Scripture Matters Podcast - Episode 16 (Final Interview: Jack Wilkie)

This is the 16th episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast, with hosts Cliff Thompson & Jonathan Sanford. In today's episode we conclude our review of the book published by Focus Press, and written by Jack Wilkie, "You Are Saved - A Christian's Assurance." As a way of tying a bow on this entire journey, in today's episode we welcome back author and evangelist, Jack Wilkie. Please like, share and make sure you've subscribed to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published alongside the Watters Road Church of Christ. Below is a synopsis of this week's episode:

Saying “I know I’m saved” can feel impossible if you’ve spent years wondering whether God is pleased with you or just waiting to catch you on a technicality. We wanted to end our book review series with the author himself, so we brought Jack Wilkie back to talk about the heart of You Are Saved: not a smug confidence in ourselves, but a steady, Scripture-shaped assurance grounded in Jesus.

We dig into why Christians get nervous when assurance and obedience are mentioned together, and why the gospel actually works the other way around: we obey from rest in Christ, not to finally earn rest. Along the way, we tackle the real-life pressure points that stir doubt, including baptism as the starting line, the danger of “scripture wars” that refuse the whole counsel of God, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as the source of inside-out transformation (not just “try harder”).

We also talk through common fears that tender-hearted believers carry quietly: waiting for assurance to arrive as a sudden emotion, anxiety over partaking of the Lord’s Supper “unworthily,” and the haunting question, “What if I’m wrong?” Jack explains why Matthew 7 is often misapplied, what counterfeit assurance can look like, and how accepting God’s forgiveness changes the way we pray.

We even shift gears into concerns about division in the church and what conversations may be next, plus where you can find Jack’s work and how to download the digital version of the book for free. If this helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs peace, and leave a review that helps others find the conversation.

Transcript

Why Assurance Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Over the last several months, we've been walking through a wonderful book written by author Jack Wilkie. You are saved a Christian's Assurance.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

And if you have been following along with us, you already know this is not just been a review of a book.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

No, this has been a conversation about something that is deeply personal.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Can a Christian know he is saved?

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Can a Christian live with assurance?

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Can a Christian obey God without living every day in fear?

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Can we take sin seriously without doubting the promise of God?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Can we say, I am saved without sounding arrogant?

SPEAKER_03 0:58

And honestly, maybe the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Can we learn and stand on what God has actually said?

SPEAKER_03 1:05

Well, if you were with us two weeks ago, we finished the book.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

We have walked through every chapter.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

And today we get to sit down one final time with the author himself.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Brother Jack Wilkie joins us today again.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

As we tie a bowl around our review of You Are Saved. Right here on another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. You've tuned in to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published in cooperation with the Waters Road Church of Christ. Looking for a church home in the Houston area that lovingly stands upon God's Word? Waters Road is the place where you belong. If you need more information about the Waters Road Church of Christ, check out their website at www.wrcomc.org. We'd like to thank each of you who helped make this podcast possible, especially the prayerful support of our wives and families. And now, my good folks, let's get back to another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast.

Welcoming Jack Wilkie Back

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Well, Jack, welcome back once again to the Scripture Matters Podcast. Man, I gotta tell you, we're excited to have you with us again. And this time, we're not just at the halfway point, we've officially finished our review of this entire book.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

It's great to be back with you guys. Uh, had a really great time last time, and uh, I'm excited that you've gotten through the whole book. Uh then, you know, looking at some of the things we're gonna talk about. I'm just uh hopeful that it's been a help for the people uh for your congregation there, for the people listening and watching. And and again, just glad to be back on with you.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Jack, we really do appreciate you do coming back with us. But when you joined us the first time, we were only six chapters in. Now we've gone all the way through chapter 13, and I think it's fair to say this book has given us a lot to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah, I hope so. Uh you know, that's I I I wanted to keep it the focus narrow, but also there's a lot of different ways to take it, right? And so, and the the funny thing is, every time I write a book, I've got to try and cram it into 13 chapters for Bible class quarters, you know. And sometimes that's really hard to do. And for this one, it just presented itself. All these things need to be covered.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

And and when we had you with us the last time, as as just was mentioned, we had you at the halfway point, kind of the middle uh of our journey. But now that we've kind of walked through this entire book, uh, I just gotta ask you this. When uh a prospective reader out there finishes that final chapter of You Are Saved, what do you hope maybe Jack has changed in in the way they view their salvation?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, I hope there's that confidence. You know, the the assurance that I wrote to cover, I hope they feel that. I just hope that progressively, more and more, it's answered the the questions in their minds, the doubts and things like that. And uh, you know, even if it wasn't if it didn't give them 100%, you know, if you're coming from a place where you had zero assurance, but it's it's getting better, well, that's good. That's yeah, I'm hoping it's a step in the right direction.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Jack, as we reviewed the second half of the book, it felt like you moved from defining insurance to showing what assurance looks like in daily life. We just got to know was that intentional in the structure of the book? Because if it was, wow, that was brilliant, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Well, I appreciate it. It was, I wanted to, you got to hit the basics, right? The the fundamentals of how assurance happens. But then the questions start coming out. Well, what about this? What about that? Well, I know that it says that my sins are forgiven, but what about the fine print, right? And and those are the things that's where the a book like this matters. Anyone can say baptism forgives your sins and and faith and and all of those things, but what about the practical? What about when I still stumble? What up about my doubts and things like that?

