Ep 13: The Closers Mentality: With John Rocker

One of baseball's most dominant closers sits down with Craig Harvey for a real, unfiltered conversation about what it actually takes to win.

John Rocker, the fireballing lefty who terrorized lineups with a 100 mph fastball and a filthy slider, opens up about the preparation, obsession, and mental battles that defined his career with the Atlanta Braves. From growing up in Gwinnett County and turning down the University of Georgia to go pro, to going toe to toe with Barry Bonds, Jeff Bagwell, and Manny Ramirez, Rocker breaks down the chess match closers play every single time they take the mound.

But this conversation goes way beyond baseball.

Craig and John dig into the parallels between pitching and business. How the O-2 count mindset applies to anyone on a hot streak. Why falling behind 2-0 demands real strategic thinking over emotion. And how the mental shift from pitching NOT to fail versus pitching TO WIN can change everything about where you end up.

John gets honest about years of grinding in the minors, calculating his ERA mid-delivery on the mound, secretly hoping the 1994 strike would give him an excuse to quit, and the one night in Jacksonville, Florida that completely rewired how he competed. That night led him to the big leagues, the World Series, and 91 career saves.

This episode is about accountability, preparation, grit, and what closing really means in baseball and in life.

In this episode you'll hear about how John got drafted in the 17th round despite elite talent and why he let it happen, what the O-2 count teaches us about attacking when things are going your way, the danger of playing it safe when you should be pressing, why Andrew Jones barely made the Hall of Fame despite having once in a generation ability, how Rocker studied hitters and sequenced pitches in real time, the minor league low point that eventually led to his breakthrough, how NLP and reframing failure changed his entire career, and why your best years might still be ahead of you even when it doesn't feel like it.

Subscribe for Part 2 where Craig and John go even deeper into mental mechanics, visualization, and what elite performers do differently when the stakes are highest.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, welcome back to the drive. Craig Harvey here. So excited because today I have someone that is really a hero of mine, someone that is a legend in an industry, and I would say in a sport that a lot of us are familiar with. He's a closer. Guess what? Those of us that are in business and sales, we know about closing. So does this guy, one of the greatest closers of all time, John Rocker, today on the drive. All right, here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, are you ready? I'm so pumped. Listen, I don't get nervous for a lot of things, okay? But I gotta tell you, I had some butterflies. John, I had some butterflies when I was able to schedule the great John Rocker to come on the drive. Stud, how you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I'm good. Uh can we produce over here? Uh the I need a towel to wipe off the spit from my ass for you and kissing it. Really guy. Really? Listen. That's that's that's that's a little verbose.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Hey, if I was 6'5, a lefty, that had to be then you'd be the name John Rocker? 91 saves. I heard it was 88.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

You said they they they they they jit me in the playoffs.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

None of my playoff stats, man. It's just 91. I mean, does this does Mariana's is his 600 is including playoff saves? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Well, I'm gonna research that. We're gonna have our team go on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Do you have my playoff saves, man? Those are those are the toughest ones of the year by far.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I will say, one of my favorite pitchers of all time. Uh you're one year older than me. You look several years older than me, John. What's up with you? Really? Did you think that? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

We uh we we keep my makeup on though, so I think maybe I look a little bit younger than you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Looking good. You're looking good. So we met on the golf. Tell our viewing audience how we met.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

No, met um Burt Pine. Yeah. Yeah, Burt Pine uh, what, three, four years ago, right? Many times I whip your ass on the golf course, John. Tell the truth. Well, I mean, you you don't do shit for a living, uh, correct? I don't I don't I don't that's that's why I talked to your your uh yeah your personal assistant. I'm like, why does it have a job? So why does he need a personal assistant? That that's confusing to me. So yeah, well, when you play five days a week, and uh I've got a busted knee and a bad back, and I just want a golf club almost a year now.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

You do drive a lot of greens, it's the short game stud. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

I don't I don't practice enough. So my problem is my my my vanity, I think. Um I love being in the gym. I'm in the gym five, six days a week. So it's either you don't you don't want to you know have an hour and a half, hour and forty minute overbody workout, and then let's go play golf. You can barely lift your arms by the time you leave it.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I see you in the gym often. You you see me. By the way, is this is this shirt too tight for my arms? Am I good with this?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

That's that's hell with working out? Yeah, just wear tighter shirts. Wear tighter shirts, get a tan.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

