Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 14 (Chapter 12 "I Never Knew You")

This is the 14th episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast, with hosts Cliff Thompson & Jonathan Sanford. Currently we are reviewing the book published by Focus Press, and written by Jack Wilkie, "You Are Saved - A Christian's Assurance." Please like, share and make sure you've subscribed to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published alongside the Watters Road Church of Christ. Below is a synopsis of this week's episode:

A counterfeit can shine like treasure until someone who knows the real thing looks closely. We start with that kind of moment and use it to ask a hard spiritual question: what if the confidence we feel about our faith is not the same as biblical assurance? Jesus’ words in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you,” are not meant to entertain us, they are meant to wake us up and drive us back to Scripture with humility.

We walk through several “pitfalls” that can produce counterfeit assurance, including checkbox religion that focuses on visible actions while the heart stays untouched. Using passages like 2 Corinthians 13:5 and Matthew 23, we talk about why self-examination is not the enemy of assurance when it is rooted in God’s word. The Bible is meant to be a mirror, not a microscope we use to inspect everyone else. We also tackle hard-heartedness and “itching ears,” where someone resists correction even when the truth is clear.

From there we move into worldliness and the slow drift that happens through tiny compromises and shifting priorities. Sanctification should make us more like Christ over time, but culture can quietly become the standard if we are not careful. Finally, we get very practical about love for the brethren, bitterness, and unresolved division, because how we treat other Christians reveals what is happening in the heart.

If you want a clearer, calmer, more biblical view of Christian assurance, press play and let Scripture do its honest work. Like, Share and Subscribe, to help more people find the show!

Transcript

A Beautiful Ring Turns Out Fake

SPEAKER_00 0:10

It was an heirloom that you knew about for years.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

You've seen it from time to time, but only at a distance.

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Years passed along until the owner passed away.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

You're finally able to hold it after it's been passed down to you.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

So beautiful are the jewels that adorn this ring.

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Every time the light hits it, it would just sparkle with color.

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But hey, with something that beautiful, one cannot help but wonder how much it is worth.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Fortunately, you just so happen to know a jeweler of good reputation who you believe would provide an honest evaluation.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Unfortunately, though, that jeweler he lowers his loop, he looks back at you and he says, I'm sorry to tell you this. This is glass, it's a counterfeit made to look like the real thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

In that moment, everything you believed you had transformed.

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Because one thing can look authentic, it can even feel authentic and still not be genuine.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

And that raises a sobering spiritual thought.

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Because in the religious world, it is possible to be drawn into something that is counterfeit.

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A counterfeit church.

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Counterfeit assurance.

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Something that looks and feels like the truth.

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But in the end, it is not the real thing at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

And if that is possible, how would anyone know?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Hey, that's what we are going to explore here today. Right

Podcast Welcome And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_00 2:01

here on another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. You've tuned in to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published in cooperation with the Waters Road Church of Christ. Looking for a church home in the Houston area that lovingly stands upon God's Word? Waters Road is the place where you belong. If you need more information about the Waters Road Church of Christ, check out their website at www.wrcopc.org. We'd like to thank each of you who helped make this podcast possible. Especially the prayerful support of our wives and families. And now, good folks, let's get back to another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. Welcome back to another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. We cannot tell you how grateful we are that you've chosen to join us today.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Absolutely. We are so overjoyed that you've decided to spend this time with us today. And before we jump into today's episode, let's introduce ourselves to all of those in our audience who might be joining us for the very first time.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Hey, that sounds like a great plan. Hey, I'm Jonathan Sanford. I serve as the pulpit minister alongside the wonderful brethren of the Waters Road Church of Christ.

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And I'm Cliff Thompson. I serve as one of the elders as well as teach an adult Bible class at the Waters Road Church of Christ.

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And whether you're watching us today on YouTube, Facebook, or one of our many podcast platforms, we just want to stop here for a moment and say thank you for taking the time to join us as we continue this wonderful journey together.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And before we get in today's episode, let us encourage you if the Scripture Matters podcast has been helpful to you, please take a moment to like, share, subscribe, and follow the program.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, those simple steps really do help more and more people discover the Scripture Matters podcast. And listen, our goal from day one has been simply to get God's word in front of as many people as we possibly can.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

And we also want to remind you, as always, if you have questions about anything we have discussed or even a topic that you would like for us to cover in future episodes, we would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

That's right. You can reach out to us right now using the email addresses and the social media contacts you see right here on your screen.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

And folks, we really do mean that. Even if you're reviewing one of our previous episodes, if something stands out to you, if something challenges you, if you're working through something spiritually, we really would be glad to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

And for those of you out there who've already reached out to Cliff and myself, thank you. Because your encouragement, your feedback, they truly mean a great deal to us.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Folks, they really, really do.

