Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 12 (Chapter 10 "Can I Fall?")

This is the 12th episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast, with hosts Cliff Thompson & Jonathan Sanford. Currently we are reviewing the book published by Focus Press, and written by Jack Wilkie, "You Are Saved - A Christian's Assurance." Please like, share and make sure you've subscribed to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published alongside the Watters Road Church of Christ. Below is a synopsis of this week's episode:

The most unsettling detour in the Christian life isn’t the one where you openly rebel. It’s the one where everything feels familiar, you ignore the warning signs, and only later realize you’ve drifted far off course. That’s the tension we tackle as we keep reviewing Jack Wilkie’s You Are Saved: A Christian’s Assurance and open Scripture around one of the most debated questions in Christianity: can a Christian fall away?

We slow down and define what people actually mean when they say “once saved always saved” and how that differs from “perseverance of the saints.” Then we treat the strongest arguments fairly, including passages like John 10:28 and Ephesians 2:8–9, because real assurance has to be built on what the Bible actually says, not what we wish it said. From there, we lean into the warning passages many people try to soften, including Hebrews 12, Hebrews 6:4–6, and 2 Peter 2:20–21, and we ask the honest question: why would God warn believers about something that can’t happen?

The turning point is learning to separate falling short from falling away. With 1 John 1:7–8, we talk about assurance that isn’t tied to flawless performance but to a faithful walk and a steady direction toward Christ. We also get practical about how people drift, using Hebrews 2:1 and Hebrews 3:12–13, and why staying in the Word, staying in prayer, and staying connected to other Christians is part of God’s protection.

If you’ve ever wondered whether your struggles cancel your salvation, or whether the Bible’s warnings destroy confidence, this conversation is for you. Subscribe for more weekly Bible study, share this with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review to help more people find Scripture Matters.

Transcript

The GPS Analogy For Faith

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Have you ever been driving somewhere and you think you know the way?

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Yeah, and you don't want to admit you might be wrong.

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Exactly. You've been there before. Uh, it feels familiar, you're confident, but then the old GPSS turn left. And you don't.

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No, you just keep right on going.

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Because in your mind, hey, you know better.

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Yeah, and for a few minutes, it feels like you're right.

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Until suddenly, you're not where you're supposed to be. You're off course. And now the GPS starts recalculating.

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Recalculating.

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And even more recalculating.

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Trying to get you back to where you're supposed to be all alone.

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Now, folks, here's the question.

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Were you still on the right path?

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Just because you started on it. Or did something change? When you chose to ignore the direction.

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Because that's not just a driving question.

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That's a spiritual one. There are a lot of people who believe that once you've started your journey with Jesus Christ.

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There's no possible way to end up lost. No matter what turns you take, no matter what directions you ignore.

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No matter how off course you go, you'll still going to arrive. But is that actually what Scripture teaches? Or is it possible to start in the right direction and still walk away? And if that's true, what does that mean for assurance? Does that make salvation uncertain? Or does it actually make it clearer?

Welcome And How To Engage

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That's what we are getting into here today, right here on another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. You've tuned in to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published in cooperation with the Waters Road Church of Christ. Looking for a church home in the Houston area that lovingly stands upon God's Word? Waters Road is the place where you belong. If you need more information about the Waters Road Church of Christ, check out their website at www.wrc.org. We'd like to thank each of you who helped make this podcast possible, especially the prayerful support of our wives and families. And now, good folks, let's get back to another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. Welcome back again to the Scripture Matters Podcast. Folks, we are so grateful that you've chosen to share a little bit of your time with us here today as we continue our review of Jack Wilkie's book, You Are Saved, a Christian's Assurance.

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We are indeed glad you are with us. Whether you're watching us on YouTube, Facebook, or listening on your favorite podcast platform, we truly appreciate you being a part of this study each and every week.

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As always, give us a moment here to introduce ourselves. My name is Jonathan Sanford. I am blessed to serve as the pulpit minister alongside the wonderful brethren of the Waters Road Church of Christ and the great metropolis of Houston, Texas.

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And I'm Cliff Thompson, and I'm privileged to serve as one of the elders overseeing the Lord's Church here at the Waters Road Church of Christ. In addition, I also serve as one of the Bible class teachers.

