Episode 24: Breastfeeding Without the Pressure-What Every New Mom Needs to Know

Should breastfeeding hurt? Is formula really "failing"? What actually matters most during those overwhelming first days with a newborn?

In this episode of A Journey to Whole Woman Health, Dr. Jamie Erwin and Dr. Mary Kathryn Nader welcome board-certified pediatrician and newborn hospitalist Dr. Erin Eastman for an honest, compassionate conversation every new parent needs to hear.

Together, they unpack what really happens during the first 48 hours after birth—from the "Golden Hour" to cluster feeding—and explain why so many mothers feel intense pressure to breastfeed perfectly.

More importantly, they challenge the idea that successful motherhood is measured in ounces of milk.

This episode explores:

• What happens during the Golden Hour after delivery
• Why skin-to-skin contact benefits both babies and fathers
• The normal newborn feeding timeline
• Cluster feeding explained
• Common breastfeeding challenges
• Risk factors for low milk supply
• When supplementation may actually be the healthiest choice
• How birth expectations affect postpartum mental health
• Why bonding matters more than perfection
• How to recognize postpartum struggles in both mothers and fathers

Whether you're expecting your first baby, supporting someone who is, or simply want evidence-based reassurance, this episode offers practical guidance, grace, and freedom.

Because healthy families aren't built on perfection.

They're built on connection.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to A Journey to Whole Woman Health, the podcast where science, mental health, and faith come together to educate, empower, and encourage women in every season of life. We are your hosts, Dr. Jamie Irwin, board-certified OBGYN.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

And Dr. Mary Catherine Nader, licensed professional counselor with a PhD in counselor education and supervision. Jamie and I have been friends for over 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Each week we explore the intersection of body, mind, and soul, bringing you evidence-based medicine, meaningful conversations about mental health, and stories that remind us we're not alone on the journey. So take a deep breath, settle in, and let's begin the journey.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Okay, welcome back. Today we are so excited to welcome probably my first friend ever, because she's my cousin. We've literally known each other our whole lives, Dr. Erin Eastman to the podcast. So excited for this. Dr. Eastman is a board-certified pediatrician and pediatric hospitalist practicing in Denver, Colorado. She earned her medical degree from University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio and completed her pediatric residency at UT Southwestern Medical Center before moving to Colorado to care for children and families. She's passionate about pediatric and newborn medicine, helping children thrive from their very first days. We are so excited to have you here, Erin. Thank you for making time to be here with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, this is a treat, Erin. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Thanks for having me. I've been listening to the podcast and I just love it.

unknown 1:37

Yay!

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah we're honored that you're listening. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

Yes. Um and you're a mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I am a mom. Yes. I have two beautiful little girls. They're 11 and 12. Um, Katie is 12, Lizzie's 11. So we're in the throes of that preteen tween stage. My free time, I try to stay on top of the lingo.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, it's hard to keep up with. All of us do. We do. We do. Well, we're glad you're here. Listeners, we know you're gonna want to share this with um maybe an expectant mom, um, maybe a mom who just delivered, maybe your daughter. We know not all of our listeners are moms themselves, or perhaps they're past that season. But surely there's someone you can share this with.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Aaron is gonna be helpful with how to support those people in your lives who are in this stage of ha having a baby or pregnant. And for all of our new moms, our pregnant moms out here, this we're really gonna hope this is helpful for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yes. So as a pediatric hospitalist, you see these families, these moms, these babies, you take care of them immediately after birth. As an OBGYN, I get to hand off to you. I get to get this baby into the world, everything's great. And then, you know, I I kind of like washing my hands of it and be like, all right, my job, my job is done. This baby is alive and well and thriving. And now I get to pass that baton to you. So um we just know you're gonna impart a lot of wisdom that you share with your patients every day. But what can our listeners expect uh from this episode? What wisdom do you hope they walk away with?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Well, we can talk through some reasons why, but I think one trend I've seen in the past 20 years during my career has been um just a real pressure that women put on themselves to breastfeed and some of um the risks that come with a more dogmatic approach. So if you uh take away one thing from this podcast, it would be please just kind of approach breastfeeding as a bonding tool primarily. Um, and if we emphasize bonding with your baby, liking your baby, enjoying your baby, then I think it can put breastfeeding in its proper place.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

