Episode 11: The Truth About Forgiveness (And Why You’re Struggling With It)

Forgiveness is one of the most talked about—and most misunderstood—parts of emotional and spiritual health.

In this episode of A Journey to Whole Woman Health, we break down what forgiveness really is, what it’s not, and why so many women struggle with it.

If you’ve ever thought:
 “I can’t forgive because I can’t forget…”
 “They don’t deserve my forgiveness…”
 “Forgiving means I have to let them back into my life…”

This episode will change the way you see forgiveness.

We discuss:
 • The biggest myths about forgiveness
 • Why forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation
 • Why “forgive and forget” is not the goal
 • How unforgiveness affects your mental, emotional, and physical health
 • A simple, research-based framework (the REACH model) to help you move forward
 • Why forgiveness is a decision—not a feeling

This conversation is for the woman holding onto hurt, resentment, or regret—and wondering how to finally let go.

You don’t have to stay stuck.

🎧 Listen on Apple & Spotify
 📺 Watch on YouTube

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to A Journey to Whole Woman Health, the podcast where science, mental health, and faith come together to educate, empower, and encourage women in every season of life. We are your hosts, Dr. Jamie Irwin, Ford-certified OBGYN, and Dr.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Mary Catherine Nader, licensed professional counselor with a PhD in counselor education and supervision. Jamie and I have been friends for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Each week we explore the intersection of body, mind, and soul, bringing you evidence-based medicine, meaningful conversations about mental health, and stories that remind us we're not alone on the journey. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's begin the journey.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Welcome back. It's another Wednesday. We're here to journey together. We have our pink on, um, doing things to take care of ourselves as women. And um today we're talking about a really exciting and important topic. Um, and it's the topic of forgiveness. Forgiveness.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Okay. Let's get right in. We've had a lot of feedback that you love listeners, you love kind of our conversational approach. Um, you plug us into your ears when you're going out for a walk, and you may feel like you're just sitting down with us having a cup of coffee, which we'd love. I mean, and that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing. We're having a little coffee talk. So um, yeah, it's Dr. Irwin, board-certified OBGYN, and Dr. Mary Catherine Nader, therapist. And forgiveness is where we're at today. Why do we need to talk about this, Mary Catherine?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

I think that forgiveness is such a big part of our lives. I mean, as Christians, it's something we hear a lot about, but and we're called to, but there's a lot of misconceptions about forgiveness, and then people aren't really sure how to forgive. What are the steps? How do I do that? Um, so I want to kind of highlight one of my favorite uh theories today. I actually got to take a whole class in graduate school on forgiveness a whole semester long.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

A lot of people don't realize there's lots of theories on forgiveness. There's people who just study forgiveness. Um, it really is a fascinating and a big topic. Um, so hopefully today this will just kind of give a brief intro for people to just recognize what it is and what it looks like and what it's not.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I'm ready to learn because that's shocking to me that you could spend a whole semester on forgiveness. Obviously, it's important. Sure. Do you think a lot of people struggle with it?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Oh, definitely. I mean, whether it's forgiving someone else, whether it's forgiving ourselves. Um I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. I mean, forgiveness can play a huge role in lots of different areas of our life, whether it's affecting sometimes anxiety or trauma or grief, um, depression. So it feeds into all of those. Oh, for sure. Definitely. It can have an effect on all of those different things and on relationships. Yeah. You know, whether it's the current relationship you're in or unforgiveness can affect future relationships that you're entering into.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Okay. We're here to learn. So what is forgiveness not? Okay. Start there.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

What are what is not forgiveness? What is not forgiveness? So I think forgiveness is not justifying what happened. Forgiveness is not saying that what happened is okay. Um, it's not excusing it. It's not saying there won't be a consequence. Um, it actually, if there wasn't something that was offensive that happened, there's no need for forgiveness. So, really, one of the first steps of forgiveness is just acknowledging what is it you are forgiving. What was the wrongdoing? Because if there wasn't a wrongdoing, there's no point in going forward and forgiveness. There's nothing to forgive. So that's forgiveness is not just moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

