Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 8 (Jack Wilkie Interview)

This is our 8th episode of “Scripture Matters,” which marks the half-way point in our study of Jack Wilkie’s latest book, “You Are Saved - A Christian's Assurance." We sit down with the author and evangelist to gain further insight into his thoughts regarding God's Word and the assurance of salvation that many Christians are lacking.

We hit the halfway mark of Jack Wilkie’s book and slow down to press deeper into why so many Christians doubt their salvation. We talk through sin, grace, faith, and the finished work of Jesus so we can learn to see ourselves the way God sees us:

• why “once saved barely saved” thinking wrecks peace
• how overcorrecting against cheap grace creates constant fear
• why misunderstanding sin makes it feel bigger
• the turning point of “But God” in Ephesians 2
• why refusing to say “I know I’m saved” can signal mistrust
• image bearing and relationship with God instead of performance
• the prodigal son and refusing the Father’s embrace
• what “It Is Finished” really means for assurance
• why forgiveness has no asterisk and no hidden fees
• old covenant sins covered vs new covenant sins taken away
• Hebrews 10 and the priest who stands vs Christ who sits
• a clear definition of biblical faith as trusting obedience
• encouragement for weak faith and “help my unbelief”
• walking in the light as confession not perfection
• assurance while fighting repeat sins without giving up

Don’t forget we have new episodes that comes out of Scriptural Matters that drops every Friday afternoon at 3 30 on YouTube, Facebook, and also all of the major podcast platforms.

To view, Jack Wilkie's debate with Jeremiah Nortier, regarding the essentiality of baptism, check out the link below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRCL5QGzZ3U

Transcript

Halfway Point And Guest Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:08

We've officially hit the halfway mark in this book.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Six chapters in. And if you've been walking through this with us, you know this hasn't exactly been surface level stuff that we've been working through.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

No, you're exactly right. We've wrestled with doubt. We've talked about assurance. We've looked at the tension between grace and obedience.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

And honestly, some of it has probably pushed people a little bit outside of their comfort zone.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And that's exactly why we felt like this was the right moment to pause.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, not at the end, but right here in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Because before we move forward, uh, we want to take what we've seen in these first six chapters and actually press into it just a little deeper.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

We want to ask some questions. We want to clarify some things, maybe even challenge a few ideas. But instead of just doing that on our own, we thought, why not bring in the one person who's been shaping this conversation from the very beginning?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

So today, here at the halfway point, we are joined by the author himself, Brother Jack Wilkie. Right here on Scripture Matters, let's get into it. This is Scripture Matters, a podcast produced and published in cooperation with the Waters Road Church of Christ. If you live in the Houston area and need a church home, Waters Road is the place where you belong. If you need more information about Waters Road, check out their website at www.wrc.org. Our thanks each week goes out to Richard Tube for the behind-the-scenes help in producing each episode, as well as to our wives and families for supporting us in this effort. And now let's get back to another episode of Scripture Matters.

Why Assurance Feels So Hard

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Well, good folks, we are excited about today's conversation. Jack Wilkie, welcome to Scripture Matters. We really appreciate you taking this time with us right here at the halfway point of the book.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Well, thank you guys. I'm excited you're studying the book, and uh just I love talking about it with people. Obviously, uh wrote a whole book on it, so I'm happy to talk about it some more.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Yeah, Jack, this has been a really meaningful study for us and for a lot of folks who have been following along. We've been working through these first six chapters, and I think it's safe to say this isn't one of those books you just read and move on from.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I was really hoping to write the kind of book that people would read and think I need to share this with so-and-so. Share this with your friend, with a family member, with a church family member, and so uh that's that's my aim for it.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

And Jack, that's really why we wanted to have you right here in the middle of this, because right now we're not looking back at the whole book. As we've said, we're only six chapters in. We're we're right in the middle uh of working through it. So, what we'd like to do here on today's episode of Scripture Matters is take some time to talk with you about some of the things that we've seen uh so far in this book and kind of press into them uh a little bit with you.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Sure, yeah, I'm happy to. And uh like I said, uh I'm very passionate about these topics. They're things that Christians need to hear about. A lot of Christians haven't heard about, and so I'm very excited to dig in a little bit deeper with you guys.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Well, Jack, let me let me start right here. Early in the book, you paint a really vivid picture of Christians who who basically live with a kind of uncertainty about their salvation. You even bring up questions like, What if I forgot a sin? What if I die before I ask for forgiveness? Let me ask, why do you think that mindset is so common, even among people who have been Christians for years?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