That's awesome. And you're working toward your lactation consultant certification, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Yes. So I had to look up what I can technically call myself. So because of the hours I've completed online and the hours I've done clinically, I am a certified breastfeeding specialist. Okay. Um, but I I won't have my full credentials until I pass an examination in September. Um, and then I will have my uh IBCLC, which is International Board Certified Lactation Consultant uh letters I can put by my name.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

So when some people are listening to this, you might already be at that point. So that's that's fantastic. Yeah, congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well done.

unknown 4:38

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Well, let's get into it. You have I mean, you really are that first line of information and guidance and direction after the OBGYN has delivered their baby. So talk us through that. What do those interactions look like and how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Um, so you know, I I view my role in that just narrow window of time as being just one person along the spectrum of people who are allowed into this very intimate space. Most women are exhausted, vulnerable, um, sometimes defeated, sometimes surprised or disappointed by maybe how delivery went, but it's a really tender space and it's a space that I just view uh as really sacred. Um and getting to be a human that gets to stand in that space with a woman and um and her supportive network is really special to me. So so yeah, I um I usually will in the first 24 hours I'll see babies um, you know, anywhere from like one to two hours old to, you know, 14, 15, 19 hours old for the very first time. And just to kind of walk you through the way I approach that, I usually spend a fair amount of time in a mother's chart reading through what the delivery looked like on paper, um, what led her to the hospital, how labor progressed, um, all kinds of things like um, you know, we do a lot of labs during pregnancy, so reviewing all of her lab work, looking for risk factors for um difficulty breastfeeding in the medical world. We would call that delayed lactogenesis. Um looking for risk factors for that. Um, so I can have a really honest and supportive conversation with a family. Um and then I'll go and see the family. Um, in most of the hospitals where I work, there's a protected time period as long as families are healthy moms or healthy babies are healthy. Um we call it the golden hour, and it's an ideal time for skin-to-skin contact as long as everybody is doing well. So I try to respect that. But after the golden hour, um, I'll just kind of ask, how is everybody doing? Um, I'm sure both of you are aware as experts in your fields that what we get to read on paper and what's communicated to me medically is sometimes different than the patient experience. So if there has been an unplanned C-section, even if it was perfect and the baby's abgars are 10, which never happens, and everything just looks great, I'll usually ask families, how did that go? How's everybody doing in here? And you know, the response is varied, but sometimes there's a little bit of shock and a little bit of unpacking to do with that. Um, so I'll hold some space for for families. Um, I'd say, you know, 30% of families are like, you know, it's great. It was a little scary, but the baby came out fine. But then there's some degree of, oh, that was kind of a lot. We're still processing that. And I'll usually encourage families that even have a twinge of that to talk to someone like you about unpacking, making sure we don't have some PTSD symptoms down the road, waking up in the middle of the night, um, feeling like you're the only one that can hold the baby, some intrusive thoughts, you know, those kinds of things. If I say it out loud, families can be prepared for that. Right, that's so great. Um, but then we really will after a thorough exam of the baby and checking in on the family's experience, then I kind of jump into breastfeeding. So most lactation consultants in the hospital will not see uh moms and babies until they're 24 hours old. And the main reason for that is babies go through a big sleepy period. So after the first two hours where baby's adrenaline levels are high and they're alert, they're engaged, they usually have one really good breastfeeding session, 20 minutes long, 40 minutes long. I usually will use that as a benchmark to where we're going back to. You know, if the baby does really well, then hey, we can expect we're headed back to that level of of function. Um but after that period, there's often a 15 to 24 hour just sleepy period. And babies are out and they do not want to be um woken up. A lot of times I'll describe this as saying, you know, baby's sleep levels are really high right now. And even though their food level needs, their their sleep needs and their food needs are both high, sleep is gonna win at first. So I'll often prepare moms in that time period. He may latch on and breastfeed really well for like five minutes, eight minutes, and then his whole body is gonna go limp. And that is totally normal. And every mom is gonna have different expectations. Some women are gonna decide, well, I've got an easy baby. This is awesome. This is how this is gonna be. And I'll be like, I hate to break it to you. This is short-lived. Um, don't get too excited. Moms are like, there's no way this is enough. There's no way I'm making enough. And so trying to kind of adjust the advice based on mom's level of expectation is part of what I do. Um, and then, you know, after that 15 to 24 hour period, most babies will go through a period of cluster feeding. And so cluster feeding is where they're awake, they have slept, cortisol levels are back down again, and they are like their cry will change, the pitch in their cry.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Um, the this might be when they're getting home and they're like, Oh my god, if the baby slept still great in the hospital, what's wrong?