There you go. There you go. I want to go back to the beginning with you, John, because look, you you you have a comedic flair about yourself. You've always been able to bring levity. You are bring levity to any situation. But at the end of the day, you were a damn good closer. And that's accurate. And again, 91 saves. We're gonna get into later on, only 24 blown saves and what that means. Now, we're talking baseball people. Now, my definition for those that don't know baseball, John, if you're a pitcher and four balls are thrown, according to the umpire, there's a walk, right? If three strikes are called, there's an out. Correct me. Is it speaking? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

So this Lombardi, everyone, this is a football.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

That's right. That's right. John Wooden, these this is uh, you know, how to you know, this Lombardi.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

First day of uh a fall camp was for uh or sour camp with football guys. Gentlemen, this is a football.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

That's right. With that said, um, you you had a a hell of a career, and I got to watch it. And and here you sit on the drive, and I'm you're an Atlanta boy. But I'm right. Gwinnett County, dude. I wasn't born 6'5. I think a lot of people would say, well, shit, man, if I was 6'5, 250, if God blessed me with that body, I could do what John did, but it wasn't that easy for you. Take me back to 14. You had a dream, you had a goal. Hell, I had the same goal, but it didn't turn out for me the way it did for you. I think a lot of our viewers may say, Dildy Rocky.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I've never seen you play, but you're pretty athletic on the golf course. I imagine you were pre-athletic growing up. Um, yeah, you got a great single baseball body. You're you're built almost exactly like Brett Boone. You ever ever beat Booney? I'll build very similar to Brett. Brett Ray. He could swing a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

He's built like a punter or uh or a place kicker.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yeah, yeah, he is. But uh good good body, man. Good body. Very athletic, too.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

How tall were you when you were 14?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Because you've got to be skinny as shit. Um 14, I'm gonna say I was probably 6'1 but 45. Really? I got into high school, I was 6'4, maybe 6'4 and a hook, 187 pounds. Wow. I was 6'5 and a hook and 245-ish. And then I that's that's I was playing weight too. My playing weight is about 245. Okay. Yeah, so from from 18 to 23, yeah, I put on one inch and it's like 60 pounds.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

You you you talked to me a little bit about how it all started and what it took to get here. And the reason I say that, I think a lot of people think that there is this, this you are kissed by this golden goose. Like, like God just anoints you and you just it comes easier for you. You don't have to have to put in the work of the talent, or excuse me, the talent precedes or negates the work. That's not the case for you. And I I don't know that our viewing audience knows that.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

No, I mean it's it's uh, you know, talent has to meet opportunity, has to meet has to meet hard work. Uh, there are a few freaks out there, like an Andrew Jones. You know, I came up with him with AJ. First time I ever saw AJ, he was 16 years old. Uh, I go down to to the structure league, it was my my first stint uh in professional baseball. Structure league is a is a little 40-game league that that um organizations have in September and October for their top prospects. And so I didn't I didn't sign with the Braves, June amateur draft uh first few days of June. I didn't sign until the end of August, early September. So I show up in uh in a structure league, September 15th-ish something. And one of the first dudes I I ever saw walking out of that piece of crap clubhouse in in in uh in in Palm Beach, Florida, West Palm Beach, Florida, was AJ. And he's walking through shirt off, 16, ripped. Like, I'm 18, I don't like that. And just that that that little shitty grin he always has. Yeah. Just strutting. I literally my first thought was who the blank of this guy. And uh yeah, he's uh Andrew Jones. Um he was 16, I was 18. And uh yeah, he was in the he's in the big leagues, you know, uh less than three years later. Wow uh as a as a 19-year-old. Um, but yeah, but very few guys are that big of freak. So I'll tell you right now, Andrew did not work very hard, uh, which is why Andrew just barely, by the skin of his teeth, got a whole thing. This year, he should have been a first ballot guy. Um, but when the body started slowing down when he was like 30, 31, 32, he didn't have the work ethic to to keep it kicked in gear. So he kind of got fat, kind of got slow, kind of got he'd always been kind of lazy. Um I'm not sure. Uh I'm not sure I ever saw him in the in the uh in the weight room after a game.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

So think about this. If if ringing the bell is making the show, and by the way, the show is making the majors. If you've if you've seen major league, they they talk about making the show. What what's the percentage or what's the differentiation percentage-wise between guys that were all work ethic, maybe undrafted free agents if we talk football, versus guys that just dude, they had the talent, but also the work ethic.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