I think we've done a really good job teaching against bad ideas like cheap grace and the idea, oh, you know, once saved, always saved. God can just, you know, whatever you do, it doesn't matter. And we teach against that, saying, No, what you do actually does matter, and and you need to bear fruit and all those kinds of things. But sometimes the correction becomes an overcorrection, and the next thing you know, people are looking at their their feet with every footstep, going, Am I wrong? Am I off? Am I missing something here? And so again, it's one of those we've just got to be careful not to overcorrect because you don't want it, you don't want to fall in the ditch of, hey, do whatever you want and everybody goes to heaven, but you also don't want to go to the other ditch of nobody goes to heaven, right? And and so it's striking that balance.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And let me kind of, I guess, follow up with that a little bit. You you make the point that scripture speaks with a lot of confidence and a lot of clarity on this subject, but that's I mean, we're being honest here, that's not the way a lot of Christians feel. And where do you think that uh let's say disconnect, where do you think that disconnect happens? Is it is it just a misunderstanding of scripture or is it something deeper maybe in in how we view God?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

I think sometimes people there there are people who don't know those verses. Uh, and so with them, you just kind of have to introduce them to them. Other times you do know those, and people think, well, that's for somebody better than me. That's for the apostle Paul to say that he knows, you know, he's run the race and and there's a crown waiting for him. That's for Peter and for those guys. They can know, but I I couldn't ever know. And then as you said about misunderstanding God, uh that ultimately is what it ends up as is missing God. But I I do think when people read those verses, they just think that couldn't possibly be me when they were meant for all of us to read, for every Christian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Well, Jack, that kind of leads me right into something I wanted to ask you. A lot of authors talk about being inspired to write a book, but this one feels like it's more come out of a maybe a burden on your heart. Was there something you kept seeing, maybe either in conversation, maybe in your teaching, maybe in ministry that made you say, yeah, this needs to be addressed.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, you know, in ministry, you do the nursing home visits, you're you're you sit with people as they're dying sometimes, and man, nothing would break your heart more than to hear those quips of lifelong Christians saying, I hope I've done enough. I I just I hope I go to heaven, I hope he lets me in, things like that. And it's it's like, no, it it's you should know. It's okay. It's okay to be confident. God wants you to be confident, he loves you. You're gonna see him very, you know, like they're on uh people again on their deathbed, and like, hey, you need to be excited for this. Yeah, there's always uncertainty and fear in that, but that as a Christian, sure, you should have confidence.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

You know, I think that's really helpful because I I can really feel it as I read it for the first time and now multiple times, I can kind of really feel that through the first few chapters that we're not just talking about information here, that that you're really trying to correct something that for a lot of people has been off for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, uh for a long time. And this is when I speak to people about the topic of the book, I hear a lot of people saying, I'm glad you're writing on that, because I've struggled with that. I know people that struggle with that, people in my church struggle with that. It's it's something that is incredibly common, unfortunately.

Facing Sin Without Overcorrecting

SPEAKER_01 7:50

You you talk about the sin problem, and and that's what we want to talk about now. Uh and I Jack, one of the places I felt like really where the book started to kind of press into my heart a little bit is when you started to talk about how we uh understand sin.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

You know, and this is where things start to shift a little bit. Because instead of just talking about assurance, you really begin to deal with the why so many people struggle to feel assurance in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Right. Sin, the thing about it is we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, right? Romans 3 23. Therefore, this is a problem we all have, and knowing how to categorize it, knowing what God thinks about it, knowing where we stand with it, if you if you're not rock solid on that, you're gonna lack assurance because the problem is there.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Cliff and I got a real kick out of some of the illustrations that you've already used in the first six chapters, and I can't wait for everybody else to see the rest. But one of my favorite illustrations so far in the book is the illustration of sin, almost being kind of like that monster in a movie that um when it's unclear, right, it feels overwhelming. But when you actually begin to kind of define it, it becomes something that you understand a little better. Uh help kind of walk us through that a little bit, if you don't mind, Jack. Uh how how does misunderstanding sin actually I guess make it feel bigger than it really is?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, you think about Jaws or something like that, is what I had in mind, where you go most of the movies. Yeah, there's the the intimidating music, right? And and it's building up, and you're thinking, man, what is this thing? And then you see it and you're like, that's it, you know. But on the other hand, with sin, you look at it and it is ugly, it is terrifying what it can do, and and all of those things, but at least you know what like what the battle is at that point. Whereas when you don't really understand the cost of sin and the the weight of sin and all of that, in your mind it can get bigger or it can be too small. And and so you really need to face sin for what it really is if you're gonna understand how we've overcome that.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

