Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 4 (Chapter 3 - “Grasping The Depth Of Our Sin”)

A hallway that won’t end, a shadow that won’t name itself, and a jump scare that gets you every time—fear thrives in the dark. We begin with that image to expose something many of us keep in the shadows: sin, and the way misjudging it either terrifies us or numbs us. From there, we turn on the light of Scripture and walk through a story arc that moves from honesty to hope.

We look squarely at sin’s gravity the way the Bible does—Genesis 6, Exodus, Leviticus 10, 2 Samuel 6, Acts 5—and let those moments unsettle easy answers. The point isn’t to crush you; it’s to end the blur. Then we ask the hard question: if sin is this serious, how could anyone stand before a holy God? That opens the door to the law’s true function. Romans 3:20 makes it plain: the law is a mirror, not a medicine. It reveals guilt; it doesn’t remove it. If you’ve ever tied your peace to a “good week” or felt condemned after a stumble, you’ll hear why performance-based assurance can never hold.

Everything pivots on two words: but God. Ephesians 2 reframes the whole story. Dead in sin, made alive with Christ—by grace, not momentum. We bring that truth to life with the prodigal son. Watch the Father run, interrupt the bargaining, and restore a son with robe, ring, sandals, and feast. It’s not probation; it’s identity. Then we meet the older brother and name a subtler trap: trusting obedience as currency. The Father’s response—“You are always with me, and all that is mine is yours”—re-centers assurance on relationship, not record.

By the end, we’re living from security rather than toward it. Gratitude replaces anxiety. Obedience deepens because love is driving, not fear. Prayer opens. Worship breathes. If you’ve carried quiet doubts—Have I sinned too much? Have I done enough?—this conversation offers a steadier ground: Christ’s finished work. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs rest for their soul, and leave a review to tell us: are you the younger brother, the older brother, or finally coming to the feast?

Transcript

Horror Analogy And The Unknown

SPEAKER_01 0:10

It always starts the same way. The lights flicker. The hallway stretches longer than it should. There's something in the darkness you can't see it, but you know it's there.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

You hear it before you see it. It's a creak, it's a whisper. A shadow that doesn't belong appears to be moving down a long dark wall.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And the question starts forming what is it? How big is it? Can it hurt me? Or worse, is it already closer than I think?

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Then boo! And you really jump out of your skin. That's the tension every good horror story builds. The unknown, it's what makes it so terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Because when evil hides in the dark, your imagination fills in the blanks. And sometimes what you imagine is far worse than what's real. Other times, it's not worse at all. It's exactly as deadly as you feared.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

And there's something Christians often leave in the shadows just like that, too.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, we call it sin. What is it? How serious is it? Can it really condemn me? Or am I overreacting? And depending on how you answer those questions, you may either live terrified or dangerously casual.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

But either way, folks, if you never turn on the light so you can actually see the monster, you'll never live in peace.

Introducing Scripture Matters And Hosts

SPEAKER_01 1:44

That's exactly right. So in today's episode of Scripture Matters, we're stepping out of the dark. This is Scripture Matters, a podcast of the Waters Road Church of Christ. Waters Road Church of Christ is located at 3616 Waters Road in Pasadena, Texas. We'd love to have you join us sometime. If you need more information about our congregation, check us out at wrcopc.org on the web or email us at office at WRCOFC.org. Getting you tuned in to Scripture Matters. All right, we are joining here today for another episode of Scripture Matters. This is episode number four of Scripture Matters. I'm Jonathan Sanford, your host, along with our co-host Cliff Thompson, one of the shepherds of the Waters Road Church of Christ. We are delighted to be back with you once again for this, our fourth episode of Scripture Matters as we are looking at reviewing this book by Brother Jack Wilkie called You Are Saved, a Christian's Assurance. And we are in chapter number three entitled Grasping the Depth of Our Sin. Cliff, it is so good to be joined by you once again.