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And as always, before we move forward here today, want to take just a moment to remind all of you who join us right here on the Scripture Matters podcast. Although this is a weekly podcast, listen, folks, this is not just content to consume.

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You're absolutely correct, Jonathan. Folks, this is a study.

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Yeah, this is something that we want each and every one of you out there to be actively engaged in.

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So if something stands out to you, if something challenges you, if something raises a question, yeah, please let us hear about it. That's right. We truly would love it if you would reach out to us through the contact information you see on your screen via email or social media.

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Because listen, folks, this isn't meant to be a one-way conversation.

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No, you're absolutely right, Jonathan. It is a shared effort to understand scripture more clearly. We, Jonathan, I desperately want to help each other to rightly divide the word of God.

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And listen, we've been incredibly encouraged by those of you out here uh watching us who've reached out with your questions, your comments, your feedback, your thoughts.

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Folks, it really does help shape what we're doing here.

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Oh, it does. And it reminds us that people aren't just watching.

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No, they're thinking.

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And that's exactly what we want.

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It sure is, Jonathan. And a final reminder: if you have not yet liked, commented, or subscribed to our Scripture Matter podcast, folks, there's no better time than right now. So please do us a great big favor and go ahead and tap that button on your screen.

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All right, folks, before we jump

Repentance As A Changed Direction

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into today's discussion, let's take a moment to look back at what we saw last week in episode number 11.

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Yeah, that was our study of chapter nine, getting repentance right.

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And if you were with us last week, we mentioned right at the very beginning of the episode that it would be a landmark chapter. And it truly was.

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Oh, it certainly was, Jonathan, because repentance is one of those concepts that everybody uses, but not everybody understands the same way.

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And what the chapter helped expose is how easy it is to reduce repentance to something that it was never meant to be.

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And one of the biggest misunderstandings that we talked about last week was this idea of a kind of a reset button repentance.

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Where every time you sin, you've stepped outside of God's grace and then stepping back into it once you say the right words.

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And that kind of thinking creates a constant cycle of uncertainty.

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Yeah, we said this last week. It's like you're constantly moving in and out of a safe position based on your last action, your last sin, your last prayer, your last moment of repentance, which creates a vicious cycle that sounds like this sin, panic, reset over and over and over again.

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And sadly, folks, the result for many Christians within our churches is that they never feel settled.

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But what the chapter really helped to clarify, and I love this, Cliff, is that repentance is truly a change of direction.

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Yeah, it's a change of mind that leads to a change of life.

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And what's beautiful is that changes everything. Yeah, because now we're not talking about having to constantly reset our salvation, we're talking about living as people who are genuinely turning towards God and continuing in that direction, even when we struggle. Folks, that is where last week's discussion really connected to assurance.

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Because really, folks, if you misunderstand repentance, then you're actually going to misunderstand your standing with God.

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Yeah, but when you understand it correctly, okay, that's when you'll really begin to see that God has already accounted for your weakness, as well as that your relationship with Him is not built on perfection, but it is built on faith, transformation, and direction.

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And Jonathan, brother, that naturally leads us right into what we're going to be discussing today.

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That's right. Because once you understand repentance properly, the next question becomes, I think, unavoidable.

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Yeah, the question is, can a Christian fall?

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And if they can, what does that mean for assurance? That's where chapter 10 takes us today.

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And this is one of the most vital, and honestly, one of the most debated questions in all of Christianity.

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That's right. So, with that in mind, good folks, today we're just going to slow down and take our time. We want to stay grounded in scripture, right? Because scripture matters, and we want to work through this carefully.

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Because, folks, this just isn't a theological discussion.

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No, this is truly about how you understand your salvation and whether you can truly have confidence in it. All right. So let's get into it.

The Big Question About Falling Away

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All right, as we come now to the beginning of chapter 10, everything, Cliff, really centers around that one question.

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It sure does. So, folks, buckle up because I promise you, it's not a small one.

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Nope. Instead, folks, it's one of the most important questions that any Christian can ever consider or ask. Here it is. Can a Christian fall away? Think about it. Can someone who has truly been saved, someone who has truly been forgiven, truly been added to the body of Jesus Christ, can that person walk away from that?

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And the reason this question matters so much is because it is directly tied to assurance. Because if the answer is no, then assurance feels simple. Once you're saved, you've always saved. Case closed.

