Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 2 (Chapter 1 - "The Problem Of Doubt")

A quiet question keeps many believers awake at night: am I really saved, or did I miss something? We take that fear seriously and walk straight into it, using chapter one of Jack Wilkie’s "You Are Saved" as our guide. Jonathan Sanford and Cliff Thompson unpack why faithful Christians still wrestle with assurance, how a late-night conscience can feel louder than Sunday certainty, and what it takes to move from fragile confidence in ourselves to a durable trust in Christ.

We start by naming the three questions that haunt so many: what if I die before confessing a fresh sin, what if I forgot one, and what if I’m wrong about something important? From there, we put our weekly worship under the microscope. Hymns like When We All Get To Heaven, Blessed Assurance, and It Is Well With My Soul preach bold theology we eagerly sing—so why do our Monday hearts still hedge? That tension exposes a deeper issue: the subtle shift from Christ-centered assurance to self-centered scorekeeping.

Together, we map the pendulum that robs peace—cheap grace on one side, legalism on the other. Cheap grace shrinks repentance and discipleship; legalism builds impossible checklists that end in pride or despair. Luke 18’s rich young ruler and Pharisee illustrate how self-reliance creates either false confidence or crushing doubt, while the tax collector finds justification through humble mercy. We also trace the real cost of doubt: arrested spiritual growth, brittle unity, and fading evangelism. When we lack assurance, we export anxiety instead of good news.

The path forward is clear and hopeful. Assurance ends where it must—on Jesus’ finished work. Saying I am saved is not presumption; it’s worship, because it declares his blood is enough. Step off the pendulum. Let your songs align with your weekdays. Grow from milk to meat. And share a gospel that sounds like good news because it comes from a heart at rest.

If this conversation helped you breathe easier, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs peace tonight, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Opening Question: Am I Saved

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Have you ever late at night and wondered? Am I truly say? Not because you don't believe in God, but you lay there and think, is it possible that I've missed something?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

It's a question a lot of Christians carry quietly. Even while singing songs about assurance every Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

In episode two of Scripture Matters, we dive this day into chapter one of Jack Wilkie's book, You Are Saved. The Christian Assurance with Chapter 1, The Problem of Doubt.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Why do faithful Christians struggle with assurance? Why do our hand sounds confidence? Well, our hearts often don't.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Folks, let me tell you, this isn't about cheap grace. This isn't about legalism. No, it's all about where real assurance is actually found.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

If you've ever asked, Am I truly right with God? Well, this episode is for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Good folks, this is Scripture Matters, Episode 2.

Welcome And Church Info

SPEAKER_00 1:08

This is Scripture Matters, a podcast of the Waters Road Church of Christ. Waters Road Church of Christ is located at 3616 Waters Road in Pasadena, Texas. We'd love to have you join us sometime. If you need more information about our congregation, check us out at wrcofc.org on the web or email us at office at WRCOFC.org. Again, you've tuned in to Scripture Matters.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

I'm Jonathan Sacker, the minister here at the Waters Road Church of Christ, and delighted to be joined by my partner in crime, Cliff Thompson, one of the shepherds here at Waters Road. And we're so thankful, uh Cliff, about the response we got from episode one. We were brand new in this and trying to kind of feel our way through it. But the response we got from people was very encouraging. We walked away, not feel like maybe we did our best work, but uh the encouragement by the end of it made us feel pretty good about pigs.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

It did, at least it got it started. Yeah, yeah. It got to start somewhere. Did you have any takeaway on that first one?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, just from the standpoint that, you know, really and truly, what a great introduction to this book. But you and I talked about some things that came on your heart, Cliff, um, about some of the isolation and the thoughts that we've talked about in that introduction. What uh do you mind sharing the books out there, kind of what you were thinking about?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

You know, we don't think that it's only just the guests that come into Waters Road that may be isolated. We may have even our own members that are going through that type of isolation. And as such, we need to be more mindful of them. Are they going through something going on? It is something that we need to maybe uh put our arms around them and have them.

