything.
SPEAKER_00How many, how many people do you think in our sphere of influence, in our circle, met because of 08 and because of 09? You know what I've learned, and you know this winners find a way.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Doors are gonna shut, but winners are always looking for that next open door, always looking for that next like like strategic relationship that can kind of help you get to to places that you want to go. And what's so freaking funny, it's very similar, dude. My my story, looking in the mirror, 2008, you know, things changed, and I had to go get, you know, they say a real job. Yeah. And I I go into insurance, and I'll be damned if uh you didn't do the same thing. Same thing. You know what's so interesting?
SPEAKER_01When I first got my license, uh, I we'd been broke for so long. We lost everything. If I couldn't sell it, the bank repoed it. We lost it. I had to sell my Harley Davidson. Dude, when a man sells his Harley, it's bad. It's a bad day. You you're you're you're broke. I tried to sell a kid, nobody would take it, so I had to sell the Harley. But we we survived. But I got my license, and I remember I was up at 5, 5:30 in the morning. I was dressed, ready to go to work. I couldn't go to work yet because I couldn't wait in the senior stuff. But I was knocking on their door at seven o'clock in the morning, dude. I was waking at seven o'clock in the morning, and they would come in the bathrobe and say, Yeah, who is this? I come back later. I was just hungry. Sure. When you've got mouse the feed at the house, uh, it's about the money, and that's what it was about for me. I wanted to go get that money. Uh but that that's that's the point, man.
SPEAKER_00What when you when you've you gotta fall forward. Sure. It's funny, you know, looking at what you did for so many years. Ministry, you know, my dad was a pastor. And so when you look at the the insurance profession, you are you're really doing three things. You're delivering a sermon, yep, uh, presentation, you are uh you were delivering an altar call, which is a call to action, and then you're taking a freaking offering at the very end. Am I right? And so look, you had been prepped for that in in your previous life. Do you remember how we first met? Um another company. Another company.
SPEAKER_01And uh you were you were top dog. I was just starting, and man, uh you were confident, you were full of of vinegar and of a few other things, and and and I admired you. I said, This guy's successful. I leaned in, I listened. You may not think so, but um, my goal was I'm gonna be as big as that guy.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I yeah, look, I remember those days, and and you know, uh what was that great book saying, you know, do not despise the days of small beginnings. I can still hear my father or you know, grandmother saying that. But dude, the thing I remember about you was um it was a a small pond with small fish that didn't know there was an ocean out there, right? Or that you could be a shark because of of the the way that that uh the the the the way that that organization was run. They didn't allow you to dream and and and everything was told to you as uh you know negative and and anything outside of of their sphere of influence was just leading to financial tragedy. And you spoke, you you got up and delivered you didn't even have a mic in your hand. Remember? I mean you you spoke audibly. There's there's a hundred and something people in the room. But dude, when you talk, the hair on the back of my neck stood up. I said, that that some bitch has something. And I'd never forget, I said to myself, I said, if I ever got a chance to work with, I don't even know your name, a gentleman like that. I I know that that that look, if some is good, more is better. Yeah. And if you want to build an army, you you've got to build it of like-minded, of, of unified, of individuals that are speaking the same language, go in the same direction. And I'll be damned if I didn't get let go by that organization. I I write about it in the book, The Best Worst Day of My Life. Um, start North American Senior Benefits in 2012 with my business partner, Chad Milner. And I get a phone call from the great Jordan Smith that Keith Thomason might be attending an opportunity meeting, which we went all over the United States, showing up in hotels. Greensboro, North Carolina. We were in Greensboro that night. And when Jordan said you might be coming, okay, I was excited and scared shitless because I'm like, gosh, I just knew the greatness. Like you, you were the first person that I had to talk in front of that I knew had the ability to help us get to where we wanted to go. And so, man, if I ever prayed and studied and, you know, tried to show up with my fastball, it was that night. And dude, you were there. You were there.
