Scripture Matters Podcast - S2E3 - Forgiveness Matters

Forgiveness is one of the hardest commands God has ever given.

It is easy to talk about forgiveness in theory. It becomes much more difficult when the hurt has a name, a face, and a memory attached to it.

In this episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast, Jonathan Sanford and Cliff Thompson explore what the Bible really teaches about forgiveness. Is forgiveness pretending the hurt never happened? Does forgiving someone mean trust is immediately restored? What do we do when someone never apologizes? And why does God command His people to forgive even when the wound still feels fresh?

Together, we examine Scripture's answer to one of life's most personal struggles and discover that true forgiveness is not found by looking within ourselves—but by looking to the cross of Jesus Christ.

In this episode:

• Why forgiveness is so difficult when the hurt is personal
• What forgiveness is—and what it is not
• How bitterness quietly changes the heart
• Why forgiven people must learn to forgive
• What Ephesians 4:32 and Matthew 18 teach about God's mercy
• How the cross becomes the Christian's greatest lesson in forgiveness
• Finding healing without minimizing the pain

Whether you are struggling to forgive someone, seeking reconciliation, or simply wanting to understand God's heart more deeply, we pray this conversation encourages you to trust His wisdom and extend the same grace that has been extended to each of us.

"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
— Ephesians 4:32

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Coming Next

S2E4 — Unity Matters

After discussing forgiveness, we'll examine why Christian unity is so precious, how Satan works to divide God's people, and what Scripture teaches about preserving the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Transcript

The Envelope That Changes Everything

SPEAKER_03 0:10

In front of you is a stack of mail. Nothing unusual. A bill or two. A few advertisements. Maybe something you meant to throw away a few days ago, but you never did.

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You start sorting through it without thinking much about it. You know, you keep this and you toss that and you open this one later. It's just one of those ordinary moments you barely even notice.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Until you see a name in a corner of one of the envelopes. And suddenly it's not just Mel anymore.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Before you ever open it, something in you changes. Your stomach, it tightens, your jaw it sets. Your mind, it goes somewhere you did not ask it to go. Why? All because of one name.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

So you stand there for just a few moments holding on to that envelope. Because you already know who it's from. And you know there's history with that name. Not the kind that people bring up casually, the kind that everybody quietly knows is there.

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Finally, you open it. Inside, an invitation, a celebration, a date, a place, a table where people will gather, smile, laugh, and pretend everything is normal.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

But for you, nothing about this feels normal. Because sometimes a simple invitation does far more than invite you to a room. Sometimes it invites you back to a memory.

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Back to what was said. Back to what was done. Back to a moment when something broke and never quite felt the same again.

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And now you know you have a choice to make. Not just whether you'll go, not just whether you'll answer the invitation, but what are you going to do with everything that rises up in your heart when you see that name?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

And that, my friends, is where forgiveness becomes real. Not when it hurts is on the distance from you, not when the wound is nameless, but when the person, the memory, the pain, and the choices are sitting right in front of you.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Maybe today you know exactly what that feels like. Maybe it wasn't an envelope. Maybe it was a phone call. Maybe it was a family gathering. Maybe it was someone in a church aisle. Maybe it was a message on your computer screen, a name mentioned in a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

But in that moment, the question is the same.

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What am I going to do with what they did?

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Today, we're going to be talking about something that is very difficult, something that is very personal, and something that is very deeply needed.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yes, today we're talking about forgiveness.

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Today's conversation is called Forgiveness

Why Forgiveness Feels So Hard

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Matters. Right here on the Scripture Matters Podcast. You've tuned in to the Scripture Matters Podcast, produced and published in cooperation with the Waters Road Church of Christ. Looking for a church home in the Houston area that lovingly stands upon God's Word? Waters Road is the place where you belong. If you need more information about the Waters Road Church of Christ, check out their website at www.wrcomc.org. We'd like to thank each of you who helped make this podcast possible, especially the prayerful support of our wives and families. And now, good folks, let's get back to another episode of the Scripture Matters Podcast. Well, good afternoon, good folks, and welcome back once again to the Scripture Matters Podcast. My name is Jonathan Sanford, and I am blessed to serve as the pulpit minister for the good folks of the Waters Road Church of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

And I'm Cliff Thompson, one of the shepherds and teachers, also serving alongside the Waters Road Brethren. And hey, Jonathan, we cannot forget our studio director extraordinaire, Billy Sanford. We are so grateful for his work behind the scenes each and every week.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

Yes, sir. You are exactly right. And listen, we also appreciate each and every one of you out there who continue to watch and listen and share and promote our efforts here with the Scripture Matters Podcast. I mean, Cliff, um, the fact that you and I get to have these conversations each and every Friday at 3:30 in the afternoon is truly a privilege.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

It certainly is, Jonathan. And I'm just going to put this out there before we go any further, brother. Last week's conversation on marriage matters was one that we really needed to have with our audience.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

Oh, I agree, uh, brother. And think about it this way, folks. Christian marriage is such an important subject because it touches far more than just a husband and a wife uh sharing a home. No, it reaches all the way into the families that we love, sacrifice, the patience, faithfulness, and service.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

And we cannot overstate this, folks. It reaches down into the church as well. Strong Christian marriages can bless a congregation in ways people may not even see immediately.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

No, I think that's true. And I've always said, Cliff, you show me a strong, healthy congregation, and I'll show you a congregation with an abundance of healthy marriages. Churches, you know, I found can very easily take on the identity of the marriages within it, whether, you know, good or bad.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Yeah, and Jonathan, I think you're right there. The truth is, if a church is made up of folks who are not committed to their God-given oneness with their husband or their wife, how can we expect them to be committed to the oneness we have in Jesus Christ?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