Overestimating And Underestimating Sin

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I feel good to be here, but I tell you something, Jonathan, after that intro, that kind of gave me the heebie jeebies, but I'm still very excited about covering this very important topic with you today.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah, and I think it's a very personal topic for me and you. We've talked about this offline. We have friends, we have family members, we have brothers and sisters in Christ that you and I feel that they can benefit from what we're going to be talking about here today. Very much so. All right. So before we get into our first segment today, we have something we need you to do us a big favor out there in Internet land. Please tap the like button. And if you're not already a subscriber to Scripture Matters, go ahead and tap that subscribe button here on YouTube or Facebook. It helps us with that crazy thing called an algorithm. It's it's a monster sometimes to learn how all this works. But the the main thing, Clit, that we want to do is get the word out. We want our friends, our family members, our brothers and sisters in Christ to help us share the word about what we are covering here today.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

You know, you and I talked about how great this book is, and we really feel that this is this book and this topic is going to touch so many lives, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Oh, no doubt about it. All right, let's get now into chapter number three. As we talked about just a few moments, chapter three, this first segment, we're gonna be talking about the monster that hides in the darkness. And Jack starts out with this horror movie analogy, the monster in the shadows. And listen, this is more than just a clever illustration. Uh, he's doing something very um expertly here, theologically speaking, because when something stays undefined in the darkness, well, your imagination fills the gaps. And what you can imagine can become either bigger, far bigger than reality, or far smaller than reality.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Oh, you're so right there, Jonathan. Folks, when you don't clearly define something, that something then is left to your own imagination. And we know what happens next. It either becomes exaggerated or becomes minimized, and both are distorted.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

No, that's true. And Wilkie argues that Christians, folks like you and I, sometimes struggle with assurance, not because we reject the gospel, but because we misunderstand sin.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, and we can either overestimate sin or we can underestimate sin. And either error creates instability in our confidence that we have before God.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Now that sounds strange at first, I think to some people, but Wilkie is not softening sin here. He's talking about believers out there who think somehow their sin has become stronger than God's grace, that their particular failures, and every one of us, Cliff and I, we've talked about this. We have our particular failures in our life, our particular struggle with individual sins. Uh, that there are people who believe that their particular failures, whatever they may be, are uniquely disqualifying, that they have done something that sets them outside the reach of God's redemption.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Now, when you say something like that, it can sound humble and it can also sound broken and even to the point of being contrite.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, it can. But when someone says, My sin is too much, what they may actually be implying here is that Christ's sacrifice is not enough. And let me be as loving as I can when I say this, Cliff. That's not humility, that's unbelief. Um, and to back that up, we think back to last week. We talked about Romans chapter 8 and verse 1, right? That famous verse that you and I talked about together in our foundations class. Romans 8:1. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are found in Christ Jesus. We're not talking about reduced condemnation. We're not talking about delayed condemnation, no, no condemnation.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

So, according to Paul, overestimating sin doesn't protect reverence. No, no, as a matter of fact, it undermines God's grace.

Scripture’s Severe Portrait Of Sin

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah, Cliff, when sin stays in the shadows, undefined, it can grow into something monstrous within our imagination.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

But scripture never teaches that there is a category of repentant believer who sins overpowered Christ. And folks, not at all. The cross was not a partial solution, folks, it was a decisive victory.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

All right, let's flip now to the other side. Let's talk about underestimating sin. Folks, if sin is just a mistake, if sin is just a matter of poor judgment, if sin is not living up to your potential, then why the cross? Why the shed blood of Jesus? Why the Son of God enduring the wrath? Remember, Romans chapter 3 and verse 23 tells us, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 6, 23 also tells us, for the wages of sin is death, not inconvenience, not discomfort, death. And then you think about what Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus, Ephesians chapter 2. It sharpens it even further. He says, And you were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once walked. He said, Dead, not sick, not struggling, but dead.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

And Jonathan, in each one of those verses, Paul removes any illusion whatsoever that we could possibly fix our own self.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

No, and what's so amazing about this, Cliff, is scripture does not describe salvation as rehabilitation. It describes it as resurrection, dead to life.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yes, sir. Folks, let's do something here. Let's look at the two of this topic, one on top of the other. If you overestimate sin, you'll constantly wonder if you're truly forgiven. If you underestimate sin, you'll constantly wonder if you've ever done enough. In the first case, where you're overestimating sin, you doubt Christ's sufficiency. In the second case, when you underestimate sin, folks, you trust your own sufficiency.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