SPEAKER_01You know, tragedy uh can become triumph if you're looking for it. But I remember that night. I I was anticipating this. We were a union. I think Jordan led you to believe that I was apprehensive because of you. And it was the exact opposite. I didn't know you that I just I knew of you, but we we had no connection with you. No connection. I just knew that you were successful and and I respected that. So I was looking for it. I was hoping it was the right fit. It's interesting you say that because at that point in time I was still rebuilding. You know, we had been busted down from a comfortable lifestyle. That company was the only company ever in my life that could hold me under six figures, but they were able to do that. That company built a system that was good for a few, but not good for many. And I was looking for an opportunity that was good for many. And by many, I mean me.
SPEAKER_00Well, dude, you you've heard me say for years, worse than joining a great company and failing is joining a shady company and doing really well. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And and you know, that that uh it all worked out in the end, but the one thing that taught me, Keith, that that that that traumatic, tragic, terrifying opportunity uh out of Vero Beach was I don't want to lead like him. Yeah. If if getting rich means doing the things that he did, then you know what? Yeah, money's not all that it's cracked up to be. And what what I knew was there was a way to be rich and keep your reputation.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00There was a way to to you know not just eat fillet every night, but build a platform to where there could be others at the table paying their own meal, okay, eating fillet with you. And so one of the biggest things when we first started our company was doing it the right way. 100%.
SPEAKER_01I was listening to um the Oracle of Omaha's granddaughter uh on YouTube uh just recently. And she said her grandfather taught her three things to be looking for when you're partnering with people. One, you gotta they gotta be enthusiastic, right? Two, they gotta be intelligent, but three, they have to have integrity. And if they lack the third, the first two are misdirected. Yeah, they don't really matter. That's what we're talking about. You want to be a part of a company. Yes, you're surrender with enthusiastic people, intelligent people, but they have integrity on the end. If it's not good for them, it can't be good for me. It's gotta be good for me, good for them. It's a win-win. And that's what's made NASBEA so unique.
SPEAKER_00Well, what's also made us successful are men like you. And you brought an army with you. Uh, you you brought your your beautiful, lovely wife, my great friend, shout out uh to Greta B. Don't make me tell you what the B stands for. That's right. And I love that about her. Uh, and and and so many others, just just your sons, and as you mentioned, the six kids. What I want to get into is is the way you grew your organization. Yeah. Because within North American Senior Benefits is Plan Right. Sure. I mean, dude, 45 million last year is an insane number. I I want to I want to get into the way you scaled that, the way that you authored the the growth, the way you sidestepped some landmines, some of the red flags that you saw, because I guarantee them to you, there's a young entrepreneur out there that would love to follow in the footsteps that that that you have laid, whether they know it or not. So I always like to ask the question when did you pop? Like when did the kernel pop? When was it like, all right, you know what? NESB is for me. This this is gonna work. And then when did you start to really get momentum towards building plan right? Yeah. So the previous company I learned to sell because
SPEAKER_01I mean, we had three policies and the only difference was the price. And you know, you remember they paid you, well, I'm not going there, but I learned to sell because you didn't do a lot of presentations. Understood. And it wasn't really duplicatable. So when I came to Nasdaq, I realized it needed to be duplicatable. And I was hiring my butt off, but I was losing them as quick as I was hiring them because when they couldn't present. So I put pen to paper and put together a simple duplicatable presentation. Because I realized early on you're not going to make millions with just Eagles. You've got to give the average people over six figures. If you can because most people are average, right? There's like one Queen Bee to a high.
SPEAKER_00We're talking like let's say first-round draft picks. When you're building any team, it's not going to be built completely and totally unless you keep losing every year and keep, you know, position player. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So you you build it up with position players. Well, those guys can't duplicate my personality, my charisma, and my conviction, but they can duplicate a presentation's point and talk. And that's what it is. So I put pen to paper, put together a duplicatable presentation, and that solved one big problem. Now they could present. But then I discovered they couldn't, they couldn't sell. So then I said, you know, I need to help them sell. I know they can't sell, but I can sell. So if I can just get them in the house, which I had taught them to do, give a presentation, and at a certain place in the presentation use these magical words. Mrs. Smith, I have a pretty good idea of how I may be able to help you. I'm going to call a specialist, run it past them. Two heads are better than one. Waddle speaker. The in and up. I later named it the in and up. And people know it by the in and up now. And that was the difference, man. Because now I can make him sell. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Keith.
