Drive Without Burnout | A CEO’s Playbook with Matt McNally

I sat down with Matt McNally, Global CEO of Publicis Health, for one of those conversations that goes way deeper than résumés and titles.

We talked about drive — what it actually is, where it comes from, and how not to let it run you into the ground.

Matt’s journey starts in Philadelphia selling gym memberships, moves through the early days of digital at Razorfish, and eventually leads him to healthcare marketing — a pivot shaped in part by his mom’s battle with rare cancer. That loss changed how he saw his work, his ambition, and his purpose.

We get into the real stuff:

• How childhood insecurity and growing up gay shaped his edge
• The mindset shift that helped him stop “snowballing”
• What burnout actually looks like at the CEO level
• Slowing down in small, intentional moments
• Why kindness is non‑negotiable in leadership

Matt shares what EQ leadership really means, why CEOs are often misunderstood, and how curiosity is the secret to longevity — not just in business, but in life.

For me, this episode is about redefining drive. Not hustle at all costs. Not ego. Not title-chasing.

Drive with intention.
 Drive with awareness.
 Drive without losing yourself.

If you care about leadership, ambition, mental resilience, or just being a better human while doing big things — this one’s for you.

Write to me at: Questions@MindBodyMethodPodcast.com

You can follow me at @JoshGrimm_FITNUT

You can follow Matt @mcnallz

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to Mind Body Method, the podcast where health and fitness go beyond the weights and the workouts. I'm your host, Josh Grimm, and every week we'll dive into what it truly means to build strength, not just in your body, but in your mind and your life. From movement with purpose to building a resilient mindset, this podcast is about empowering you to thrive in every aspect of your life, inside and outside of the gym. So let's get started. Where does drive actually come from? Is it pressure? Is it ambition? Is it, you know, the fear of falling behind? Or is it something quieter, something more internal? Today's conversation is about drive, the kind that builds careers, shapes industries, and fuels long-term impact. But more importantly, it's the kind that sustains without burning you out. We're unpacking ambition with awareness, what pushes high performers forward, how discipline and vision intersect, and what it takes to lead at a high level while staying grounded in who you are. Because drive without clarity can be destructive. Drive with purpose, well, that's transformative. This is about building momentum that lasts and not just chasing success for the sake of it. Welcome back to the Mind Body Method. Hi, and welcome back to the Mind Body Method podcast. And I'm your host, Josh Grimm. Today we are sitting with my friend and client and someone that I greatly admire, not only because of the level of success that he has achieved in his career, but because of his steadiness and the heart that he puts into his work. We are going to talk about Drive in the most human way, what fuels it, what tests it, and how to pursue those big goals whenever you're trying to achieve something big. Please welcome the global CEO of Public's Health, my good friend Matt McNally. Hi.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Hi, good afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm sorry to be here. Me too. This isn't your first rodeo with a podcast. No, I do a lot of these every now and then. It's fun doing it with you that there's a microphone in front of us, but it's all good. I know we talk all the time, like in person. So this is going to be a little different. So let's start with a little bit of backstory of who you are, um, what brought you to the position you are with your work, and a little bit more of a personal exploration into who Matt is.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Sure. So um, I mean, how far back do you want to go? I mean, I was as far as you want. Yeah, I was born in Michigan, right? Kind of youngest of three boys. Um, and I say that because there's a huge age gap between my brothers and I, 11 and eight years. And I think like that gap in my upbringing kind of definitely made me who I am today, right? So I think from a career perspective, I went to the University of Delaware and I was studying marketing. And I was like, what am I gonna do? You know, with this marketing degree. And kind of third semester of my senior year, someone who had graduated from the University of Delaware came down and was working at Leo Burnett, a big ad agency in Chicago. And he talked about what it was like to work at an agency, like a really diverse type of people. You've got finance people, creative people, account execs. And at that moment, I was like, that's what I want to do, right? And I kind of knew nothing about what ad agencies really were, but like the energy behind it really interests me. So I moved to Philadelphia. I couldn't get an advertising job. Um, but I love working out in fitness, and I'd worked at some of the fitness facilities on campus. And so my first job was selling gym memberships at the sporting club in the Bellevue in Philadelphia as I was chasing, you know, an ad gig. Um, and then finally an ad agency in Philadelphia called Earl Palmer Brown hired me as a media associate. And I was like, what is a media associate like during the interview? He's like, Well, you buy ad space.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