But when you see sin clearly, when you acknowledge that it is devastating, condemning, and truly lethal, and then you see that Christ addressed that exact problem decisively once for all, then assurance finally rests on something solid, the solid foundation that is Jesus Christ. And until we grasp, as Jack talks about here in this chapter, the depth of our sin, we will never fully understand the magnitude cliff of our salvation. Never will. All right, segment two. Let's talk about how the sin uh that we are describing here today is um the seriousness of that sin, the way it's described in scripture. So for segment two, if segment one was all about turning on the lights, right? Defining sin clearly, this in this next part is where Wilkie is going to ask us to actually look at the biblical record and see how seriously God treats it. Okay. And this is for me, I don't know about you, Cliff, but this was for me where the chapter uh touched uh home. It got a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yeah, because here we go from talking theory, because we're not talking theory anymore. We can throw that out the window. No, here we're talking about actual biblical records of events.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

You're you're exactly right. Real moments in redemptive history, real consequences, real judgment. And Wilkie here basically says if you want to understand sin properly, don't start with your feelings. Listen to that. Don't start with your feelings. I know that that goes opposite of what the world tells you. Don't start with your feelings, start with scripture. And scripture does not present sin as minor. Um, he he points first. I think it's amazing here. Uh, Wilkie points first to the flood in Genesis chapter six. And I want for us just a moment to see how the text describes humanity. Okay. Genesis chapter six says this the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Folks, that is comprehensive language. Every intention, only evil continually.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

And Jonathan, we're not talking about this as in little groups of bad people here, there, and everywhere. No, sir. We're talking about total corruption across the board.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah, uh sin just all across the board continually, right? And what follows that is global judgment. Now, think about that. If sin were minor, the flood would have been truly excessive. But if sin is rebellion against God's infinite holiness, then the judgment, the response should not be surprising, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

And then Wilkie doesn't end with just this one example, Jonathan, not at all, because what he does next is he moves it forward to Egypt.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah, what a great uh illustration here from the scripture. Um, the plagues in Exodus, right? Pharaoh, we we know that he hardens his heart repeatedly. Uh, and each time the consequences they step up, they intensify, right? And this is not God just being randomly cruel, it is escalating confrontation between divine authority and human pride. And then comes one of the most, I think, unsettling accounts in Leviticus chapter 10. I know when I was a kid and reading this for the first time, Cliff, you talked about the hebie jeebies. Uh, when I think about Nadab and Abihu, right? They offer unauthorized fire before the Lord, and immediately what happens? Fire comes out from before the Lord and consumes them.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Now, this is one event that I can remember that whenever I would teach this part of Leviticus in the past, people said it made them very uncomfortable as well, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

They're right, it does. And the reason why is because we tend to think, well, listen, man, they were just trying, they were trying their best. But listen, good intentions have never been able to override God's holiness. Sin is not just immoral behavior, it's approaching God on our own terms. And he takes that a step further with another Old Testament character, Uzzah, right? Uh, in 2 Samuel chapter 6. This is another one that got my attention as a kid, right? You have the Ark of the Covenant, and it's being transported incorrectly. The oxen, they stumbled, right? And Uzza, who I think with good intentions, reaches out to steady it, and guess what? He dies. The issue wasn't sincerity, it was obedience.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

And there is a common thread that runs through all of these examples here, folks, and that is sin isn't treated lightly, even when it looks to us like it's something small.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

And then Cliff Wilkie goes from the Old Testament, right, to the New Testament, Acts chapter 5, which tells us uh the narrative of Ananias and Sapphira, right? They lie uh about their integrity before God and man, and what happens? They both fall dead. You know, and and and the idea is that holiness still matters.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Yeah, and and and this action happened under the new covenant when the church was basically still very young, Jonathan.

