Episode 16: Grief Isn’t Linear- What No One Tells You About Loss

Grief is one of the most universal human experiences—and yet, when you're in it, it can feel completely isolating.

In this episode of A Journey to Whole Woman Health, Dr. Jamie Erwin and Dr. Mary Kathryn Nader explore what grief actually looks like—physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Together, they unpack the myths we’ve been taught about grief, including the idea that it follows a neat timeline or a predictable set of stages.

From miscarriage and infertility to identity shifts, relationship changes, and life transitions, grief shows up in ways many women don’t expect.

You’ll learn:

•  What grief really is (beyond death and loss) 
•  The truth about the “five stages” of grief—and why they’re often misunderstood 
•  How grief shows up in the body (sleep, headaches, gut symptoms) 
•  Why there is no “right way” or timeline for grieving 
•  The concept of duality—holding grief and joy at the same time 
•  Practical ways to support someone who is grieving 
•  The role of faith when you’re walking through loss 

If you’re navigating grief—or walking alongside someone who is—this episode will remind you:

You are not alone.
 You are not doing it wrong.
 And you are allowed to carry both sorrow and strength at the same time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to A Journey to Hold Woman Health, the podcast where science, mental health, and faith come together to educate, empower, and encourage women in every season of life. We are your hosts, Dr. Jamie Irwin, board-certified OBGYN.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

And Dr. Mary Catherine Nader, licensed professional counselor with a PhD in counselor education and supervision. Jamie and I have been friends for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Each week we explore the intersection of body, mind, and soul, bringing you evidence-based medicine, meaningful conversations about mental health, and stories that remind us we're not alone on the journey.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's begin the journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Welcome back to the podcast. Today we're talking about grief. Grief is one of the most universal human experiences, and yet when you're in it, it can feel completely isolating. We tend to think grief follows a neat path, the five stages, a timeline, some kind of resolution. But what if that's not true? What if grief isn't something you move through, but something you learn to carry? Today we're sitting down with Dr. Mary Catherine Nader, my best friend, and we're talking about what grief actually looks like, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, how it shows up in ways you might not even expect, and how to walk through it without losing yourself in the process. We're so glad you're here. We know you're gonna share this with someone who needs to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Mary Catherine, what is grief? I think grief is a multifaceted response that we have to a loss in our lives. Oftentimes we think of grief as the loss of or death of a person, but it's not always just related to death. We can grieve job changes, we can grieve moving, we can grieve a change of, you know, just changing churches, just changing of community. Uh there can be so many things that we can grieve, and uh it's really an important topic to talk about because it's universal. And oftentimes we don't take the time to really pause and recognize that we're grieving something.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

I take care of women every day, as do you, in our practices. As an OBGYN, I also see w women grieving the loss of identity. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Talk about that. I think we women's identities change so much throughout our lifespan, depending on where we are, whether we become mothers or not, where we are in our childbearing years. Um we've talked we've had sessions already, sessions, the therapist and me, we've had episodes where we've talked about grief with some of our guests, which have been really helpful. Um, but just grieving. I I know even I have a high school daughter who you know, grieving her going off to college. She's even talked about grieving just that transition for herself, even though it's exciting. There's some grief there. There's the grief when we uh become moms in a way, because our identity is changing and we are learning a new part of ourselves, but also grieving what was before. Uh, there's obviously grief, like we've talked about with miscarriage and infertility. Um, even grief, if you don't get have that time in your life. There's some women who don't ever get an opportunity to be pregnant, and maybe they wanted to. There's just so many different things that we can grieve as as women.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Grief is any loss of what you thought your life would look like.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yes. That's a great way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Let's talk about the science of grief. I think most people have heard about the five stages. What are those? And is that really how grief?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