And I was like, What? He goes, you know, everyone does the creative, but you buy where that stuff is gonna run. So you're gonna buy radio time, television time, magazine time, people take you out, you'll get free lunches. And I was like, All right, sign up, right? Um, so I did that and it was super exciting. And I was like really enjoying working in advertising. And then kind of the culmination of what happened, I guess when I was like 22, 23, there was this intersection of digital, right? Interactive back then. And a lot of people were thinking the web is gonna go away, right? And what does digital really mean? But I was recruited from Earl Palmer Brown to join a small digital ad agency in Philadelphia called iFrontier, which eventually became Razorfish, one of the biggest digital agencies like in the world. Um, and at that time, I was in media, which wasn't super sexy. I was in digital, which wasn't super sexy. And then my mom was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And I was seeing in real time how going online was helping you answer questions about navigating the healthcare journey. Um, and so I went to the owner of that agency. I was like, Can I run all the health business? Oh, wow. Like as a 20-some year old. And he's like, sure. So there was this trifecta of interactive media and pharmaceutical marketing, fast forward almost 30 years. That intersection is like one of the most powerful places to be in advertising. Yeah. And that kind of led me to, you know, running globally Publisha's health, which is crazy. I mean, a lot of steps in between there, but I think those were like the main beats that brought me to where I am today.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

And does it feel to you like this is kind of the, I shouldn't say the last step of your career, but like you're where you are right now, you kind of reached such a high top of a ladder. Is this something you ever envisioned that you would get to?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

And I I mean, I always wanted to be the person, right, in anything that I wanted to do. And I think for this role, what makes it kind of full circle is I'd spent 14 years at Publicis um and then left eight years ago.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

That's why this podcast is about drive. So I really okay, now it's making sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

So I um I grew up at Publicis, right? And then left to go do other things and now to come back and have the position of one of the roles that my mentor had, right? And now be running an agency globally where some of these people I hired out of college, right? And now they're running agencies, and now they're husbands and wives and partners and have kids. So for me, it is my last stop, you know, in this type of career, but more so that I'm home and less about being the guy at the top.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

You and I speak so candidly all the time about work and I mean personal lives as well, but especially your work. I mean, you seem so happy and so grounded and so just at home, like you said, with the role that you're in now. It's such a pleasure to see because you speak it, you speak about it with such effortless care and love and excitement and passion, and you're really good from what I tell of at what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Why make it sound that way? It's marketing, it's marketing. It's marketing advertising. No, it's the I do you once I think when you're comfortable in your skin in a role, it's it's great, right? But it's still work is work and work is a job. But I've never had a Sunday night where I'm like, shit, I don't want to go there, right? I'm not like doing laps and like jumping up and down, like, yes, work tomorrow. But I love getting back at it, right? And back with the teams and back with people and back with clients. And to be at a place where I'm allowed to lead how I want to lead, I'm empowered to make the decisions I want to make is just refreshing. And I feel super grateful to be there.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

A lot of people that have such success in their jobs and their careers and their life, it seems like they are trying to maybe prove something or take, you know, place of something that they didn't have when they were younger growing up. Do you feel that way?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

I mean, now you're going like deep and you're like my therapist. Yeah. I mean, I think, and that's where I mentioned like a comment about my childhood, right? Like when you're seven and eight years old and your brothers are teenagers and excelling in sports, and like all eyes are kind of on them and all going to all their sporting events and like your parents giving them a lot of attention. Like, I think my drive came from the insecurities associated with that versus like always being confident and courageous because I was the opposite, right? I was a super friendly kid. I was a very like emotive kid, but like I always wanted attention, right? And that attention would be everything from can I lead the milk line going to the cafeteria to in gym class? Can I be the squad leader at the front of the squad, leading calisthenics? To then growing up in swimming, like I wanted to be the captain of the swim team. I wanted to be president of the student government. And I think all of that drive came from like proving who I was. And I think probably in the back of my mind was like, especially as a gay teenager and not knowing or not accepting at that time that I was gay.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

It's a fun place to be whenever you know who you are, you know what you want, you know what you're doing in your world, in your career. Um, I'm assuming people reach out to you for mentorship and for advice. Um, is it something that you like to do as far as mentoring young people in the industry or in their own careers, their own paths? That's my favorite thing to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Like the best part of my job.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