The Law As Mirror Not Medicine

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah, the new covenant, uh that's what we live in, right? And Wilkie's argument is that if we're gonna understand assurance properly, we must first understand what sin truly deserves, okay? Not what culture says, not what we feel within our heart, but what scripture demonstrates. Because when you see how seriously, Cliff, that God treats sin from Genesis to Revelation, if you see how seriously God treats sin throughout Scripture, then you'll stop asking, Well, have I done enough? And you'll start asking, What has Christ done? And that's where assurance shifts then from performance to promise. And with that, we'll move on to segment three. And now we begin to talk about the law and something that makes us really uncomfortable, and that is our own human inability. So after walking through those moments in biblical history, uh, we talked about the flood, Nadab, and Abihu, Uzzah, uh, Ananias, and Sapphira in the New Testament, Wilkie then shifts the focus. And he essentially asks a very important question. If sin is this serious, and it is, how were people ever going to stand before a holy God?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

And that really is the tension of the entire Bible, isn't it? Because once you come to accept that God is holy, and I mean absolutely, truly holy, and you understand that sin is deadly serious, there's no way you can just move on casually. It really and truthfully leads you to one very specific question that you must ask yourself. What hope is there for anyone? Because if the standard really is perfection, Jonathan, then folks, I have news for you. We're all in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

That's exactly right, Cliff. And that's where the law of Moses comes into play. But many assume the law was given as a path to earn righteousness, like a divine checklist. But Wilkie makes it clear that that was never its function.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

And that leaves many to ask: if law wasn't like a ladder to climb into heaven, then what was it? Because that's how a lot of people still think about it. They imagine the law as like a performance system.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, listen to just Romans 3 and verse 20. It says, For by works of law, no human being will be justified in his sight, that being God's sight, since to the law comes knowledge of sin. So again, the law doesn't remove guilt, it reveals it.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

So it is diagnostic, it's not curative. If you misunderstand that, you you start believing the law was God's way of saying, well, just try harder. But Paul is saying the law was God's way of saying, see clearly.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Exactly. It's a mirror, not a medicine. That's a great way to think about it. A mirror, not a medicine. Think about it. You don't use a mirror to wash your face, you use it to see what you need to wash, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:37

And when you read Leviticus honestly, you cannot help but feel that weight. The commands are so detailed, Jonathan. The standards are so exact, the sacrifices are constant. The more you read, the more you cannot help but realize how short you would fall if you were living under that.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yeah. Sacrifice after sacrifice, blood after blood. I mean, Hebrews tells us that those sacrifices could never fully take away our sin. They reminded people of sin.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Over and over again, the law keeps pressing the same message. You are not sufficient, you are not righteous on your own. And let's be honest here, that does nothing but make you uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

No, it does make you uncomfortable, but uh Cliff, it's necessary. The law shows a standard, it shows our failures, but doesn't supply the power to overcome either.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And you know, modern Christians still drift back into law thinking. They start, if I could just have a strong week spiritually, then I would feel secure. If I struggle, I feel distant. If I fail, I feel condemned. What does this kind of thinking tell us that we're still measuring ourselves by how we perform?

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, that we talked about it, right? That performance-based assurance. But again, if assurance rises and falls with your weekly obedience, um, if if you have a score based off of your obedience and your assurance rises and falls off of that score, you're never going to feel stable.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

And Jonathan, do you know how exhausting that is? I mean, you end up constantly recalculating your standard before God all the time. All I can say is if you're not good in mad, you better get good because it will be something that is nothing but constant spiritual accounting all the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah, Romans chapter 7 really truly captures that frustration with the Apostle Paul. He says, I have a desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

And when he cries out, wretched man that I am, who will deliver us from this body of death, you can just hear the desperation in Paul's voice. He's not asking for better discipline. No, this is a voice of one desperately reaching out for rescue.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

And the answer, good folks, isn't to just try harder. No, the answer is Romans 7.25, where Paul then you can just hear the relief. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. The law diagnoses Christ delivers.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

So the reality is the law exposes that monster. And you might say, this is great. But unfortunately, even though the monster is exposed, the law doesn't defeat it. The law shows the depth of the problem, but it cannot resurrect you.