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yes. And so I'll usually have a conversation. Um, I don't like to let primate babies, primate meaning this is your your first-time mom and it's your first baby. I really don't like to let you go home at the 24-hour mark because I don't know that you have a good gauge of what's coming. So I love to, as long as they're comfortable in their hospital bed and they're not going crazy. Um, I'd love to encourage first-time moms to stay that second night to get a little extra lactation support, a little extra hands-on support for when that cluster feeding period hits. So um, yeah, cluster feeding can be stressful. It can be um, we can see breastfeeding difficulties really manifest during that time period. Um, and so I'll usually try to prepare families for what to expect, you know. Um, sometimes I'm not really a surfer. I have tried to surf a couple times. I'm not very successful. Um, but I'll describe it as hey, waves of of hunger are gonna come. And we have no control over that. Baby's just hungry, and you can get off the surfboard at any moment. So um, usually I'm seeing a mom at the 15th or 16th hour, and the moms that I spent the most time encouraging are ones who delivered between like midnight and six because I know it's gonna be a long second night. Right. So I'll usually say, Hey, I want you to breastfeed as much as you can, um, put the baby to the breast. We'll usually talk about ways to re-engage a sleepy baby. You can hand express a few drops, and usually a baby will remember what they're doing and kind of latch on again. Um, but as we hit that cluster feeding period, the latch becomes really important and um it's easy for women to allow some damage to be done to their nipples. So it's kind of the first opportunity we have as mothers to say, well, we're not gonna do it that way. We're gonna redirect, unlatch the baby, put the baby back on. Sometimes adjusting position can help. Um, but just I like to prepare women for, hey, be assertive about with your baby about that latch is really painful. And I think that can be a metaphor going into motherhood of boundaries with your baby and boundaries around breastfeeding, saying that's really gonna be painful. And if I don't stop that latch right now and relatch, then um that'll cause some nipple damage. And then we need to do nipple rest, and that's really stressful for mom and baby.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

So I've never heard it presented that way, having boundaries even with your newborn. That's so interesting. I want you to go back to the golden hour and let's let's retrace our steps a little bit. And some women may not know what that is. So talk about that. What is it? What is the skin to skin? Yeah, we hear this, why is it important? What's actually happening to the baby and the mom during that golden hour?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