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But if the answer is yes, then the question becomes how can anyone feel secure? And Cliff, my brother, listen, what I love about chapter 10 is that this chapter doesn't rush to an answer. It is extremely methodical about making sure that you and I, all the audience out there together, that we all start with the same information. Folks, listen, Jack Wilkie does what any true author, what any good author is supposed to do. Not just assume that you already know the information, uh, but to give you all the information that is needed to make an informed decision.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

I agree with you 100%, Jonathan, now, but for transparency's sake, I'll give everyone out there a little peek behind the curtain, so to speak. Because whenever I first read this chapter, I text Jonathan in a bit of a panic, wondering what in the world was Jack Wilkie thinking, and how are we going to present this without running off viewers? But here is the reality, folks, and please hear me in this. It takes time to accurately convey what people genuinely believe. And it would be dishonest, folks, for us to misrepresent the belief, even if we know they are incorrect in those beliefs.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

That's right, Cliff. And thank you for saying that, because in this case, there are two major doctrinal positions that is held among people who would tell you that it's impossible for a Christian to ever fall away. Did you hear that, folks? These people say it's impossible for a Christian to ever fall away. And just like Jack Wilkie took the time to write about them, Cliff and I here today want to take some time to make sure that all of you out there are accurately informed.

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Now, these two positions

Two Views Of Eternal Security

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may sound similar, but they're not identical.

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No, the the first is what many people out there have for uh a number of years referred to as once saved, always saved.

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And the idea there is pretty straightforward.

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If you are saved at any point, you cannot lose that salvation. No matter what happens later, no matter what choices uh that are made, your salvation is secure.

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But then there's a second position that's closely related.

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Yeah, it's called the perseverance of the saints, and this one is a little different. That's right. It teaches that true believers will continue in faith, and if someone does indeed fall away, here's the important part, folks. Listen carefully. They will say, Well, that person was never truly a Christian to begin with, and that distinction matters.

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Oh, it really does.

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Because one says you can't lose salvation, the other says, if you fall, you never had it to begin with.

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Now, before challenging either position, the chapter does something very, very important.

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That's right, Cliff. It presents the scriptures that these individuals often use to support their false doctrine. And I'm sorry, Cliff. I told you that we talked about this. I cannot help but think that even Satan himself, right, used God's word, scripture, to back up his lies toward Jesus.

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Jonathan, that's a sobering thought, brother. One of the most common passages they'll use is John 10, 28. This is what it says I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Wow, Cliff, I have heard them quote this, and I'm going to say it's a powerful statement. I've heard them quote this powerful statement so many times throughout my lifetime. Um, and it is a powerful statement because it emphasizes security in Christ.

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Yeah, because the key idea is no one can take you out of his hand.

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Another passage that they often like to use is Ephesians chapter 2, verses 8 and 9, which says this for it is by grace you have been saved through faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast. And the argument there is this salvation is a gift. Then it's not something you earn. And if you didn't earn it, you can't lose it by falling.

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And on the surface, those arguments sound strong.

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Yeah, they do, but uh, and and they need to be taken seriously.

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Yeah, because we're not dealing with weak ideas here, Jonathan.

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No, folks, we are dealing with real interpretations by real people of scripture. These things are promoted by real people and backed, quite frankly, by some of those prominent names in the denominational world.

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But this is where the chapter begins to introduce tension. Because even within those views, there's an acknowledgement that sin still matters, that choices still matter.

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And some will even say a person can return to sin, okay, and still be saved, but it will come at a cost. Well, what cost is that?

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What will they lose? Not loss of salvation, Jonathan, but loss of reward.

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Yeah, that's what they say, and it and it raises an important question because now we have to ask if that's how scripture

Warning Passages That Create Tension

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actually describes it. And this is truly where the chapter begins to turn.

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By bringing in passages that don't sound hypothetical. For an example, Hebrews chapter 12, verses 14 through 15, which says, Pursue peace with all people and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord, lest anyone fall short of the grace of God.

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That is some strong language. Fall short of the grace of God. That doesn't sound to me like loss of reward.

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Jonathan, to me, that sounds like something far, far more worse.

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Oh, yeah, I agree. And and then the example that follows makes it even heavier. Um, do you remember old Esau, right? In the old testament, um, Hebrews chapter 12, verses 16 and 17, um, continues. It says this who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. Afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance.