I see that in you all the time.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

I mean, and I get goosebumps talking about it because I don't think there's not a day that goes by where a previous colleague or teammate texts me and goes, Do you have five minutes? Right. And I think it's transcends the career and business marketplace, right? They'll be they'll always ask me questions about work, right? What do I do this? What decision do I make? How do I navigate this difficult boss? How do I navigate this client? How do I speak up for myself? I feel like I need a raise or a promotion. To then even what's even more fun is I even help them with relationships, right? They're like, hey, I'm having a hard time with my partner or my wife or my kids. So the mentorship piece and watching what you can unlock in someone else versus unlocking something in yourself, at least for me, is a lot more rewarding.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

That's like in the intro that I said about you, whenever I said your steadiness, and that's something that I've, you know, I've known you for a couple of years now. And your steadiness of who you are as a man, who you are in your career, that's whenever people want to reach out to you because they see you. Like you emulate that steadiness in your life, everything. And it's a it's a very beautiful characteristic to have. Something that, you know, I strive to achieve in my life too. Um, so what does your day-to-day look like? And being the global CEO of this massive.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

It's wild, right? I mean, it's um it's always on, right? The job is 24-7. One, because we're in the service industry, right? Like our job is to service clients who end of the day are servicing patients and HCPs like around the world. So just like anyone else, like you who have clients, like you are in that service type industry. And then you overlay a global role. There's always a market that's awake. There's always a market that needs something. So, as you know, I mean, my typical day, I get up, I take the dog for a walk, and um, I go to Starbucks at like 5 a.m. and I have just an hour of a little bit of like Instagram fun, but then I start to scan what's going on for the day because it always changes from what I saw at night because we work in such a fast-paced environment. So I'm starting to think about what I am going to be faced with today? Because I want that in my head. I don't necessarily make decisions on those things. I don't necessarily respond to emails unless it's urgent, but I do it more to give me the right lens that I need to take into the day. Meaning, is this gonna be a shit day because we have a lot of angry clients? Is this gonna be like a big day because we've won a lot of new business and we're celebrating that work? Do I have a personnel problem, right? Because part of this job is HR. Do I have a financial problem? And all of those things, I have to show up with a different lens and as a different leader. So I do that, then I work out.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

So you're very analytical with your decision making.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Yes. And I wasn't always like that, right? Because I am EQ, IQ, and I definitely over-index on EQ, then IQ. Okay. But I've started to do this hack because years ago I was an emotive person. Like I'd walk and be like, oh my God, every client is angry. Everything's like, I was what I call a snowballer, right? I will, I would like to wake up and if I would step in a puddle, I'd be like, my whole day is gonna be bad. And I would watch that and I'd be like, and this person just got in front of me on the subway, and this just went wrong at work, and I feel fat today and this outfit is surprised as me. And it was like, and I was like that forever. And I had to start to build in things like this Starbucks moment to say, I can control myself. I can't control all of this stuff around me. And when I've taken this lens approach, like that helps. And then I work out to get grounded.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So what when when did that approach happen? Like when what was that mind shift? Um, the actual shift for you to want to try to make it.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Probably right after my mom passed away. So probably like 15, 16 years ago, seven, probably it's been longer than that now, right? I just had this very reflective moment of life is short, right? Like anyone who's lost someone understands that. I was in this, I was evaluating every aspect of my life. I was evaluating my relationship, I was evaluating my work, you know, place, I was evaluating my self-health, my mental health. And I I realized, I called my, I realized I was a snowballer. And, you know, I got a therapist, I was working out a lot more, and I really needed to put kind of myself and my mental well-being first. Right. And I realized I hadn't done that. I think anyone who's in the LGBTQ community, right, or anyone for that matter that is in not the status quo of a population, you always have felt insecure. You've always felt like you wear masks. You always felt like you had to morph or transform into the environment. And I think that plus all of that stuff, then losing my mom. I was like, I need to get my shit together. Right. Right. I need to like really get my shit together. Cause if not, like this could be bad.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