What percentage? And that that uh percentage of whatnot. Well, let's say I'll give you a stat. So when my draft year of 1993, uh, if you were a first round pick, Orzan thinks I'm the best cross best player on their on their draft board, well, hit me number one. Uh there's 30 ups, 30 number one picks, you had a 14% chance of making the bailance. So out of 30 picks, what is that? Uh four, five, uh, not not not many. 14%. I was a 17th round draft pick. I did some very foolish things when it came to draft status, draftability. And you know, being an 18-year-old kid, naive as hell, um, was just I I I screwed up. I told them the truth. And it's when they asked me, they they don't want they don't want to waste, especially early round pick. They don't want to waste an early round pick on somebody that's not gonna sign. I already had a scholarship to play at the University of Georgia, and literally told them told every scout that talked to me, I don't think I'm ready to play pro ball yet. Don't draft me. I want to get in Georgia. How old are you now at this point? I'm 51 now. I was 18. 18th. And and they they and believe me, they would lie through their teeth to you as a player to get to get them to get you to whatever the hell they wanted you to do. And uh I didn't I didn't return the favorite. I told them exactly what I was thinking, and it took me from that was 93, 94 in high school for the left side with a devastating breaking ball. And uh yeah, knocking down the 17th round. Uh should have been uh well, after I I signed, I saw some of the guys were drafted ahead of me. I was like, really? This this this this plan was drafted ahead of me.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So you went the whole route versus the Georgia route. Dude, do you ever regret that? But look, my son's a freshman at UGA.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah. I mean, look, you would have loved it. Well, I'll walk what happened, you know? I don't know what would have happened. Uh I I love Athens. I've I've been a drunk, obnoxious Georgia fan making Georgia since I was you know the Herschel. Who's that coming down the track? Herschel Walker days and butt but Buck Balloo to Lindsey Scott. That's right. Um, and what was so cool is is is having gotten the big leads in Atlanta and especially those old Georgia guys I gotta hang out with. I've been on Buck Balloo's show, I don't know how many times. I did an autograph signing maybe a year and a half two years ago in Atlanta. Buck was on this side, Lindsay Scott was on this side. It's like this is awesome, man. It's awesome. I'm sitting right right right between Buck Balloon and Buck Balloo to Lindsay Scott. Um yeah, so it's it's been really cool. But uh yeah, it's the it's the what I would say success is it's when when opportunity meets ambition. And uh and yeah, I I I was a very talented guy. Um, but I mean w without the hard work, uh there was a lot of a lot of other talented guys that were I get I get to to to pro ball. Everybody can throw 9095. Everybody can.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

I've gotten a chance to know you where a lot of our viewing audience maybe hasn't. We've hung out up uh I I would say more than than than I thought we would have, and we just hit it off. You told me something when we were kind of prepping for this that you were reading books at 14. You were reading books about even being from making Georgia, I could I could still read. That's right. But about pitching, about guys that that threw the ball, arm angle, and and the way they set up hitters.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, I I I I've told this too. I got a wild hair up my ass. I don't know what created it. At 14, I wanted to be a big league ball player. And uh I'm gonna tell you a really awesome story after this. Um, and my philosophy was I had to do something every day to to achieve that goal. Uh, whether it was reading a book, whether it was reading an article about Roger Clemens reading a book by by old Hershey's or reading a book by Tom House, who became my mentor 15 years later, um, or playing or working out, or something had to be done every day. And for the most part, you know, Freer and Fair is here, I stuck to it. And I can remember after high school football games, while the rest of my buddies went out and it was the it was the drove lapse between the Burr King and the Gary Queen parking lots. That's what you didn't make it. It was as a 17-year-old, you rode your car and parked the parking lot. That's right. Um, that's what they were doing. I did not get my uh arm care workout in today. So I went home and did my 45-minute arm care workout on a Friday night while they're all you know chasing, chasing the cat around. I'm at home doing my stretching and my jobs and my and my uh bands uh and all that stuff. Um and did that. And I did that all the way through high school.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

John, did you study hitters because obviously you didn't go to Georgia? Once I got a big league, once you get a big leaders, you study hitters tendencies, what they did, yeah. Super poor.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, pictures' meetings. Yeah. You sit through all the pictures with uh in in Atlanta with Leo Mazzoni. We can we go hot and cold zones. The main thing, once you've been in the league for a little bit, it's not hitters' tendencies, it's it's me as a closer, I'm gonna face you based off what happened last time I faced you.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I'm gonna remember how I faced you last time, you're gonna remember how I faced you last time too. And I'm gonna I'm gonna adjust my sequencing depending on game situation. If it's a 10-10-nothing ball game, I don't give a shit. I'm just not gonna walk you. Here you go. Get yourself out. If it's a 2-1 ball game, then I'm gonna how did I face Jeff Bagwell last time? I don't make some kind of adjustment off that. I started in fastball last time, we're starting in breaking ball this time.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