Nighttime Doubts And Assurance

SPEAKER_01 2:59

It's very easy to assume that everybody's just fine. Yes. That nobody is struggling with the problems that this book is going to talk about. But not only do guests struggle with that, but our members from time to time find themselves dealing with some of the lack of assurance that this podcast and this book covers. So we're excited to be able to share this. Whether you're a uh a member here at Waters Road for 50 years, and there are some, or you're just in your first year as a member here uh of the Lord's Church at Waters Road, we really are encouraged that we can take this journey together with you through this book. Again, Jack Wilkie's book, uh, You Are Saved, The Christian Assurance. And now we turn our attention to chapter one. And for all of you out there, I hope you've had an opportunity to read chapter one. If you've not yet read chapter one, a good idea to pause this video. Uh, if you have the book already, uh, break that book open, read chapter one. If you have not yet purchased the book, uh you can find the link to purchase this book on Amazon. Whether you prefer the paperback or uh the Kendall version, you can buy that. So please make sure you read chapter one. Again, The Problem of Doubt is the title for this chapter, and we're going to be covering a review of this first chapter today. But one of the things that, Cliff, I want to do as we really get into this uh episode. Um, before we even get into the mechanics of this first chapter, I want to start somewhere with the folks, very real. Um, we want to ask you as listeners, something not from Jonathan the preacher, not from Cliff the Elder, not as teachers, uh, not as leaders of the church, but as your fellow Christians, we uh want to ask you the question that we just talked about in our opening here today. Have there ever been those moments, again, late at night, when everything is quiet, uh, when the distractions finally die down from the day? And somehow, somehow, this thought slips into your mind. If I were to die tonight, uh, while I'm sleeping, if I were to die tonight, have I done enough? Now, I I trust God. Uh I know that Jesus is saying, well, it's not about those two things, but the question that we're talking about here is this subtle kind of unsettling question that comes into our minds and our heart. Have I done enough?

SPEAKER_02 5:30

And you know what, Jonathan? That makes it so unsettling is that it usually does not happen during the moments that we are busy, the during the moments that our mind is chaotic. It kind of shows up whenever things begin to start slowing down. Yeah, when you are alone with your own thoughts. It tells me when you really think about the situation, you're looking more at a spiritual, at a spiritual one type of a problem, other than an intellectual type of problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah, so exactly right, Cliff. It's it's again not an intellectual issue because you know that God is real, you know that Jesus died for you. Uh so the fact that it shows up for faithful Christians, whether you've been a faithful Christian for 10 years, 20 years, one year, 50 years, it does not matter the length of time. Um, it it it the fact that it shows up for faithful Christians, that's what really matters. Um, this is about rebellion. Again, this is not a matter of rebellion, it's not about uh being legalist or liberal. It's all about assurance. And every Christian out there, listen, every Christian out there should feel assured of their salvation. And that's actually um the reason why uh Jack Wilkie opens this book with this chapter the way he does.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

You know, he's speaking to people, Jonathan, who care deeply about being right with God, like we all do.

Doubt Hits All Ages

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, well, with that in mind, our our first section that we're gonna talk about here from chapter one here today. You know, Wilkie begins this chapter by dismantling an idea that is very prevalent uh amongst a lot of Christians, uh, that doubt is something that only older uh Christians deal with. As uh you get a little bit older, sometimes you become more personally acquainted with your own mortality. You begin to sniff the reality that, hey, I'm not gonna live uh for an eternity. I am, especially in this body, we say. Um I have a limited span of life here on this earth. So when that begins to happen, um, wow, um, the certainty uh of death, Cliff, um I love the way that that Wilkie points out. This is not uh uh a last chapter of life issue. It happens for all Christians of all ages.