But God: Mercy And New Life

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Exactly. Assurance does not grow out of personal consistency. No, folks, it grows out of Christ's all-sufficiency. All right. Um, segment four here. Uh, we're gonna talk about uh Ephesians chapter two in just a moment and some other things, but the the idea here is but God, and you'll understand that as we go forward here. So we felt the weight of our sin, we've seen the impossibility of self-righteousness under the law. We've acknowledged that if salvation depended on performance, that none of us would stand. And then Scripture gives us two words that changes everything, but God.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

And the true value of those two to pull words only land if, and there's that word if again, you really understand and absorb the words that comes before them.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Yeah, exactly. Ephesians chapter two. Um, it doesn't begin with hope. Uh, it begins with a diagnosis, right? Listen to this: you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked. Again, we said this earlier, dead, not morally bruised, not spiritually fatigued, but dead.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

And that description, folks, it strips away any illusion that we might have of being mostly fine, or that we really might need is just just just just a few minor corrections.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, and then verse four interrupts that reality. But God, being rich in mercy because of the great love which He has loved us, those words, Cliff, they don't debate our condition, they respond to it.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And the initiative is everything, because if the solution starts with me, assurance depends on me. But if it starts with God, then assurance rests somewhere far more stable.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah, and you think about then verse five. Uh you look a little forward to verse five, it says, even when we were dead in our trespasses, uh, he that being Jesus made us alive together uh through Christ. And then that famous phrase, right? By grace you have been saved. Notice the timing. Even when, not after improvement, not like, hey, I I made some steps towards God, and at that point he did it. No, it it starts with God. It starts with God, and in that moment we were dead.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

So please understand this, folks. Grace isn't God rewarding momentum, it's God acting mercy towards the helpless.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Yes, yes, yes. And this is where I think for many Christians it is where your assurance can begin to stabilize, Cliff. If salvation is resurrection, not rehabilitation, if it's truly resurrection, then it never depended on my consistency to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

But people can affirm that theology and still emotionally feel like they need to earn their place.

The Prodigal: Receiving Restoration

SPEAKER_01 27:38

No, I mean, that's right. I've been there. I would imagine you've been there. And that's where this chapter um pivots from doctrine to story. Um, what does mercy, Cliff, look like when it moves? What does grace begin to look like when it runs? Wait, what? When it runs? Yeah, because scripture doesn't just describe grace in some fancy theological language. No, listen, folks, it shows us uh a living example in Luke chapter 15. If you have your Bible, you're welcome to look here with us. Luke chapter 15. You have a son, Cliff, who squandered everything. You have a father who saw him from a distance. And instead of waiting on, I gotta have an apology, no, he ran.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Oh, yes. The story we know is it's the prodigal son. But Jonathan, that story exposes something else. It's not just about rebellion and forgiveness, it's about whether the son will live like he's restored or keep trying to earn a servant's position.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Exactly. And you think about it, the son, man, he's rehearsing it, isn't he? Uh I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants, right? He's still thinking again in that performance language. And the father interrupts him robe, ring, sandals, feast, not well, let me put you on probation and see how you've changed and start to act. No, it's restoration.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

It is extremely interesting, Jonathan. When you think about it here, if Ephesians 2 gives us the theology of but God, then Luke 15, it gives us the picture.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah, and then I think Cliff, that's where assurance for me and I think for many people, that's where it becomes personal. The question is no longer just did God act? The question becomes, will I live like he did? And let's let's walk into that story now as we move into segment five. Um, we're gonna be talking about now the prodigal and the refusal of grace. All right, Luke chapter 15. As Cliff said, if Ephesians chapter 2 gives us the doctrine of but God, Luke 15 gives us this emotional anatomy of what mercy looks like when it meets a sinner. And this, folks, isn't just a story about rebellion. No, it's a story about how hard it is to receive grace.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

And that's what makes this parable so unsettling, Johnson, because on the surface, it feels like rebellion, repentance, and restoration. But when you slow it down, you realize the real tension isn't whether the father will forgive. The tension is whether the son truly understands the father at all.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah. And the younger son demands his inheritance early. He takes off, he gets out of Dodge, right? He wastes everything, he collapses into poverty, and then the text says, and I love this, he he came to himself.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, and that phrase reveals clarity and not just regret. He sees the lie that he believed. Life apart from the father would be freedom. But even in that clarity, he still misunderstands grace.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Yeah, and as we said, he kind of, and I just can imagine him, you know, preparing this speech in his mind. Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants. Again, a very sincere uh spiel that he's giving his father, but that last line, Cliff, it exposes the problem. He believes that his restoration must be earned.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah, he's no longer defiant, but he's still transactional. He assumes sonship is permanently forfeited, and that the only way back is through performance. That is textbook law thinking. And in all reality, that is where many believers find themselves as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