SPEAKER_03 5:10

You know, early on, like you said, you're kind of building that foundation, but for us in our review, once we got to like chapters seven, eight, and nine, man, we seem to move into some areas um where people get nervous. Um, obedience, baptism, work uh of the Holy Spirit. And again, I just gotta ask, was that progression kind of intentional?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

It was, and there were some of those where those were kind of um not difficult or unpleasant to write, but it was kind of with that knowledge of like, okay, I have to wait into this. Uh, I can't, it's not gonna be complete if I don't handle this, but be some people that might not like what I have to say about this, but it's what needs to be said, and it's because we don't say this that people lack assurance, and so yeah, we we have to cover that.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Hey, real quickly, I gotta tell you, Cliff and I, we had some discussions about are we gonna be chicken, are we gonna be cowards and skip over this other stuff, right? But no, we we both came together and said, Hey, if if you're brave enough to cover this, we should do it as well. So we did, I'm glad to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Jack, in the second half of the book, you deal with some areas as we have just about been talking about.

Assurance That Strengthens Obedience

SPEAKER_02 6:18

People often get nervous, especially when assurance and obedience are discussed together. Now, why do you think that some Christians hear assurance and immediately feel that obedience is being minimized?

unknown 6:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Part of it can be the the teaching that some places have that you basically earn your salvation, and that leads to that. But part of it is there is so much emphasis on don't take this for granted, don't slack, and that's a good emphasis, but it's overdone that you're you're not working from rest, you're working to rest. Well, you've got to rest in Christ, and then you can work. Like you're you're based on the uh the I use the Golden Gate Bridge uh illustration in the book, right? Where there's a safety net under them. You can work so much better when you've got a safety net under you. When you know I don't have to be perfect, but I do want to get it right, and and I I do want to work and not not just sit around and not do anything, but yeah, it's it's the safety net that you have to keep going.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah, you know, one thing we really appreciated as we worked through this book, um not even one time did I ever feel like you presented assurance as like this permission to treat obedience carelessly. But I I guess my question to you is how do we help Christians in our local congregations to see that biblical assurance actually strengthens obedience rather than weakens it?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, there is that nervousness. I mean, there's so much cheap grace around us, right? That people immediately hear that and just get worried that that's what you're preaching. It's not at all. And and so helping Christians see that the assurance strengthens obedience is your it's not a list of it's not a box to check. And because the thing about a list of boxes to check, no matter how long your list is, it still runs out at some point. There's still an end to it. Whereas if this is just a lifestyle where you can just grow and grow and grow and get better and better and better, knowing the whole time you're a Christian, that's helpful. It's not just looking and going, Did I check all the boxes? Did I get everything? You know, you just keep every day you go, okay, I can do better today. If I know better, I'll do better.

Reading All The Gospel Texts

SPEAKER_02 8:25

Jack, how do you lead the conversation of those who want to focus on one scripture of the gospel, such as Romans 10, 9, but will not consider the whole counsel of God and therefore will never take into account X 238?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, last time I was on, we talked a little about the debate I did, and that that's uh I ran into it there. You run into it all the time of people doing what I call scripture wars of like, well, you got this verse, but I've got this one. Just take all of them together. They all fit together. If you know, they they fit perfectly together if you read all of them and and uh just look at them that way, rather than one system that I bring to the text and I've got to cram everything into it, and if it doesn't, I'll just throw it away.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Hey, right now on Wednesday nights, I'm studying uh uh the Herab's book called The Starting Line. Jack,

Baptism As The Starting Line

SPEAKER_03 9:14

are you familiar with that book? Yeah, of course, great book. Yeah, uh we're studying that with young professionals, and we we're in in week three, and it's been a great study. Why do you think, though, that some Christians out there maybe have unintentionally treated baptism like it's the the finish line instead of that starting line, that that beginning of our life in Christ? And how can can I help young Christians or even you know long-tenured Christians, right, to avoid this pitfall of thinking I'm baptism, okay, I I I I've been baptized, I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

That is one of the saddest things when you see someone baptized and then you almost never see them again, or they're just very detached, or whatever. And it's the church's job, obviously, to teach them exactly what you're doing with the starting line, like, hey, that was the start of the Christian life, not the the end point. But for the people themselves, a part of it is teaching what baptism is, and it's not just the moment of your sins being washed away, it is that, Acts 22, 16, but it's also the moment of signing your life over to somebody else, the moment of dying to self and being raised to a newness of life, Romans 6. And so the the new life has to be different, it can't just be the same old life, it's got to change.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Jack,

The Holy Spirit From Inside Out

SPEAKER_02 10:26

you had those who will not accept the fact that the Holy Spirit lives in you as you have that indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8 points out very clearly if the Holy Spirit is not living inside you, you have enmity against God. Now, how often do you run into those who will not be willing to believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? And what is your manner to refute them of that?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Unfortunately, you do run into it from time to time. Uh, I feel like it's an older doctrine that maybe is getting lesser, but there it's still out there. To refute that, I mean, Romans 8 is a great text, they're so worried. Again, it's the worried about going too far the wrong direction, and so they hedge too far in the opposite direction. And so it's worried about confirming miracles and things like that. But when you look at what the text is saying about why the spirit was given to us, the the what you really got to start getting into is can uh what makes us different than the world around us? And if it's just trying harder, yeah, like that. Well, they could read the Bible and try to do all these things too. Somebody in the world could be just as moral and and just no, the there's a change from the inside out that happens with the spirit. And so focusing on what the spirit does for us is is the the crux of that discussion.