Learn The Real To Spot Fakes

SPEAKER_00 5:20

All right, Cliff, as we begin today our journey through chapter 12, I Never Knew You. What a title. Jack Wilkie uses an old preacher's illustration about false doctrine. And this illustration, I think, is the best way to learn how to spot a counterfeit uh religion or a counterfeit faith or a counterfeit belief. He says, hey, the way to spot counterfeit money is not by studying every counterfeit, but by studying and learning what real money looks like. Uh then when, hey, something counterfeit comes along, you're more likely to recognize it.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah, yes, sir, Jonathan. And when I read this part of chapter 12, it hits a little too close to home.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

A little too close to home. Tell me what happened there, Cliff.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Well, it is true about how to tell counterfeit money. When Edwin and I first got married, she worked at for a bank in Mobile, Alabama. She said they taught everyone to recognize real money just the way that Jack described it in his illustration. But one time, someone came into the bank where she was working and passed counterfeit money that was so good even the bank president could not tell until it was too late.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

So, in that instant, uh the the counterfeit money in this moment was made so well that it was almost impossible to tell it from the real money.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yes, sir. It was, Jonathan. And it was way too late when they found out the truth.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

And that's what we want to think about here today. We want to look together at some of the ways that the devil uh can counterfeit the truth of God's word so that we, all of us, all of those who have joined us today, can better recognize counterfeit religion, counterfeit faith before it's eternally too late.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Jonathan, I believe what we've covered in our past episodes concerning grace, faith, baptism, and the Holy Spirit, this gives us a foundation as to what we know to be the truth.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Oh, you're exactly right, Cliff. So now that we have this foundation, as you speak of it, under our feet, let's start by looking at what Jack calls the pitfalls.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

And that is where Jack will take us to first.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

All right. So, Cliff, here, Jack, he starts this section with a very sobering thought.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, I know, Jonathan. It's almost like Jack is warning that there will be some on that day who will be totally blindsided.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Yeah, that's actually the weight of it when you think about it. Jesus says in Matthew chapter 7 and verse 23 that there will be people who expect to be see be received by him on the day of judgment, but instead are going to hear, I never knew you depart from me.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Jonathan, I do not want to even imagine what those words would feel like if they were directed at me.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

No, I don't either, Cliff. And honestly, I don't think any serious Christian would want to brush past that warning too quickly.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

So even though we have been studying and understand that we can have assurance in our Christian walk, isn't it a good ideal, Jonathan, to every once in a while kind of do an assurance check just to make sure?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Oh, I absolutely, I would agree. And I don't think um uh that that kind of evaluation, the examination works against assurance. I I think it can actually help strengthen it because what it's doing, it's showing a heart that really wants to please God and just keep on walking in his will.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Jonathan, I think it's also a good way for us to basically take a true look at ourselves and see if there are some areas in our lives that need a little more attention.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

No, I think you're right. And that lines up with actually what Paul um in his letter to the church at Corinth in 2 Corinthians chapter 13 and verse 5. This is what he says. He says, examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. Uh, test yourselves, he says. And and and I don't think that's meant in any way to create panic out there, um, but it is meant, I believe, to make us honest.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

And this doesn't need to be one of those one and done type examinations, does it, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

No, I'll tell our listeners it really doesn't. This is something that, yes, uh, we must do from time to time. In fact, we actually do it every Lord's Day, right? When we partake of the Lord's Supper, we're in in a self-examination, right? Yeah. Um, but again, not because we're trying to live in fear, but because, hey, we really do want to please God and keep on growing.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

It it's like using the Bible as a mirror for us to look into and then see how we look in the light of God's word, right, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Exactly. And and the Bible becomes the mirror. Remember that. The Bible becomes the mirror, and it helps us see what really spiritually needs to be adjusted, uh, maybe corrected or straightened or cleaned up in our lives.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

But Jonathan, I guess there is a danger even in that, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 11:19

Yeah, there is, because what you could do, and some people do this, is they take this self-examination and they turn it into something else entirely. Like what? Well, like something we've talked about before: a checklist. And that's where the danger really begins, brother.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

And this is what we're going to be discussing next.