And the cool part is here is where the father just shatters that entire framework, folks. Says uh in Luke 15 that while he uh was still a long way off, listen to this, his father saw him and felt compassion. And then we talked about that running thing, right? The father grace runs.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

You know, that the that that detail has always been stunning to me because if you understood the time frame, folks, patriarchs didn't run. To run meant he had to lift his robe, which means he would be absorbing shame publicly. And the father was willing to absorb in dignity to restore the son. And that is before the son proves anything to the father.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And as we said, then the son begins his confession, right? Father, I have sinned. And before he finishes the servant clause, you got the father interrupting him, right? And as we said, the robe, the ring, the sandals, the feast, again, not probation, restoration. So beautiful, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yes, it is. And the father refuses to let him downgrade himself. He will not allow his identity to shrink to servant. That interruption is grace redefining reality.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah, and this again is where this assurance becomes so deeply personal because some Christians they're forgiven, but they resist the joy of that forgiveness. They cling to their shame, and I'll tell you why, because it feels safer than celebration.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, it's almost as if self-punishment proves sincerity, Jonathan. But refusing the father's embrace is not humility, is it? No, it's distrust of the verdict.

The Older Brother And Performance

SPEAKER_01 34:41

And then this is the part that I think sometimes people overlook is the older brother, right, Cliff? I mean, the older brother enters, right? He stayed while the other brother was off in his righteous living, right? He he worked, he obeyed, yet his heart is transactional. I've served you all these years. That's slave language, not son language.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

What you see is that one son tries to earn restoration after rebellion, and the other son tries to secure identification through obedience. And by doing so, both of them misunderstands grace. Both are operating under the law.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, and then the father says to the older brother, son, you're always with me. And all that is mine is yours. Again, that's assurance language rooted in relationship, not record.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

And Jonathan, this parable confronts us with another question. When the father runs, when the robe is placed, when the feast is prepared, will we come inside? Or will we stand outside calculating our worth?

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Yeah, think about it this way, folks. Assurance is not pretending that your sin wasn't serious, it's believing that mercy is decisive. It's trusting that when God says you are mine, that he means it. All right. Uh segment six. Oh man, the older brother and the performance trap. All right. If the younger brother, Cliff shows us the fear of disqualification, the older brother shows us something just as subtle. Uh, the fear of being overlooked. Uh, think about it. This guy, he never left, he never squandered anything. On the surface, man, he looks steady. But when the grace erupts for his brother, something inside this brother tightens, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Yeah, because now everything feels uneven. He stayed, he worked, he obeyed, and suddenly the spotlight is on the one who failed.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah. And his language, just listen to it. Again, all these years I served you, I never disobeyed. Um, like the uh rich young ruler, right? We talked about him a couple episodes ago. That's that uh resume language. Like here it is. Um, that's someone quietly building a case, and what it reveals is that obedience had slowly in his mind become his currency.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah, he wasn't just being faithful, was he? He was measuring up all of his actions.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Yeah, and that's what makes this to me, and I think to Jack and yourself so uh relevant to our conversation here, because there are believers uh who don't struggle with dramatic failure, they struggle with this quiet calculation, they measure consistency, they measure discipline, and over time their assurance will attach itself to this performance instead of identity.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Folks, please understand that when grace is given freely, it destabilizes that system. Because if grace isn't proportional, then what was all the measuring for?