So I want to get into something that I think is is just intriguing. The great John Rocker here uh on the drive. I I want to talk about different counts. When I talk about pitch counts, bro, I'm talking about, again, for those of you that don't know baseball, four balls is a walk, three strikes is an out. For those people that don't know baseball, John just saying.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Maybe that play cricket and know that.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

It's the American pastime, but as we know, there's an influx of people that's uh here we are, here we are. Uh so let's talk about the O-2 count. So if I'm a pitcher and I've got the hitter down, oh two, there's zero balls, two strikes. I need one strike, one strike. And guess what? They're wrung up. That out is collected. Uh it's a huge deal. What's your mindset if it's O-2? Because there's a lot of people, I guarantee you that are watching right now that feel like they're O2 in their business. They're O2 in a situation monetarily where it's favorable or let a hitter. Well, they're the pitcher. They're the they're they're the John Rocker of the situation.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

So they're the hitter. Yeah. They don't want to be O2 in your business if you're a hitter.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, you don't want that. But let's take a pitcher. Where things are favorable, things are going my way. When it's O-2, what is John Rocker thinking?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

I'll attack. Uh, and and not really sure which pitch, depending on how I got there, depends on. We throw pitches for four reasons uh in the big leagues. Uh what the previous pitch did, what the hitter did to the previous pitch. Uh at least I remember this. I haven't said this in a few months. Um yeah, I gave him a little spot too. Anyway, let me remember right now. Before we we three we threw a pitch. So based on what the previous pitch did, I'm gonna make my next selection of pitch. Uh not necessarily change up, all speed, or uh breaking ball, fastball, whatever. But I am gonna attack because I do know from getting beat into my head uh for years and years and years, I know what a hitter's stats are in every count. Oh oh, oh one, oh two, two, oh, three oh, three, one. And the hitter's worst batting average is an 0-2 count.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

So the uh Would you try to throw a strike or throw a waist pit sort of stuff? No, I wouldn't waste one.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

I'm gonna attack that hitter. Now I'm not always, you know, attack him, take high down the middle. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna throw something at him because he's he's trying to protect.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Um, I'm just gonna bounce a 58-foot breaking ball at you. I know Major League Baseball hitters on average hit 089 on 02. Well, I'm gonna why I'm gonna throw him a 58-foot breaking ball, has no chance of getting this hitter out when he's in his most vulnerable position right now. I'm going to attack your ass. I love it. That was that was a Greg Mike's philosophy. Uh, because I had some pretty bad pitching coaches in the minors, and a lot of them were don't give up an O2 hit. That was like the car, we're gonna find you 50 bucks, you give up an O2 hit. So what does that make you do? Makes you throw a fastball or eyeballs or a 58-foot breaking ball. It makes you a chicken versus snake. And I even got I got to the to the big leagues, and Greg's like, I'm gonna give up a lot of O2 hits, but I'm also gonna tackle a lot of O2 outs, too. And that's why Greg could get through nine innings and 85 pitches.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I think that's amazing. So, you know, there's a lot of people that get to the place they want to be from a closing standpoint. We're gonna get into closing, and you, in my opinion, what being one of the most entertaining, uh, one of the most dominant closers of my era, I witnessed it, I watched it, I saw you at Turner Field do it, uh, and and here you sit. So 0-2 is one thing, but 2-0 is a different, different, different animal altogether when the hitter, again, you're the the count is 2-0, two balls to the hitter, zero strikes to the pitcher. I'd say a lot of our viewing audience is there as well, where it's not favorable. The count is not in in in it's not blessing you. You're not you're not wanting this. You'd flip that if you could. Now you're behind, John. Two balls, no strikes. What's your philosophy there?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Uh for me as a pitcher, I'm not talking about you can you can spin this thing into to you know the business model of the world. As a pitcher, it's gonna depend on the situation. If I've got first base open and I've got Barry Bonds up, and he's 2-0, and it's a one-run game and there's a runner on a second, I'm walking here, fat ass. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not giving Barry something, you know, some overplay 2-0 when he's just licking his chops. I got a base open, you're you're putting you on. Um, if it's 2-0 in a five-run game, you go. There you go. Let's let's let's let's yeah, you don't take me deep or you're gonna pop it up center field. Um, yeah, I do remember there was a story uh facing Bagwell, and it was three of them to Jeff. And I needed some work. I had fished in four or five days. They put me in there. It was like an eight to one ball game. There might already be two outs. I went through and bagwell, and it was in the old Astrodome. I'm just like, here you go, dude. And there's a picture of me um of the highlight on Sportsner, just going, wow. He had no freaking mezzanine level of the old Astrodome. There's three out. I don't give a shit, man. Because I think that right there makes Bobby less pissed than me walking his ass on four straight with an eight and one leaf. That's great. Yeah, by chew my blank, are you doing an eight release one on four straight pitches?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