Self-Examination Without A Checkbox Faith

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Folks, this is not the first time on Scripture Matters that we've talked about this subject. In a previous episode, if you joined us, we said this that if we're not careful, it would be very easy for us as Christians to fall into a habit of a checklist Christianity. Well, what we're going to be talking about today is its first cousin, a checkbox religion, as Jack calls it. Uh, and when we talk about a checkbox religion, we're talking about today a mindset that says, Hey, as long as I do certain visible things and can click my checkbox, then hey, I must be right with God. Now, that is, I think, very similar to what Jesus confronted the scribes and the Pharisees about. There are several problems with this kind of checkbox religion. And the first issue has to do with external versus internal. If you have your Bibles, you can look with us in Matthew chapter 23, beginning in verse 25 and ending in verse 28, where Jesus calls the scribes and Pharisees to task. Why? Because they were focused on the outside of the cup while leaving the inside of the cup unclean. Can you imagine that? Now, what Jesus was showing them is hey, you are focusing on what people can see externally, making sure all those visible boxes are checked while neglecting what God truly sees internally. And let me tell you, folks, that is one of the biggest dangers today of this checkbox religion that Jack is talking about. It can make a Christian appear to be faithful on the outside while their heart is still very far from God.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

And the other problem is a checkbox religion falls short of the whole counsel of God. A Christian who follows this mindset looks at what he has before him and then decides what to him is the most important, and that is what gets his attention the most. If it's going to the church building on Sunday morning, and that is what is important to him, he checks that box that he went to church. But here's the question, folks. While he was there, did he worship the true and living God? Did he give God the glory, honor, and praise that he deserves? Or did he just sit in his seat with his mind on other things that he was going to be doing later on when that preacher ever decides to get finished?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And that is exactly the issue that we're talking about here today, because you may check that box, but your heart still not be engaged. Several times, though, in Matthew's gospel, we'll find that Jesus called people out for missing the point. In Matthew chapter 12 and verse 7, Jesus says, And if you had known what this means, I desire mercy and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless. Then again, in Matthew chapter 15, beginning in verse 8, ending in verse 9, Jesus says, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. So listen, folks, this issue we're talking about here today is not whether outward obedience matters, because it does. We've shown that to be the case. But outward obedience without the heart is not what our God is after.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Jonathan, God appeals to his children to worship him with their heart. It's not just limited to the New Testament, is it?

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Uh no, Cliff, it's not. And you see this emphasis in the Old Testament. For instance, Hosea chapter 6 and Isaiah chapter 29, those prophets they warned God's people that, yes, hey, you needed to obey the law of Moses and law of God, but their worship and obedience also had to come from their heart.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

And Jonathan, even in Jeremiah 7, we're told that Jeremiah warned Judah that worshiping God was far more than just going to the temple.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Oh, that's exactly right, Cliff. Jeremiah warned them that hey, you cannot just simply show up at the temple and assume everything was fine while your hearts and your lives are not right with God. And we also, as well, need to be careful here. Um, this is not one or the other. It really isn't. It's not heart instead of obedience, and it's not obedience without the heart. So I hope people out there understand what we're saying. God desires obedience that comes from a heart that truly belongs to him.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Jonathan Jack even points out that there are signs that you can use to tell if someone has a checkbox type religion.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

No, that's right. And one of those signs, listen to this, is when someone becomes so set in their ways that they are no longer willing to listen, examine, repent, or change. And at that point, the issue is no longer just box checking. The heart has started to become calloused. And that leads us directly, Cliff, into the next danger. It's

Hard-Heartedness And Itching Ears

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called hard-heartedness.

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And that's what we're going to look at next, folks.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

All right. What do we mean today when we talk about hard-heartedness? Folks, hard-heartedness is the condition of becoming stubborn, unyielding, or insensitive to God's will and his word. It's often described as having a calloused conscience. You know how sometimes you get those calluses on your hands? Well, in this case, spiritually, it shows up when a person persistently refuses to obey God's commandment, even after the truth has been made abundantly clear. We're not just talking about ignorance here. It is seeing what is right, but refusing to change. And eventually, listen, if a person continues down that road, they can reach a point where they deliberately choose sin over faithfulness. They can become so unmoved by the saving grace offered by a merciful God that it does not have an effect upon them any longer. There is an old saying that goes, The softest iron can be melted, but the hardest steel, if it refuses to be molded, can only be broken by the hammer. What a quote. And sometimes I'll tell you, good folks, when a heart refuses to be shaped by God's word, God may have to break that hardness in ways that folks a person will not enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