And and this is where you really challenge the way that a lot of people think, Jack, because most of us are used to hearing that the problem is not taking sin seriously enough, but you actually say that for some Christians, the issue is overestimating their sin. Can you explain what you mean by that, Jack?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, it's definitely both of those things can happen. And I it's very good to guard against underestimating our sin, but the, oh, I could never be good enough, or God, God, He can't forgive me, those kind of phrases tell you you don't understand, yes, sin is dire, the wages of sin is death and all that, but that price was paid. That's you know the beauty of being a Christian, is even at no matter how costly sin is, God, God knows that.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

And I wonder sometimes, Jack, is that not where this kind of uncertainty kind of originates from, where somebody feels like, hey, no matter what I do, uh, no matter how hard I try, I'm just like at one small step away from being lost for an eternity.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

It is. It's you know, we we don't like once saved, always saved, right? I think that's unbiblical, but we go to the other side of once saved, barely saved. Once saved, that that you're just or that you're constantly moving in and out of your salvation. Every time you sin, you lose your salvation, you ask for forgiveness, you get it back. It doesn't work that way. And and so with sin, it is bad. You don't want to live in sin, you don't want to go on in sin, as Hebrews talks about, but you still like it's it's not a constant in and out of salvation.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Jack, you also highlighted something that really stands out. And Jonathan and I, we talked about it a lot. Those two words in Ephesians chapter two, but God. Now, why is that such a turning point? Not just in this passage, but in how someone moves from fear to assurance.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

It acknowledges the weight of the problem, right? Everything that he says before that is very bad, right? You were uh basically uh aligned with Satan, essentially, is what he's saying, and that you were destined for wrath and that you deserved punishment, is what it's saying. It's not downplaying the problem, it it illustrates it, it says it perfectly, and then it says, but God did something about it. But God is rich in mercy, God, you know, through Jesus raised us with him, and so he's he's handled the problem. It's not ignoring the problem, it's it facing it head on and saying, but there is a solution in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

You make a statement uh in this section that I think would honestly surprise a lot of people that when a Christian refuses to say,

But God And Resting In Sonship

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I know I'm saved, that it's not humility, it's actually a lack of trust in what God has said. And I gotta be honest with you, I looked back to my childhood, uh, I looked back to my early faith as a newborn babe in Christ. That actually went against the way myself and I think a lot of people, the way that we were taught, can you kind of help unpack that for us a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah, when I preach on this, I've had the privilege to speak various places. I always start by asking, can you raise your hand and whether or not I get a show of hands, can you say I am saved 100%? And can you say I'm righteous 100%? It feels uncomfortable. Even for me, it feels uncomfortable to say those things of yes, I know, but it's why you're able to say that. And it's not because of you, it's because of Christ. And so everybody, well, if you're listening to this, hopefully you can say that and realize it's not arrogance, it's not on you, it's because of him.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Jack, let me go back to something you said earlier in the book that I told Jonathan that really hit home with me. You described us as image bearers. Now, we're created for a relationship with God. Can you explain on that a little bit or expand on it a little bit? I mean, because it seems like if we miss that one point, we start to reduce everything to performance instead of a relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah, I mean, it just takes you right back to the beginning that God created us to walk with him, to have a relationship with him, to know him. And when Adam and Eve sinned, it wasn't God just flipped the switch off, like, all right, I'm done with them. I don't care. Like he wants all of us to have that relationship. He wants us to be with him for eternity. And and so with all of this, God is not a mean judge. God's not dispassionate, like, ah, good luck, you know, if you get to heaven, great. No, he's he's going out of his way to come rescue us.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

You know, this past Sunday, Jack, uh, Cliff and I, Waters Road, we we had our 56 homecoming. And back a couple months ago, I was studying as to what I wanted to present for this year's homecoming. And right in the middle of reading your book, of course, you talk about the prodigal sons. So I preached on that this past Sunday morning. But I I love the fact you asked this question uh, what if the son had refused the father's embrace? Which was a question that I had really never thought about. How often are Christians are are are they living in that space kind of where forgiveness has been offered, but they're just still just convinced that they've got to earn their way back?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

He had hit rock bottom, which is good. That's that that needs to happen. But when the father lifts him out of rock bottom with his grace and welcoming him back, it would be ridiculous for him to say, no, no, father, because remember, he had that speech prepared, right? I'm not worthy to be your son, just let me be one of your servants. And the father doesn't let him get through the speech. He cuts it off in the middle and says, My son's home, we're gonna have a feast, right? If he just kept going, no, no, father, let me finish. Just let me be a servant. That's what we're gonna do. I don't need a feast, that would be ridiculous. You you don't get to tell the father whether he's gonna give you grace or not. And I don't I'm not trying to guilt anyone, I don't think anyone realizes they're doing that, but you kind of are when you say, I don't, I'm not sure if I'm forgiven.