I think they're helpful. I think that the five stages are helpful. So Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross uh created these five stages from her research, but she actually did this research with patients who were themselves dying and noticed that these were the different phases that people were going through. So, like terminally ill people? Yes. Okay. And the stages are helpful because they give a word or a definition to those experiences. They normalize it for people. I think when they're not helpful is when they're given as a prescription. Like you should go through these stages and you should go through them in this order. Everybody's grief looks so different. And just because one person's grieving this way doesn't mean that because another person's grieving that way, they're wrong. Uh there's not a right way to grieve. There's not a timeline for grief. And I've sometimes people take the stages and make it into here's how to grieve the right way. Those stages you might have to help me. Um, but I know it's um first denial, I believe, like kind of having a hard time accepting what's happening, and then anger with what's happened, and then is it bargaining bargaining, yes. So trying to and and I do see a lot of people go through that trying to kind of adjust, and and even kids you know, go through bargaining, trying to trying to make it make sense, you know.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Then there's the depression or just the the sadness, and then um there's the acceptance. So again, most people don't go through them all or go through them in that order. It might even s cycle around. We've talked before with forgiveness, that it's more of a process. I see grief as more of a process as well. And maybe you have grieved in one way, but then a new birthday hits and you have to grieve in a new way. So it can just really the the stages are helpful, but I I don't like it when they're used prescriptively. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So not linear necessarily. And you may have to come back and repeat or just really be deep in one of those stages for a while. Right. And allow yourself to to go through it. And I never knew that that her research, Dr. Kubler Ross, her research was done on people who were dying themselves. So I mean, surely a person who knows their life is is over soon is gonna be grieving differently than someone who is grieving the loss of a loved one. Right, right. Or a miscarriage, or uh the end of a a marriage or relationship.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Right. So of course it's gonna be different. Of course it's gonna be different. And I think like we've talked about before in the compassion fatigue episode, not putting our assumptions of what someone's going through. So this person's grieving, it m it should look like this and it doesn't. Or and or they should be grieving their loved one in this way because I grieved my loved one in this way. They had a different relationship with that person, or their job loss means something different to them than when you lost your job. So everyone has a different experience with grief. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

So it may look like these five steps, but what else could it look like? What does it actually look like?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

I think everyone's experience is different. A few of the metaphors that I really love, one is just a big ball of yarn, just all knotted up together, of just all the emotions that we can feel with grief, and how when you start pulling on it, it just is connected to all different things, and giving yourself the time to really untangle it. That's a reason therapy can be helpful. Another um metaphor I've seen is uh just the waves of the ocean, recognizing that we will have waves of grief, and at the beginning it might feel overwhelming, like we can't even stand up, like we're just being knocked over. But eventually we learn to anticipate the waves. It's not that they go away, but we know that they're coming, we feel them, we know we're gonna get through it, and then we feel them pass by. And uh maybe sometimes they're bigger, smaller, maybe they come more closely together sometimes, but just recognizing those waves can be normalizing.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Because just like out at the ocean, there's gonna be rougher days. There's days where those waves are huge.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yes, and sometimes they're unexpected and knock you over, and you're like, where did that even come from? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

But I like how you said it's it's not that the waves are ever gonna stop. Right. And those anniversaries, holidays, would you say those are when the b the waves get bigger?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

They can be difficult for people. Um, and I I always encourage my clients to have a plan. And even if you want to change the plan that day, that's okay. But to talk about it, if you have kids, if you have a family, to talk about it. Hey, the our loved one's anniversary or our loved one's birthday is coming up, what would be special to do instead of ignoring it? We think, well, the kids don't remember that that's they probably do, and they actually think you have forgotten it. I've had I've had kids tell me that before. So really just having the conversation as a family of what do we want this day to look like? And maybe everybody wants or needs something different from the day, but even talking about that can be helpful and just acknowledging it.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