SPEAKER_02 7:56

It cannot be more correct, Jonathan. He's saying this doubt shows up not only oh, but sometimes early and sometimes often. And no matter how long that you said your church attendance was, or no matter how long that you said that your Bible knowledge was, you know, it doesn't just automatically disappear.

Three Haunting Questions

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, and what I like this he starts out by talking about some of the questions that he's personally been asked. Uh Jack is a minister in the Lord's church, um, and these questions that he talks about here at the beginning of the chapter, three questions that he's been asked. Uh, what if I die suddenly before I have an opportunity to ask for forgiveness? In other words, I'm driving down the road, somebody cuts me off, I let out a bad word, um, and all of a sudden I crash, I die. What if I die in that moment before I've ever even had a chance to ask for forgiveness? Um, what if there's sin that somehow escaped my mind that I forgot to confess? It's a very real question that people have had. And the third question was, what if I'm wrong about something important? What if there's something very important that I think I know exactly the way it should be, and I end up being wrong about it? Um, and I don't even know that I'm wrong about it, and I die in that situation. What's gonna happen to me? Those are the three questions that he starts out this chapter talking about. And again, uh these are questions that he has gotten as a minister of the Lord's church.

SPEAKER_02 9:28

You know, those questions to me reveal how salvation is kind of framed in people's minds as basically something like if your hands is full of oil and you're holding something very precious and it's fragile, and it's something that can be dropped and be lost accidentally forever.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Kind of like mom's fine china. Yeah, right. Don't don't mess with the separate. Um, but it it reveals something else that I think is also important is that people often treat their salvation, Cliff, like a system that you've got to manage just perfectly.

Salvation Is Not A Coin Flip

SPEAKER_02 10:08

And, you know, Wilkie's comments about Christians sounding like their eternity is like a coin flip. You know, that that something like that, Jonathan, should deeply trouble us.

Hymns That Preach Assurance

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, you know, I watched Joe Montana uh that was watching a YouTube video uh back when he played quarterback, and uh boy, he was a fantastic quarterback. But uh one of the things they talk about is the coin flip and how that can change a game. Yes, you know, who gets the ball first, who kicks off first, whether you go on defense first or whether you receive the ball. But salvation is not like a coin flip, and I think that's important that he stresses that there are some Christians that look at it that way. Uh in segment two, what I found interesting is he talks about some of these songs that we sing in worship, like Blessed are the sugar, Jesus'. I mean, these songs that we sing with such heart that we uh sing out loud, loud and proud, like we truly believe the words. Uh so this hymn section um that he talks about next, as I've read this book, it may be the most convicting for me personally part of not only this chapter, but maybe even the book. And we'll he turns to hymns because uh whether people out there know it or not, hymns that we sing are theology that bypass our defenses.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

You know, you're you're basically singing a sermon, and when you sing it, you don't argue with it, you just sing it out loud.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

And so the first song that he talks about is one that most of our listeners should know. It's When We All Get to Heaven, right? Uh, and so he talks about when we all get to heaven, and just listen. Uh, folks out there, if you haven't done this, listen to how confidently um it speaks. It says, seeing the wondrous love of Jesus, seeing his mercy and his grace in the mansions bright and blessed, he'll prepare for us the place. That's what we call Cliff settled language. I don't hear any doubt in those. I don't hear any doubt whatsoever in those words.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Even in the refane, it goes even deeper. And it it says that when we all get to heaven, what a day of rejoicing that will be. That there's no hesitation there in those words.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And it just goes even further to eradicate any doubt. And yet, and yet, Wilkie, his observation uh pierces to the heart that many Christians they sing these words on Sunday morning and Sunday night, and yet when they're at their home or their workplace on Monday, they still live unsure uh whether heaven is actually going to be their eternal destination. So you sing about it as if you know it, but then on Monday you're not sure that you truly believe it.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Well, Jonathan, that tells me that they're very comfortable to sing about it, but they're very hesitant to claim it as their own.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