unknown 16:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

You know, it truly is a matter of having the proper perspective, Jack, of the sonship the Father, which is God in our case, has bestowed upon us. We don't earn sonship, it's simply given out by love, the Father, and we have to learn to rest in it.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah, it's it's one of those, if God says you're saved, you don't get extra points for saying, No, I'm not sure if I am. You don't, he doesn't look at it and go, Oh man, they're being really humble for saying, No, I'm not gonna accept the gift of of Christ. That's not it's not like he's mad at us when he says that, but he it's more of a I wish they would understand what's been done for them. I wish they would understand the the beauty of this gift when we can say those or we say those things about ourselves and so start saying, Yeah, I am saved. I I have confidence, I know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Jack, that's such a helpful way to frame it because it it basically shifts the focus away from just how we feel.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Yeah, I I and and what it does is it puts uh it

It Is Finished And No Asterisks

SPEAKER_01 17:10

puts the focus back on what God has actually said, right? And that as I read this, it really sets up uh us as readers for where you take us next, uh Jack, because from there you move into how we understand what Jesus actually accomplished for us.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, Jack, this is something that Jonathan and I felt kind of almost emotional about because you move into one of the most powerful statements in all the scriptures, those three words that Jesus spoke from the cross.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Yeah, it is finished. And when we uh when we talked about that a few weeks ago, Cliff and I just like like you said, it was very personal, very emotional for us. Uh, and there's so much to unpack from those three words. But when when Jesus said those uh three words, Jack, what in your view is the biggest thing that we as Christians maybe we misunderstand about what he meant?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

I think we just don't think about it enough, about what he was trying to accomplish. When he says it's finished, well, it's clear he had a mission. Well, what was his mission? Well, as he said, he you know came to give his life a ransom for many and to save sinners and all of those things the scriptures teach us. And so when he says it's finished, that means he job done. It's it the the debt's been paid, and he did what he came to do, which was to free us from our sins. And so again, just resting in that and saying, Man, when he said it was finished, I don't need to help him along with that. You know, finished means finished.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Jack, you bring uh up the example of Jeffrey Dahmer in this chapter. And that's one of that is that's one that really fog forces people, I guess, to say, to wrestle with this idea. Because most people would say, surely there has to be some kind of a limit. I mean, what were you trying to help people see through using Jeffrey Dahmer in that example?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

You know, I don't love the comparison game, but I think it helps people when you realize, or you can look at Paul, right? That he was uh getting Christians killed and things like that. You know, when they say, Well, I've done too much, I don't, I don't know that God could forgive me. Like, well, let's let's give some examples of other people he forgave and you know, let's let's see if you measure up. And I think that is kind of eye-opening for people to think, man, if uh and again, not to get too carried away with the comparison, but just realize there's no amount of sins that man can do that that puts us beyond Christ's blood and the power it had.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Jack, uh I think this is the point uh in the book where you make a statement that I understand a lot from the sporting world. I don't know, over the years there have been teams that have won championships and under circumstances that were a little bit different, and somebody said, Hey, put an asterisk by that one, right? And and you make the the statement that when scripture talks about forgiveness, there's no asterisk, right? Um, and no footnote that says some exclusions apply, right? Why is that, I think, just so hard for so many people out there to accept?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah, I was you starting talking about asterisk and sport. I thought, man, these guys are in Houston, they're gonna get in trouble with their audience there. But uh sorry. Uh it is hard for us to accept though, because again, it goes back to that thing. Well, but you don't know me, my sins, my I've got these problems, and like, but you don't understand. God, God knows all of that. God knew all of that from the beginning, God knew you were gonna do that, and and still Jesus died for you. And so we, I don't know, it just feels one of those like we're we're trying a little too hard to help God out here and and kind of cover for him. And it's like, no, no exclusions, no asterisks, none of those things, no limits uh to the the power of Jesus' blood to forgive.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

And Jack, you even take a step even further. You say that when we start thinking our sins are somehow possibly too much for God to forgive, that we're actually diminishing the sacrifice of Christ. Can you explain for our audience a little bit about that, please?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, it's it's kind of like I said with the prodigal thing. I don't think anyone is consciously doing this, and so I don't want to guilt them about it too much, but that is ultimately the implication of, well, I'm not sure God forgive me. Well, what do you think Jesus died for? You think he went through all of that for God to go or for the Father to say, Yeah, eh, still not enough, still didn't cover it. No, it covered it.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