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Yeah, Jack, before I go on to the next question, you know, there there was a congregation here just right down the road from us, uh, and they had a gospel meeting where their whole gospel meeting was about the Holy Spirit. So I I spent some time just watching every night of the gospel meeting and came down to the last night, and not one time did they ever speak of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. It was kind of like what you said, basically, if you study the word enough, then that's the Holy Spirit living. If you invest enough time to study, and that just broke my heart to and Cliff and I have uh brothers in Christ, sisters in Christ, and we know of that attend there, and it's like, wow, uh, I don't know how they can uh can can feel that way when the scripture's so clear. Hey, uh

Faith Before Feelings

SPEAKER_03 12:29

a lot of people want uh assurance to feel like this sudden emotional experience. Um but when you discuss the spirit, um, you seem to to point people back to God's promises, um, his word. How um how should Christians think about the relationship between the spirit, the scripture, and the assurance that we've been talking about?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

That is a really dangerous game for people to play, is waiting on the feeling. It you can't produce the feeling, and so you're waiting to be hit with it, right? And and so the emotional experience like you're talking about, and that's just a backwards way of looking at it. Where what you're supposed to do, what we're called to do is have faith. And so faith means reading these verses that tell me this and telling myself to believe it, telling myself, hey, if it says that, that's how it is. And and that is what faith is, and the more you can do that, the more you you will eventually get the emotional, the feeling of security, the feeling of love and all of that. But if you're waiting for that at the start, it's not gonna happen. It it is of faith, it and faith is not an emotional experience.

Lord’s Supper Fears And Trust

SPEAKER_02 13:40

Jack, how would you answer the Christian who wants to know how one knows that they're partaking of the Lord's Supper in an unworthy way?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

That's a great question, and that's a big part of this, right? That uh challenges our assurance every week as we've got that reminder, examine yourself and well, man, what if I forgot something? What if you know or I did something wrong this week or whatever? That's where you go back to well, if there's anything you need to repent of, confess, or even make right with a brother, do that. But if there's not, if you're not sure, put it in God's hands. That's that's faith, once again, is saying, You know about this better than I am. If there's something I need to do, help me see it and know it and do it. Yeah, I like that. And then trusting that he will.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

I like that.

unknown 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Jack, do you think part of the struggle that we see with assurance, do you think that part of that comes from I guess looking for the wrong kind of evidence that God is working within us?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yeah, yeah. Part of the bit is that emotional thing we just talked about. Part of it is just, you know, expecting overnight change, uh, things like that. There's there's a lot of different ways that that can go. And just again, grounding yourself in the faith. When the the it's not better overnight, when a sin struggle doesn't just magically go away like that, keep going back to faith. Keep going saying, He's still with me, he's still helping me through it, he's you know, whatever, he'll give me what I need.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Jack Jonathan and I discussed the fact that a Christian who is continuing to walk in the light is, in a sense, secure in that walk.

Falling Away And Knowing Where You Stand

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Now, you stated that when you believe a Christian can fall, you have the ability to know where you stand. Jack, can you explain that just a little bit deeper, please, sir?

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Yeah, that was uh a point uh I really wanted to push hard. Is there are those that believe you can't lose your salvation, and there's two ways that goes is either nothing ever changes. Once you say the magic words, you're just good forever and ever, no matter what happens. Uh, and then there's those that believe that if you do walk away from the church and your faith and your belief and your morals and all that, that means you just never were really saved. Well, if that's the case, how can you know right now? Yeah, if for the first guy they're saying fruits don't matter at all, fruits are no evidence of that you're actually saved. Well, then how do you know you said the sinner's prayer right or that it took or whatever? Right if there's no fruits. For the other one, how do you know right now that someday you won't walk away and your church members will go, Well, I guess he never was saved? Well, that means right now you're not. So how would you know? But if you can lose your faith and the evidence of it is the fruit that your life is bearing, then you can know right now.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

In

What If I’m Wrong

SPEAKER_03 16:16

chapter 11, which really it was a turning point for me in this book. When I got to chapter 11, there's all this build-up, assurance, assurance, and all of a sudden the title just slapped me right in the face. Well, what if I'm wrong? Okay. Um, that was though hey, one of the most helpful chapters uh for us because it addressed a fear that a lot of the Christians in our very churches that that Cliff Shepherds and I minister to, that they carry silently carry with them. What made you, I think, decide uh that that question needed its own chapter devoted to it?