I mean, having the wherewithal to actually have to make that shift and make those changes in yourself is really what can just elevate you to the next level, the next dimension, and really carry you to a new place. I think that's very like that that self-awareness is very important. Um, so we all know, well, I know your your workout routine. And you you talked a little bit earlier about how you always wanted to be the best of XYZ. So let's talk about your little obsession with soul cycle. This is not a sponsored soul cycle. No, by the way. No, I have um how many how many rides have you had right now under your belt?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Over 2,700. Right. I think I'm at like 2719 as of this morning. I did two, so I'm coming in hot today. Yeah, I did what Soul Cyclers call a double. I did the 830, 930 with Sam Y. Um I was a big swimmer, I was a big triathlete, and um being on a swim team is individual, yet there's camaraderie, right? Like you swim individual events, like sure there's a relay, but there's this aspect of team and community. And I've always loved fitness and I always like group fitness. And I remember my friend Dante brought me to my first soul cycle class in like Union Square, and I walked in and it's this dark room, and there's like four candles lit, and the instructor was like super sexy, and the music was all vibey, and you like ride as a pack to like the beat of the music, right? And so that pack mentality, I love, right? Because I love people, I get my I get recharge from people. Um, I love the music. And I've made some of my best friends in that room. And what I also love about it is I travel so much for work that anyone who travels and loves to work out, when you go to a hotel gym, you spend 20 minutes being like, where's the bench and where's this and where's that? And you get on the bike and the settings are all messed up and the treadmills suck. And you know, then you're paying money if you go to like a weird gym. Like, soul is consistent, right? Like I can go to Chicago, I can go to Boston, I can go to London, and I can walk in, get my water, get my shoes, get on a bike, and have a really good workout.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Do you notice that? I mean, I'm I'm the same way as you. It's like I don't really make decisions or I don't really do things in my life if it doesn't really have a purpose, it's all purpose-driven, right? It's like I'm not kind of just walking into a workout, or I'm not walking into a gym with just like my head in the clouds, right? Yeah, you're the same way. You're doing you started doing soul for a reason, you're you're continuing to do it for a reason. There's always some like sort of purpose for what you do. Do you ever feel that there's some maybe some times where you could slow down a little bit and just allow things? And I know the answer to this from you, from talking to you, but you can just allow the universe to take over and take take control.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Yeah. I mean, I would love to allow that to happen, but I can't.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

But sometimes you I mean, like I try to. Yeah, I mean, I know like whenever you're you spent time at the beach or whenever Yeah, like I have moments, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Like you know this about me. Like I love a sunrise and sunset. Yes, right. And anyone who follows me on Instagram, like they see it. And it can be in a city, it can be at the beach, it could be a beautiful sunset because I just think that reminder, as lame as this sounds, is like every day's a gift. Totally, right? That's why they call it the present. Right. And like having the mindfulness of like watching a day begin or watching a day end, I think frames it. And then I think of just slowing down. You've taught me a bit to slow down. Like I am taking walks more. I am like, okay, I don't need to go to the gym today. Right. And it's okay if that doesn't get checked off the list. Right. It's it's gonna be there tomorrow. But that's muscle training of your mind.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

I feel like you're a little bit like me, where it's like we almost give ourselves this gift of slowing down for, you know, for me, it's like Sunday afternoons typically. And I don't need more than that. Like, you know, for you, sometimes maybe it's just having that sunrise and sunset moment when you're at your place in Palm Beach or whatever it is, where you know, those those few minutes are enough to carry you through, yeah, through like the chaos and all the turbulence and everything else that may happen throughout the day, just to have those little moments. Like, I don't need 24 hours, right? I don't need you know, once in a while I need a few days of of a break, but you know, someone like you and like myself, we're always working, we're always trying to strive to do better. We always want to just always achieve, achieve, achieve.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Well, and you and I often talk about even like when you were just wrapping up your vacation and I do the same, like the last day you're ready almost to get back. Totally ready, right? Like you've enjoyed the downtime, you've completely recharged, you meet new people, you have new experiences, but then you're like, all right, like I'm ready to get back at it.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Routine, the people, the friends, work, especially, because I love my work. Yeah. So more about your routine. Okay. So um you wake up, you get up early, you have your your coffee, you have your workouts. Um, what about your evening routines? What's your what's your kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Well, I mean, for the past year and a half, as you know, my husband was transferred to Palm Beach. So um I was alone at night, which I've not been alone in like 17 years, right? We would we both have high-demanding jobs, right? We're both very type A and scheduled, but I was used to coming home to like a person, right? And a person who loved to cook. I don't even know how to turn on the oven, right? Like a person to like talk to. So I had to like reframe what I keep saying reframe. I had to, I had to do that in the past year and a half. And at first I was going out every night, yeah, right, to dinner. I wasn't going out partying, but I was like going downstairs to Kachina Alba or going to cook shop because like back to me getting my energy from people, I was like, I want to sit next to someone at the bar and like get to know them and have a conversation. And then I realized, okay, that's not working. And now I um I really stay home unless I have a work event. So I come home, I take Bowie for a little walk, I order Uber Eats because I still don't cook. Bowie's your dog, not your husband. Yeah, not Bowie's the husband. I mean Buoy's the dog, not the husband. And um, and like we sit on the couch together, the dog and I, and we watch TV. Yeah. And um, and I enjoy it. And I do that for like two hours-ish, and then I'm in bed by like 9 30.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah. Have you ever felt with your responsibility? Um, do you ever feel feel burnt out? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Like I think, especially in my current job.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Right? I think because it is so demanding. I mean, working at Publicis right now, we're the most successful holding company in the world. Like, we're just coming out of a phenomenal 2025. We've won more new business than anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