SPEAKER_00I I are you okay. Is it your testimony today, sir, that Keith Thomason invented step six, the in and up of our presentation? You invented it? That came from you.
SPEAKER_01Uh uh. Car dealers have been doing it for years. I think the big key is I labeled it. I never knew that. Again, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Look, with all the study I do for these things, I never knew you invented Keith Thomason, the author of the in and up.
SPEAKER_01It's the it's the secret sauce. Well, one, it takes an enormous amount of commitment. You're at the dinner with your family. It's seven o'clock. True. The kids are eating. You got to be available. You got to answer the phone. But I really I wanted it for them as much as myself because once I made enough money to cover my bills, I didn't forget where I'd come from. And these guys are trying to pay their car payment, their rent, their mortgage, put shoes in their kids' feet. So I'm taking that call. But the beautiful thing is this when they do that, Greg, you can, you're in, they're in your pocket. And it's real time. Yeah. So I'm helping them understand our carriers and how to position the product. I'm helping them understand the competition, the underbelly, if you will, the weaknesses. And I'm able to overcome objections or as I refer to them as clarifying questions. So now you're truly mentoring them, real time, real space, real people. Now it's not theory, it's practice. And that's the key. And then you put money in their pocket, forget about it. If they're making money, they're going to stay with you.
SPEAKER_00So the present and close. I was recently at your convention in Raleigh, and you you you have 1,200 writers. It's interesting because you had 1,700 uh in the auditorium uh for that two-day event of which I was I was honored to be able to come and uh be a part of. And dude, just the energy, just the electricity, the youth, the the the the the unmitigated belief that that your team has. And look, it it exudes and it resides, and the originator of that is you. And dude, I'm just I'm I'm so damn proud of Well, you dump out that I was the oldest guy in the room. I was. But you don't act like it, dude. You got the energy of a 30-year-old, bro.
SPEAKER_01So what about popping? The second, one of the second insights I had early on was this. I you you attract what you are. But in my case, I cannot attract a bunch of men my age. When I started this business, I thought I was average, Craig. What final expense will teach you is who you really are. I thought I was just average Joe. When I got in this business, I realized I wasn't average. Now that's not being braggadocious, that's just being self-aware. Sure. So I knew I needed to attract young men and young women. So I set out to do that. And that room is full of young people. And, you know, Tony Robins reminded me that you learn best in a heightened state. So then you got to infuse that group with energy and excitement. They're on edge, they're emotionally, the mind's popping, and they're absorbing it. You're just expanding the expunged so they can absorb more.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, a lot of times what most of us need is someone to believe in us. We've got enough haters, enough people telling us we can't, enough people, you know, listing the reasons as to economically, mathematically, logistically why we couldn't. But bro, to have that mentor, to have that, that, that individual that sees in us sometimes what we don't see in ourselves, it, dude, it's invaluable. It's a springboard. I I want to ask you about some of the conferences because, Lord, we've been together 13 years now. Was there a key convention? Was there a key meeting? Was there a key event that we had that that that really kind of launched your business?
SPEAKER_01That's a great question because we've had so many awesome conventions. I'm gonna have to tip my hat to you. You're very creative in that area, but there was one that stands out above all the rest, love songs. Because when you when you said it's gonna be love songs, I thought to myself, what the H does that have to do with sales? And it became magical, dude.