You could all be grieving the same person, but need different things.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Totally different way. I mean, in the same family, I I like to think of it as a carousel, you know, somebody's up while the other one's down, and some people might want to be looking at pictures and somebody else doesn't want to look at any pictures. Somebody else might want to watch videos or talk about the person, somebody uh another person would rather not talk about, but really wants to journal or be by themselves. So every nobody's doing it the wrong way, and being able to just recognize that and be patient with one another that what you're going through is grief. And it's we're all gonna process it differently. How else can it look like? What about numbness? Sure. I mean, it can look like all the kinds of different, and you probably see this with your patients too, um, like feeling numbness. It can look present in the body with headaches, difficulty sleeping, you know, stomach, like we've talked about before, how our stomach processes our emotions. There can be all kinds of things that can present in our body related to grief.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Definitely. I have a lot of women who are grieving, all the things we've already mentioned, but you're right. Um, it's not always the same. So sometimes I have to share the bad news with a patient that it is a miscarriage. There is no heartbeat. And I've really seen the whole gamut. I've I've seen just about every kind of reaction that's possible. The total shock and uh you know, falling apart, emotional, crying, tears. And then I've seen kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. Maybe they've had a miscarriage before, maybe not. I don't I don't think that necessarily helps, especially when we have recurrent pregnancy loss, that is really, really, really tough. And those patient visits need to be handled in a different way. Um but so on on one end of the spectrum, patient really emotionally falling apart, tearful, emotional, just devastation that's being exhibited in that moment, but others somewhat stoic, like I don't want to talk about it, like just very maybe um clinical. Okay, well, what's the next step? Like, what do we need to do now? Let's talk about it. Problem solving. Yes, let's move on. And and so what would you say to me as as the OBGYN? How how do I need to help my patients who have those different representations of grief?

SPEAKER_00 12:02

I think you're doing, I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I think you're doing an amazing job. Uh I think being upfront with them, like we talked about with Kate and like we talked about with uh um other guests before, but just the clear as kind, being honest about what's happened, like we've talked about using the word death, dying, not we lost, or these euphemisms. Um, I think that that's really helpful. And then just listening, just being present. Like we have shared before, there's not a right thing to say. There there's nothing we can say that's really going to be helpful. And really, our presence of just listening and and allowing them to share and being curious of what this is like for them, what are they going through and what did they need can be the most helpful thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Let them be the guide. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Validating them.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah. That's important. So, and anybody can do that. You don't have to be an OBGYN. Right. Taking care of ladies with pregnancy loss, anybody can do that. Validate what stage of grief or or what part of grief they're experiencing. What are some common misconceptions you want to debunk about grief?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

I think the timeline is a big one that people think, well, it's been a year, it's been two years, it's been, okay, this person is is gone and never coming back, they've died. So there's going to be grief there, and that's just not something you forget and that goes away. Uh, I think the the the right way to grieve, that's a a myth as well. Thinking that, am I doing this right? I even have clients who come and they come to me because they say, I want to just make sure that I'm grieving the right way.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

And I always have to just stop and say, you know, that's there's no such thing. Uh it's we want to grieve in a healthy way. Okay. We want to validate, we want to recognize what we're feeling and what we're going through. And and similar to the forgiveness, the first part, just naming what are we grieving? What is it that we're missing? And it, yes, it's maybe a person if it's a death loss, but specifically right now, what am I grieving that I miss about that person? That can be helpful. Uh, oftentimes people ask uh what they should say, and I always just tell them to listen, ask, ask questions about the person who died. Often people don't hear that name very often and they want to hear the name. They want people to uh talk about them, ask about them, acknowledge anniversaries, acknowledge those kinds. We think that we're gonna say it wrong or do something wrong, but often just simple little things of I'm thinking of you, I know it's the anniversary today, I'd love to take you to lunch, or you know, you send them flowers or a card, just something that says, I remember, and I'm here with you.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

I like to encourage my patient's partner that when the due date comes around That's huge, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:00

When there's been a miscarriage, yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

When there's been a miscarriage, that due date is still in that woman's brain forever, forever, probably. Like we talked about the beginning, it was an expectation that is not being fulfilled. Correct. And I really try to encourage that partner because they may be blindsided, they may not be tracking that at all. And no fault to them, right? But that partner may not be tracking that pregnancy's due date, that pregnancy that didn't come to fruition. Yes. And just be aware. Be aware this patient, she may have a hard time on that date or as that date approaches, as that month approaches. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