We just had a Super Bowl ad.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

We just had a big Super Bowl ad. Um, we've invested so heavily in data, tech, and AI. Like the street is seeing us as like the most future forward. So we have a lot of clients, we're pitching a lot, it's super high demand. And like, yeah, I got on a plane coming home from Boston, and I think I fell asleep before the flight attendant did the like, here's your seatbelt and one L and one R, you know, kind of thing. So I don't know if that's burnt out, but I am tired. I think when I realize for me, burned out is when I realize it's impacting my mental state. And if I start to snap at Ralph, that's the husband, not the dog. Right. So um, if I start getting short with my friends or with Ralph, or I find myself pulling away from people, that's my cue that, like, oh my God, like I'm out of balance. Right. And work has taken up too much.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

And you're carrying a lot of responsibility then because you're you're not only checking in with the thousands of employees that you have, but you're also checking in with yourself constantly and making sure home life is okay. And clients? Yeah, everything, yeah. So it's uh it's a it's a big cross to bear, which is what you're meant for and what you're built for.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah, I feel like I totally. I feel like this is the book that has been written for me, and the chapter that I'm in is exactly where I should be.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Do you feel like where you are now in your work that you can finally take a breath? No, and I shouldn't. I think as a CEO you can't. I don't necessarily mean taking a breath and just like riding it out, but it's As, like, the accomplishments that you want to have and like getting to the leadership level that you are, I mean, there's more I want, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Like, and for our teams, right? Like, I mean, for those who are in the industry, pharmaceutical marketing and healthcare marketing is often seen as not creative. And I've worked really hard in the past 12 months to change that. We've brought in creative talent from around the world that is new to pharma marketing, and now Publicis is seen as a leader in craft and creativity. And I share that. Like, I want our teams to win Can Lions. It's like the best, it's kind of like the Oscars of like advertising, right? So I'm not quite ready to take a breath because there's things I want the teams to experience and be recognized for that like we just haven't had happen yet.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

So the focus just expands. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah. That's a good way to say it.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

What does um like if you were to tell someone who's kind of up and coming in in the same profession, what does you know, longevity in your field look like? Whether they want to be the top dog or they want to be, maybe they want to be, I don't know, the levels of um titles at your in your um industry, but you know, what would you tell them to do?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

You always have to be curious. Like, I think in life, but especially in advertising, like the world is changing so quickly. How we want to interact with brands. I mean, anyone listening to this podcast, think about some of your favorite brands, some of your favorite hotels. Like, what why are they your favorite? What does that experience look like? And the experience now transcends digital into like the physical space. So the velocity of change in marketing in general, I always tell young professionals, like, always be curious, right? Get in rooms you don't belong in, right? Like get in a meeting that is probably you're swinging above your pay grade, so to speak. That makes sense, right? Force yourself into the room. Have the conversation with the senior person that you may be intimidated by. And then as you work through the career, then you become like a mid-level manager. I'm like, stop hanging with the employees that are easy to manage, get with the ones that are difficult. Don't take all the accolades from the clients that are great and love everything that you do. Go to the most difficult, challenging, arrogant, you know, hard to work with client. So I tell everyone, like, get out of your comfort zone and have that curiosity. And I always tell people, use your voice. Like some of the best ideas that I have have come from like some of the most junior people at the organization. Because the ones that are curious are like, well, Matt, why don't we do it this way? Right. Because they don't have the blinders that we do as we build a career or in life. Like you build around yourself like all these things from your past that then frame your perspective to be tunnel visioned. Junior people are like, whoo, like they're seeing it from everywhere. Right. So, like it's all those things that I tell people to do. And I'm like, and be who you are.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I mean, it's a massive gift for you to allow that openness from juniors to be able to come to you with their ideas and their their the thing, the discussions and things like that. I mean, you've always been open to people coming to you. Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