SPEAKER_00Leading up to that, well, I'm gonna give some context there because every time you hear a song, yeah, if you take out the word love and put sales, yep, and you could just you know take that and go wherever you'd like with any love song. I would do anything for sales, but it won't do that. That's not bad, by the way. That's not bad. Okay, little meatloaf in the house. You know, you know, you know, whatever. Pick it. I'm not gonna, you know, rule, I'm not gonna make our viewers log off because of my shitty voice, but it was it was a great idea to hopefully capture the attention of the mind, playing the song and then doing the session. I did not know you would say that one.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, people sang. I thought it was it was it was so unique, it caught you off guard, but it really was a pivotal change. It cast a vision. Uh a few months prior to that, I had burnt the bridge, driving down a lonely road from Suffolk, Virginia back to Rona Kramps, North Carolina, uh pounding the steering wheel, yelling at the dark, yelling at the darkness, just angry as 40 H's, because it wasn't clicking fast enough. It just wasn't. I was doing everything I possibly could do, but it wasn't enough. And I came to the realization that I can't have a plan B. If people have a plan B, they will always take it. You know, parents teach their kids, unfortunately, all the time. Now, that sounds good, son, but you need a backup plan. That is the worst advice you can give a person because they're going to take it. It prevents them from pushing through. So I just said, look, this opportunity, I may never make it, but it's possible. So this is all yeah, whatever it takes, it gave me the fortitude to persevere anything imaginable. And love songs was the exclamation point for that decision.
SPEAKER_00I'm glad we went with that one that year. I'm so glad we went with that that year. But again, we're doing, you know, one, two, two conventions a year trying to create momentum, create belief. But at the same time, belief without sustained behavior won't create the habits that generate results. And so what we would do, and you know this, is there was an energy, there was a belief that was birthed from that event, right? But then you take that, you apply it to changing your vocabulary, to changing your habits, uh to changing your mindset, which ultimately creates the results that you wanted to begin with. Dude, you you are uh you were an electrifying human being. You just are. Anyone that's ever been around you. I've never seen you in a bad mood. I've never you ever been depressed? Outside of maybe going through the situation with the church?
SPEAKER_01Two major events in my life knocked me down. I'm not gonna say I was depressed. I'm gonna say that I was I was melancholy. It was a tough time. Dark, dark season, dark, dark season, but they were transitional seasons. What I realized now is those seasons were a requisite to my success. It had to happen. Oh man, it it worked for me. The church situation and then losing my business. I can remember lying in bed. I feel like you had the flu because stress was so real, but it led me to break through, and of course, it created this. So I don't begrudge it. I believe everything in life works for you, not against you. Sure. If you're receptive to it.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny, bro. I was I was just talking to a great friend of mine who's going through a tough time right now, going through a dark season. And you know, it it it sounds so cool, right, to read the book or to watch the movie when somebody else has to go through the shit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. But like when you're going through it yourself, it is so difficult. Oh, it feels like it's gonna be forever. It does. To have the binoculars, you know. I talk about, you know, foresight being what you'll see, insight being what you're dealing with, hindsight being what you what you've just dealt with, and you can look back. I mean, hindsight's easy. It really is. Even insight at times to be like, here's romantic, but to have that foresight to look into a place that you're not at and say something good is gonna come from this, I've often said you can't keep doing the right things and get wrong results. You just you just can't. Now, sometimes your vehicle needs to change, sometimes your methodology needs to change, right? But inevitably, what is sowed is is uh is is reaped. Let me ask you about because dude, you've got so many superpowers. If I were to ask you what your ultimate superpower, your your your mega superpower would be, what would you say?
SPEAKER_01You know that's a tough question because I don't see myself having a superpower. But I guess my superpower is probably my weakness. It's probably something that most physicians will prescribe a medication for. I mean, and and parents are putting their kids on medication. They have ADHD, uh, they they're OCD. Dude, I'm both. I'm obsessive, compulsive, and you know, I've got 14 things going at all all times, right? Because I can't stay focused on but I think that is probably my superpower. What people see my weakness, because I've got balls spinning everywhere and I can keep them straight in my head. And that keeps me fired up. I will say that's I I'm a pit bull once I latch on to it. I don't let go to light and strikes. You know, I I don't think I've ever quit anything. I've been I've been I've been fired, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Uh but but dude, I first I've seen your 1099s.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've traveled with you. When you and I traveled, we traveled a month at a time. Yeah. We spent one month in Asia together. We spent 27 days in Italy together, all over the country. We're going to Korea together later on this year. I mean, you married my wife, and I mean, I I I dude, you're I don't have many mentors. You are one. Uh, and I don't use that term at all. And I've just used it here. Um, I I would also say, Keith, your superpower is positivity. I mean, you are one of the most positive some bitches I have ever met. In a world when people can find negative in anything, yeah, when they can they can find the manure, right? In in any garden of flowers, right? You you are the most hyper positive dude, as hyper positive a dude as I've ever met. And it's been an inspiration to me. I want to get into this book. You know, I wrote this uh go into that point. Man, when you just said that, that brought something home to me.