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And now the tension becomes unavoidable, folks, because these are not casual warnings.

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No, these are real consequences. This is real language, real danger that's being described.

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So now we're left with a question.

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If scripture says things like this, then what are we supposed to do with them?

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Are they just hypothetical warnings? Or are they describing something that can actually happen? Because how we answer that question is going to shape everything we believe about assurance.

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All right. So before we move forward, um, we need to bring this all together for you out there. Uh, I know we've bit off quite a bit here, and and and we want to take a moment to just gather it all in.

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We've introduced a central question, folks. Can a Christian fall away?

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And we've defined uh and described for you out there two major doctrinal positions.

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And we've seen the scripture often used to support security.

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And now we've been introduced to passages that create tension, yeah, real warnings, real consequences that don't seem easy to explain away. And that sets up where the chapter is going to head to next, because now we really have to wrestle with the warnings themselves, not just ignore them. No, and not softening them, but understand them. So the question, Cliff, becomes what do these warnings actually mean? And how do they fit with everything else that scripture says?

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And that's where we're headed next.

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All right. Uh, with that in mind, as we move forward here in chapter 10, we really hope that you've read this. The focus now shifts.

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Yes, Jonathan. We're no longer just asking the question.

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No, now we're having to actually deal with the warnings themselves.

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Because those passages we just read, they don't sound hypothetical, they sound serious.

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Yes, sir. Serious, absolutely. And that's exactly the tension that uh this chapter begins to press. Because think about it, if someone believes you cannot fall away, and we've said there are those out there that believe this, then these warnings have to be explained somehow.

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Yeah, they just can't be ignored.

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And so uh the truth is what often happens is this people begin to reinterpret the warnings. For example, some people out there uh will say these passages are describing people who were never truly saved. Okay, they may have looked like Christians, they may have even acted like Christians, but they were actually never truly in Christ.

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Yeah, others will say the warnings are real, but they don't involve loss of salvation. Instead, they refer to loss of reward or loss of fellowship.

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And on the surface, those explanations might seem to resolve the tension, but the question um we

Hebrews 6 And 2 Peter 2

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Must ask here, Cliff, uh, and all of you out there watching is this. Uh, remember, do they actually fit the language and the context of the passages?

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That's right, Jonathan. Because when you look closely at these warnings, they don't sound like minor consequences. They sound like something far, far more serious. And this is where the chapter begins to bring in another key passage.

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Yes, good folks out there. Let's look now together at Hebrews chapter six, beginning in verses four and ending in verse six. Again, Hebrews chapter six, four through six, which tells us this. The writer says, For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance.

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Brother, I think you'd agree with me. That's not like language. I mean, you talk about how context is keen, and I totally agree with you, Jonathan, there. Well, look at how those people are described. They're described as enlightened, they're described as tasted the heavenly gift, they're described as shared in the Holy Spirit. Now, Jonathan, those are not description of someone on the outside.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

No, 100%. No doubt in my mind, this sounds like someone who is truly participating in the life of Jesus Christ. And yet, folks, uh, hear me out. When I tell you uh this text, God's word, not Jonathan's word, not Cliff's word, not Jack Wilkie's word, but God's word, trust me, when I tell you, it says they can fall away.

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And that's where the difficulty comes in. Because if someone says, Well, they were never really saved, then you have to ask, what would a saved person look like? Because this description seems pretty complete.

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And this is exactly what the chapter is forcing us to wrestle with, not what we prefer to be true, but what the text actually says. And it doesn't just stop there. 2 Peter chapter 2, verses 20 and 21. Again, 2 Peter chapter 2, verses 20 and 21 says this. For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome. Here it is, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

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Again, notice the language escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ. Folks, that's not ignorance.

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No, that's transformation.

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And yet the passage says they become entangled again and overcome. And that condition becomes worse. Now, if you think about that, these same individuals before they were saved, they were outside of Christ and without hope, according to Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 12, which is a horrible place to be. And yet now it says their condition after tasting of hope, but falling away, is worse than where they started out at, having no hope, Jonathan. I cannot even imagine that.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Oh, absolutely, Cliff. It's a state that I wouldn't even wish on my very worst enemy, right? Um, and now we have multiple passages describing people who clearly knew the truth, clearly experienced something real, and yet they turned away. And this, good folks, out there, is where the chapter presses the question even harder.