A checkbox religion can be seen by someone who has their checklist and they have checked all the boxes. However, that is where it ends. Now, what do I mean by that? Let's say something else comes up that is not on that list, and if they have come to the last checkbox, then to them their duty is over, and in their own mind, they have done all they need to do to be a Christian, and they will not go one step over that line.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And that is where today this becomes oh so dangerous. Listen, there are still some today, even within the brotherhood, who fit the warning that Paul gave in Timothy, uh, in 2 Timothy chapter 4, verses 3 and 4. Paul said to young Timothy that there would be people out there, hey, that are not going to endure sound doctrine, but they would rather gather teachers to suit their own desires, having itching ears. Now, folks, this is what happens when someone does not want sound doctrine. Or as Cliff said, if it goes beyond their checkbox, their checklist, or it challenges what they've already decided. If they cannot hear what they want to hear in one place, well, hey, they'll just go somewhere else. And sadly, I'll tell you, we see that in our churches far too often. Instead of listening to sound doctrine and changing their ways to obey God's commandments, they change God's commandments to match their ways.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Jonathan, I know that as a preacher, you prepare and present God's word to the very best of your ability, as accurately as possible, by rightly dividing the word of God. But that is just not sufficient for some, is it?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Unfortunately not, Cliff. And and sometimes the issue is not. Not whether truth was taught clearly, okay, but sometimes the issue is whether or not the heart is willing to receive it.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

And that is a hard thing to watch, isn't it, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Oh, it really is. I I can sometimes I can see it from the pulpit in people's reactions because hey, you can preach or teach something that is straight from scripture. I mean, straight from the book, right? You can even just quote scripture. And instead of a person saying, Hey, I need to take some time to examine that, they just immediately start resisting it.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Jonathan, that is someone who, as Paul was talking about, having itching ears, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah, I think that's exactly what Paul was describing. Right here, we're talking about the kind of heart that only wants truth as long as it does not hurt, challenge, correct, or confront.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

So the problem is not that they cannot understand it.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

No, I think that that's certainly not the problem. Sometimes they understand it 100% clearly, they just don't want it to apply to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Man, that may even be more dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I think it is. Uh, because once someone out there starts deciding what parts of God's word that they're willing to accept and which parts they're not going to accept, they're just going to avoid, then listen, they are no longer letting scripture examine them.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

No, it sounds like they're examining scripture.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Yeah, exactly. And let me tell you, good folks, that's a very dangerous place to live.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Jonathan, I know that I've studied with people that once they are baptized, they are satisfied on staying right where they are. They know enough to be comfortable. They are afraid if they learn anything more, it might just shed a light on a sin in their lives. And they would rather just stay where they are instead of trying to grow in the nurture and the admonition of the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, that's exactly uh where hard-heartedness it can sometimes begin quietly, yes. And it may not always start with like open rebellion. Sometimes, Cliff, it just starts with a simple refusal to grow.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

So someone can become spiritually comfortable in a dangerous way?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Oh, absolutely. Comfortable enough to stop asking questions, comfortable enough to stop studying deeply, or comfortable enough to stop changing.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And if the word exposes something, well, then they have a choice to make ignore it or change.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Exactly. And and that is where when you think about it, there's one guy that comes to my mind here. Um, Pharaoh. Uh, he is such a powerful example of what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Because he keeps seeing the truth, but keeps resisting it.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, you think about it. Uh, Pharaoh, man, he saw plague after plague. He saw the power of God displayed in magnificent ways over and over again, but instead of softening, he became even more hard-hearted.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And Jonathan, you see that same spirit in the New Testament, too, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Uh, we wish that weren't the case, but yes, you do. Um, you think about the scribes and the Pharisees, they lived among the time. They were able to see the miracles of Jesus performed, they saw his healings, they saw the evidences surrounding the raising of dead Lazarus. Uh, what an amazing thought.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah, and you would think that would have been enough.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, uh, we we have that hindsight, right? They really would, right? But instead of leading them to stronger faith, listen, it pushed them further into resistance. It made them even more stubborn in their their mindset. It it even strengthened further their desire to kill Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Oh, Jonathan, that is sobering.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Oh, it is. And here's the reason why. Because it shows us uh that uh evidence alone, right? That evidence alone will not soften a heart that is determined in their mindset to resist God.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Jonathan, when a congregation hears the truth preached from the pulpit or taught in a classroom, if it sheds a light on something that is wrong in their lives, then like I said before, they have to make a choice to either ignore it or change.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

That's right. Two choices, right? And and those choices, that question belongs to all of us. You think about it. When God's word shines a light on something in my life, am I willing to humble myself? Am I willing to change? Or do I look for a way around it? Exactly. It comes down to am I willing to repent or am I going to attempt to explain it away? Do I listen or do I, here's one to think about do I get defensive?