SPEAKER_01You know, your parents really impact you. I mean, I had a great dad, super dad. He worked on the railroad, he built uh tracks from the main line to the industry, and I worked him on weekends and in the summer. And I remember he was so optimistic and positive and all in the mornings, he would say, Son, this is what we're going to do today. His his cohort would say, I don't know if we can do that or not. And he would just smile. But every day there was a plan and we would work to execution. And it was always positive. And oftentimes I said, You know, what did I inherit from my dad? What what was my what was the legacy? I've got so many valuable things, but when you said that, dude, if there's anything my dad gave me, it was positive that I've I'm a mindset too. I'd never heard my dad say anything negative. It was always, you can.
SPEAKER_00Dude. That's in my inheritance. That's huge, brother. Well, and and you know, I think the fact that uh you are impacting so many young men and women's, not just inheritance, but you think about man, the number of just people that that we've been able to be a part of's journey that never made a hundred grand, that never made a million dollars, that that that never and look, money, money makes you more what you are. We we've talked about that a lot. I want to get into this book because I I know it's it's helped you and I both. Uh, and uh I I have no problem saying that a lot of the ideas, the concepts, the realities, I learned from men like yourself. And as I've said, God gave you eyes to plagiarize. It's just it's just a fact. But when I wrote driven, I was going through a divorce and it was a place to hide, it was a place to to kind of express some things that I thought needed to be said. I had no idea it was going to be as damn good as it was. I credit the great Gary Smalley. He said there's five love languages that uh men and women have, which means you can love the right person the wrong way. And I thought, wow, if you can love the right person the wrong way, you can lead the right person the wrong way. In other words, if I'm committed to this individual and I'm telling them how beautiful they are and how lovely they are, and it's words of affirmation, but what they really want is quality time. And I'm like, why isn't she loving me back? Because what she speaks is time. I'm I'm verbally telling her how great she is. So we're missing like ships in the night. Yeah. It's the same way a leadership. You can have someone that could have been great, would have been great, should have been great, but because of your lack of understanding, the language they speak, be it rivalry, be it revenge, be it recognition, be it relevance. All of us speak revenue.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which R spoke to you the most? But besides revenue, because if you're not making money, you're gonna go somewhere else. Which R drove you? Isn't that the key to being a great coach?
SPEAKER_01Being able to know, identify? Just for a moment. It's a great book. If you haven't read that book, you've got to pick the book up. I mean, it's readable, but what what I think it does, it allows a person to identify themselves. I meet so many people, they don't know what their motivated is, what motivates them, what's their driving force. It gives them language because once you can label it and name it, now you can develop it and use it to your strength. Second, coaches, mentors, if you're trying to help people, you gotta know who you're dealing with. That's right. If they don't know, you get them to read it and you read it. Now you're speaking the same language, the Tower of Babel. You can build anything, right? Same language, now you can get to work. But early on, it was the money, the revenue, had to have it, had six children, a wife, and I want to take care of them. And I was gonna get that money if I had to choke you out. Uh so I it was all about the money. But once you get your stuff covered, then it's not if you're not careful, you you take your foot off the gas. So it's not about you. Then I remembered there are other people that were experiencing the same challenges I was. So good. So um I wanted to be I want to be relevant. I want to be relevant.
SPEAKER_00That's you know, you know, eventually I've often said once you've once you've mastered a craft, I don't care what it is, it's scale. Yeah. And instead of only getting paid for what you do, there comes a point you get paid for what you know. And what an amazing ability to be able to impart to others, right? To to be able to feel that sense of gratification. And look, a fair exchange is no robbery, okay? Lawyers always charge for time. I don't know any any lawyer that's ever been like, hey, here's here's free time. This is my knowledge, and just because I like, no, stop it. And so when when when you're imparting to others, and dude, you got to think about the the the the thousands of young men and women that the Keith Thomason name will will live in, when I say in infamy, I mean, dude, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not embellishing that because without your leadership, without your coaching, without your development of their skills, dude, who freaking knows where they'd be. So that that's got to mean a lot to you.