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, and this doesn't mean we're not saying that obedience doesn't matter, right, Cliff? We're not saying that. Because it does. But the older brother wasn't resting in sonship, he was relying on his track record. And when track record becomes your foundation, listen, grace will start to feel threatening instead of beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

It's interesting, Jonathan. When you place the two brothers side by side, the younger brother felt unworthy to come home. The older brother felt unworthy enough to resist grace.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Yeah, I mean, the the fact that the older brother he looked at himself and he felt like he didn't need the grace, he could resist the grace is such a powerful contrast. One overestimated his failure, the other overestimated his faithfulness, and both completely just misunderstood the heart of their father because the father didn't respond to either one of them with a spreadsheet. Um, instead, he responded to them, Cliff, with a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

And I think that's where this becomes uncomfortable for longtime Christians too, Jonathan, because performance can make one feel safe. Remember that checkbox type mentality that we've spoken of before, you can track it, you can you can evaluate it and identify it as more humbling in their mind.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Yeah, think about identity, because that's what we're talking about here. Identity means you're secure because you are a son or a daughter, not because you're consistent. And if you again, if you build your assurance on consistency, then tell me what's going to happen when you stumble? It it shakes more than it should. Um, because again, the foundation wasn't grace, it was record.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

What this shows, Jonathan, is that the older brother isn't just angry, is he? No, he is insecure.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

I I think that you're very right about that, Cliff. And his obedience, when you think about it here, had become his leverage. And when that leverage vanishes, anxiety surfaces. And that's why this chapter, I think, uh matters for faithful Christians, because sometimes our quietest fear isn't, have I sinned too much? It's have I done enough. And both questions reveal the same misunderstanding that sonship uh is given rather than earned.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

You know, and the father's response demantles both fears. He doesn't reduce the younger brother, and he doesn't reward the older brother based on comparison. He reminds them both of the term relationship.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, you think about the phrase, you are always with me. All that I have is yours. That's not transactional, that's relational. And again, when assurance rests in relationship instead of performance, there is steadiness, there is stability, not because you ignore obedience, but because clearly obedience is no longer carrying the weight of your identity. All right, with that in mind, uh Cliff, uh, any other thoughts on this idea here, the brothers and the father and the the eye to the prodigal. Any thoughts you have on that?

SPEAKER_00 42:32

No, Jonathan, whenever you start thinking about the beauty of what the father did, that is just that ought to make every Christian out there understand and know the love and the grace that he has for us.

Living From Security Not Toward It

SPEAKER_01 42:48

I think you're exactly right. All right, segment seven, kind of just putting all this together in one nice organized uh pile, so to speak. If we step back and look at everything we've talked about, uh the younger brother, the older brother, the father, Ephesians chapter two, Romans chapter eight. Cliff, I think the question becomes very personal. Are we living from security or are we living toward it? Okay, because those are two very different postures.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

That's such uh an important destination, a distinction, I'm sorry, because living toward security feels like striving. Living from security feels like resting and then responding.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yes, and I think many, uh many uh sincere Christians would say they believe they're secure, but the way they live suggests they're they're still trying to earn somehow their stability. Uh, they serve out of Anxiety, they obey out of fear, they measure themselves constantly. And over time, man, that that kind of Christianity can become very exhausting. And I'll add this, Cliff. I know of many people who have left the faith because they just they burn out.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

Yeah, because think about it for a moment, Jonathan. Fear is a heavy fuel source. There is no doubt about it that it'll get you up and moving, but it certainly won't sustain joy.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

No, exactly. And when when obedience, when your obedience to God is primarily driven by fear, um, fear of losing something, fear of disappointing God, uh beyond repair, fear of condemnation, then the Christian life cliff begins to feel very fragile. And when obedience on the other side, on the other hand, when it flows from gratitude and from confidence that the verdict has already been spoken, then something changes. There's steadiness, there's freedom.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

And that doesn't make holiness optional. It actually depends it, or because now listen, obedience isn't about protecting status, it's about loving the one who secures it.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, you you mentioned that deepening it. Um that's so important. Assurance doesn't produce carelessness, it produces gratitude. And when you know that you are secure, you don't drift, you draw near to God. And that's what we all need to be doing is drawing nearer to God. And that's that's the correction I think, Cliff, that this chapter really offers us. Not again, Jack Wilkie, Jonathan Sanford, Cliff Thompson. We're not minimizing sin. Please don't think that. Uh, we're not pretending that it doesn't matter, but we're placing it right where Scripture places it. And where it's at is underneath the finished work of Christ Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