SPEAKER_01 27:27

How sad, Jonathan. Jack uses the example of instead of using God's word as a mirror, they will use it as a microscope to see the flaws in everyone else but in themselves.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Cliff, that is such a powerful picture.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Yeah, because a mirror forces me to look at myself.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

But a microscope, hey, that lets me focus on everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

And wow, brother, that is so much easier to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Much, much easier. And it's always easier. I mean, you know this, I know this. It's much easier to look at someone else's flaws than to let God's word expose my own.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

And that is where hard-heartedness becomes dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Exactly, because then God's word is no longer used to examine my own heart. No, it becomes something I use to inspect, criticize, and condemn other people.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

So what should the listener be asking right here?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Well, that's a great question. What should our listeners be thinking about? What questions should they be asking? Well, right here, our listeners, our audience should be asking when scripture corrects me, how do I respond? Do I soften? Do I harden? Do I listen? Or do I resist?

SPEAKER_01 28:52

That is a serious self-check.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

It really is. And it brings us here to another pitfall that Jack warns about. Here it is. Because counterfeit assurance is only seen in a heart that refuses correction.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

It can also show up somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Uh, it can show up in a life that has become far too attached to this world.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

And that is what we need to look at next.

Worldliness And The Slow Drift

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Jonathan, as we begin segment five, worldliness, when Jack starts talking about worldliness in this chapter, I think sometimes Christians immediately assume we are just talking about a list of obvious sins activities.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Yeah, those obvious sinful activities that we often think about, uh, Cliff, while you know it may be true that obvious sin certainly falls into worldliness. I really think Jack is warning about something that is far more subtle than that.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

What do you mean by subtle?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Well, uh what I mean is the danger of becoming so comfortable with the world around us that we slowly stop noticing how much that world is shaping us.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Jonathan, it's almost like spiritual desensitization.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Exactly. That's a big word, but it's a true word because honestly, that's what makes worldliness so dangerous. You know, most people do not wake up one morning and intentionally decide that on this day I'm going to start drifting away from God. Usually it happens gradually. And we're talking about little compromises, right? Little shifts in priorities, little changes in our thought life. And what happens is over time, the world starts influencing us more than the word of God does.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Jonathan, that really fits with what Jack says about sanctification, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

It does. You and I have talked about sanctification a lot back in our study of Romans. But again, sanctification, folks, if you don't know this, it's the process of becoming more and more set apart for God. So if a Christian out there is growing spiritually, then there ought to be a growing difference between the way they think and the way this world thinks. Okay. Not because that we're out here trying to act self-righteous or or superior, no, but because our minds are being shaped by Christ instead of being shaped by our culture.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

And Jonathan, that can be difficult sometimes because we are surrounded by the world every single day.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Oh, yeah. I mean, think about it. We work in this world, we go to school in this world, we hear this world's values, what, constantly through entertainment, social media, uh, news, conversations. Everywhere we turn, we're bombarded with it. And listen, if we're not careful, we can slowly start becoming comfortable with the things that once bothered us spiritually.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Jonathan, I think that is one of the strongest illustrations that Jack uses in this section. The idea that a fish does not know it is wet. Why? Because it spends its whole life surrounded by water, and Christians can become the same way too. Sometimes we become so surrounded by the attitudes and values of the world that after a while they stop feeling worldly to us. Things that once shocked us no longer shock us. Things that once convicted us no longer convicts us. And little by little, what the world celebrates, those things start to become normal to us too.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

And that is a scary, scary thought when you really stop and think about it, good folks. Because worldliness is not always obvious rebellion against God. Sometimes it's simply becoming too attached to this world, too attached to the priorities of this world, too attached to this world's entertainment, too attached. Here's a big one, to the approval of this world, too attached to this world's way of thinking. And that's why uh James, I love the book of James, it gives us such a strong warning in James chapter four. Remember this about friendship with the world? Not because God is trying to take our joy away from us, no, no, no, but because this world is constantly pulling our hearts away from Him.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Jonathan, so let me ask you this then. How does a Christian know when worldliness may be starting to creep into their lives?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