SPEAKER_01This is my philosophy. When I'm hiring a person, I'm committing to them and I'm helping coach them. I do not think I'm just simply affecting that one person. Because the truth is this you affect one adult, you affect their family and their children. Look, the first words your child will speak will not be the ones you teach them. It is caught, not taught. You can sit in front of them, dad, dad, dad, dad, that won't be the first word. It's probably gonna be more like shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. You know what I mean? The words you don't want them to pick up. So this business is the same. So if you can help grow a person forward in their character, their skill set, their disciplines, or their routines that leads to success, you're gonna positively affect their children. Though their children will embrace those characteristics and qualities and affect the next generation. That has been profound for me. Long-term view, uh, you may or may not believe in eternal life, but I tell you what, there is eternal values. And if you impart them properly, then you are shaping generations. And that's what I think we're doing legitimately. I really do. Now, one of the ways I did that, though, was through rivalry. Now, I've never been antagonistic towards a person. My rival wasn't a person I hated. I didn't want to speak ill of them, but they had a target on their back. I'm thinking of one guy in particular to help pull me forward. He was ahead of me in the business, doing much better than I was, had more skill, more knowledge at that point in time. And when he identified him, he didn't know I was competing against him. He didn't know, but I knew. You knew. Oh, I will look at the paperwork, I'd listen to him, he'd start speaking, I'd listen in, lean in, and I would call him or text him, and I would say, dude, you're crushing it. You're crushing it. And then when I caught him and then passed him, he was in a review mirror, I'd call him and say, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. That was my way of saying. Listen. And I was off to the next one. And I got a few I'm chasing down right now. The old man's not done yet.
SPEAKER_00Dude, when you stop, in my opinion, that that that competitive spirit of seeing something that somebody else has that you want, that you're willing to fight for, you're willing to get up early, stay up late. That's on your vision board, that's a part of your just just soul plan, so to speak. Bro, that's what living is. It is. That's I mean, you know, to me, it's a race, Craig. Mr. Race. Damn right. So let's talk about that. When you made partner, you rang that bell. That had to be huge. Keith, it's a it's a difficult journey. But again, nobody that that's ever hit partner at NASBY hasn't been a seven-figure earner and past. I mean, here you are making good lord, three, you know, you may hit four million in earnings this year. Incredible. Incredible. I mean, think about that, dude. That's football player money. Baseball player money, bro.
SPEAKER_01It was is beyond my comprehension. I never thought. I remember when I came to this business, I was just trying to get back to 250. I'd reached 250.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I remember you bought a$65,000 watch. I'm saying this on camera. You bought a$65,000 watch where in Italy. Yeah. And you tried to get me to buy one. Yeah. I I had said no based on the clothes that I'd bought there. But dude, you earned it. You earned it. And again, it's not all about the money.
SPEAKER_01It's surreal, Craig. It's not about the it's not all about the money. The money makes you more what you are, but but it's surreal when you think about it.
SPEAKER_00You walked into the city. I think it's about the money until you make it.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Does that make sense? Like, like it's about the money until I've, you know, now that you have something that you've worked for, that you've strived for, that you've sacrificed for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Then once it's okay, well, you know, it was great for that. Now what? Yeah. And that's where you talked about the relevance and and and being able to help others get to where you're at.
SPEAKER_01That's so key. And you and you man. It's it's just surreal to realize you walked into a place and it's not no credit. You see something, it's just it's just a cool experience. Remember layaway? Did you ever do layaways a kid? Oh god, layaway, credit. You know. Remember this?
SPEAKER_00Kmart used to have layaway. You remember those days? My parents used to put shit on layaway for Christmas. Blue Light Special. That's right. Not anymore.