The reason I say that, how many times O2, we talk about the pre-vit defense in football? When you're ahead, I mean you've got you've got the right. Damn it. I think sometimes in business, man, we're right on the cusp of what it is we're looking for. We get conservative. We we we take our foot off the gas. Maybe we're looking at what it is that potentially will be. Maybe we we change our mindset. I love how you said attack. Oh two-o, excuse me, where you when you're you're down, two balls, no strikes, you're being more scientific. You're looking at the hitter, you're looking at who's behind the hitter, you're looking at who's on base, you're wanting to intellectually make a decision that's not gonna put your team at risk, and you're not gonna ruin the getting. You're not gonna ruin the save opportunity. I want to fast forward to this 3-2. Because, dude, 3-2 as a pitcher, now, a pitcher, three balls, two strikes. Nowhere to put them. My dad used to say, nowhere to put them, son. Believe it or not, John. I was a pitcher, not as good as you, but yeah, I can throw it a little, right? I'm just saying, is it for a second baseman for a Brett Boone? Who'd you go with it? For Brett Boone type. Yeah, okay, okay. Anyway, uh, here we are. Nonetheless, nowhere to put them. Three-two. What was your thought?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Don't throw a ball, I'm sure, throw a strike. Yeah, well, I'll always attack him. Again, game situation. Um down by a bunch of runs, up by a bunch of runs, tie ball game, one run game, depending on who's up. Uh, you know, game situation dictates pitch selection a lot. Um what the previous pitch did dictates what the next pitch is going to be a lot. Uh we use a phrase called tunneling. I want everything to come out of fastball flame. If I just threw that previous hitter, a fastball, and it was out or third, he fouls it off, we're 3-2, that was a 3-2 pitch, fouls it off, we're still 3-2. If you I thought we had a good rip at it, I need to pull the string. The key to hitting is timing. The key to pitching is disrupting timing. That fastball out or third. He had a pretty good rip at it. I'm gonna throw that shit again. He's starting to time a little bit. I'm gonna throw my slider just on the same slot that previous pitch that previous pitch was, except it's gonna hang right. So what the previous pitch what the hitter did to the previous pitch, or right on it, what the previous pitch did. I want the slider look just like that fastball. So it's game situation, what the hitter did to the previous pitch, what the previous pitch did.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I think so many people underestimate what goes in to the success that successful people enjoy. Again, this isn't talent, this is preparation. This is preparation, John. I mean, you're not only computing what just happened, you're computing the last time you faced a batter, two, three, four times ago that this batter, again, tried to face you. What happened? What pitch did you throw? How did they respond? Was it out of the strike zone? Was it high and tight? Was it down and in, whatever it might be? And I think a lot of times in business, we we we look at the successful. Again, we underestimate the level of preparation that the people put in the city.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

What's the process it took to get there? All you see is the boats and the planes and the houses. You you didn't see 15 years ago when they're they're a three-bedroom apartment or in some small little dinky house and they're working 14 hours a day. Sure. You didn't see that far. And you know, to bring that up as in a baseball reference, again, how many times I was the last one at the ballpark. Even like at A-ball, you know, A-ball, double A, rookie ball. I mean, how many times I would pitch my game and game's over, 20 minutes after the game's over, the clubhouse is empty. I gotta get my workout in. I'm I'm there, I'm I'm I'm there with the damn clubhouse guys or washing uniforms and shining shoes, and I'm in the freaking whatever little piece of shit weight room we had, our little Meyer League clubhouse. I'm in there on the treadmill, doing my arm care, yada yada yada. And I'm I'm leaving at 1245 at night. And those guys have been at the bar for an hour and a half, and I'm just walking out the door. Oh, yeah. And those guys end up selling lady chem boards of Sears while I was playing the little series in Yankee State.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Damn right, sir. So go to strikeout pitch, because um, you know, when I was when I was building my business, I I used to have uh these uh statements or sayings or rebuttals that was uh a fastball, a curve, a slider. Did you have a pitch that in the moment you needed and and you could kind of go to it that that kind of let you down less often than another pitch?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

I was equal. Uh I I would change speeds with my sliders, change speed, change depths of breaking, depths of break with my slider. But again, what the what the hitter did to the previous pitch and game situation dictated of what the next pitch was going to be. If I if I threw, oh well, fastball, takes it, okay, I didn't get a readoff of you. Oh well, breaking ball. It's a 58-foot breaking ball. It bounces two feet in front of the plate. He swings at it, I'm gonna make you I'm gonna make your ass hit this breaking ball. For whatever reason, you're not seeing it that well today. I'm gonna make I'm just gonna keep flipping them up there until eventually you punch out.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