That's right. And then comes another song that everybody, I think, out there knows uh Blessed Assurance, we talked about just a moment ago. Uh, and the boldness in that song, Cliff. Both the language, the way we sing it, it is unmistakable. Folks, just take a moment, listen to these words. Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine. So if when we all get to heaven is saddled language, like we said, right, then blessed assurance, if I'll tell you for sure, that is ownership language. That is definitely ownership language.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Well, and then air of salvation, purchased of God, born of his spirit, washed in his blood. There's nothing tentative better.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Not at all. And like um, like I said, the author here, Jack Wilkie, he isn't pulling any punches here in this first chapter, because then he follows those first two songs with a song that, man, whenever we sing this on Sunday mornings at Chilbucks, right? It is Well With My Soul. And that hymn confronts fear head on. And if you know the story behind the author of that song, it's quite amazing. But the words, my sin, oh the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin, not in part, but the whole is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more. That removes the fear of the forgotten sins or or the sins that that we don't um take account of. That those words are speaking even about those types of sins, well, and nailed to the cross, it reinforces it.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

I mean, there's no condemnation. I know I am free, for my sins are all nailed to the cross. Folks, it says I know. It doesn't say I hope.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

And then uh please don't let me forget this one. Amazing grace uh says, 'twas grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. So grace in that verse not only produces fear, but it produces fear only to remove it. So that's an amazing thought.

Monday Lives Versus Sunday Songs

SPEAKER_02 15:48

And uh Wilkie's uh question is completely unavoidable. I mean, if our worship is filled with the assurance of singing these songs, then why isn't our faith, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Almost as if, Cliff, there's a contradiction between the songs that we sing and the faith that we're living in. Man, I don't I don't ever want that to be said about any of us. Um, moving on now to segment three here. It's interesting. We talked about these hymns now. The big question though really comes about why then do so many Christians, regardless of age, why do so many Christians struggle with feeling assured of their salvation? Uh and Wilkie, he identifies here two extremes. And we've kind of already referenced them a little bit, but the first is cheap grace, and the other is legalism. Again, cheap grace and legality.

Cheap Grace And Legalism

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Cheap grace minimizes repentance and it minimizes discipleship. It says I'm sincere, so sincerity is another all you need.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Just like this idea, all I have to have is faith. I don't have to have any real obedience, all I have to have is faith. But the problem is, Cliff, uh sincerity eventually will collapse under the weight of guilt. That has happened to so many people I've known over the years.

SPEAKER_02 17:21

So in response to that, people will start swinging towards legalism.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, and it's this pendulum principle. You're on the pendulum, right? You pull that pendulum back to one side, it swings across, hits in the middle, and then it swings the other side. Almost like, and I had this professor in college, uh, Brother Anderson, he talked about this cliff principle. In other words, not Cliff Thomas, but look, you run to one side of the cliff, cliff, and you look over and you see the danger. And instead of running to the middle of the mountain, you run to the other side of the cliff, and then you look over that side and you see the danger on that side. So you're just going back and forth. Um, as we talked about in our introductory episode, uh, we referred to something called checklist Christianity.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Uh, or another way you might refer to it is precision-based faith. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

And you and you know, Jonathan, Wilkie makes a very important point here because legalism oftentimes starts out with good intentions.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Absolutely. I I would agree with that. I I've seen it many times. But uh, you know, the problem um is that it ends with impossible expectations, uh, impossible expectations of ourselves, and sadly, uh impossible expectations of other people. Um, and then assurance just vanishes. Whenever that takes place, assurance disappears from these people's lives. And uh so the answer, I guess, Cliff, the question of this segment, um, the reason why assurance is banishing within our churches is that too many Christians are dealing with that swinging pinlet. They're bouncing back and forth between cheap grace uh and legalism. And instead of stopping in true discipleship, uh, it never occurs. And repentance, sadly, is never an option in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

It never is, and unfortunately, you're absolutely right with that.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Yeah. All right. Uh, segment four that we want to talk about in our our second episode here has to do with a chapter that I really enjoy. Um, and we saw a giant take us to Luke chapter 18. And there is a rich young ruler there. We're going to talk about in just a moment.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah, if you drop down to verse 20, we have the parable of the rich young ruler, and he asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus gives him a list of things that he needs to do under the law. That's right. Then in verse 21, the rich young ruler says, Well, all of these I've kept from my myths.