So And for friends too, who know about their friend who had a miscarriage and knew the due date, to just be aware of that because similar to what we talked about earlier, when we don't acknowledge it, that person feels like you have forgotten and you think you're that you don't want to say anything to make them sad. I think that's a good misconception or often a misconception that we think we're making that person sad. They're already sad. We're not making them sad by bringing that up that loss, that the death of this person, or no, they're thinking about it. I call it grief brain. It's kind of like pregnancy brain. It's like a part of your brain is just always thinking about that, even when you're not consciously thinking about it. So when we mention it, we're acknowledging to them, hey, I remember and I'm here, and not saying, here's what you should do, but just saying, I'm I'm I'm here with you and I remember. I'm here with you. What about this misconception? Staying busy helps. I think for some people, it depends how you define helps. Maybe it makes you not think about it, and maybe that's what we need sometimes, you know. Maybe it makes you um like not feel the emotions. And I denial is not always a bad thing. Denial that first stage where we're not right. I tell people sometimes your body just isn't ready or not able to handle all the things that you're feeling or that you've gone through. And so we look for these other outlets, and that's okay, maybe for a little bit. Like give yourself some grace, some distractions. Yeah. But at the same time, also give yourself that time to come back and acknowledge it. I think Kate mentioned it in one of the earlier episodes about how a few years later, feeling the things, I see that a lot. But it's been three years. Okay, well, what's what's different now than three years ago? Well, I'm in a healthier relationship and my I really like my job, and blah, blah. Okay, so you are in a safe place. Your body knows you're in a safe place, and now you're able to deal with and process those things that have been in there the whole time, and you just haven't dealt with them yet.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Interesting. You've regulated your nervous system, so now you're able to hear from your body these emotions that have been in your body the whole time, but just now that you're safe, you're able to hear.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yes, and you're able to do something about it. Wow. So I always encourage them for you're not late coming to the party to to talk about this hard thing. You are listening to your body and you're doing what you need to do. But sometimes staying busy, if if you know you're staying busy just to avoid it, that that's something that you want to work on. And and maybe again talk to a therapist. Of course, I'm biased on that one, but it can be helpful. Any other ways that are unhealthy to approach grief? I mean, definitely we try to escape, you know, there's always all kinds of addictions. A lot of times that can be linked to some sort of a loss, a grief loss or other sort of loss, death loss. Um, but addictions can can really so if you notice yourself turning to drugs, alcohol, pornography, you know, anything that food, yes, any sort of other thing, um, just recognize that. Like, hey, I wonder if this is a way that I'm kind of escaping these feelings that I'm having, this grief that I'm having. And that can be a good indicator that I need to get some help because I'm turning to this other thing. How can I, what can I turn to that could be a little healthier for me and help me to process through this? Because it's it is it's grief is so common, but it can be really helpful. I I think a lot of times the reason people don't process or talk about they don't want to burden other people. And that's a another reason, first of all, mm your friends want to hear it. But second of all, if you really feel that way, that's another reason therapy can be so helpful because this is a safe space for you to say all the things. Um, sometimes, you know, if it was a child loss, there might be things that you wish you could say to your husband, but you just can't. Um, and a therapist can be a safe place to say those things. Um, I know we've talked about the warm place before, which is a place I previously worked. It's a great resource in Fort Worth for families who have had a death loss, provides free nonprofit um uh support groups, but that just having a group like that where you can have a safe space to share what you're going through can make a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

So the numbing and the avoidance, they happen, but they aren't failures. You're just trying to attempt to survive something that's really overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yes. Another great um uh metaphor I've heard is it's like a shipwreck, you know. Everybody's trying to get to shore the best that they can. So somebody might be able, a good swimmer be able to swim, someone else might be holding on to a piece of driftwood, you know, someone else might have been able to make a raft, like in a family or just in any sort of a loss, we're all getting to shore. And sometimes that denial at the beginning could be a way that you're kind it's kind of helping you, but you need to also look for how will I sustain this long term? That's important.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Teach us about the duality of grief. Okay. What does that mean? I I don't know. What is it? Well, what does it say?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yes. Yes, having two different emotions at the same time. I like that word, duality. I I think of it as uh for kids, and I think of a snow cone or or like an ice cream cone, you know, one cone, and then having different flavors, scoops of ice cream on top. We can feel sad when we remember the person, but also joy of, oh, that was such a fun memory, and guilt that, oh, I wish I would have said XYZ. I think guilt is an emotion that people don't talk about as much, but it's really common with grief. So we can have lots of different emotions at the same time about the same memory or about that same person or the same loss, whether if it's a job loss or relationship loss or something else. So recognizing it and a lot of times just acknowledging and naming each emotion that we're having.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

What about other things that are helpful? You've mentioned naming, you've mentioned therapy. Um anything else that you tell your your clients?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