So the the biggest thing that's special about the golden hour is just the alertness level of mom and baby. It's before the crash that we see after birth of everybody just kind of falling into some exhaustion. So, because the baby is so alert, um, they're in a state where they're ready to learn. Um, they're taking in new information like crazy, oxytocin levels are high, and there's a real opportunity for bonding. So there are some good studies out there on lots and lots of studies on skin to skin contact with mothers. But as we know, following C-section, that can be a real challenge to get a baby kind of nestled in. So there are actually really good studies also on skin to skin contact with fathers. And um again, just kind of metaphor for moving out into the world as a family. Um, there are studies that show there's some smaller studies that I have references for that show that 45 minutes of skin to skin time between a baby and a father. So um I'm gonna pause us here because this might sound weird to some fathers. This is, you know, keep in mind this is from your crunchy Colorado transplant. But we'll ask dads to wear a button-down shirt. And this means the baby is naked and just has a diaper on, and we're gonna fit that baby right onto your chest and have that baby just nestle in. And, you know, for a long time we knew this was good for babies. There are great studies that look at stabilizing their heart rate, maintaining their temperature, keeping their temperature elevated. Um, it can even change how much they cry, it can change how well they breastfeed, just maintaining some skin-to-skin contact. It's very grounding for them. But one of the more interesting findings that's been more recent is that it's also really beneficial for fathers. Wow. Um, I there is one really small study that looks at cortisol levels. Cortisol is our stress hormone in fathers before and after the skin-to-skin time with their baby. And cortisol levels fall pretty dramatically after 30 minutes of time with their baby. And I can't invent a medication that works that well. Right. Um, so for fathers, it is really meaningful to have a baby snuggled into their chest. Um, and another chemical that's interesting in that is oxytocin, the bonding hormone. So I've talked about that a couple of times. Um, oxytocin levels rise in both mom and baby when we have a baby on our chest. Interestingly, they tend to fall after we take the baby away from us. But in fathers, after prolonged skin-to-skin time, they actually remain elevated.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

And that's something that continues throughout childhood. Fathers who engage in direct physical contact with their children get a bigger rise in their oxytocin levels than fathers who don't. So it's, you know, the the stereotype of dads being sort of rough and tumble with their kids is there for a reason because it's part of the way that they bond and they connect. So when we look at fathers who get that skin-to-skin time, um, the overall paternal bonding that happens is something that is lasting and leads to fathers being more engaged in helping change diapers, being more engaged in tasks related to the baby, and promotes uh a sense of just well-being in them.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

I love that too. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

I think it's really helpful to hear it's good for baby and it's good for dad. Yes. For for that, for you to not be the one totally caring for them.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

And even in C-sections, I know at our hospital, we really do try, you know, to get that baby. It's possible. So I would encourage listeners, ask your provider, ask the anesthesiologist who's there with you. If you are having a C-section, a lot of times it is possible that skin to skin can happen even in the operating room while the physician is closing you and finishing up your cesarean section. And I think that really does help. I I think I think some women feel less than. Would you agree if they have a C-section, that somehow it's it's not enough or they didn't experience birth enough.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I've had a lot of women that I've had to process through, especially some sort of a C-section, or that they feel like my body failed me. I should, should have, we should ourselves a lot been able to have this experience, or I had this birth experience planned out. And we've talked about this before on the podcast. Um, and then they just have, like you mentioned, Erin, this sense of like disappointment or failure. Um, it can be traumatic. It can. So recognizing like the goal here is healthy mom, healthy baby. Everybody is okay. That's the big picture. Yes. Or is there anything y'all would add to that being there in the hospital?

SPEAKER_02 17:27

The other thing I'd add is the number of families I see. So where I see it come out is the second C-section. So the planned C-section with your second baby, it's actually the number of dads who say, Oh my gosh, that was so much better. Yeah. And more conversations I've had, dads feel a sense of just um helplessness. Because here they're watching, if it's an emergency C-section, they're watching something going on with, you know, their wife and their baby, and there's not much they can do. Right. Um, so I've really strongly encourage uh dads, especially, um, if I get even the smallest sense of sort of um just struggle, because that's a risk for you know, we know postpartum depression can happen in men as well. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

One out of ten, I think, dads can experience postpartum. And and having that trauma is it affects both moms and dads. I mean, if you start this experience this way, um, and it's important to process through that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

How does postpartum depression look in men and how does it look different than in women?