You also draw uh a really important distinction between the old covenant and the new that uh under the law, sins were covered, right? But under Christ, they're taken away. And and we, as we talked about, hope that our our audience. Understood that that difference. Why is I think that difference so important for someone and able to help them understand assurance?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Yeah, it's you know, there they're your sins aren't just covered. It's not one of those God, like a grudge. You know, you sometimes you with a friend or somebody just brings up something from the past and you thought, oh man, I thought we had moved past that, but they kind of kept it in their back pocket until they need it. God doesn't do that. God, you know, it says he forgives for uh gives their sins and remembers them no more, is the beauty of this covenant.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

And Jack, you take the audience or your readers to Hebrews chapter 10, and you point out something that's really and truthfully easy to miss. That under the old covenant, the priest is always standing. Well, why is he standing? Because the work is never done. But Christ, he sat down. What does that image communicate, Jack?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Hebrews 10 is really powerful because it just tells you they had to keep doing the sacrifices over and over and over and over. And so because it was never enough to get rid of it. It again, it covered you, it got you through to the next year, but you had to come back. Whereas Jesus, it said, one sacrifice for all time. It just tells you once again the power that is in the blood, and uh that that it was enough. We don't need over and we don't need to add on top of it with our own stuff.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

You you use another, I think, brilliant illustration about somebody who uh almost wins something big, right? But then they find out uh after they've won that big thing that there are hidden costs afterward. And and you say with salvation, there are no hidden fees. And we talked about the prices right when we were uh on that episode, right? Somebody wins a new car, they get to the back, all right, sign this. This is the amount of tax you're oh no, I can't afford that, right? Why is it um why is that such an important uh idea for Christians to really grasp?

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, I mean, with the obedience and the things that you have to do, you do that because you want to afterwards. And and so it's not like a catch of all right, there's there's more for you to do. Again, it was paid in full. You you have the prize, you have the blessing. As John says, you have eternal life. We're looking forward to eternal life in one sense, but in another sense, you have it already in that peace that you have, in that walk with God that you have, and you should enjoy it. Like you stop waiting for the other shoe to drop.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

So, Jack, when someone truly understands what Jesus meant when he said, It is finished, what should actually change in the way that they live their life day to day?

SPEAKER_00 24:38

This is one that I I I I yeah, people might have a problem with this a little bit. We are always asking, Lord, forgive us for our sins, and that's a really good thing to do. Next time you pray, it changes, thank you, Lord, for forgiving my sins. You ask for the forgiveness and then acknowledge that they are. Because I think a lot of times we say, Well, God, please forgive us, and that's a good thing to ask, but remember it that you got it. Remember that it it happened. It kind of like the ten lepers, they all get healed, but only one returns to thank him. Thank him. Live like he did what you yeah, what you asked him to do because he promised he would. He's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. I I have no problem with that. I think that's beautiful, don't you, Cliff?

SPEAKER_02 25:15

I ever soon, yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Wow. All right. That uh that brings us,

Covered Under Law Taken Away

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I think, into the next part of the book because once you understand what Christ accomplished, once you grasp that, the the next question really becomes how that connects to our faith, right, Cliff?

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah, and Jonathan and Jack, now you begin to really shift into how we actually respond to the knowledge of what Christ has accomplished for us.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

And to me, that's where you really begin to deal with something that a lot of people assume, assume they understand, but uh may not have ever really clearly defined.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

And Jonathan, that's faith. Both Jonathan and I love that you pointed out that a misunderstanding of faith will make assurance almost impossible to grasp. Why do you think, Jack, it is with that in the religious world? I mean, faith as a concept is so often misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

I just had a debate a couple of weeks ago on the the essentiality of baptism, and the guy who was denying it because of his concept of faith basically means we just don't do anything, and it's just basically uh from the heart you say I believe in that that that covers it. And so there's this minimalist view of faith that again we have overcorrected to say, well, no, it's faith and all these other things on top of it. No, faith encompasses the entire Christian life, and you don't cut parts of it out, or you you don't, it's not just this minimal, yeah, I believe that. Like it says the demons believe it's not just mentally agreeing that Jesus is Lord, it's everything that flows from that, and that's where we can say faith saves.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Jack, and I I just I you you somewhat answered that, but I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit more because I've asked over the last 30 years of ministry. I've asked preacher friends, I've asked elders, I've asked Bible class teachers, some very respected brothers uh in the Lord's church, and I'm always amazed, I think, at the variance in the way people answer this question. But if if you, Jack Wilkie, had to define biblical faith uh as simply and as clearly as possible, how would you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

I would call it complete trust in God that demonstrates itself by acting on what he says. It's just as simple as that. You trust God, and if he tells you to do something, you do it. In the same sense, Abraham got up and left, and Israel went through the Red Sea. And uh just it's very simple. Just do what he tells you because you believe uh that he, as Hebrews 11 6 says, that he is, and he rewards those who diligently seek him.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Jack, you make the point that a lot of people uh reduce faith to uh just believing certain facts, uh basically agreeing that something is true. But you push beyond that. What's the difference between just believing something and actually having faith?