It's also not forgive and forget. I think that that is said a lot. It is not in the Bible. Okay. Um, nowhere. You know, God, you know, as far as the East is from the West, like taking that guilt from you. But if you've read the Bible, you'll recognize that there are a lot of stories about wrongdoing and things that were forgiven. Most of the Bible is a record of mistakes people have made that they were forgiven for, but they are written down. They're not forgotten. Interesting. So that forgive and forget is not true. We don't have to do that. That's not the standard. Well, it's not possible in a lot of think about if if a family member was murdered. You're not gonna forget that you had that family member and that that murder happened. Yeah. Not possible. So if you say forgive and forget, you're telling that person, that family, they can't forgive. And that's literally impossible. You can't forget that happened. Where did the phrase even come from? It's that would be an interesting study. I I honestly don't know, but it's quoted a lot or stated a lot. And I hear I have people tell me, I can never forgive because I can never forget that that happened. And that's honestly true. Not that you can ever forgive, but that you can't, there are a lot of things we can't and we shouldn't forget. For example, if it was something abusive, you you have learned from that. You shouldn't return to it. There are changes that need to be made and consequences that maybe need to happen. So forgetting is actually not healthy in that circumstance. You need to remember in order to protect yourself in the future. Yes, that's right. So it's that change in perspective. Um, there it doesn't even always involve reconciliation. Forgiveness. That's a separate topic, reconciliation.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Forgiveness um is we'll get into more, but reconciliation, it's not always possible. Think about it. If it was a drive-by, a stranger, you know, a wreck, um, somebody who's died, somebody you've never met, somebody who's now in jail, you're not gonna reconcile with that person. And what do you mean by that? Like enter back into a healthy relationship with that person. Maybe you've never had a relationship with that person. Maybe that person isn't a safe person to be in a relationship with. Um that reconciliation is not always part of forgiveness. Okay. And that expectation, again, sometimes keeps people from forgiving because they think I can never be in a relationship, whether physically they can't because that person has died, or they're in jail, or they don't know exactly who this person was that did this to them. Um, they think I can't forgive, and that's not true, because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna um move forward in reconciliation. And then I think the last myth that we have is that forgiveness depends on an apology or it depends on the other person who offended. And that's not true either. Forgiveness is our decision, our choice to forgive. It's us choosing to let go of and be set free from unforgiveness. We actually do it for ourselves. You know, anything to do with the other person? It can, if it leads to reconciliation, definitely. And definitely when that person is apologetic and, you know, wanting um to receive that forgiveness, then yes. But it's um really, you know, when we are choosing not to forgive or holding on to that resentment, um, the best metaphor that I've heard is it's like us drinking poison and expecting it to harm the other person. Like holding on to that is doing harm to us. And they're just going on with their life. Sometimes they don't even realize that we were offended by it, that we're holding on to it, that we're resentful of it. And it unforgiveness, it can be poisonous for us, um, physically, mentally, emotionally. I mean, you can see people uh have such resentment, hold on to so much anger, and that spills out into other areas of their lives. And I'm not saying it's easy, um but we can talk about that next. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Okay. So myths about it, what it's not, it really doesn't depend on someone else. Doesn't mean we have to reconcile. Okay. All right. Well, good. Well, how how does this happen? And tell us more about these theories.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

I had no idea. Sure. There's there's multiple theories on forgiveness. Um, I brought my favorite one that we can talk about, and um it's by Dr. Everett Worthington. He has studied forgiveness and is um just has a really great model called the Reach Model. Um, so he says the first thing to do is to recall. Um, so recall the hurt. What like we talked about earlier, what is it that actually you are forgiving? What is it that really offended you? Like really spend time recognizing what it was. And sometimes it wasn't just the event, maybe it's what it really meant to you or how it hurt you. Um, so really taking the time here is important because if you don't acknowledge what you're forgiving, none of the rest of this matters. So being honest with yourself about what was the offense for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Okay. So maybe I felt dismissed, I felt overlooked. Exactly. I felt diminished, I felt unworthy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. That can be like really like at the root. Like, how did whatever this offense was, how did it make me feel? Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Mm-hmm. What was the thing that actually right caused harm? And what how did I actually, how did it affect me? Okay. Um, and then the next one is empathize. And this one might be hard and tricky for people, but there's been research on forgiveness that shows that when empathy is involved, it helps forgiveness to be stickier. It helps it to last longer. So empathy looks like in this case, recognizing, hey, has there ever been a time where I've dismissed someone without maybe even recognizing that I, that I was doing that? You know, has there, which yes, definitely there has. Or has there ever been a time when I was tired and I said something that in anger or that I really didn't mean? Or, you know, whatever that offense was, it's hard harder for people when you're thinking about something big like murder. Um, but maybe empathizing what that person, what was their life like growing up? What did it look like for them? What um has there ever been a time that I've made a mistake, you know, that I've done something that I regretted? Um, you can dig in a lot deeper there, but just really trying to think about times when you might have had a similar mistake or experience, and what could their perspective have been? You know, like maybe they didn't mean to dismiss me, they're just having a stressful day, or even like our previous podcast um guest was sharing, you never know what's going on in someone's life. Yeah, you know, maybe the reason they're responding that way is they just found out that they had a miscarriage. Right. Or they just left the hospital and witnessed something really traumatic.

unknown 11:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

We never know what somebody's going through. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

We've talked about empathy on previous episodes. And so take us back there, the difference between empathy and sympathy. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

So empathy is really trying to think about what it is like from that other person's perspective. Um, so not necessarily assuming, like we've talked about, that you know exactly what they're going through or feeling, but recognizing, hey, there's probably a lot more there that I don't know, and being open and curious to what could that be like for that person?