The rock star, John Rocker. I remember telling you on the golf course, you were like, So what do you do? What's going on here? And I told you about my company. And for years I used to tell guys if you get up to bat, let's say it's baseball, and you strike out seven times, get three base hits, you make a million bucks. 70% of the time you're failed. 30% of the time you're winning. You make a million bucks. And so many times I think guys are too hard on themselves. John, they talk themselves out of success. Johnny, but they talk them. Okay, if you've been at 300, that's that's pretty quality. That's on, I would say, the upper echelon of individuals that that that sometimes beat themselves down mentally because failure is a part of success. Failure is a part of getting to where you want to go. Let me just ask you, what what were some failures? You had to have some setbacks. It wasn't it, it could have been a straight line. Could you give us just some of the some of the dips in the road to where you went?

SPEAKER_01 22:40

I mean, in my mind, failure was was failure, was the teacher is to what adjust adjustment I need to make to get myself to a successful place. Um yeah, I mean, just as a as a as a minor league starter, uh, yeah, there there would be, you know, from from rookie ball, which is your little pee-wee guy, I'm 19 years old, and I've got, yeah, that's a long way to the big leagues, man. Um, you know, to double A, high A, you know, et cetera, where you're you're literally you're in double A. You string together two or three good months, you might find it, might find your fat ass in the big leagues for you know September call-up. And I can't tell you how many times I would throw two or three games every one, seven innings, one or two runs, eight, nine strikeouts, three, four hits. And I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm car shopping. And then next game, inning of the third, eight runs, no punch out, six walks. I'm like, I'm gonna pay or go, I'm gonna find myself another job. Um, which is just giving us such a small, yeah, it was such a mind F Yeah that you just you know, two or three weeks, you're on top of the world. I've I've had three three straight starts, man. I'm dealing. I think you just trying to just get your ass hand to you.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

I I I think it's funny, and I think our viewing audience will take I I found this intriguing. We're golfing together, and I would just ask you all these questions. You were so cool to to to to listen. And uh by the way, dude, you get too many strokes in the golf course on me. That's just too many, John. You're gonna have to you have to bring that down. Okay, I can't beat you if you have that many strokes. I'm just I want to throw that in there. Okay, we'll throw that in there.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

We'll negotiate.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

We'll negotiate. But you used to talk to me and tell me about literally how you would study hitters and how you would look at the former at bats, what they did, what their tendencies were. I just think people view success and successful people in such a light that it's it's almost uh inundated, or it is it is some kind of of a blessing that you just walk into it and it just comes to you and it's not like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

There was an amount of study and preparation you put in. Some something a little political here. If I have to hear unsuccessful people blame white privilege for success, I'm just I'm just gonna start throwing height micers. I am so blank and tired of hearing that. I really am. I mean, like like like uh we talked about uh a few minutes ago. Um I have I swear I have three friends that grew up straight up white trash. And I and I I've told you, I'm I'm not sure two of them graduated from high school. And I know for a fact two of them started slinging a hammer at 17 years old just to put food on the table for their mom and dad, like eight siblings. And they are stupid loaded now. 100 million plus loaded now. They didn't get white privilege, they got white trash privilege, and now looking as they've been fussing their ass for years and years and years and years and years.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Johnny, I went to you. You know Central Gwinnett High School in Gwinnett County. It was 70-30 African-American to Caucasian. So all my friends growing up were were your white ass with kind of, but you see how see my dark skin. That's why I dress so good and dance so good, John. Just so you can break it down. You've seen me dance, you've seen me dance, yeah, you've seen me dress. But but here's the point. I don't care if you're black, red, yellow, white, brown, pick a color. There, there's there's something you've got to do to get your damn self out of the situation you're in. And if if I just sit around and point it out, other people, if I'm not sure. If I point at other people as to why I'm not where I want to be, if that's all I want to do, then you know what? More than likely, unless they come save me, I'm gonna be stuck right where my ass is. But once I start to take action, once I start to prepare, and that's what you did, regardless of your frame, you started to prepare and you started to make decisions, you started to uh just take accountability for for where you were, and that's what rose you through the ranks. So again, uh as we're as we're talking, uh, as you studied hitters, you did. You looked at what hitters did. So when you went to the mound and you knew you were facing a Todd Helton, you knew you were facing a Jeff Bagwell, you knew you were facing a Manny Ramirez, you had a gameplay. It wasn't just whatever the Kesher calls, I'm gonna throw. It wasn't like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I remember the the first hitter I ever faced in the big leagues was um Todd Hollingsworth. Uh if you remember that guy, Cubs and Dodgers guy. Um, the reason I remember his name and laugh when I say it is I I can still hear Harry Carey calling, nobody's Todd Hollingshid. We're out here carefully what's your place's names. And um it's right. And you know, Javi Lopez uh is catching series. And uh, you know, one thing about me growing up in Macon, Georgia, but I was a Brace fan the time I was five years old. And you know, I'd I'd I I came up being fans of these guys, you know, in in 90 and 91 and and all that, and now I'm on the same field with them. I'm like, I've been a fan of Javi Lopez for now I'm now I'm throwing to him in a big league game. But he he put down three, two slider to Hollingsworth from like, yeah.