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And these are just not hypothetical scenarios.

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Or uh are they describing real spiritual danger? Because if they're only hypothetical, then why such strong language? Why such detailed descriptions? Folks, why warn people about something that can't even happen? And not just warn, but warn repeatedly. And this is where the tension becomes unavoidable.

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Because, brother, the reality is either these warnings are real or they are not. And if they are real, then we have to understand what they mean, not explain them away. So before we move forward, Jonathan, how about let's bring this segment together here?

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All right, Cliff, we've looked at passages here in the last few moments that describe people that appear to have truly been in Christ, people who experience real spiritual life, and yet those same passages warn of falling away.

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And that leaves us with a critical question, Jonathan. How do we reconcile these warnings with everything scripture says about assurance?

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Because here's the thing we cannot ignore one side to protect the other.

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No, we've got to understand both. And that's exactly where this chapter is going next.

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All right. So uh we we have the tension, uh, it's laid out on the table before us here, right? We've seen the warning passages, and we've heard, as we've talked about, just how strong the language is.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah, and at this point, Jonathan, you can't just brush

Falling Short Versus Falling Away

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those aside. These aren't just hypothetical warnings, they're serious warnings, and they're meant to get our attention.

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Exactly. So now the question becomes how do those warnings fit with everything that the scripture says about assurance?

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Yeah, because ultimately that's the challenge, isn't it? Scripture clearly teaches that we can have confidence, but it also clearly warns about falling away.

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And this, if we're just being honest, is where people out there really start to struggle because they assume those two things can't both be true.

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Right. If falling away is possible, then in their mind, assurance must be impossible.

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Like, listen, if there's any real danger at all, then there can't be any real confidence.

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But that's not how scripture presents it, it never forces you to choose between those two, folks.

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The key is understanding what these warning passages are actually describing, and just as importantly, what they're not describing.

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Because they're not talking about every situation, they're not describing a Christian who's struggling or someone who stumbles and then gets back up.

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They're talking about someone out there who sins and repents. Uh, they're not talking about that person, I should say, or someone who's just walking through a season of weakness in their life.

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Yeah, what they're describing is something much more serious than that.

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Yes, uh, this is what we would refer to as a turning away, okay? Remember, we're talking about direction here. This is a person who has turned away, they've changed their direction. It is a rejection, a point where someone makes a decision to leave Christ altogether.

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And folks, that's a big distinction because if we blur that line, everything starts to fall apart.

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Exactly. Because think about this, good folks. If if every sin meant that you had just fallen away from Christ, then nobody would have any hope.

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None of us could have any assurance at all. The fact is, we all struggle, we all fall short. And that's actually something scripture is very honest about.

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It is. I mean, when you when you consider passages like 1 John chapter 1 and verse 7, we talked about this over the last couple of weeks. It says, if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus, his son, cleanses us from ALL. That's all sin.

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And folks, that is important because that's not describing a perfect life.

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No, it's describing, as we talked about last week, a walk. Okay. And as we said, it's describing a direction, a life that is oriented toward God.

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And even in that kind of life, folks, there's still struggle.

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Oh, yeah, there is. I mean, and that's what makes the next verse oh so clear.

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Yeah, first John chapter one and verse eight. First John one, eight says, if we say we have no sin, folks, we deceive ourselves.

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So think about this. The the Christian life, the point of the Christian life is not reaching a point where you never fail.

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No, Jonathan. It's about continuing in the right direction, even when you do fail.

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And that's uh where this really begins to just come together.

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Because falling short is not the same as falling away.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

No, it's not. I mean, you think about it, one is a weakness, uh, something that we all deal with.

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And as Jonathan just said, the other is rejection, a decision to walk away from the relationship itself.

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And what's beautiful is when you start to see that distinction clearly, then the tension we've been talking about just begins to resolve.

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Because now assurance isn't tied to perfection anymore.

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No, it's tied to your walk, uh, your direction, your relationship with God.

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So the real question isn't, have I messed up?

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No, it's am I still walking with him?

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Have I turned away? Or am I still moving toward him, even with my struggles?

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And I think, Cliff, I think you would agree that that is an answer to a question that any Christian out there is truly capable of actually answering.

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Yeah, because it brings clarity instead of confusion.

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And it also, if we think about it, helps us to understand the very purpose of the warnings that we read.