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I think similar in that it's they're withdrawn. Um it can be more work, like it can be finding yourself, you know, playing video games more, like find being at the office later, like not engaging with the baby, um, feeling depression look can look different. Um, but that that sense of um uh disconnection can be an issue.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Okay. So you're saying the skin to skin skin to skin can be protective. I would love to do a study on that. Yeah. I don't know that it's been looked at. And the skin to skin even after you go home, is that recommended? Like of course in the delivery room, but you're saying even after you're home, having those moments at home, skin to skin, dad and baby.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Without being, I mean, I don't know that that has been studied as well. Um, but you know, I think it makes sense that that skin to skin contact with toddlers and babies, if that's truly gonna result in higher oxytocin levels, then that interim period that maybe we haven't studied, it's probably helpful also. I call it um ESPN time. And so I'll usually with my Denver families, I'll categorize, you know, golf is fine. If you're a hockey fan in Denver, the Aves, the Avalanche, we're all really big hockey fans. So this is not an Aves watching activity because you can't jump up and scream, and maybe not the Broncos, maybe not the Cowboys, but we all know there's sports where you can, you know, you can kind of just like golf clubs. So those it's great time. Lay on the couch, get that baby on your chest. Um, and it's it can be you're doing work and you're doing really meaningful bonding. And I think there there's just a lot of metaphors for how we could approach these first 48 hours that can carry into how we can approach parenthood in general of enjoying it. And it's okay to rest, and it's okay to enjoy your baby and like the snuggles are fine. They're you know, it's it's doing good work. You can be resting and working at the same time, which is metaphors for sports, as we know. Um but I think that's something that I've really leaned into as a pediatrician is supporting that and equipping people to it's okay to rest.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Let's talk about the breastfeeding stuff. I know you mentioned that before. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

So, and you did mention some risk factors for having trouble breastfeeding. Let's talk about those. What are you looking for when you're digging through that patient's chart?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

So, um, as you know, there are there is a trend in um there is an increased risk or an increase every year in the age at your first-time pregnancy. So we've seen a pretty dramatic increase over the last 20 to 30 years. Um, I looked up some studies on this because I was like, Jamie's gonna confirm. Tell us. But it has it sort of anecdotally, it's felt like most of my first-time moms are in their 30s. So I agree with that. I think I pulled up a national vital statistic article that looked at 2016 to 2023, and the mean age, or the I should say the average age is a slightly different number. The average age of first-time pregnancy was 26.6, and now it's 27.5, and that's in 2023. Some other studies showed that the highest mean age in the early 2020s in Italy was it was as high as 32. Wow. Um US uh closer to 29. So picking like the middle number, not the average of all the numbers. And I tend to see, tell me if you feel like this is true, there's a sort of a cluster around 24 to 28. And then there's a big group of women where it's like 31 to 34 first time pregnancy. And I feel like this age we've set of 35 being elderly prima gravida. Um, there's this like I gotta have a baby before before 35. Yeah as long as I say I have my first baby before 35, there's a little bit of a rush. Um I see that too. You see that?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yes. So let's talk. And patients ask me about that a lot, right? Like, so I'm turning 35 next year. What does that mean if I have a baby? And how does that change? And do I have to go see the high-risk OB doctor? And and so I'd love to just uncover that and unpack that. Why is that a thing? Why is 35, like, did they just magically pull that number out of the air? And what Dr. Eastman um referenced is this diagnosis, elderly prima gravida or multigravida. So gravid meaning pregnant, primi meaning it's your first, multi, that you've been pregnant more than once. So really, I explained that it's twofold. Um, why 35 and beyond is a higher risk pregnancy. First and foremost, we know that egg quality dramatically drops off after age 35. Before age 35, year by year, it's a steady increase in the number of abnormal eggs. Because remember, we're born with all the eggs that we will ever have. We do not make more. Men are different in this regard. They're they're continuously making new sperm their whole life. Women, we get what we get and we lose them all the time. And so by age 30, we only have 10% of our eggs left.

unknown 23:28

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

And so, and what's left is just not as good quality compared to when we were 18 or 20 or 22. That's just time. That's just environmental factors, that's processes getting messy and sticky when it comes to the cell division and the meiosis and mitosis, if everybody remembers from high school biology. So the egg quality after age 35 just really takes a steeper downward turn. And so you have more abnormal eggs, therefore, you are more likely to have a miscarriage or to have a baby that has a chromosomal change. That's why Down syndrome is more common in elderly women. Then the second part of that is as we age, pregnant or not, we're more likely to have medical conditions like diabetes, like hypertension. These are age-related comorbidities, therefore, they are going to show up more frequently in pregnancy as well as outside of pregnancy. So those are really the two parts of that. Um, geriatric pregnancy is another term that gets thrown out there, which just is absolutely horrible. And I feel like a man came up with that. And it gives me connotations of like a woman on a walker coming in with her pregnant belly into my office. And that's just not true.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