SPEAKER_00 16:54

That one, uh, so I might have mentioned this last time. This is the first book I wrote out of order. And that one and the sin problems uh chapter were the two I wrote first because those are the the big ones, right? If somebody lacks assurance, it's either because of sin in their life or doctrinal concerns. And because we do such a uh good job, I think, of emphasizing the importance of right doctrine in the churches of Christ, we have to go extra far to shore up and say, but that you're you're not saved because of your doctrinal rightness. Now you want to be doctrinally right because out of obedience to God, but that's not what saves you. And so you you get saved, then you are doctrinally right because you're saved, and then you keep working on it again. You trust God to guide you, you're asking for for help in that, but that is arguably the biggest reason members of the churches of Christ don't have assurance, which is why I started with that chapter.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Okay, Jack, do you think some Christians have been taught, maybe unintentionally, to view God as someone looking for, say, a technicality to condemn them? And if not, where do you think that this perspective finds its origin?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

That's exactly it. Is that is taught, and I think it is unintentionally, but it is taught, and it's from a mist teaching of Matthew 7. Many will say to me, Lord, Lord, and that is taught about people who are doctrinally wrong. That's not what that chapter is about. Now, that's not a past to be doctrinally wrong. You always have to hedge with that and say, Oh, you can just do whatever you want. But what that chapter is talking about is the fruits that you're bearing in your life, right? And so when people hear that and think, Well, there's gonna be a lot of people that went to church every day of their life and get up there and find out they were wrong about something and that's gonna condemn them. And so the key to that is coming back around to again, asking God guide God's guidance. He's he one of those promises that we have to take on faith is whoever asks, it will be given to him. And so if you say, God, if there's something that's gonna keep me out of heaven that I'm doctrinally wrong about, show them. Reveal it.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah, reveal it.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Trust them. And and it's not our job to you know interfere and say, Well, they didn't ask the right way, or like uh we'll let God sort that stuff out. You want to be right, but you approach it that way, out of faith rather than out of fear.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Right, right. Okay. So all three of us would say exactly the same. We want to be right with God. It's a statement that that we would make and feel very sincere in making the statement. But when does that statement move from being something healthy and uh a sign of humility to becoming something that is an unhealthy fear?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

That's another really good question. Uh, because it walks a very fine line, doesn't it? It it and it can look like humility, but it's really just fear-based salvation. It's constantly looking over your shoulder of like, man, am I doing something wrong? And so it's as you said, it's something we all want to be right with God, but it's again working from that place of rest, working from a tray place of trust in Jesus and his promises, that's where it's humility. And you can say, you know what, I'm asking him for help, and he's gonna give it to me if I need it, and or I know he's gonna give it to me, and it's not just uh as as the you mentioned a minute ago, Cliff, that God's looking for a technicality. Right. That's not it at all.

Counterfeit Assurance And Matthew 7

SPEAKER_02 20:06

You know, Jack, in chapter 12, whenever Jonathan and I we were going through it, it was very sobering because it deals with counterfeit assurance. Now, after spending so much of the book encouraging assurance, why was it important to include a whole chapter that warns against false assurance?

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah, it's funny. That was the chapter I wrote last, actually. I mentioned going out of order, and I came to that one and I had outlined it, and I didn't have a chapter for that in there, and I came back around to I've got to talk about false assurance. I've got to talk about this. And part of it was dealing with Christians who had their doctrinal ducks in a row, but are some of the most difficult, uh, heartless people I've ever met. And you see that and go, okay, that's great that you baptized for the remission of sins. That's great that you don't have an instrument on stage. That's great you've got your doctrinal priors in line, but you missed something along the way, which was the Pharisees, right? You know, where Jesus said this, you should have done both things of focus on the details and love and have mercy and things like that. And so um, that's one version of false assurance. We'll talk about you know some of the the um the manifestations of it, but that is that should scare everybody and not like live in fear, because again, this is a book helping you not live in fear, I hope, but that it should make you at least take stock, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

Wow, Matthew chapter seven, right? Um, when you think about the words of Jesus, it can be terrifying for people who kind of already struggle with assurance. But how do we handle that passage, Jack, honestly, without just crushing some tender hearted Christians?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, and that's that's the one where you have to look and say, Is he looking at somebody who was just you know had their heart pointed towards God and were trying to please him with every bit of their being, and he looked and well you Miss that one thing, or well, you had that one struggle. No, he's looking at people who the fruits were rotten where they can say I did something for God that they checked a couple of boxes, because you see these people it through the gospels. You see the rich young ruler, right? That's the kind of person he's talking about. Look, look, I kept all of these commands for my youth, or the Pharisee and the tax collector that goes and says his prayer, well, you know, I thank you, I'm not like him. I do this, this, this, and that. And but that's not what he's looking for. And that's somebody who would say, Didn't I say Lord, Lord, and do many things in your name? That's the kind of person Jesus is talking about. And I think we've misapplied it when people think it is the person striving their hardest to be right with God.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Jack, you talked about pitfalls, like uh you just said box checking, hard-heartedness, worldliness, and the lack of love for the brethren. Yeah. Now, which of those do you think is the most difficult for Christians to recognize in themselves?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I think hard-heartedness, maybe because it's it covers all of the other topics a little bit, it's it's the most broad. But in another sense, the hardest one to recognize is the one that's your particular blind spot, right? And the one that I deal with the most and the one that you deal with the most is gonna be the one that's hardest for us to see. And so that is where we've got to be really careful to realize what the possible things could be, and then again, just pray for guidance of like if this is a blind spot for me, help me see it.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Let me see it. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Later on in the book, you uh give this statement that really stood out to to Cliff and I calling uh the Bible uh as a mirror versus a a microscope. That idea really stood out to both Cliff and I. Why are we so I think just tempted to use scripture to examine everybody else before we ever take a moment to to look at ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 23:51