And in one of my first reviews when I was fairly senior, from a guy who's now my mentor, Nicolucci, who ran Publicis Healthcare before I did. Um, in my very first review, it was great. Like it was a nice review. I was like, and it was weird. At the end, he said, Um, you're too accessible. And Nick is an EQIQ, like he's the most amazing boss I've ever had. And I was like shocked. And I was like, Well, what do you mean? And he's like, you know, you're you're it's you're very accessible, you're you're very approachable from all levels. Um, he did give me good advice. He's like, you know, be the first at the party to get there and the first to leave. Like, don't hang out there all night anymore, like you were doing. But it was interesting. I had he had commented on three programs that he was happy with. And I said, Nick, that one program came from an intern at Drexel and she had the confidence to have that conversation with me. That wasn't my idea. I go the second idea about building a programmatic desk for healthcare was like a mid-level new guy who just started. If I didn't have that accessibility and I just was running around with all my peers or my direct reports, I'm kind of talking to myself. Do you think I need to go a few layers below to have that accessibility for me to get ideas? And I use it to hopefully get the next generation of talent invested in what we're doing so they can see their fingerprints on what we're building versus just being part of the execution of it.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Do you think that leaders that are at the same level as you are looking up to you for your style of leadership?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

I think now five years ago, when like EQ leadership was like laughed at, like I'm not super smart, right? I'm I know what I'm doing and I'm good at my job. Like I'm not, I'm not, I'm not academically smart, right? Um, I'm horrible at math, right? Like I'm not a great writer, which is really funny for someone in advertising. I've got to rewrite things a bunch of times and there's grammar errors. Like my mind isn't wired like that. But like this EQ leadership that I've always had, this ability to make people feel seen, make people feel part of a culture. Um, I think post-pandemic, and I hate to even say that we're talking like that, is super important. Can you explain to the listeners what EQ leadership means? You're it's more like emotive and empathetic, right? Like leaders for years, like CEOs were folks that ran successful businesses. They over-indexed in financial management. Um, I need to do that, right? I still have all of those things, but you also need to lead with your heart and your hands and not just your mind. So when I talk about EQ leadership, I think it's like head, heart, hands that you're bringing all three to the table to make decisions, to lead with purpose. Um, because the world sucks right now. And the world has sucked for a long time. Right. Right. And I'm not even talking about politics. I'm talking about what social media has done to people. And, you know, people are lost and don't have friends. Like there's articles now about guys in their 30s don't have friends. Right. Right. They just haven't had those screens. Yeah. So I just think like I show up different. Like I walk around the agency. Yeah. I go to happy hours. I invite more people into new business pitches because they have their day-to-day work that they're assigned to. But new business pitches, you get exposed to other folks. Um, we do a lot of of charity events to get people involved in. Like, I'm I'm a very visible leader. Right. And even on social media, like I allow I'm private, but if employees choose to follow me, I accept the requests.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

I think that it's really fun. I'm I'm similar to you in the in the aspect where it's like, I don't really have a lot of boundaries with my clients or with my work because my personal life and my work life is very integrated. Yeah. Because I love what I do and I can see myself doing something in this field for the rest of my life. I don't think there will ever be a moment where I retire. I'm just gonna always constantly do something a little different. Exactly. And um, I I I love I love it. I mean, I think it I think it probably stalls me a little bit from having certain relationships in my life, to be honest with you. Because there for me, there's a little bit of a burnout factor. But question for you You work a lot, yeah. But question for you is that where do you kind of cut your identity from Matt non-work mat to Matt Work Mat, which has a lot of your personal life involved with it. Is there ever like a hard boundary?