Checklist Faith And Impossible Standards

SPEAKER_01 20:14

That's right. Um, the Pharisee, you if you remember, the Pharisee uh with the uh prayer, he talks about, he says, God, I thank you, I am not like other men. Right, right. Right. Um and that's such a wow, brazen statement, don't you agree?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Brother, right here in this section of chapter one, you can't help but see that Wilkie shows that legalism produces false confidence. And in some it does, but I guess in others it produces kind of despair.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Well, again, when you're talking about the rich young ruler, you're talking about a guy who looked at his his uh his life and to our Lord said, All these I have kept from my youth. Now, he could have been very sincere in that moment and yet still been sincerely wrong. And then uh the Pharisee and and the prayer moment, you know, God, I thank you that I'm not like other men, is basing that idea on what I have done and what I have not done. And in those two cases, as you just said, that false confidence produces a legalistic mindset that places one's feeling of assurance into how much I've done, how much I've not done, and uh I'm not trying to throw stones at anybody, and I know you're not either. Um, but the reality is neither of those two uh leads to true assurance.

Rich Young Ruler And Pharisee

SPEAKER_02 21:49

No, it doesn't. And you know, whenever both of the you look at the uh the rich young ruler, he went away sad. Yeah, and you look at The tax collector standing off by the side, praising God and asking him, Here I am a sinner.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

He went away justified. Yes, he's the idea. All right, segment number five here today. We're talking about something that I think is very near and dear to both of us, and that is the cost of doubt. Yes. Um Jack uh asks why this matters. And the first reason why it matters is maturity. Yeah, and then he uses marriage as the analogy to you know, think about your wife, and I'll think about my wife for a moment. If when we first married to our spouse, if we constantly doubted their uh love, if if we constantly doubted whether or not Edwina truly loved you or Jennifer truly loved me, imagine how little, I mean, really truly growth would have been impossible in our relationships because we've always been kind of looking over our shoulder, right? Uh so if you constantly doubt your spouse's love, growth is impossible.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

And you know, in Hebrews chapter 5, you can drop down to verse 12, it speaks how that now Christians should be on solid food, but they're now stuck on milk because the foundation that they have is unstable.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah, that's that's very, very true. Um Leaders, um, he says in Hebrews chapter 5, if you want to look at that with us, Hebrews chapter 5, verse 11, he says, about this, we have much to say, and it's hard to explain since you become dull of hearing, right? Right. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need somebody to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food. For everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. So again, that foundation is never going to be stable because they're still stuck on that milk, as you said.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

And they should be the ones who are out teaching, they should be the one out proclaiming, but yet they're the ones that need to be taught to.

False Confidence Versus Justified Sinner

SPEAKER_01 24:18

No, no doubt about it. Um, our next segment, segment six, is talking about two principles that wow is so important for the local church. Yes, yes. Uh, the first is unity, and the second is evangelism. And if I were to point out to you two principles of fellowship within the Lord's church, I'm not sure I put many things above unity and evangelism. Now, doubt, think about it. Doubt, as Jack says, doesn't stay private. It would be one thing if a brother in our church was dealing with doubt and it was just an isolated insulin incident that never affected anybody. But what is true is that doubt doesn't stay private, it um it affects our unity within the church and it affects our fellowship.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

And you know, Jonathan, that is so true. Because listen, if I'm unsure of my salvation, it's hard to feel that connection to others to be able to talk to them about salvation.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

And then if that's the case, then the one thing that suffers is the evangelism.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

And Jonathan, what happens in all reality is you are instead of sharing the good news, which you're not, you're sharing uncertainty.