It's yeah, it's that same thing of the blind spot of I can read a scripture and be like, oh, that's so-and-so, that's their problem, you know. But my problem is not as clear to me, right? And even if I think I know my problem, you know, that's one of the hardest things you'll ever do is knowing yourself and your own way of lying to yourself, right? That I mean the Bible tells us the heart is deceitful above all things, and don't trust in your own understanding. It tells us all those things because that's it's true, right? And so again, I keep hammering this point, but that's the beauty. This is how we can have assurance is faith. Knowing that, saying, I'm not very good at diagnosing my own weaknesses, but God says he'll help me if I ask him to do it for me. And so keep doing that, and that's the mirror, that's opening the scriptures, that's praying that he'll help you see it in the scriptures and and using it as that mirror. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Jack, what would you say to someone who let's say they read your chapter 12 and immediately become afraid that they have counterfeit assurance?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I think I would tell them that concern is a good concern. Uh that you know, that you're in the right place. Um, if if you're looking at yourself going, man, have I done this? That's good. That means there's a humility there. The person who has the counterfeit assurance is almost always the person who's not even asking that. They don't care. That there that hard-heartedness makes them think, I'm great, like the Pharisee, like the rich young ruler. Look what all I've done for God, I'm good. I know, you know, I'm they've got a different kind of self-assurance, which is what you don't want to have. And so if you don't have a self-assurance, that's a good thing. You just want to make sure you've got an assurance grounded in God.

unknown 25:26

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Yeah, as we talked about self-assurance versus Christ assurance, right? Yeah, yes. Yeah.

Forgiveness That Changes Prayer

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Jack in chapter 13, you talk about something I I love uh in sermons and sharing with people, talking about Jesus easy yoke. Uh it's not a phraseology that we are uh you're just really familiar with in today's society, right? But um, when we share this, how do we balance uh take up your cross, right? With my yoke is easy, my burden is light. How do we make a balance there?

SPEAKER_00 25:58

That's a tough one. Because uh you're talking about burdens in both directions. The difference is this one's possible, and this one you're getting help for. The the yoke that the Pharisees were putting on the yoke that we put on ourselves, that every man-made religion puts on people, is impossible. There is no ever being good enough. There's you don't you'll never have assurance in any man-made religion, including the man-made versions of Christianity. And so only in Jesus can you actually find true rest. But it's again, from that rest, you can take up a cross, you can do the difficult things, and it's because it's not you who lives, but him who lives in us, Galatians 2, right? And so um that's what makes that difficult calling of taking up the cross possible is the desire to do it and the faith that he'll help us do it.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Jack Jonathan and I talked about this several times, but do you think churches sometimes unintentionally make people feel more comfortable saying, I hope I'm saved, than saying, I know I'm saved.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

It's viewed by a lot of people as arrogance to say I know I'm saved because they think it's self-assurance. And that's the key is getting back to it's not self-assurance. If it is self-assurance, that's bad. You shouldn't be saying it.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

But as you I like their phraseology, Christ assurance.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

One of the one of the final, I think, practical ideas in this book that really just man, it it shocked me. It was talking about accepting forgiveness, which for me personally, and I think for many Christians, one of the hardest things that we ever do. Um, why do you think that we often uh ask God for forgiveness, but struggle to thank Him as though we have actually received the forgiveness we've asked for?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

The beauty of God's forgiveness, as Jeremiah 31 says, and it's quoted in Hebrews, I think, chapter eight, uh, he'll forgive our this is the beauty of the new covenant, is he'll forgive our sins and remember them no more. That's hard to get our mind around an all-knowing God forgetting our sins, forgiving and forgetting. We can't forget. And so I can, you know, uh it's it's strange to think that God forgot something that I'm holding against myself. I know I did it. I know it's still in the back of my mind. And guess whose job it is to remind us of that? Satan, the accuser, right? That that accusation, that's not from God. That's not God saying, Hey, remember that thing you did last year. That's you know, the other side. And so um realizing the forgiveness comes from God's side, that he's already forgotten it, moved on, it's been paid for, paid in full because of Jesus. That that's why it's difficult, is because of our memory. So we've got to trust that he's taken it away.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah, to add what that Jonathan just said, we have a brother at Waters, brother Kevin Watson. First time I heard him say, and thank you, God, because you are a good God to forgive, it kind of took me aback, but I have learned a lot by what that we're talking about. That Jack, you also talk about praying boldly. What changes in a Christian's prayer life when they truly believe that they are a forgiven child of God?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

This is something I I'm still working on, even having written the book. You know, I'm uh I still have to internalize these truths. The confidence that you have, it's not somebody who's annoyed with you going, oh, this guy again. You know, it's not somebody who doesn't want to hear from you or going, hey, why are you talking to me after everything you've done? It's your father who loves you, who, you know, Jesus who died for you. That all of everything that went into making it even possible for you to pray should give you the confidence, like, wow, he wants to hear from me. Why would I not talk to him? Why would I not bring these things before him? And so it adds that confidence for sure.