unknown 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

I I I shook off my veteran catcher, the very first hitter I ever faced with the big leagues. Wow and painted for a punch out. Um even Leo. I come in, Leo's like, you shook your catcher off the first hit, your your your very first hitter of the big leagues?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

I'm like, Yeah, we'll throw that shit.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Um, we're willing.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

John freaking rockers where we are. Can I just say this? Can I, John, here on sometimes you got to trust yourself. Sometimes, look, I get it. I've had veterans that were coaches to me. I've had veterans that I looked up to. I've had men, women that that, you know, I aspired to, wow, if I could be in their presence, here you are at Javi Lopez, number eight. Dear God's presence, he calls a pitch. You're like, dude, that's not in the moment. I just think there's a there's an innate gut instinct that we're all born with, that we follow in the moment, that at times define where we go, whether success or failure. By the way, did did he didn't hit a home run, did he? No, he'd be struck out looking. Struck out looking! That's what I'm talking about, Johnny. That's what I'm talking about. The great John Rocker. It fires me up. It fires me up. I'm gonna go see that on YouTube, buddy.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Um May probably 7th or 8th of 98. Really? Yeah, Uncle the 5th. So it's been, yeah, probably the 7th. I didn't think it was this the seventh was my first 98. First, first Dame they got me in.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

So funny. 98. You old man. Hey, you're sold. Sold. Our old guest, great John Rocker. I want to get into mental. John, look, we we may we may do two episodes here. Do you do do you have a mind doing two episodes? Because I may just save you for one more. Okay. I want to get into mental mechanics because a lot of what you do, and I think a lot of what um a lot of our viewing audience does is mental repetition. It's putting yourself in the moment, in the moment, in the moment. So when you're there, you're not a rookie, you're not a virgin. It's not the first time. You don't feel uncomfortable. There's not butterflies. Like, like it's it's a sense of, you know, again, when you find the end zone, act like you've been there. But a lot of times guys make an amount of money or or they get in a situation where they're like, holy shit, the moment is bigger than they are. I think the way to get away from that is mental mechanics. We've talked about this. What were some mental mechanics you did pre-game to get you ready?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Um shit, you know, I always wanted to be very aggressive. And it was, it was a uh You sprint into the mountain. Yeah, it was a complete shift in mentality is what got me to the big leagues. Um, you know, it was it was it was good and bad, blessing and and curse to be drafted by the Braves again, Macon, Georgia. Drafted by the Braves. That was when you know Atlanta was hot. That was in '93. They they had been to back-to-back World Series, or World Series 91 and 92. Um and uh, you know, of course, Macon's 80 miles from Atlanta, so we everybody in Macon's got Braves fever, and oh my god, I got draft for the Braves. And uh, and so I go away, and then I, you know, I well when I was in high school, my senior year, I had a 0.4A. I gave up, I gave up six hits my entire senior year. I had like 90 punch outs and like 40 some odd innings. Um just dominant.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

How many hit batsmen did you have, John?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

I probably I probably had more HPPs than I did this. I probably did. I was not, I was not a connoisseur control.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Have you ever thrown anybody? By the way, I'm getting a lot of text messages. People asking, have you ever thrown okay? What what yes, sir? What's the thing?