SPEAKER_01 30:16

No, I think it what's I mean, I don't want this to sound like self-congratulatory, but I think that is what has made me successful. I agree, right? Like, like I'm being super reflective right now. Like I am who I am at work, just like I am with my friends. Like, there's no difference at all. And I think I'm very grateful for that. Like, I don't put on a shell and I'm a different person. And similar to you, like my colleagues are my friends. Right. They've been to my wedding, they're who I often hang out with on weekends. Like Jenno Dwyer, who worked for me at my previous company, works for me now. Like, we were texting first thing this morning, right? About work and life and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

We're very lucky and fortunate that we look at our jobs and our careers that way. Because, like you said at the very beginning, you're not, you know, on a Sunday evening, you're not having this, but what do they call scary Sundays? Yes, right. You know, you're you're not jumping up and down, but you're excited because it all just kind of flows together, it all intertwines, which is really cool. If you were not in the role and the position you were in right now, what would you be doing? Take away marketing, take away advertising.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Well, there's a couple things. I mean, joke was I mean, I'd be a soul cycle instructor. Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Like because that's something you do you do ride the podium. Let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

So, like some of the instructors teach from the floor. Um, and what that means is like for anyone who hasn't been to a soul cycle class, like the instructor is usually on like a podium, like an elevated stage. And then obviously, then everyone following their lead on what they're doing. Um, and I often ride up for the instructors, which is like super fun, and I love doing that. Um, you know, coach, leader, and me. So probably Soul Cycle instructor. Um, or like own a bar, right? And I think it's less about drinking. I mean, I do like a nice drink, but it's more about back to humans and people, bringing people together, creating a fun time, a good experience, a good environment.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

And it's like strangers meeting strangers, I think is one of the most magical moments that we all get to experience as a human being. And um, I think that's why I love fitness in gyms. And like you and I talk about it often, like when you see who's coming in and out of the gym. And I think similar at like a bar or a restaurant, like that community, unlikely bedfellows getting sat next to each other, like a finance person and a lesbian that end up talking about like life.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

And the funny thing is because of how much I know you, I can see this bar being like, I mean, from the listeners on the first perspective, they might think it's gonna be this super elevated. No, no, I know. It's like it's literally, it's literally gonna be this like dive bar in key west or on a beach upon a beach. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Like I would be somewhere where it's very like nomadic for sure, right? Like, I want less regulars and more like a flow of like people that don't know each other coming in and out.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Maybe St. Bart's or one of your favorite. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yes. I probably couldn't afford it, and I'd have to learn. I mean, it's funny, I work for a French company. Right. My favorite places to go to St. Bart's was his friends, and I basically know how to say like Bonjour, Mossi Bouku, and Com su comme ça, very bad French. So I probably need to learn French.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Right. Do you have any non-negotiables that you live by? Maybe, maybe personally or you know, impactful towards you, you know, as far as I I have um zero tolerance for people that are not kind to other people.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I love it. Zero. Like I have lost friends over it, I've lost family over it, and it's less about guided at me. I'm a big boy. I can we all have our moments where someone lashes out. Standing up for others, correct. But when I watch people treating people on the street poorly, a flight attendant poorly, because the plane's late, it's not their fault. Right. Right? So that to me is like game over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

You take notice and you take stock. Correct. For sure. Um do you meditate? No. You don't have to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

I probably have to. What's your adversity to it? Probably time. And I know that's a lame excuse, but like I have to carve out the time to do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Let's talk about a little bit about your influence as far as your impact that I'm sure, again, like talking about other people coming to you for mentorship. What do you think is the number one thing that drives your impact towards people that want to go into a role that you is it the accessibility that you talked about into a role that you actually have right now? Um like how I guess how I guess what I'm trying to say, how do you inspire the drive in other people?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I think they trust me, right? Because um I believe in what we're doing, and I think I come across as authentic, right? Right. When I talk about what we do, where we work, who we do it for. Um even if it's a difficult position, I try to explain to a person like why it's right for them now, right? Or more importantly, why a role they want is not right for them now. So I think this authenticity, transparency, and like unwavering belief in people in my workplace and an unwavering belief in where I work helps. Not every day's easy.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

So I know that at this stage, right? I'm sure you've had mentors in the past that you've looked up to. Do you still?