So can you change that, Jane?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah, girl. I wish I could. I wish I could. But um so, yes, I see it. And and and it's it's wonderful. I I think it's it's a different approach. I I want to hear from you how I approach a young 20-something having a baby versus um a mom who's maybe late 30s or even early 40s having her first baby. So talk about your experience and how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Well, um, so one of the things we know about breastfeeding is you make more milk when you're young. And with every year, I've had to write this term down because I don't use this with my patients. Um, but there is a an age-related involution of terminal duct lobular units. Basically, we are making, we we have the capacity um to make the most milk when we're in our teens and 20s. And we will joke frequently when I'm talking to my lactation consultant colleagues that, oh, she's 18, she's pouring milk and it's 12 hours out. You know, this is this is this is just a fact. Um, there are absolutely benefits to being an older uh mother, um, but milk production is not one of them. So it's a risk factor I look for. Um there are other comorbidities you've already mentioned, obesity, hypertension, um, diabetes, meta there's certain medical conditions that make me worry about that term we used earlier, that delayed lactogenesis or the inability to um produce enough milk to feed your baby. And um I'm gonna read the chart and look for that and then tailor my conversation to approach that. So we'll some women with some of those risk factors, other risk factors are delivery related. So if you had a C-section, if you had a postpartum hemorrhage, um, if that means if you lost a lot of blood, um if you were separated from your baby from a met for medical reasons for the first 24 hours of after delivery and you weren't able to initiate breastfeeding, there are things that just place you at higher risk of not making much milk. So we'll tailor our conversations to adapt to that. And that's kind of where I would would like to get us to just conversationally is one of the most important things that I feel like God put me on this earth to communicate to my families is to prioritize bonding. So we are gonna do everything we can as pediatricians, as lactation consultants, as nurses, family members to support women who want to breastfeed because breast milk is absolutely beneficial. It is a little bit better than formula, but not a ton. It is a little bit better than formula, but it is only a good nutritional tool if first it's a really good bonding tool. And one of the things that I really want every family I take care of to leave the hospital knowing is that we want to support the entire family. And babies thrive when they are loved, when they're held, when you enjoy feeding them. And enjoying feeding is a part of a precedent you want to set for their whole lives. Um, we know that babies who are fed in in stressful situations or who are fed sort of under duress, babies who need to spend more time in the NICU, or feeding is painful for them, we know that that's not good for them long term. So for me, the the approach to feeding starts with a holistic focus on family enjoyment. Um, so to the extent that we can encourage our women to uh again troubleshoot your latch. Um, one of the most uh common causes we see of decreased milk production is just not a great latch. So if you are having a painful latch, especially in the first 24 hours, um aggressively seek help. Hit that call light in the middle of the night. That is why we are here. We are paid to work. If you're in the room with a pediatrician who's knowledgeable about lactation, ask for help. Um if the lactation consultant offers to come back later in the afternoon and she comes by early in the morning, call her or him. There's some male lactation consultants out there. Um but I if there's one thing I could encourage you to do is work hard, not just at making milk, but work hard at enjoying breastfeeding because that is um that's what it's designed for. It is designed to make motherhood easier, not harder. Um, and if you find yourself weeks and months down the road working crying up, you know, every one to two hours in the middle of the night, um I would encourage you to re-evaluate your relationship with breastfeeding, because your relationship with your baby should be more important than your relationship with your success at breastfeeding. Um there's a lot more I could say on that, but um, I just I think there's a a special population of women out there who are hardworking, high-achieving women, high achieving in lots of different senses. Maybe they are um excellent mothers who are um defining themselves by certain metrics inside their home. There might be women who are defining themselves by metrics outside of their home. But if there's one thing I could communicate to those women is if you're gonna overachieve, because that's your personality type, try to place bonding and um just belonging within your family in a higher position than a dogmatic way that you're gonna successfully feed your baby. Um, one thing I say to every family is you know, this little boy, we want him to call you in the middle of the night if he's at a party that he's not supposed to be at and he's 16 or 18 or 20. We want him to come home for Thanksgiving. We want him to enjoy feeding his family and enjoy being fed by his family. And that all starts with sort of a measured approach to breastfeeding. We, all of us who are in this lactation world, we've got lots of tricks up our sleeve for how to help you make more milk, how to get that latch more comfortable. But I, the the mothers that I have the most difficulty connecting with seem to have sort of a pre-established approach of I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do it well no matter what it costs me. And I think that's one of the more dangerous approaches to breastfeeding that we can have.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