I think finding uh like we said, the healthy support group or just a safe therapy, but then just safe people you can talk to to process. I think any sort of education on grief just can be helpful. Reading a good book on grief, uh, there's lots of articles online, just anything that helps normalize what the grief process is like so that you don't think you're going crazy or something's wrong with you, and just recognizing I am grieving.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

I know a lot of faith communities, our church included, offers grief counseling, weekly meetings. So speak to how our faith comes along in grief.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Where is God in grief? Yes. I think God is beside us, you know, as we grieve. I think that it might not feel that way. I I know all of my clients' patients have shared different stories with their faith journey when they've had these really difficult experiences and um painful deaths, losses, or other kinds of losses. For some people, they feel really connected and drawn closer in the relationship to God. For other people, they feel this kind of wilderness experience. Um, I don't think one is right or I mean, obviously it's just everyone's experience is different, but to just continue to question, you know, even if you're struggling, that's still a relationship to continue to pursue and be patient, um, I think is can be really helpful. I mean, the Psalms are full of David really crying out to God, like, how could you let this happen? Where are you? And that isn't, I mean, that's been going on for so long. Job. Job is the oldest book in the Bible, and it's basically a book about grief. So really recognizing the scriptures talk about grief a lot. It is a common human experience. And God is there with us. It just looks different for for each of us how we experience it.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

And even as believers, we're not we're not promised a life free of suffering. There will be suffering.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

We're promised suffering. In this world, you will have trouble.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yep. That's what Jesus tells us. Yes. And it's easy just, you know, to experience such a loss and think, how can this be? How where is God in this? How how could God let this happen? And I try, you know, to counsel friends and and if the opportunity arises and faith comes into a conversation with patients, I will often say, you know, we live in a broken world. And these terrible things like miscarriage and cancer and even death, it was never God's design. From the beginning, we weren't supposed to experience these things, and that is part of why it hurts so bad. It's so foreign to us because it was never God's design. But because we live in this broken, fallen world, we feel these things that are so hurtful to our innermost being deep in our souls. But it's not that God is allowing these horrible things to happen. Yes, he's immutable, he doesn't change, he's he's sovereign, he's in control, but he mourns with us, he grieves with us. These things that break our hearts, they break God's heart, too. Yes, for sure. And he does mourn with us, and he is grieving with us, and he never leaves us.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

That's right. Yeah, another promise. I will never leave you or forsake you. Yes. So grief can actually be an opportunity to deepen our faith. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:47

I've had I've had people tell me that that was their experience, that they had their closest, you know, um that they just grew so much in their faith during during that. But I hesitate to say that because that's not everyone's experience. You know, everyone has a different experience with it.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Summarize for us how we can help someone in our life that is grieving.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I think being present for them, uh remembering the anniversaries like we've talked about, our birthdays, or um, if it's a different kind of a loss, just acknowledging it, asking if that you can take them to lunch or giving them a phone call and just saying, hey, how how's it going dealing with XYZ? How are you doing? And just giving them space to talk. Um, you don't have to say, don't at least them, you know, well, at least you still have this, or at least you don't do that. That's very minimizing. You know, don't say compare it to yourself. Um, well, my dog died one time when they've had some sort of a death loss in their family. No. Um, just listen. Just ask, how are you doing, and just let them talk. And if they don't want to talk, that's okay too. Say just saying, I'm here when you need me.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

You don't need the right words, just a willing presence. That's really beautiful. Yeah, that's great. This has been so helpful. Yay. We all can share this with someone that needs to hear it right now, and we hope you'll do just that. If you're walking through grief right now, we want you to know you're not behind, you're not doing it wrong, and you're not alone. Grief is not something to fix, it's something to be held. And over time, as you learn to carry it, you may find that it softens, not because the loss mattered less, but because you've grown strong enough to hold it. Join us next time.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Thank you for joining us on a journey to whole woman health. If this episode encouraged you, share it with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe so you don't miss future conversations. Remember, your questions matter, your health matters, and wholeness is a journey. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Now for the legal language. The information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical or mental health advice. Listening to this podcast does not establish a doctor patient or therapist client relationship. Always consult your own qualified healthcare provider regarding any medical concerns.