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah, it is that acting the that second half of the definition I had, you know, if if I tell you, hey, you know, your shoe is on fire, you're gonna do something about it, right? You're like if you have it, if you believe and if you have the the you know faith that I'm telling the truth, you're gonna act on it. Well, in the same sense, everything that God says,

Defining Faith As Trusting Obedience

SPEAKER_00 28:40

it's that He is Lord, He is the the judge, He commands this of us, He has the right to command it. All of the underpinning assumptions lead you to when a claim comes in, you say, All right, well, I better do something about that. And and so it's it flows out from the belief and everything else.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

And what that uh brought to my mind was an illustration that our brother Cliff here used in a previous episode about a a tight rope walker pushing a wheelbarrow across a canyon, and a lot of people say they believe that he can do it, but they never actually got or get into the wheel bear. Uh, you know, Cliff can tell a lot better than I can. Uh, had you ever heard that illustration first? And uh, how can we help people move from just standing on the edge and looking you know out to trusting enough to step into the wheelbarrow, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Yeah, I've I've I've heard that one. I'm scared of heights, and so I would not have trusted the guy either. Uh so I can understand that one. But as far as like helping people understand that, I love uh you know the uh the Psalms say taste and see that the Lord is good. Every little bit of obedience you give to God, every time you act in faith, you go, Oh, that went better than if I had done it my way. And and so you see, and so the next time, even the things that seem hard, even the parts of the Bible where you go, Do I really gotta do that? Well, hey, last time you tried God's way, it worked out pretty good. You tasted and saw the Lord was good. That builds your faith every time to go a little farther and a little farther.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

This is where I think a lot of people struggle, Jack, because they'll say, I believe, but my faith feels weak. What would you say to the Christian who feels like their faith isn't strong enough?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Well, you just pray with the that uh father and prayed in in Mark 9, you know, when he was trying to have his son healed. I think I believe it's Mark 9. I believe help my unbelief. And Jesus honored that. Jesus loved that guy's statement to say, you know, even if you don't have it, you want it. And, you know, he who asks uh will be given to him.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

And I think that's such an important distinction, Jack, because the power of faith, it isn't really in how strong it feels, it's in what, or in this case who, right? It's placed in. Uh clarify that a little bit more for us, if you will.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Well, that's the beauty of it, is like you don't even have to have that strong a faith. It's if if you're just asking him, you know, he says, have faith, and you say, Well, I don't have faith, he says, Okay, just ask and I'll give you that. He'll he's helping you along so much every bit of the way because he knows we're weak. He knows uh we fall short in so many ways that uh even in our weakness he's carrying us, and and in our weakness he's made strong, as we're told.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Jack, I cannot speak for everyone, but I do know in my own case, there are certain sins I feel like I fight over and over and over again. And sometimes it feels like, well, God, I'm right back in the same place asking for forgiveness again. Is there assurance for someone who feels like they're kind of stuck in this cycle?

SPEAKER_00 31:47

So Hebrews 10, uh 26 and following is kind of the key there of where it says if we go on sinning willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice sacrifice. It's the go on and it's the willfully. As long as you're fighting it, that's a really good sign. Now you need to do certain things to fight it, and and you need to be praying and taking whatever tools are at your disposal, whether that's your fellow Christians, confessing to them or whatever. But if you're fighting that sin, you have assurance with God. You have that uh that you're walking in the light by exposing your sin to the light, right? And if you're walking in the light, your sins are forgiven, it tells us in 1 John 1. And so, yeah, that that continuous stumbling is something we all deal with. Keep fighting it, that's a good sign.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

You referenced uh a couple moments ago as well as in your book, the the situation with the father. In Mark chapter 9, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. Um, why is that such uh an important picture for Christians to understand that that you brought it up here in the first half of this book?

SPEAKER_00 32:47

It's something that we all can identify with. It's it's okay to not be on top of your game with faith. It's okay to have weakness, and it's okay to you don't have to come to God all put together, I think is is the key there. Um I I think a lot of people feel like they do. Like they have to really know what to say in a prayer or have their faith just really dialed in, and that's when their prayers are gonna count. Saying I don't know what to do with this prayer is is a good starting place with God.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Jack, thank you for that answer. You know, as an elder in the Lord's church, I've experienced some someone within our own church family coming to me and expressing that they feel uh shame because of a moment of unbelief. But Jack, how important is it that we have these conversations and admit that even the strongest Christian deals with moments of unbelief?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