And that means the final word over the believer is not failure, is not fear, is not probation, it's grace. Amen. And when we finally let that be true, not just a theory, but in how we actually live, the quiet anxiety that so many faithful Christians carry begins to loosen its grip.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

All right, Cliff, how about this? Let's tie a bow on this one here and give it to folks to take home and reflect on here today. Um, I think as we close this episode, this fourth episode of Scripture Matter, it's worth saying uh something very plainly to everybody out there. Maybe this is your fourth episode. I hope that you've watched all three before and you're watching today. Um the goal of this chapter is not to leave anyone out there uh sitting underneath the weight of their sin. That's the goal. It's also to help us see clearly enough that if we can, we just have to stop misjudging it, Cliff.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

You know, because when sin is undefined, it grows in imagination. But when it's defined by Scripture, it can place exactly where God has placed it beneath the cross. And that changes the emotional tone of the Christian's life. Because if sin is beneath the cross, then it's not just hanging over your head, it's not waiting to resurface as a final verdict. It's been addressed.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yes, and again, that doesn't make repentance optional. We still repent. I mean, we still uh have issues and from time to time. It doesn't make holiness casual, it doesn't mean that we as a believer uh that that we just wafe uh in our obedience and our holiness. But here's what it does mean: it means that a believer's posture toward God is not this fear-based survival, um, it's relational confidence. And for many Christians, Cliff, I think that can really change your way of life.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

I do too. It really is, because when assurance settles it, obedience becomes grateful rather than anxious, prayer becomes open rather than cautious, and worship becomes free rather than restrained.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

And maybe to me and you, Cliff, that's the most important takeaway from this entire chapter. If you've been living out there with this quiet anxiety, wondering if you're secure enough, that you're steady enough, consistent enough, uh, this isn't a call to try harder. It's a call for you to reflect upon what Christ has already accomplished.

Final Encouragements And Weekly CTA

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yes, for sure. And to trust that God's verdict over those who are in Christ is not fragile like we've talked about before. It's not temporary, it is not conditional or emotional strength. It it rests on his mercy and on his complete promises.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

So, uh, as the chapter talks about here, grasp the depth of your sin, okay? Not to dwell on it, but to measure it properly. And then what you do is you measure it next to the depth of God's mercy.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

The best part, Jonathan, is that when those proportions are right, assurance doesn't feel arrogant, assurance feels faithful.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Amen to that. All right. Well, that's gonna bring us to the end of our review of chapter three of Jack Wilkie's book, You Are Saved, A Christian's Assurance. We've been talking about here today, grasping the depth of our sin. Cliff, before we close up shop today, any final thoughts on what has just been, and we knew this was gonna be maybe the toughest chapter that we cover here. Any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 50:25

You know, Jonathan, I was speaking to a young Christian just this week. They said that they were scared and doubted their salvation because of sin you spoke about earlier. What if they had a bad thought and died? What if they didn't repent of a sin and died? And are they going to go to hell? If this is you and you find yourself with this same doubt, then folks, this chapter is most definitely for you. If you forget everything else that Jonathan and I have spoken about here today, this podcast, please remember this it is not about us and what we can do to earn our salvation. It is all about Jesus Christ and the price he paid so that we might be assured of our salvation.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yeah, Cliff, we've talked about this from the very beginning. This isn't easy believism. This is simply trusting in what God has done for us through his son Jesus Christ. And it's a beautiful thing if you can learn to rely on Christ's finished work. By grace, you have been saved through faith uh in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And so uh there you have it, folks. Uh, episode four of Scripture Matters. We'll put that one in the record books. But let me close today and say if today's conversation has made you even just a little uh more assured of your salvation, uh, then man, Cliff, you and I, we're just overjoyed, right? Amen on that. Uh don't forget, you can catch a whole new episode of Scripture Matters every Friday, every Friday afternoon at 3 30 p.m. Uh so I hope that you'll join us next time for our next episode of Scripture Matters right here on YouTube and Facebook as well as Apple Podcasts. Until next time, though, folks, remember Scripture Matters. Goodbye, everybody.