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Yeah, Jonathan, they're not there to make you anxious every time you fall short.

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No, they're they're there to keep you from drifting into something far more serious.

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They keep you alert, they keep you grounded.

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Uh, they really and truly keep you moving in the right direction.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

So instead of living in fear, constantly asking, Did I just lose my salvation?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

No, instead, you're asking a much better question. Again, am I still walking with God?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

And that question actually protects your assurance.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So if we bring this all together, here, folks, is the key point.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Falling away is not the same thing as struggling with sin.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

It's not the same as weakness, it is willfully turning away from Christ. And what that means is that assurance is still very real. Yeah, and real confidence is still possible because it's grounded in a relationship, not in flawless performance, and that leads us to the next question the chapter raises. So if falling away is a real possibility, then how does someone actually get there? What does that process look like? And just as important, how do we guard against it?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

And that's where we're headed next.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

All right.

Drifting Starts With Neglect

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Now we move into segment number four. Uh, and a very important question, as we just mentioned. If falling away is something that can actually happen for a believer, then how does it happen? Okay, think about this with me. Because most people don't just wake up one morning and just decide, hey, I'm I'm done with Christ.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

No, it's not usually a single moment like that, it's a process. And that is what makes it dangerous. Because if it was something that happened instantly, folks, you'd see it coming. But because it's gradual, it can happen without you realizing how far you've drifted.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Well, Cliff, thankfully, I love this. Scripture actually speaks to that idea. Hebrews chapter two and verse one says this that we must give more earnest heed to the things that we have heard lest we drift away. Folks, do me a big favor, focus on that word drift here for just a moment because it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

It really is. You know, Jonathan, when I think of drifting, I think of turning loose of a controls of a boat. You were using the motor, and that motor gives you both direction and momentum. You turn the motor off, and now instead of direction, you are being pushed along by whether the current or the wind takes you. Because the current and the wind could take you along either slow or so fast that you would lose control and capsize. So drifting can carry a very, very heavy weight if you want to pursue it. Because drifting doesn't require effort.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

No, that's so true, Cliff. And honestly, most often, when you think about it, it happens when you stop paying attention. Not with rebellion, but with neglect. Okay? Think about it. Less time in the word, less time spent in prayer, less intentionality with your walk with God. And I'll be honest with you, folks, and I'll be honest with my brother Cliff here. At first, it may not feel like such a big deal. It feels small, almost like an unnoticeable change in your daily life. But over time, that neglect creates distance. And that distance actually makes you more vulnerable. And that's where temptation will start to take a stronger hold.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Right, you are, Jonathan, because now you're not as anchored as you once were. And this is where another passage becomes really, really important.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

That's right. Let's let's look together now at Hebrews chapter 3, verses 12 and 13. Again, let's look together at Hebrews chapter 3, verses 12 and 13, where it says, Beware, brethren, lest there be in you uh an evil heart of unbelief and departing from the living God. Exhort one another daily, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Notice the progression, folks. Where does it start? It starts in the heart.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah, it describes it as an evil heart of unbelief, which leads to departing from God. And then there you have that phrase, the deceitfulness of sin.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

And Jonathan, that's key.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Oh, it is because sin uh never presents itself honestly.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

No, it's convenience you, it's not there seriously.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

No, it convinces you that it's just not serious, that it's not a big deal. It tells you this isn't a big deal, you're fine, and over time that deception hardens your heart, which makes it easier to continue drifting, and easier to justify it, and eventually that thing that once bothered you doesn't bother you anymore. And Cliff, that's a dangerous place to be, because now your sensitivity is gone, and that's why this chapter emphasizes something that is so very important.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

You don't fall away all at once, no, you drift there over time, step by step, decision by decision, and that means something really important for us, folks.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

If falling away is a process, then guarding against falling away is a process, it's not just about avoiding one big mistake, it's about daily faithfulness, it's about staying in the word, staying faithful in your prayer life, and and and don't forget this one staying connected to other Christians.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, that part matters more than people realize it, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

It really does because Hebrews chapter 3 didn't just warn, it also gave a solution.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Yeah, it says exhort one another daily.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

That means we're not meant to do this all alone. No, we need each other to stap, to stay encouraged, to stay accountable. Because here's the the reality yeah, isolation accelerates drifting, but be in connection, being connected with one another, that helps and it prevents it. And when you see that, this becomes oh so practical.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah, this isn't just theory anymore. You can actually evaluate your life.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

You think, am I drifting or am I anchored?