SPEAKER_01But you know, that's how most Americans live. And I tell you, the Americ, I tell people every twice a week on Mondays and Thursdays, I have a Zoom call for potential new hires. We don't recruit. Plan right, we don't recruit. We hire. We're looking for a select group of people that are legitimately hungry and are willing to grow. See, change is inevitable, growth is a decision, and you have to discern the people that are legitimately prepared to grow. That's what I'm looking for. So I remind them on a weekly basis that the American dream is still real. It's alive and well. It's just that most Americans don't look in the right direction. Is the view because they're relegate, they're they're relegating their future to people who don't have the same goals rather than rely on yourself.
SPEAKER_00Two questions. I want to talk about failure because we we people say a lot, and I say on this podcast, look, you know, you win or you learn. Yeah. When when you have a certain skill set and you have won before, yeah, you you don't really celebrate wins. Correct. And when you win, you high five, you party, you go buy something, you know, there's a celebration. But it's only when you really do lose that you become vulnerable enough. Like Nick Saban used to say he loved when Alabama would lose. I'm sure the boosters didn't like that. Fan base, I'm sure, hated it. But what he meant, I think, is that that was when the team would stop smelling their own flowers. That's right. Would would would stop, you know, he would say eating the rat poison, okay, uh, of of self-hype and and really look at the things that could make them better. So I'm just curious, do do do you recall a loss that really taught you something? That once that loss happened, you made a mental pivot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I've I've referenced the two of the church is one, the business was a second one. Those those two forced me to grow. Because I realized that I wasn't enough. To get to where I wanted to be, that's hard to say. To get to the next level, I am currently like you can do it alone. I'm not enough. Yeah. I mean, to have more, you must be more. You said all the time, people stop following you when they stop learning from you. So you got to constantly learn. To have more, you got to be more. And to be more, you got to learn more, grow more. Uh, so it was though those two were major pivotal moments. And then there's been a myriad of others. I remember I got stagnant. Dude, I plateaued hardcore, me full on stop about three or four years ago. And I thought, what is going on? I was so pissed at that time in my life. I was angry. Matter of fact, Greta says, Why are you so angry? I said, Because I'm giving it all I have and it's not enough. And and then I realized agents build businesses, leaders build companies. So I pivoted. I doubled down on personal development, study, reading, and focused on developing leaders. People because leaders are gonna build it.
SPEAKER_00Keith, you've heard me say this, but if you want to grow, okay, then you you hire followers. If you want to multiply, you hire leaders. But you've got to become who it is that you want to hire because they're all they're only going to follow who it is that they think can take them to a place that that they're not at.
SPEAKER_01Interesting you say that, Craig, because I think that's probably one of the biggest sticking points. You want to uh an identifiable plateau in people building companies is that point. Most people, charismatic, strong-willed individuals, they're great at leading followers. It's hard to lead a leader. When I hire people, I realize the three different groups. I call maybe a C group. Number one is people who've had enormous success in other ventures and come to you with confidence and just creativity, and they're determined. They're hard to lead because until they exhaust their their eight abilities and their current resources, they're not willing to learn. The second are the B players. The B's, they they're just a blank sheet of paper. They don't have a lot of baggage, not a lot of success. They're open book. You tell them what to do and they go do it. Oh, they're great to hire. So easy, right? You just give them the X's and the O's and they go do it. The third are the people that come to you and they need it. Oh, they're the hard ones. They have a litany of issues. They, they're their suitcase is full. You know, in addiction, there's a term called five miles in, five miles out. Well, they're there and they're the C. Now you can get them to a B, but probably never to A. You're going to build your business with B's. You're going to build a company with the A's. And the A's are hard to lead. You've got to really earn that respect.
SPEAKER_00Leading leaders, it's more difficult. It's it's uh it's it's it's a rubber stuff. I know I gave you headaches. Oh, hell yeah.
SPEAKER_01Those times sometimes like, Keith, why are you so freaking hard-headed? I was that A guy.