That's a big and a and a great question there, Cliff. I think one of the biggest signs when um is really when the spiritual things of our life start becoming less important to us than the worldly things of this life. And you think about it, people get excited about entertainment, don't they? Yes. When this world's entertainment excites you more than worship, that's a warning sign. When your success matters more than holiness, that's that's a warning sign. When fitting in, and all of us have been in that moment of trying to fit in with people we're around, right? When fitting in matters more to you than your faithfulness, that's a big warning sign. Here's another one, though, to think about. When we begin organizing our lives, our daily lives, our daily lives around this world's priorities instead of God's priorities.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

And Jonathan, that probably doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

No, no, sir, it does not. It usually happens, like we said, slowly but surely. And that's why this chapter is, I mean, just of vital importance. You know, folks, Jack is not in this chapter trying to make us as Christians live a life of panic. He's just warning us not to become careless. Why? Because as we've said in previous episodes, folks, drift is dangerous. Repeat that to yourself. Drift is dangerous, and usually people drift gradually before they ever drift dramatically.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Jonathan, I think another danger is that sometimes Christians compare themselves to the world instead of comparing themselves to Christ.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, absolutely. And when this world becomes the standard of measure for your life, man, it will come extremely easy to justify your compromise, whatever it may be. Because there's always, you look around, you're gonna say, man, there's always somebody living worse than I am, right? But the question is not, am I living better than the world? The question is, am I becoming more like Jesus Christ every day?

SPEAKER_01 36:37

And that is a much more searching question.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Oh, I think it really is, Cliff. And if we're honest, that question will force us all to examine our hearts just uh uh a little bit deeper, right? Because the closer that we grow to Jesus Christ, folks, the less comfortable we should become with the world pulling us, dragging us away from him.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

And Jonathan, another area where there is really starts to show itself is in how Christians treat one another.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Boy, Cliff, uh, I I could preach a sermon on that. It's so true. One of the clearest signs, good folks, of spiritual worldliness is when Christians stop loving each other the way that God has commanded us to love each other.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

And that's where Jack takes us next.

Love For Brethren Reveals The Heart

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Folks, as Cliff uh and I uh go with Jack into this next section here, I really think this one becomes uncomfortable for a whole bunch of Christians. And I'll tell you why, because the focus now shifts from just what we believe doctrinally, okay? Focus shifts from that and starts becoming and examining how we treat one another as Christians.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah, and sometimes people can be very sound doctrinally, but not very loving personally.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

No, that's exactly right. In scripture, here's the thing: it never separates those two things in the way that we as people sometimes do. Okay, listen, folks, you cannot claim to love God while constantly mistreating the very people that are made in his image.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Jonathan, that really fits with what John said in 1 John, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Oh, yeah, it absolutely does. John speaks very strongly about love for the brethren. In fact, he connects it directly to whether someone is truly, remember this? We talked about this, walking in the light.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

And that is serious language.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Very, very serious language, good folks, because John is basically saying, hey, our relationships with fellow Christians reveal something about the condition of our heart.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Jonathan, I think sometimes Christians hear the phrase love for the brethren, and they reduce that down to simply just being polite to one another.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, like they're they're doing that just by walking the church building and shaking a hand, right? Just yeah, but biblical love goes so much deeper than just that surface-level friendship that you could find at just about any foyer of any church building across the country, right? It means caring about each other spiritually, being patient with one another, being uh willing to bear with each other, right? Um, forgiving each other, encouraging one another, and sometimes even having those difficult conversations when you see a brother or sister in Christ that you love drifting spiritually.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

So real love is not just emotional affection, is it?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

No, it goes so much more than just emotional affection. Real biblical love seeks what is best for another person spiritually, even when it is very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Jonathan, one thing I've noticed over the years is that bitterness can slowly destroy love between brethren if it is left unresolved. And we and our spirits that many years ago we visited a church once in a new location where we had moved to. We were totally shocked to see that at the closing amen, each side got up and walked out, but down the outer aisles on their side of the building. Never did anyone ever reach across the aisle to the other. Sometimes Christians can hold on to hurt villains, grudges, or past conflicts for years. And after a while, instead of seeing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, they begin looking at each other almost like enemies. The sad thing is, just like the church Edwin and I visited, many times both people still attend worship together, sitting in the same building together and outwardly appearing faithful. But internally, there is a resentment and a division sitting in their heart. And if we're not careful, we can start justifying attitudes that Jesus never justified.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