I think that's so good. I think it goes back to the failure. I think a lot of women feel like if I can't breastfeed, I'm failing, or my body's failing me. And and instead, like you're describing, having the bigger picture of what's the goal here? The goal is for my baby to get the nutrition that they need. They're all gonna end up eating goldfish off the minivan floor. Yes, I love that quote. You know, like it's just what, and so I I feel like if you're if you if breastfeeding doesn't work for you, your mental health is more important. I've had this conversation with so many moms who are struggling because they're not getting sleep, they're they're in pain, they're the only one they feel like can feed baby. And um I I I mean, at the extreme case, I'm like, hey, listen, if you're suicidal and you kill yourself because you're so stressed out and overwhelmed and not getting sleep because you feel like you have to breastfeed, that's actually not better for your baby.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

No, yeah, that's actually really bad. And there are cases like that. There are absolutely when they literally are almost killing themselves over this, just trying and trying and trying and just hitting a wall. I I am curious and wonder if there's something genetic in us um that is a gene for a milk producer. And that if if as we age, maybe through epigenetics or what have you, that gets dialed down and we just don't, because you know, evolutionarily, like f and physiologically, we start menstruating at age 12. Yes, right. Totally. Not that we need to be having babies in this day and age at age 12. That is not what I'm saying. But our lifespan used to be what, 50? Yep, you know, and then and then we would die. A saber-toothed tiger would eat us or whatever. Yeah, right. And so our bodies were like, yeah, well, we're we're way past that, you know, lactation phase. So we're just gonna dial that down genetically. I also want to add, I I think when when I hear you say that, like these high achieving women, and I'm gonna win breastfeeding and I'm gonna do everything.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

I'm gonna get this many ounces. We look for these measurable tasks.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

This many hours, I'm gonna stay connected to this machine, even if it's killing me. And I've I know that I tapped into that. I know I did. Yeah, but I also think if we back that up even further, yeah, we get into the birth plan.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yes. Okay, totally.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

And like, I'm gonna win delivery, I'm gonna do it unmedicated. Which great. I had an unmedicated delivery. It and it was great. The stars aligned, God shined down his favor on the whole day. Like it was, it was really great. But I just think we have to have open hands, open hearts, open minds when we are approaching things like childbirth, like breastfeeding, yeah, that we think because they're quote, and I've got my little quotes here, my ear quotes, natural. Yeah, that somehow means it it should be easy or not hard or not or not complicated. So do you see that similarity though? Do you see what I'm saying? Like the birth plan. Like, I I really like to encourage women to have birth preferences. Like, yeah, that's great. If you prefer to not be induced, if you prefer to not have an epidural, awesome. But things could change. Right. And I remember when you were pregnant with Lydia, Mary Catherine, I remember asking you. And she was born on my birthday. Yes. So I feel special bond to Lydia. Um, but I remember asking you, like, hey, I mean, what do you are you gonna get an epidural? And and I like it was so impactful. Even I think about it even to this day, as an OBGYN. You were like, you know what? I've never done this before. Yeah. How should how should I get a big one? I'm gonna be happy. If it hurts bad, you betcha I'm gonna get an epidural.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

So wise, even when she was like 20. She was born wise.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