They do, yeah. And and that's you know, the scriptures are so rich. You have the Psalms, you have somebody like David who stumbles, right? Uh the man after God's own heart. And that helps us not in looking down on him, but saying, Man, it can happen to anybody. And and also anybody can be brought back from it, right? Anybody can can God will uh honor and and Psalm 51, of course, is so beautiful as he's praying his prayer of repent repentance and saying, just pouring his heart out to God. That just seeing somebody else go through that, somebody that we admire, somebody we think their faith is great. And so with fellow Christians being open with each other and having people to lean on, that goes a long way for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

There's a moment where you talk about walking in the light. That's a statement um in the New Testament that I think a lot of people struggle to fully understand. And we know it's possible for someone to step out of that, right? Um a question I think a lot of people would like to have answered is how can somebody know um when or when they're not walking in that light? What how can they diagnose that?

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Yeah, the misconception of that is that walking in the light means you're you're being perfect. And so the minute you sin, you're out of the light. That's not what it means. In fact, in that chapter, he tells you multiple times, if you say you're not sinning, you're lying, right? God knows you're gonna sin. So that's not what walking in the light means means. Walking in the light means exposing it. Is that you're confessing it, is you're owning it, you're telling God, I don't want to do this, I'm sorry. And as long as you're doing that, you have fellowship with your fellow Christians because they're doing the same thing, we're on the same path together, and the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from sin. That's such a beautiful thing. Is God did not say, well, hey, as long as you're perfect, you and me are gonna have a good relationship. It's as long as you're confessing, as long as you're trying to move in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Jack, thank you. Thank you so much. I know Jonathan and I agree, and we believe our audience would concur, but Jack, I am absolutely blown away in this book that we've already established so much, and uh, we're only halfway home here.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Yeah, I mean, from how we understand sin uh to what Christ accomplished, uh, to what faith really looks like. Uh, just let me ask you this, Jack, as we start to wrap this up. If someone has been reading your book through these first six chapters and and maybe they're still wrestling with some of these concepts that you've brought forth, what would you want them to walk away uh with at the first half uh at this halfway mark in this book? What would you have them walk away with as a thought?

SPEAKER_00 36:28

It really is the faith and grace.

Weak Faith Repeated Sin Walking Light

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Oh, sometimes in the churches of Christ we're a little nervous about Ephesians 2, 8 and 9. You're saved by grace through faith and not of yourselves. Um, but we are saved by grace through faith. That is a good verse defined properly. Yeah, we don't, there are errors that are taught about those things for sure, but when you understand them properly, that means it's not about me. It's not me carrying myself to salvation, it's it's not me depending on myself, it's God's love for me. It is that God cares so much about me that he did all of these things to make it possible, and he's given me everything I need to to walk this path with him and and to be saved. And I just hope everyone understands that, that it's not on our own shoulders.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Now, Jack, I I don't want this to be one of those gotcha type questions, but but but but but seriously, brother, I I'd be honored if you tried to answer this. Out at the center, we have what we call our elevator minute. I mean, you only have just one floor, so you've got to ask and make a point real quick. So if you had just that one minute to sit down with a Christian who is really struggling with assurance, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 37:43

I would do everything in my power to help them see themselves as God sees them. Again, as I said earlier, I think a lot of people think God is very distant. God is kind of just a dispassionate judge, you know, like, well, here's the plan of salvation, and good luck getting there. No, he desperately desires this relationship with us. He is that father that runs to us when we run to him. He's he wants to have that relationship with you, and he's done so much to make that possible. I mean, he's come all the way to us because we couldn't go to him, right? That's Jesus taking on flesh, and and that just shows how much God loves us. And so many times we kind of cower in fear or we're not really sure. We don't really want to look directly at who he is. No, man, if I could tell people who God is and how he feels about us, I think that would really that's where a lot of the assurance comes from.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

That's powerful. And I think what the problem for me is I look back on, you know, 30 years of ministry, is there are subjects like this that are just kind of kept in the dark. We don't talk a lot about them. Maybe theoretically we talk about them, but this book just kind of brings it out in the open. And I've had conversations with members at Waters Road who are going through this book, who uh it's opening their eyes. We uh Cliff and I have had members that are brand new Christians who have said just weeks after the baptism how they're struggling with their assurance. Um, but the fact that this isn't just theoretical, this this is where people live, I think is is quite important that we're having this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, for sure. This is one of those every day this is gonna impact you, how you think God thinks about you, your walk with him. When every time you bow your head in prayer, do you think you're going to somebody who's mad at you or somebody who's excited to hear from you? Do you think you're going to a God who's kind of keeping score and he's got one against you? Or do you think, man, even when I've sinned, I can go and run to my father's house? Uh and and so it if the it the ways it plays out are every Sunday when you walk into church, you feel it. I mean, it it really helps when you grasp this.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah, and Jack, I think for a lot of people, this type of conversation alone is going to help them come to realize they're not the only ones who's wrestled with this.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