SPEAKER_00It's the greats. It's the greats that that are looking for greats. And again, I think when I when I say I don't necessarily mean staying one step ahead, yeah. But always showing up with something to say. Yeah. And and and the right mindset in saying it. Let's let's talk. You and I are getting older. Uh obviously you're a lot older than me. Um, but what would you go back and tell your former self? I mean, if you go back and talk to 30-year-old Keith, what would you say? What advice would you give 35-year-old Keith Thomason? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Tough times never last but tough people do. There was a book that was entitled. I wish I could tell you the author right now, but you need to pick it up. Google that book to get it. Tough times never last but tough people do. I would say that to myself. In fact, I believe it was Robert Schuller that wrote that book. Um, second thing I would tell myself is this everything that you're going through right now that's difficult and tough, is simply building the character you need for when you become who you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00What are you afraid of?
SPEAKER_01Failure. I mean, that's just off the top of my head, I didn't have time to think about that, but failure. I do not want to fail. So that gets me up. I'm pulled forward. When I first started the business, I was running from failure. I was broke, I was in debt, I had responsibilities, and I just had to do it to get the money. That lasts for so long. Once you reach success and your needs are met, you've got to have something bigger. You gotta have a cause, a just cause, and you and you're pulled. But there's never a day that I don't run from failure. I I I well, you put it this way if you've ever been hungry, never be full. You can never be full. And dude, I never want to go back to where I was.
SPEAKER_00What uh what what do you want to be remembered for? Because look, dude, yeah, this isn't eternal. I mean, yeah, you know, you pray it is, but you know, I turned 50, I don't want to look at but I you know I think about the mortality of all right, you know, one day uh I'm um uh things are going to change. Yeah, you know, mother nature, father time, right? Both undefeated when it's all said and done. What do you, Keith Thomason, want to be remembered for? You know, I I think about that every single day.
SPEAKER_01It's as corny as and cliche as it may sound. There's not a day, and I mean that hand to God, that I don't wake up and ask myself that question. And it's um, it's a legacy, it's relevance, it's legacy. I want to be remembered as a person who believed in you more than you believe in yourself at times. I will be remembered as the person who coached and mentored you to the next level and positively changed your life and your character. If I could imprint a person, that is the richest reward I can have. And I work hard every day. I don't work for the money anymore. Don't get me wrong, it's the game now, right? It's the game. So I don't want to be that guy. Oh, you know, it's not yes, I like the money, but that's not what drives me now. What drives me now is helping you make the money. And when you hit six figures, dude, I celebrate probably as much, if not more, than you do. Because I realized that is so freaking awesome.
SPEAKER_00Keith, what uh what one of my superpowers has has been to have the foresight to see a little bit, just sometimes as a glimpse, by the way, sometimes you you're praying that you see what it is that you see glimpses of. You're you're hoping that that it's everything that that you believe that it could be. But dude, at 60-ish years young, yourself, who who good god outworks most 50-year-olds that I know. Um, if if I dude, if I was in my late 40s, early 50s, and wanted to follow in the footsteps of someone that legitimately, guys, earning 3.2 million last year. You're going to approach 4 million your money this year. Sorry. You're it's crazy, but you've been able to develop it. You you've been able to help so many come behind you. And I think you've got seven, I think, millionaires, eight millionaires within your organization that you're running the plan right system, a part of the NASBY family. Yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable. So, just real quick, if you had that billboard that you could you could, you know, be able to share your message with someone that that's looking to take the next step, that that's looking to take a risk on themselves. What would that billboard say? What would you say to somebody that's like, dude, life can't be all this? Is there something more? Your answer to that question would be what? Wow.
SPEAKER_01Um it it if you're plateaued, I can help you off of it. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for I'm looking for a few people. I'm open, the mentor and coach. They've done a pretty good job, but they know they're having a hard time getting to the next level. I know how to get to the next level. I've been the audition guy. I was a great audition guy, but I've learned to be the multiplying guy. And that's what I do today. I help leaders get to the next level. And that's fulfilling. I can't work with everybody, you know, you can only handle so many, but but I am open to for to a few.
SPEAKER_00Did you like the drive? Did you like the ride? God, I did. Uh it's not a straight line, is it? It's twists and turns and bumpy roads and potholes at times. We heard a few that uh this gentleman overcame. If you liked it, can you thumbs up us? Can you share it with somebody? Tell a friend. Uh you never know it might change their life. We will see you next time on the drive. Thank you for showing up.