She was again firstborn, you two are firstborn daughters.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Like, no, I'm like second-tier firstborn. I feel like I just like inherit so much wisdom from her cat.

unknown 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

No, but I think that's the that that curiosity, I think that's huge for motherhood. Like going into anything new. I mean, even now, like Lydia just graduated, like, I've never done this before. I don't know what this is gonna be like. Like, I have some ideas, I've read some books, I've talked to people who've been through it, but like we always have to go through whether starting with pregnancy, delivery, yeah, you know, breastfeeding, like I have an idea, but idea versus reality can be very different in each situation. So going in with a let's see what this how this goes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And we know we can figure it out. But don't you think that like, well, it's it's a natural process. Don't you think that can be a barrier? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

100%. There is nothing more natural than death and suffering during childbirth. Yeah. If you look at how healthcare was 200 years ago, I mean, more infant and maternal mortality rates were through the roof. Yeah. So, yes, there are artificial things we do, but there is a net positive medicalizing a lot of these things. And I think that's a that's a slippery slope for another time. But there, yeah, but there is, if you look at, you know, 100 years ago, um, infant mortal maternal mortality rates were horrible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Yeah. And I always tell people, there's no metal. There, when your kids are graduating, nobody's gonna say, Oh, that one was breastfed, that one was natural birth, that one, nobody can tell. They didn't say that Lydia when she walked across the stage. They did not. Lydia. They they don't. Like nobody, when they meet your child as an adult, nobody's gonna say, Well, that one was breastfed.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

I shouldn't put that on my resume.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

They can't tell. So there's nothing. No, you know, this thing that we're putting on ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

And I'll actually I wanted to mention one article because some people may read this. Um, there was an article in The Economist just last week, May 12th, that talked about a couple of emerging studies looking at probably more women than we realize are not producing sufficient milk. And I loved this article because it just gave permission for us to do a little bit of supplementation because it is not the end of the world. Right. When people, when pediatricians talk about how long did you breastfeed, and women say 14 months or 18 months or 20 months, you know, there's this pressure to quote unquote exclusively breastfeed. And defining that's a little bit difficult. That means only breast milk went into the baby. Nobody exclusively breastfeeds the past six months. That's not healthy, that's not what we recommend. Yeah. So at some point we're introducing formula, we're introducing um food solids, we're introducing, you know, we're advancing their diet. Um, so you shouldn't at what point you introduce a little bit of formula should not become a defining feature of your motherhood. Right. It is fine to introduce it earlier if it improves the bonding with your baby and it makes you like your baby more. I mean, I don't know how more ridiculous to feed the baby, which is great. Yes, you you know, there's it's I don't want to call anyone out or make anybody feel pressured by this, but it is very hard to uh raise a baby as a single parent. And if your commitment to breastfeeding is causing um major kind of disruption within your family, then I would yeah, I would just encourage you to not I wouldn't pressure you, I would just invite you to more freedom in choosing how you feed your baby so you can enjoy them. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, and bonding is the priority.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yes, bonding is the priority. They're wonderful little people when they're fed. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, they're just there's they don't require much. Feed them, yeah. They need to sleep, they need to eat, they need diapers changed.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Yes, and skin to skin can be with anybody. If you have a a sensitive little eight-year-old older oldest child and it's your third or fourth, slap that baby onto that eight-year-old, put the eight-year-old in front of the TV. That's fine. You know, we can do skin to skin with other family members, grandparents. If you're comfortable, we can do skin to skin, share the love.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Yeah, I love it. Well, we're gonna continue this conversation in our next episode. We're so thankful that you've joined us. We hope that this is helpful for you. We hope that you share this with someone else who it might be helpful for, and we will talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Thank you for joining us on a journey to whole woman health. If this episode encouraged you, share it with a friend, leave a review, or subscribe so you don't miss future conversations. Remember, your questions matter, your health matters, and wholeness is a journey. Until next time.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Now for the legal language. The information shared in this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended as medical or mental health advice. Listening to this podcast does not establish a doctor patient or therapist client relationship. Always consult your own qualified healthcare provider regarding any medical concerns.