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Yes. Um Nick Clucci, who I talked about, like I, you know, even if it's not as often as it used to be, like I saw him at an event and like asked him a question on how to navigate something, right? I think it's important to have mentorship regardless of where you are. And then I love reverse mentorship, right? I love connecting with junior talent to make me better. Right. So I weave that into my program. They don't know that that's why it's happening. Yeah, right. They think it's a catch-up. But for me, it's inspiring me to show up different.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Whenever people speak about you as a leader, um, what would you hope that they would say? Because you have made an impact on quite a lot of people. Yeah, it's the best part. Right. Being a leader is a gift. What do you think? Okay, what do you think are there any negatives that you think that they would say?

SPEAKER_01 36:54

A bunch of my friends who've worked with me for a long time, um, say that I have strays. Have what? Strays, like stray cats. Oh, where I so want to find the good in someone, even like oh, you're really trying, you're really putting a lot of attention and energy. And like they're like, Matt, like, it's not gonna work out. Right. So I think I candidly need to do a better job at not getting blinded by the relationship. And often I need to just be better at they're not just they're not cutting it.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Right, but you have the empathy and you believe in them, and you want to you want them to do better and you see the good in them, but sometimes people just aren't ready for it.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

No, like years ago, Lisa Schatz, she worked with me in Philadelphia, and we met this bartender, and I was like, Do you want to work in advertising? So you're so outgoing, and I love you, and I love your style. And she's like, Well, what would I do? We hired her, and um, she didn't know how to like open Excel, right? I mean, they were just fundamental, and Lisa and I believed in her, and finally, like four the people are like, we got to get rid of the bartender, Matt. Like, this just is not right gonna work out. So I think I need to do better at objectively making decisions about talent.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

It's hard. It's like whenever you see a stray walking in the front, there's room for everybody. I'll take you home. Right. There's always room at my end, right? Always. So I like to do something at the end of my segments, like a little bit of a rapid fire and ask you some questions. And you're a quick guy, so I'm curious to see what your answers are for these.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Like one-word answers or like no, no, no, they could be whatever.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Just like first thing that comes to your mind.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

I didn't know if it was like when I say hot, you think this when I say No, I mean I should do that one day.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

All right, so I have some questions here. All right, so first thing a failure that shaped you.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

I I think like I had a failed relationship that like totally reframed how I now approach life. I love that. And I realized like I was the problem. Okay, and at the time I didn't realize that, but I was definitely the problem.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

What is a habit that you refuse to skip? I think we know the answer to this.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Working out.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

What is the best leadership advice that you've ever received? Head hard hands. That came from Nicolucci. What is one trait that every high performer needs?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Curiosity.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

What is something that people misunderstand about CEOs?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

It's not glamorous. You you still don't make every decision, right? Especially if you work at a public company. Um and it is so stressful because everyone's depending on you. Like I could make a decision that could cost people their jobs, right? Right? It's it's not about being on a podcast or doing a town hall or I think the visible things people see. And I also think it's really easy to on the outside disagree with a leader's decision. Um, because you don't see everything that led to that decision. I'm not saying every decision a CEO or leader makes is the right one, but it's a um it's a it's it's like an impossible job.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

What is one word for the season that you're in right now?

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Reflective.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

I um I really appreciate you being here. Super fun. I love you. I love you too. You have such uh such valuable information. I'm sure that people that are listening and watching this podcast are gonna just take a lot of information from. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

That was really great and a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

So thank you for listening and watching this um episode of the Mind Body Method Podcast with Matt McNally. Um, anywhere you watch and listen, please like, subscribe, tell your friends. And my Instagram is Josh Grimm underscore fitnut, f I t-nut, and our guest Matt McNally. It's McNals, M-C-N-A-L-L-Z for Instagram. Um, any questions, questions at MindBody Method Podcast.com. And I'll see you next Wednesday. Thanks. Thank you for joining me today on Mind Body Method. This podcast is part of Pride House Media, hosted by me, Josh Grimm, produced and edited by Josh Rosenspike, original music composed by Neil Fallipin. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And while you're there, leave us a rating and review. It really helps others to discover the show. I'd love to stay connected with you, so join the conversation by following me at Josh Grimm underscore fit that on Instagram and by emailing me at questions at mindbodypodcast.com.