SPEAKER_01 12:36

If we did more of that in general, don't you think the world would be a better place to get out of ourselves and just try to think about others more? Yes, yeah, for sure. Yeah. So we're in the reach theory. R was recall, E was empathy. What's next?

SPEAKER_02 12:51

So um the next is altruistic gift, which really just means give you are choosing to give them this gift. It's not something that they've earned. It's not something that they've done enough to get. You know, and as Christians, this is a good one for us because we recognize, hey, we didn't earn God's forgiveness. Yeah. Um, that was given to us. So choosing and recognizing sometimes makes it easier when you just say, Hey, I am choosing to give this gift here. Even when they don't deserve it? Even when they don't deserve it. Because we we receive that forgiveness even when we don't deserve it, right? There's not what can we do to earn that? Yeah. And we don't have to earn God's love. Right. Yes. Yeah. And so to also think there's a great story about Corey Tin Boom, um, who was a Holocaust survivor, sharing about forgiveness after um in Germany, after surviving the Holocaust, after witnessing her sister dying in a concentration camp, and having a prison guard from that camp come forward who did not recognize her, but she obviously recognized. And that guard asked for forgiveness just as from being a guard, not recognizing that that she had actually been in this guard's camp. And she says, I'm gonna get it wrong, but you you can read it. She, it's in one of her books, but she shares that she who had just spoken about forgiveness did not want to forgive this person. Yeah. And prayed, God, like, I'm gonna extend my hand. Like this, this guard said, Will you please forgive me? And stuck out his hand. And she said, God, I that's all I can do. And extending her hand felt that forgiveness, God's forgiveness just flow through her, you know. And then so as Christians, recognizing like this is a gift that's not just it's not ours, even to give. Like God has given that forgiveness, and it's similar to what we've talked about before. God works through us, you know, to extend that we don't we can't manufacture that forgiveness. We just can't.

unknown 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah. So altruistic gift. Amazing. Yeah. So then the next one is just to commit, make the decision. And I I think forgiveness, a lot of people might have the misperception of it's just this one and done. And for some things, maybe it is. But I think it's a lot more like grief, which we'll get into in a future episode, but it's a process, you know. Um, there you're gonna forgive this, and then maybe if it's a person who's died, like you're gonna have to forgive in a whole new way at that next birthday or at some future event. Um, that doesn't mean you haven't forgiven, just like grief. It doesn't mean you haven't grieved. It just means this is a new stage. This is a new part of that journey of forgiveness for you. Um, so committing to it, and then the next step is holding on to forgiveness is the H is really just deciding this is what I'm doing. It's a process, it's a journey. And um, I'm committing to be on it and to continue to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Cause it can be an ongoing process. Do you believe that to forgive multiple times? So yes, yes. We feel like, okay, I've been there, I've done that, cross it off the list, feeling like I'm okay. I've let it well, I was about to say I've let it go, but we don't have to let it go. Right. Yeah. But forgiveness and then coming back to it again and again and again. Is that okay? I mean, what yes, does that say something about us if we feel the need to we're failing? No, it does not.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

We're not doing it perfectly. Am I doing forgiveness right, Mary Catherine? That's what I really need to know. Am I doing it right? Am I getting the gold star? God help me. Yeah, no, it's true.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

I mean, I think that even in forgiving ourselves for things, yeah, there might be something we forgive ourselves for, and then it comes up again somehow. And we think, ugh, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Because I think this is I think I have an easier time personally forgiving other people compared to forgiving myself. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yes. I think a lot of people do. Yeah. I think recognizing, I mean, these same steps, but for ourselves, recognizing what is it that I'm forgiving myself for? What was the mistake that I made, you know? And then empathizing with ourselves. And that can sometimes just be the reminder, like we've talked about before with perfectionism, of hey, I'm human.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

You know, I make mistakes sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

One thing my therapist really ingrained in me and over a long period of time, I think this was the lesson we kept coming back to as far as forgiving myself, was that in the moment, whatever it was, I was doing what I thought was best at the time. Yes. Where does that fit in into that reach theory?