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Jack, I I've gotten to know you a little bit over the last few months, especially just in the conversations we've had. And you don't seem like the type of person would say, Hey, I'm gonna write this book. Uh, somebody's gonna read it, and immediately all their assurance issues are gonna just fly out the window right away, right? Uh yeah. So at the end of the book, you tell people to give it time, which I thought was a beautiful statement. Um, why is that such an important message for someone out there who reads this book who has spent maybe a lot of their life doubting their assurance?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Building faith is not easy. I mean, you see it in the Bible, Abraham and and just even the great people of faith, it there were it was not a straight line up, right? There were peaks and valleys, there were ups and downs. And so getting ourselves to believe in the promises that lead to our assurance, you're gonna believe it some days, and then you're not gonna believe it some days. You're gonna struggle, you're gonna have those doubts in the back of your mind. The key is to come back to these truths and train yourself. It takes it's it's literally like a muscle that you're working, you know, that that you're building it up, a reminder to think, God, you know, Jesus paid it all. It's it's been taken care of. And so it's gonna take some time.

What Readers Say And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Jack, since the book has been out and people have, I guess, interacted with it. What kind of responses have you heard from readers? And have any of them really stood out to you?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah, I really wanted to hear this.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

It's been overwhelmingly positive. And uh, the best one uh I I had some early readers kind of before I put it out of people who wanted to take a look and uh give me some feedback. And uh a lady, I mean, uh, literally the next day sent it the next day and uh said, I just finished the book and I was like, wow, you you were really motivated. She said, I've struggled with this every day of my life, and she says, I'm in tears because I finally understand, you know, that I I am saved. And you know, to be honest, it writing it brought me to tears. The the tears are not from the greatness of me as an author, the tears are from the truths of God's word, you know. That a couple of those chapters in your book, yeah. A couple of those chapters towards the end. I was just uh you know, I I would go up for lunch or whatever to my wife, and she's like, You okay? Like, yeah, it's a really good thing, but you know, it's it's heavy, you know, it's it's strong.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

So uh are there any parts of the book that you look back now and they they seem to have connected more with the readers more than than say other parts of the book?

SPEAKER_00 32:00

I think it was those ones we talked about, uh, about where the doubts come from. Doubts about being doctrinally wrong, doubts about your sins, things like that. That's what plagues people, and so I think those ones especially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Jack, speaking of looking back, is there anything you wish you had been able to say more fully in the book?

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Yeah. You know, I I like the way the book turned out. It's uh some of those chapters could be books unto themselves, you know. The Holy Spirit, as you talked about, things like that. And so uh there are things that I would like to flesh out more, maybe in later in a in a different way. But uh it so in that sense, yeah. But as far as what the book itself holds, I think it it it's not too long, but it's uh it got in what I needed to say as well.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Yeah, you talk about some of those uh chapters, could it could have been books themselves when we were doing some of those episodes of Scripture Matters? We were going, boy, we are taking up a lot of time here.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah, there's a there's a lot of scripture behind things to look into for sure.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

But it's it's a good thing. If a if a Christian, though, let's just say you've got a person out there and they finish this book and they say, Jack, I want to believe this, but I'm still struggling. I mean, is there anything that you would encourage them to do next?

SPEAKER_00 33:09

You know, I would really say look at what particular thing is the hold up. Is it a sin? Is it a doctrinal doubt? Is it something about God? One of the things that makes this hard is we cast God in the same way we knew our earthly father. And if your earthly father was harsh, if he was distant, or if he was whatever, that's a lot for a lot of people to overcome. And again, that's one of those things that's gonna take time. And so explore which of the things is the the hang-up for you to feel assurance and realize that doesn't have to be a lifelong thing, but it might be something you're gonna have to work on.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

You know, Jonathan, I totally agree with you concerning needing to preach as well as teach more of the meat of the word. But Jack, just as a baby, you cannot let them be nursing on a milk for dinner and then for supper, hey, here's a ribeye steak. Go ahead and eat it.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

So, how would you suggest progressing a congregation from weaning them off of milk and feeding them more of the meat of the word?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah, it's such a case-by-case basis, but I think you can kind of do both at the same time in a sense of you you kind of know who you can challenge and you know who needs the milk of the word. Um, there always should be the basic foundational milk that is giving people this assurance. Because uh, you know, I talk about some very niche, some very detailed things in the scriptures that are very much for mature Christians. And I want to make sure, and that's why I wrote one of the biggest reasons I wrote this book, is like, I'm not saying if you don't have this down today that you're not saved. I want to make sure everyone knows, hey, we're all saved. We're doing this because we're saved, not doubting. And so making sure that re-establishing that foundation pretty regularly is pretty important.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Jack, what would you say to an elder like Cliff or preacher, minister like myself, or Bible class teachers, or what about parents with young people? Uh, what would you say to these groups about how we can do a better job teaching assurance?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