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah, you think, am I growing or slowly pulling away?

SPEAKER_02 41:10

And those are questions we need to ask honestly, yeah, because the earlier you catch it, yeah, the easier it is to correct it. Your relationship to God is real, and because it's real, it must be maintained, not by perfection, but by faithfulness, and that's where this chapter brings us.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

What I love about where this chapter brings us to, Jonathan, is that it is a place of balance because on one side, we reject the idea that nothing matters after salvation, that you can still live however you want and still be secure.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

But on the other side, we also reject the idea that you must live in constant fear of losing everything. Scripture, listen, it doesn't push us to either one of those extremes. Instead, it calls us to something that is far better.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Calls us to a faithful walk, a steady relationship. And when that's in place, folks, that is when confidence truly becomes possible. Not because you you feel perfect, but because you're still walking with him.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

And that's the

Balance Between Warning And Confidence

SPEAKER_02 42:32

key. We're not talking about here flawless performance, but continued direction. And that's exactly what you see, good folks, with passages like 1 John chapter 5 and verse 13, where the writer says, These things I have written to you that you may know you have eternal life. Well, good folks, as we wrap up today's episode, this chapter has presented us with something today that is both sobering but incredibly encouraging.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

It certainly has, Jonathan, because we've seen that falling away is not something to take lightly. But at the same time, it's not something that should leave us living in fear either.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Yes, Cliff. You know, uh, we'll be honest here with our viewers because uh this has really been, I think, our toughest assignment as we have have gone through this book and attempted to review it, because you think about it, so many of our neighbors, our co-workers, classmates, friends, family, they would answer the question that we looked at can a Christian fall away? And they would say, No way, it's just not possible for a real Christian to fall away.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

And the idea of those who pushed this particular doctrine and They would say if a person does fall away, well, they were never truly a Christian to begin with. Well, to make such a statement would mean that this person would have to have the same knowledge, the same insight as God, meaning they would be able to know the very heart of the person. That is a dangerous, dangerous mindset to say that you can see to the very soul of someone to know their heart, just like God can.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

What we want all of you out there to know, uh, we just pray that we've helped you today to understand the balance, the balance between warning and assurance. We want to have helped you understand that balance just a little better. And if we've done that, what we set out to do, then that's what this program is all about. Again, this is not just a conversation between Cliff and I.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

No, no, not at all. This is a study, and we want every single person who listens or watches a Scripture Matter

Closing Thanks And Reach Out

SPEAKER_00 45:05

podcast to feel like they're part of an actual Bible study.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

So good, folks, with those words in mind, if something stood out to you today, if something challenged your thinking, or maybe you're still working through some questions, we would genuinely love to hear from you. Here's the thing, folks. Reach out to us, send your thoughts, your questions, your feedback, using again, as Cliff said earlier in this episode, the contact information, the social media information that you see on your screen.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Because those conversations don't just help you, they help shape what we do here moving forward.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

And listen, if you've been with us, uh if you've been following along with us through these first several episodes, we just want to say thank you, folks. Yeah, you know, the growth that we've seen here in this process has been truly encouraging and humbling. I'll be honest with you. I mean, last week alone, Cliff and I were just blown away. Had over 5,000 people uh that took time to watch our previous episode, uh, episode 11. And it came at a perfect time. Uh, we needed that encouragement, and and God delivered it through you all, and and we're just so grateful that you've supported us in that way. Uh, those of you who've shared our previous episodes.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yes, to God be the glory.

SPEAKER_02 46:31

Yeah, for every conversation, every opportunity, every ounce of growth that we've been seeing right here on Scripture Matters.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

We're thankful you've joined us here today, folks.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

And we hope that you'll be back with us next time.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

As we continue to open God's word together right here each Friday afternoon at 3:30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Well, as we wrap up here today for myself, Jonathan Sanford, for my co-host right across the way there, Cliff Thompson, and our wonderful producer, my son Billy Sanford. Stay in the word. Stay encouraged. And as always, remember, Scripture Matters. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Scripture Matters Podcast. We'll be back with a new conversation every Friday at 3.30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms. Until then, may the word guide you and your week. And as always, remember Scripture Matters.