SPEAKER_02 17:54

I think that goes with the empathy. Okay. Of just empathizing, like, hey, Jamie of that moment knew what she knew and was making the best decision that she could make at that time. You know, same thing for me. Yeah. Looking back on moments, it's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that. But hey, I'm how many years out of that now? You know, Mary Catherine of that time didn't know all the things that were to come. Yeah. And so we have to acknowledge that we did our best at that time. And maybe we did make a mistake, you know. Um, obviously we're gonna make mistakes. Uh, because again, we are human. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah. And it it can be painful to do that, though. Yes. Right. Like looking back on my younger self, college Jamie, who was so focused on making the grades so that she could get into medical school and showing up to practice and working hard. And there was a broken friendship in that season of my life that on the other person's side, I think the feeling was you chose school and track over our friendship. And I do look back and think, maybe she's right. Maybe I wasn't as good of a friend as I could have been. But I'm at a point now in my life where I look back and I think 18-year-old Jamie was doing the best she could. She was doing the best she could for sure with the tools that she had.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

And and that gives us that empathy for other people to be able to forgive other people. Yeah. Like, hey, there was a time when I was blinded by whatever was in front of me and not realizing how that affected other people. That might be happening for this person right now. Yeah. And it doesn't feel great, but I understand what it's like to be on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

And we can look at our own families. Oh, yes. Our own parents. And there's no such thing as a perfect parent. I'm sure not one. Yeah. But I look at my parents and I have to think they did the best they could with what they had. Isn't it amazing? Yes. I mean, they did amazing. They have amazing parents. They both came from broken homes. There was definitely trauma in their childhoods. I know that. Um my dad's dad was an alcoholic. My mom's dad left, just left. And I know they struggled with those issues, not having father figures in their lives. And I know they did the best they could, which was absolutely amazing, right? We also all have limitations. We do. Yes. And so it does help to recognize that and have empathy.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

And I mean I tell my kids all the time, I'm making mistakes. I mean, I apologize to my kids all the time. I tell them, this is my first time parenting teenagers. I don't know what I'm doing. Like I am gonna make mistakes. And there are times when, you know, I have had to apologize because I've made a mistake. But I think that's such a great thing to model for our children.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

You know, we're learning. It is. And that way they recognize that it's okay to mess up. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yes. Yeah. So on the flip side, to recognize those times that we do make a mistake and to apologize, you know, to reach out and say, hey, I realize I made this mistake. Please forgive me. And really have that moment of repair and modeling that forgiveness is huge.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Okay, good. You give us a great outline on how to make this happen. What else do we need to know about forgiveness?

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Well, there's there's so much, but I think that's kind of the biggest um kind of overview. I think just reminding ourselves it's a decision. Necessarily a feeling, so like a lot of other things in life, we think, Oh, I don't feel like forgiving, or I don't feel we could still, it's kind of like love, you know. Love is a decision, it's not really attraction as a feeling. That's great. Love is that decision to care for someone else even when you don't really want to, right? Um, forgiveness is it can be similar. Like I'm deciding to move forward in forgiveness. Um, and I picture it like a dimmer instead of a light switch, you know. I'm moving towards it, I'm working towards it on this journey. Um, and continuing to move forward in that process. I definitely think obviously I'm biased, but I think therapy can be really helpful here when it's a big item, a big um event that you're forgiving yourself or someone else for. That can be helpful just to have someone to talk it out with um who's unbiased and just able to offer that forgiveness to you and help you to see that. I agree. This has been super helpful. Any parting words? Um, I mean, I wish this was an easy thing. It's not. I'm not I'm not meaning to put it out there and say, yeah, just go and choose to forgive people. I know that this is way more um difficult to do uh than just this outline. I mean, I've experienced it personally myself and walked with many people um as clients through it. So I don't want it to come across that way, but hopefully this is just a good little overview to get rid of some of those myths that keep people from starting on a forgiveness journey. It's been wonderful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Great. We hope you will take this with you today, share it with a friend, use it in your own life. Um, we're happy to help, and we're so glad you're here on this journey with us. Join next time. This week, we would like to highlight National Infertility Awareness Week. It's observed every April to highlight that one in six people globally are affected by infertility. Founded by Resolve, the National Infertility Association in 1989, this campaign works to break stigmas, promote equitable access to care, and provide support for those facing fertility challenges.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Thank you for joining us on a journey to whole woman health. If this episode encouraged you, share it with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe so you don't miss future conversations. Remember, your questions matter, your health matters, and wholeness is a journey. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Now for the legal language. The information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical or mental health advice. Listening to this podcast does not establish a doctor patient or therapist client relationship. Always consult your own qualified healthcare provider regarding any medical concerns.