I want to hear this, yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yeah, grounding ourselves in the the grace and ground all those things, all the specifics, all the doctrinal points are very important. As we've we've said, you do we're not downplaying that at all, but make sure it's always on the basis of we're doing this because God loves us, not to earn his love. And I mean, for parents, I'm glad you included that in there. That's a way that uh it's important to parent. I'm not you know, my kids are still pretty young. I'm not Mr. Give Parenting advice, but that's something we try to do is affirm hey, we always love you, God always loves you, we want you to do the right thing because it's the right thing, because you love God, because you love your siblings, because you know you're honoring your parents, because God wants you to, not because you know you have to behave this way or you'll go to hell. I mean, there are there's discipline, negative consequences are a motivator, but they can't be the only motivator. You want that positive motivation of out of love.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Jack, if you could sit down across from a person who has maybe quietly doubted their salvation for years, and this was your final word to them after the whole book, what would you want them to hear?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

I I hope and I would want to leave them with the greatness of the cross and the resurrection. Like that uh we I think we talked about this last time. That's really what I want somebody to think about and tell themselves in their mind is saying, I'm saying that wasn't good enough, that that that price that was paid, that enormous price, didn't cover me, that I somehow am enough to outdo that. You're not. It was that powerful that that there is no price that that didn't cover, you know, that it was sufficient grace for everything that we need. And and again, that's not a pass to disobey or anything like that. All those things we've talked about, but that that was enough to to get you where you need to be.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Yeah, you talked about um who you're gonna listen to, right? That was something you and that was such a big deal with me, you know, talking recently with my own children about some of these matters. You know, who who are you gonna listen to, right? Who who what voice is gonna be that voice that you believe in the most? And I think you did a good job of communicating that. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

Jack,

Salt And Light Resistance Concerns

SPEAKER_02 37:22

I want to shift gears just for a moment. Jack, I'm totally blown away by the ones who I personally thought to be grounded in the truth, who both signed and endorsed the salt and light resistance document. A dear friend of mine, and the one who married me and my wife Edwina 49 years ago, brother Billy Lambert, and I had a heart-to-heart conversation several weeks ago. Billy brought up the fact that the church split, and we talked about earlier, once over music, and that he feared that this new movement will drive a wedge into the church once again, and possibly split it once again. Do you feel the same way, or how do you feel about that, Jack?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Unfortunately, I feel like there's there's been a quiet split. Uh, and the the lines are not terribly defined because it's been quiet, but the I mean, especially this has been highlighted since 2020, but it was going on before then. Sure. We live in where where people see two different worlds. I mean, just the the what I think about is going on in the world and what somebody else thinks is going on in the world are totally different. And uh, and even Christian brothers, and they're not gonna convince me, but I don't I don't think I'm gonna convince them. And the practical implications that we we have to follow to live that out, the the ways we see the world are gonna go in two different directions, and and I think we're seeing a lot of that. And I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of the people behind that also hold a lot of doctrinal beliefs about the church I wouldn't agree with. Yeah, about the role of women and worship and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

We've seen that.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Yeah, when we were uh we watched the episode where you talked about that, and it was the first time I had ever heard of it. Like I had not gotten that particular um article yet from the Christian Chronicles. So your video was the first time I had heard of it. I immediately, and it's like I do anything you you put out, I'd send it over to Cliff. I'm like, Cliff, have you heard about this?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

No, I hadn't be the bearer of bad news.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Um, but then when we read it, when we read it and went on that website, it's just like we were dumbfounded.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Because it shocked me so much, Jack, because some of the people that was on that list, they were people that I held in high esteem at one time that I I thought that was grounded.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

But for them to believe that, yeah, yeah, that's that's going different directions, like I said. It's sad.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, it hurts your heart. Thank you, Jack.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

Jack

What Jack Is Writing Next

SPEAKER_03 39:51

to Cliff and myself. Um, you you seem like a brother whose mind is always in gear, it's always invested. And so I gotta, I gotta imagine you're working on a book, you're working on something. So, spoilers, can you give us any insight on what you got coming up next?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

I'm trying to distill it. It's it's very difficult. I've been writing a lot about uh leadership and the church and all that, but really trying to take it back to where this all starts in the home. It all starts with men and women and that relationship. And so it might be about that, but I've uh I might also attack it from the first three chapters of Genesis, fix everything that's wrong with our current world. They they help us understand the family, they help us understand sin, they help us understand man's purpose in this world, and and just so many things. And so I think that might be a direction I go with it is just to really highlight all of the fundamental, I mean, anthropology and theology and and just the studies of all those things that that come out in in those first three chapters. I might chase that one, um, and then maybe from there zero in on the the gender roles and leadership and hierarchy and headship and all of that. So if you thought I had some unpopular chapters in this one, uh I'm just getting started.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