And folks, let me tell you, that's the reason why today's subject matters so very much. Because counterfeit assurance can exist in a person who knows all the right verses, says all the right things, and attends all the right assemblies while still allowing hatred, bitterness, jealousy, pride, or division to grow in the heart. You know, that folks, that's why passages like 1 John are so searching. You know, John repeatedly emphasizes that if we are walking in the light, the love for the brethren should be clearly visible in our lives. Not perfect love. We're not talking about perfect love, not sinless relationships, but genuine love. And honestly, Cliff, sometimes one of the clearest tests, I think, of spiritual maturity is not how a person acts when everything is easy, but how they treat fellow Christians when disagreements, misunderstandings, or hurts happen.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Jonathan, I think that's where a lot of Christians struggle, because loving people is not always easy.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

No, it's not. And here's why. Because we as a church are made up of imperfect people, right? And sometimes imperfect people, in fact, many times imperfect people hurt each other, yeah, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes carelessly, and unfortunately, sometimes very deeply.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

So then the question becomes how do we respond when those moments happen?

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, exactly. Because hard heartedness and worldliness can both begin showing themselves in how we handle these relationships within the body of Jesus Christ. Think about it. Do we become bitter? Do we isolate? Isolate ourselves. Do we gossip? Do we start tearing others down? Or do we strive for reconciliation, forgiveness, grace, and spiritual maturity?

SPEAKER_01 44:13

And Jonathan, that really goes back to something we have discussed throughout this entire study on assurance.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Oh, it does. Assurance is not built on pretending that we are perfect. It's not, it's built on walking in the light, confessing sin, growing, repenting, and continuing to pursue Christ sincerely.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

And part of that walking in the light is loving the people Christ died for.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Absolutely. I mean, think about it. If Christ loved the church enough to die for her, then hey, we should love his people enough to forgive, encourage, help, and care for one another.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Jonathan, I think this section really challenges the listener to examine more than just outward faithfulness.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

I agree 100%, brother. It forces us to ask, what kind of heart am I carrying toward other Christians? Because, you know, think about it. Somebody they can sit in the church every week and still have a heart filled with anger, resentment, jealousy, pride, you name it. And here, you know, Jack's point throughout this chapter is that counterfeit assurance often ignores the very condition of the heart.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

So this really becomes another spiritual mirror.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Oh, it does, because uh really, honestly, think about it, all these pitfalls that you and I have discussed here in this episode, they're really pointing us toward one central question. Here it is. Am I sincerely walking with Christ, or am I simply just trying to convince myself and maybe convince others that I am?

Genuine Assurance Versus Counterfeit Confidence

SPEAKER_01 46:11

And that is where Jack begins bringing this chapter to a close.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

And be honest with you, brother, because we've seen a number of warnings in this chapter.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Oh, Jonathan, I totally agree with you there. But I've got to ask you on behalf of our audience, how should a faithful Christian feel at the end of all of this?

SPEAKER_00 46:36

You know, honestly, Cliff, knowing Jack Wilkie, the way that I've been blessed to get to know him, I don't believe for even a moment that Jack intends for a faithful Christian to walk away from today's episode feeling hopeless or or terrified whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So this chapter is not meant to destroy assurance?

SPEAKER_00 47:00

No, not at all. In fact, I think what Jack is really trying to do is destroy counterfeit assurance while strengthening those with genuine assurance.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

And there really is a difference between those two things, aren't there?

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Uh a Grand Canyon difference between those two things. See, good folks, counterfeit assurance says, Jonathan, I never need to examine myself. That's what counterfeit assurance says. But biblical assurance says, hey, I want God's word to keep on shaping and correcting me no matter how tough it could be.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

So then self-examination is not the enemy of assurance.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

No, healthy self-examination, Cliff, can actually strengthen assurance. How so? Because when a Christian sees that they still want to repent, still want to obey, and still walk in the light, and still desiring every day to grow even more spiritually, that says something about the condition of their heart.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

So the very concern about pleasing God, that can actually point towards a sincere faith.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Absolutely. A hardened heart, think about it, does not care about pleasing God. A worldly heart does not care about drifting. A rebellious heart does not want correction.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

But a sincere Christian does.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Jonathan, so let me ask you this then. Why do you think some Christians become afraid of self-examination?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Well, brother, I think it really boils down. I think uh it's because sometimes people confuse weakness with rebellion.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Oh, wait a minute there, Jonathan, because you better explain that, brother, because I need your help on that one.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Well, here's the key, Cliff. Struggling is not the same thing as resisting God? Let me say it again, good folks. Okay, struggling is not the same thing as resisting God. I mean, Cliff, let me just ask you. Do Christians, sincere Christians, do they ever struggle? Oh, yes, they do. Do Christians ever stumble? Well, I know I do. Do Christians ever feel like they have areas of their life where they need to grow?