There's a lot of people. Uh, a lot of when I even when I said I was writing a book on this, I had a lot of people saying, I can't wait because I I need that assurance too. Uh and and that helps us come together too, is realizing, hey, we all struggle with this. Let's let's get past this together.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Jack, man, I I just want to thank you so much for taking a few moments to sit down with us here for this episode of Scripture. This is our eighth episode of this brand new podcast. And hey, I don't know if it if it makes your head get any bigger or helps you feel better, but uh you were the first thing that we chose to to look at here in this new podcast because the moment I read it, I may I never forget the first day I called up Cliff. I said, I think I got it. I think I got it. This is what we use this, I think it's gonna be good. Um, but Jack, just thank you so much for being willing to come and talk to us uh about it so far.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Well, I appreciate it. I'm I'm as I said at the start, I'm really excited that you guys are using it. And uh I just I pray it's a blessing for everybody, uh, the study that you're doing, and yeah, that that they can feel that assurance, that that love of God, the warmth of his embrace. So uh yeah, good for you guys teaching it, and I hope it keeps going well.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

And we're not done. We still got seven more chapters to go, right, Cliff?

SPEAKER_02 41:09

That's right, that's right. So make sure you stay with us as we keep building on what we've talked about even today.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

And one more thing before we let you go, um, Jack, I want you to spend a couple moments telling people about where you can be found uh online, where they can experience more uh of what you and and others have to offer.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Sure thing, I appreciate it. I work for Focus Press out of uh Franklin, Tennessee. They publish my books, and so you can check them out there. I've um I think I'm up to 10 at this point, devotional books and other books on the faith. So go check those out there. And I write on my website, jackwilkie.co. I write a couple of times a week and uh do a podcast via that website as well. And uh yeah, it's stuff going up there all the time, commenting on the church, on culture, on uh the world around us. So that's where uh most of my stuff is published as jackwilkie.co.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Now now, Jack, before we let you go, one thing I wanted to bring up. I I came across recently a debate. You mentioned it just a few moments

Elevator Minute Resources And Closing

SPEAKER_01 42:10

ago that you had back in March with uh Jeremiah Nortier concerning that question. Is baptism essential for salvation? And I just wanted to take a moment uh to tell you I that I just commend you for the manner in which you conducted yourself throughout that entire debate. Not only the manner, but the skill in which you used to present the truth in that debate.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

I thought it was very admirable. I appreciate it. I as I told everyone, it's a lot easier to have a debate when you've got the truth on your side. Uh, and so that went a long way. And and he was uh an interesting character, but uh, you know, thankfully the grace of God, uh we we got through that one okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

You know, people might watch that debate and think you've been doing this under many, many years. But Jonathan shared with me that this was possibly one of the first official debates that you've even had, Jack.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

That's the only debate I've done. Yeah, it might be the only one I ever do. So just retire after that one.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

One and like, yeah, you're you're batting a thousand, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:12

I hope so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Uh it's just amazing though, Jack. Uh, and we're gonna throw a link uh at the bottom of this video for people to go and check out that debate because uh it was you did a masterful job in handling it, but uh I love the fact the truth was told, and and that's what's most important. Well, uh before we go, Jack, thank you again for for for being with us. I hope that we gave you a little bit of Texas hospitality. Are you are are you say you're in Nashville, but uh I don't know, is that really where you're from? Are you really from Nashville?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Uh Denver, Colorado, but nine years in Texas, so I got a lot of love for Texas.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Okay. Um, yeah. Well, you've been around then. You're kind of a mud at this point. Tennessee, Texas, Colorado. You're Some seasoning under your belt. Well, uh, again, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Thank you guys. A lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Yeah, thank you again. This sounds great. And folks, as we always say, don't forget we have new episodes that comes out of Scriptural Matters that drops every Friday afternoon at 3 30 on YouTube, Facebook, and also all of the major podcast platforms.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

That's right. But until next time, a big thank you again to our guest, our esteemed guests here today, Jack Wilkie, again, the author of You Are Saved, a Christian's Assurance that we're studying right here on Scripture Matters. But again, thank you to Jack for joining us here today on behalf of my co-host here, Cliff Thompson, myself, Jonathan Sanford. We're signing off here with another episode of Scripture Matters. But as always, good folks, thank you for joining us. And remember, Scripture Matters. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Scripture Matters Podcast. We'll be back with a new conversation every Friday at 3.30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms. Until then, may the word guide you and your week. And as always, remember Scripture Matters.