I love it. That might be our next review, Cleo.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Okay, we got it. You know, Jack, besides your book, which John and I both think are fantastic, and we've going to use it for our own reference material for sure. Are there other books or possibly materials that you would recommend for Christians who want to keep on studying about assurance and about grace and about obedience and of course Christian confidence?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

That's uh a really good question. This was one, some of my books are very research heavy of reading other people's books, and some of them are more me in the text. And so this was just more me in the text of scripture, but I did read one by a brother, uh, preaches up, I believe in Michigan, uh, Nathan Razor. Uh his book was called Christ Our Assurance or Christ Our Righteousness. That's what it was. Christ Our Righteousness. Um, very good book. Uh, it's available on Amazon as well, and uh covers some of the same ground and and his went a little deeper in into some of the texts themselves. Um, and so that that's one I would certainly recommend on this front.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Okay, thank you, Jack. We both agree that assurance is a very important conversation to have. But what do you think uh is kind of the next big conversation within the Lord's church that we need to be having?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

You know, the things I'm writing on, I always feel like this is the most important thing, you know. And so again, it is kind of that that roles thing of getting you know solid elderships, getting men trained for elderships, honestly. And and part of that starts in the home. That's why that's the some of the qualifications, right? And then getting them to where they're they're solid in the workplace, solid in the community, and all that. And um, that is another project. Uh, in fact, I'm not working towards a book right now because I'm working towards camps that are men's development camps that we're gonna host, uh hopefully. So I'm trying to find, you know, bring in some elders, some older preachers, guys, you know, just round it out to where guys can really come and work on themselves and and kind of have a workshop to to grow and uh prepare them, you know, again, for the home and for the church and all that. So uh I to me that's that's the biggest bang for the buck investment we can make is really investing in in stronger men and women.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Jack, Jonathan and I both have a heartfelt thank you, and we do appreciate you joining us again. You know, this has been a tremendous blessing for for Jonathan and I, and and we know for our audience as well, and we're thankful for your time that you've given to us.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Well, thank you guys. This has been uh a lot of fun to come on with you a couple times, and I'm honored that you guys have uh studied through it and and just picked up a lot of our work at Focus Press there. I I really hope it's been a blessing to the congregation. And and again, thank you guys.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Yeah, Jack, again, uh thank you. You know, we we appreciate all the work you put into this book because again, it's a conversation that, you know, we Cliff and I have talked about even before we ever heard of this book, uh and and studies that we've done personally and struggles that we've even personally. Talked about in our own lives. Um, but you know, just thank you for helping us have a conversation that a lot of Christians really needed to have.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Well, thank you. That that I fully agree that we need to be talking about this as much as possible. And so uh, you know, I'm I'm glad I've been able to contribute to that in some small way. I I hope it continues and there's more and more of this kind of discussion.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

I do too.

Free Book Link And Closing

SPEAKER_02 44:23

And for everyone who has followed along with us through this entire review, folks, thank you so much. Whether you've or watched every single episode or possibly even join us somewhere along the way, we're so grateful you've been part of this conversation that we've had.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

Yeah, as we close up here with Jack Will today, just want to remind everybody out there if you like what you have been part of in this conversation here today, please remember to like, share, and subscribe. Again, this really, folks, we cannot tell you enough uh how much that goes to help other people find this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

And folks, if you have any questions, any comments, or any suggestions for where we should go next on scripture matters, please send those to us through our email addresses and also social media that you see on your screen in front of you.

SPEAKER_03 45:15

Yeah, and Jack, if you got any recommendations of where we should go next, feel free to send us a message as well. Uh before we go, Jack, um, let's get you to remind everybody out there where can they find uh more about Jack Wilkie and what you're doing and your work, uh etc.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah, my personal site is jackwilkie.co, w I l k I, jackwilkie.co, and uh focus press as well. I do think deeper podcast over there. I forgot to mention this up top. The book we've been talking about is available for free right now. Um, not the paper copy, I can't give that away for free, but digital download. Uh, you go to my website, just search free book, or it's probably there on the homepage still. Um, yeah. So if somebody's interested and you want to just read it for free, uh, the whole PDF, you can download it and grab it there. So that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

I I knew you had did like a survey or something asking which book you should put out. And and I voted for that. So I don't know if that had anything to do with it. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

You it was it was a winning vote. So there you go. You helped it happen. So uh yeah, and Focus Press, Brad uh was generous. Uh he said, yeah, go ahead and get it out there. And uh I just want this information in people's hands. So uh go to my site and you anybody can grab it.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

That's wonderful news. Well, folks, new episodes of Scripture Matters, they drop every Friday afternoon at 3:30 on YouTube, on Facebook, on BuzzRail, and all of the major podcast platforms.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

That's right, folks. Until next time, this is Jonathan Sanford on behalf of my stuff. Jonathan and our great guest here today, Jack Wilkie. Thank you so much, Jack. Reminding everybody out there, stay focused. Folks, stay grounded. And as always, good folks, remember Scripture Matters. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Scripture Matters Podcast. We'll be back with a new conversation every Friday at 3 30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms. Until then, may the word guide you and your week. And as always, remember Scripture Matters.