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Then, brother, the there's a huge difference between a Christian who is struggling while still sincerely pursuing Christ, and someone who's just refusing to listen to Christ altogether.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

So the issue is not whether someone has ever struggled.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

No, absolutely not. The issue is what direction is your heart moving in?

SPEAKER_01 49:57

In other words, is the person still walking towards Christ?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Exactly. You're getting it, brother.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

All right. So the question is, are you still listening when scripture corrects you?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yes, sir. And with that, are you still willing to repent when God exposes something in your life?

SPEAKER_01 50:20

So, Jonathan, it appears this chapter ends with the ultimate question: Is your heart becoming softer towards God or harder towards God?

SPEAKER_00 50:31

No, I think you're I think you're you're right on that, Cliff, because over and over again, right? Jack brings us back to one thing, the heart, right? Not perfection, not sinlessness, not flawlessly checking those boxes, right? But sincerity, humility, repentance, growth, and a genuine desire to walk faithfully with Christ.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Jonathan, I gotta be honest with everyone here, because I think that is one of the most encouraging things about this entire chapter.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Oh, I agree. Because if there's somebody out there who's listening or watching this episode and sincerely asking, Am I walking with Christ? That's not the attitude of somebody that's running from God.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

No, that's the attitude of someone seeking him.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

And Hebrews chapter 11 and verse 6, folks, it reminds us that God rewards those who diligently seek after him.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

So the warning of Matthew 7, it is real.

SPEAKER_00 51:40

It's very real.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

But faithful Christians do not need to live in constant panic.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

No, instead of panic, just replace that with humility. Live with a repentant lifestyle like we've talked about. Live with daily self-examination. But also, Cliff, you got to live with confidence. You got to live in the grace and the faithfulness of God.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

And I think that balance is what makes this chapter so important.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

I think so too, because again, Cliff, counterfeit assurance says don't examine anything.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

But biblical insurance says keep walking in the light.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

And that is where genuine confidence in Christ is found.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Well, to that, I say amen. Brother, this has been an awesome conversation to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I'm

Final Encouragement And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 52:35

right there with you, brother. Each week, you know, I start to think, how in the world can we top what we've done this week, right? And then every time, God always shows us the way, doesn't he? He sure does. And let me tell you, I hope that everybody out there feels much the same way.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Yeah, Jonathan, I'm glad you said that. I had someone share with me last week, even that watching this podcast is one of the highlights of her week. And man, that hit me right in the feels, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Oh, I do, I do. I don't know that sister you're talking about. Folks, I was thinking about it. Whether this is your 14th episode, or maybe this is your very first episode. Cliff and I again just want to sincerely thank you for spending this time with us.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

Yes, it truly lifts our heart to know that you are a part of this journey alongside of Jonathan and me.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

True. And here's the reality of what we're doing here every single week. Folks, you are not just a silent partner.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Not at all, right, Jonathan. The audience here on Scripture Matters is a vital part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

That's right. We want every listener, every member of our audience to feel engaged with what we're doing every single week.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Yes. So if you have questions or comments from today's review of chapter 12 or any of our previous episodes, we would invite you to please contact us using the email addresses and social media information you see on your screen.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Yeah, we genuinely love uh hearing from you know, uh, you may be watching this out of uh you may be behind a few episodes at some point uh from where we are in real time, but you can still write us, even if that's the case. Just remember, we're thankful for any feedback, any encouragement that you continue to give us.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

Remember, good folks, if you have not already done so, please let me encourage you again to like, share, and subscribe. Those three things help us to spread the word of God to an even wider audience.

SPEAKER_00 54:43

And here's how we know that you've been doing that because our viewership just continues to go up, up, and up. And so to that, I I can only say to God be the glory.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Yeah, for everything we do here on the Scripture Matters podcast.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

Yeah, so one more time, thank you, folks, for joining us here today.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

And we hope you'll join us again next Friday at 3:30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major platforms.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

All right, until next time, my name is Jonathan Sanford.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

And I'm Cliff Thompson.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

And we're reminding you folks to stay grounded, stay focused. And remember, as always, good folks, Scripture Matters. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Scripture Matters Podcast. We'll be back with a new conversation every Friday at 3.30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms. Until then, may the word guide you and your week and as always. Remember Scripture Matters.