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Okay. So uh um, you know, so grab my brace, and I thought it was gonna be really cool. I got to come back. Uh Atlanta had a a South Atlanta league team with the making brakes. They're they're low eight. Uh so I gotta live at home, my childhood bed, and all my friends, and yeah. I thought it was gonna be really cool. Not cool. Uh, because I'm toting like a five and a half ERA, and every time I pitch, I gotta leave like 42 tickets. And all my buddies are coming out watching me go two or third innings and get up an eight spot. I'm like, no, I'm this guy. Well, the last time we saw you 18 months ago, you were throwing no hitters. Now you can't get out of the third inning. Well, competition's a little bit better, y'all. Uh so it really started mentally screwing them. And I mean, I was formulating excuses when I was 20 years old. What am I gonna say to all my friends and family and buddies in Macon when I get released, I have to come home with my table between my legs. What am I gonna say? So I was terrified of failing. Uh, I can remember literally being on the mound and calculating my ERA in my head on the mound, delivering facing hitters, by getting this guy out. My year I'll be a 4.66. I mean, like, literally, during the game. You can't piss. I pitched terrified to not fail. I didn't pitch to win, I pitched to not fail. And I can remember being double A, and this this goes on for, I mean, three years, just was not enjoying playing. Literally, when the strike happened in '94, I was like, I hope they never resolve it. That was my excuse for not being in the big leagues, not me not being good enough. I literally was hoping the strike would end Major League Baseball. So then I would have an excuse for failing, and it wouldn't, it wouldn't be my fault. That literally was going through my head to me, a mental pussy. Uh, that ended up becoming closer for the Braves that could shut down World Series game, et cetera. And and what what what what happened was uh I want to be clear, I want our listening audience to be sure.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

It's kind of a long story. But Johnny, real fast, I want to come in because here's the point. All of us have experienced that. Where we had a season of dominance, of success. Maybe the competition increases, like you said. Maybe there's a lull, maybe there's a slump call or whatever you want. But then we have to, we have to refind who it is we know we are. And then again, for you to go from that striking out the side, zero ERA, to now you're giving up how many runs? And by the way, it's it's it's it's even John, it's even worse when your friends and your family and people.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah, those mice girlfriends sitting right there. I'm getting I'm getting pulled in the freaking third. Uh yeah, embarrassing. So uh one of those, uh I became a big student of what's called neuralism programming, NLP, if you know what NLP is. And a foundation of NLP, fundamental foundation, is learning to reframe your situation. And I can remember, I was not a student of NLP at this point. I did it by accident, but it worked. So I'm in double A, and the only reason they kept me around was I was 6'5 and through 95. But you know, I I think I was a four and a half ERA and a 500 record throughout the minors.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

101 and 102 at times, sir. Just saying.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Well, and I wouldn't throw in that that hard then. I was I was probably top of 96 just back then. So I that my stuff, my size, that's what kept me around, not my numbers. And uh, but it literally it was a a a mental, a conscious mental switch that that ignited it, ignited the rocket boosters, and then there it goes. So we're we're in double A. Uh, we're playing Saturday night in Jacksonville, Florida against the Jacksonville Suns, who was the Tigers double A athlete. And if we won the game, we clinched a spot in the playoffs. If we lost the game, then Sunday's game, you know, what was was gonna matter more. Uh, guess who's pitching Sunday's game? Me. Sunday day game, one o'clock in. We win Saturday night, we clinch a spot, which meant Sunday's game doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

And you're starting.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

I'm starting.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

And so we get done with the game. I'm pitching Sunday. So I gotta rest up. The whole team goes out to celebrate, drinking, party, and chasing ass around. I'm the only one back at the La Quinta Inn in Jack and Florida going just pissed. Like, they're not having fun, I mean, and I'm one back here, they're all having fun, and I gotta sit here and go to sleep and pitch this piece of shit game that doesn't matter. This game does not stink and matter, and I gotta pitch mad as hell. I'll get the other thing. I'm like, oh shit, if tomorrow's game doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if we want to lose. And at that point in time, I'd already been put on the 40-man lost, which is kind of a big accomplishment. Again, just because of my stuff, not because of my numbers. Um, but laying in bed, I'm like, oh my gosh, tomorrow's game doesn't matter for the first time in four years. I can go out and pitch in a game with no consequence. I can go out and actually just have fun, play it. And so I I flip that mentality of being scared to pitching, pitching aggressively, pitching to have fun, walking out, playing on the battle of some bitch on this field, head back, chest out, strutting out there. Seven innings, one run, ten punch outs, and I get on that bus where I'm at agreement going, okay, we might be on to something here. Changing mentality.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

I want to come in right here, John, because I I want to I want to save this if I if I could for our second episode, because here's what I want to say. You just said at this season of your career, you haven't hit 100 miles an hour yet. You're at 95, 96. You said that hasn't happened yet. Not only that, you're a starter here. You're not a closer yet. There's a lot of people that their best is yet to come. John, they don't know that. They don't know that. They think that their best is behind them, not before them.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

After that game, I had no idea what the next year was gonna hold. Well, you know, it was a mate.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

I hope someone that has no idea what their next year or next five years are gonna look like tune in to the second episode of John Rocker on the Drive.