The Cost Of Doubt: Maturity Stalled

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, very little, uh, I would say, Cliff, very few Christians who are unsure of their own salvation are going to be willing to go out and tell others about Jesus Christ. You call them church. I mean, that's just a fact, right? That's right. Our next segment here in chapter number one, the problem of doubt. Um, we're going to talk about Jesus' glory. This is a great segment. It I think this chapter uh as a whole, Cliff, is just as brilliant. And the reason why is because Jack Milkie ends this chapter in the one place where it must end, um, and that is with Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Jonathan, you are absolutely correct about that. Jack is spot on. It is with Jesus, and not performance and not consistency.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

No, it's so true that that Jesus has to be uh the end. I I don't know how many of you out there that are watching this, listening this, have ever thought about this, folks, but simply saying, I am saved, Cliff, it it's a form of worship.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Well, the reason why is because it declares Christ's blood was enough.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

That's right. So what you find uh assurance in most is what you end up worshiping the most. Let's say it again for folks out there, make sure you is. What you find assurance in most is going to be that thing you end up worshiping the most. So if you are convinced that you are the reason why you are seven, that's your performance, that you're keeping of these regulations, these rules, these rights and wrongs, if you're convinced that you doing that is going to be what assures you reach heaven, then guess who you're going to worship with? You're going to worship yourself. But if you um are going to trust in Jesus, if you're going to trust in the blood of Jesus Christ, then it's obvious who's going to be the object of your worship. So you think about legalism, think about cheap grace, either one of those things, or the blood of Jesus, who saved you.

Milk, Meat, And Growth

SPEAKER_02 27:55

You know, let's talk truth for just a minute, folks. If you sing those songs of worship that we've talked about here to today, Jonathan, and yet you find assurance in anything else, then dear folks, you're really and truthfully living a life of contradiction. You sing blessed assurance, Jesus' mind. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

That's right. Thank you for that, Cliff. A great reminder to all of us. Now, as we close out uh episode two here of Scripture Matters, uh, we want to leave all of you with this kind of question. If someone asks you today, are you saved? Could you answer that without hesitation? Wow.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

And obviously, if you uh answer that you can't, or if you answer not, then why?

Doubt, Unity, And Evangelism

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah. Folks, listen to us. Uh, that's what this study, that's what this look is all about. And as we move on next week into episode three, we are going to begin to learn the history of assurance. That assurance didn't just start with the New Testament, it didn't just start with the book of Acts. Um, and we're going to see how assurance became a very understandable concept even under God's dealings with his children in the old covenant, under the old covenant.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Well, under the old covenant, what did assurance mean to them? If a child of the old covenant of the old covenant could feel assured of their standing before God, then how much more should we feel under the new covenant on this side of the cross?

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah, I was thinking about uh in preparation for this episode, Cliff, I was thinking about the Psalms that David wrote. And he sounded like a man that from time to time struggled with various things, but the one thing that I see most is that he found assurance that God was going to deliver him. No matter what the situation was, he believed ultimately that God was gonna deliver him. And I hope that we can have as much or way more assurance in our life than David had. We're on this side of the cross. So, uh, folks, I hope you've enjoyed our second episode here today. We've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed spending this time with you, and we're gonna see all this we've talked about in episode three and so much more uh in our next episode, episode three of Scripture Matters. You got any other thoughts here before we send them home?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

No, I just cannot wait. Let's get this thing started more.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

That's right. I've enjoyed it. Thank you so much for joining us. Again, I'm Jonathan Sandford, the pulpit minister, here at the Waters Road Church of Crimes.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

And this is Cliff Thompson, one of the shepherds here at the Waters Road Church of Crimes.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

And you have been watching and listening to Scripture Matters.