No, that's a powerful statement, Cliff. And I just want to get this out there to everybody. Folks, we are so encouraged to hear from people like we did after last week's episode and saw really the importance of bringing back marriage under the umbrella of scriptural wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

That is really one of the things I appreciate about our new season two, Jonathan. We're not just picking subjects to fill time, we're taking and talking about things that people actually live with.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Yeah, we're talking about subjects that reach down within our homes, our struggles, our worship to God, our relationships, our faith, and our very walk with God.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

And that's also why today's subject fits so naturally, Jonathan, especially after the conversation we had about marriage.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Yeah, it really does, because you cannot talk about marriage and family, church life, friendship, or any meaningful relationship, Cliff, for very long at all, without eventually needing to talk about forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

And not just forgiveness in a general sense either, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

No, we're talking about real, uh, 100% authentic forgiveness, the kind that has to deal with real words, real wounds, real disappointments, and real memories.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

And that is where this gets awful difficult, brother. Everybody likes the idea of forgiveness until it comes close to something they are still carrying.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

And that's why you and I, as we looked at this season and saw that we were going to deal with this very uh sincere and sensitive topic, we knew we had to be careful uh today in just how we approach this subject.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

Oh, that's so right, Jonathan. Because the last thing we want to do is to make forgiveness sound shallow.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

The last thing that we want to do to anyone out there who takes part in the day's conversation is to rush purging people. And we don't want to pretend like every situation out there is simple.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

But we also do not want to ignore what the scripture says about forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

There's that word balance, right? We talk about it so much. We want to be honest about the hurt, but hey, we also want to be honest about the heart that God has called all of us to have.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

So, Jonathan, given what we've just said, brother, I think there's a question staring us right in the face.

SPEAKER_03 9:38

All right, Cliff, you got to tell me what's this question.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Well, what do we do when the hurt is not just theoretical anymore?

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Uh, Cliff, I think that's right where we should begin. Um, I'll take your question. Okay, and I'm gonna raise you another question. Okay. Why is forgiveness sometimes so hard, even for people who know how much they have been forgiven?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

I think we got our work cut out for us today, friend. So here we go.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Cliff, those two questions that have just been brought up reveal why today's conversation is a must-have. Let's slow down together, good folks, and let's think about it this way. Forgiveness is not hard because Christians don't know the word. We we know the word, we've heard the passages our entire lies. We know truly that forgiveness matters. But let me tell you something, friends. When the hurt becomes truly personal, forgiveness becomes much more difficult than simply knowing the right answer.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

And I think we need to admit the truth of that right now before we move on too quickly. And we make light of this reality. Because if someone is listening right now and they're carrying something heavy, the very last thing that they need for Cliff Thompson or Jonathan Sanford to say is, hey, folks, just get over it.

Naming The Hurt Without Minimizing It

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That's not biblical counsel, folks, and it is definitely not Christian and Christ-like compassion.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

No, sir, it's definitely not. You know, forgiveness does not require us to pretend that our hurt was not real. The fact is, people have been genuinely wounded. Someone lied, someone betrayed our trust, someone spoke words that damaged our relationships, someone walked away, someone mistreated our spouse, mistreated our children, our parents, our friends, or a brother or sister in Christ.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

And Jonathan, when that happens, the wound is not imaginary.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

No, not at all. And I think that matters because sometimes people hear the word forgiveness and they immediately feel like they're being asked by someone else, whether it be a preacher or a teacher or brother or sister in Christ, they think that they're being asked to just minimize what happened to them.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Like forgiveness means, oh, it wasn't a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Or uh, what about this one? You shouldn't be bothered by that. Or, hey, a real Christian would have moved on by now. Those are things that many of us out there have heard. But I'm telling you, we've got to be careful. And we cannot help people move toward forgiveness by acting as if their pain is not really painful.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

That is important because scripture never treats sin like it is small.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

God does not look at betrayal, cruelty, dishonesty, abuse, pride, or even selfishness as and pretend it's harmless, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

That's right. And when you think about the cross, the cross itself tells us how serious our sins truly are. If sin were small, if sin were minute, Jesus would not have needed to die the death that he died.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

So when we talk about forgiveness, we are not talking about pretending sin does not matter.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

No, we're talking about what God teaches his people to do with the debt, the pain, and the wound.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

And that is where this becomes personal, folks, because sometimes the person who hurts you may never fully understand what they did. Sometimes they might not apologize the way that they feel that you should. Sometimes they may move on like nothing ever happened while you're still trying to sort through the damage.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

And that can make in that moment the forgiveness feel very unfair. Because the heart is going to start asking some questions like, why am I the one who is having to deal with this? They caused me this pain, and now I'm the one having to wrestle with this forgiveness.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

You know, I really think a lot of people understand that feeling, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Oh, I think they do because here, folks, is where we've got to be honest today. If we're not careful, the hurt that has been done to us can begin doing something very dangerous within us. The original wound may not have been our fault whatsoever, but bitterness can still become our problem. Resentment, or it can still begin to shape us if we're not careful. And anger, here's the bad thing: it can start making decisions for us.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And before long, the person who hurt us is still influencing our heart, even if they are nowhere even around.

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Now, that is the part that should get our attention today. Unforgiveness does not simply remember the hurt, it rehearses it. It keeps the wound fresh within your mind, it keeps that conversation alive in our minds long after the initial conversation has ended.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

And that is why forgiveness matters. Not because the hurt was fake or because the wound was small, but because God cares about what unresolved hurt can do inside of our own hearts.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Exactly. No, we're talking about these conversations, these moments that we relive and rehearse in our hearts. Forgiveness, folks, it's not God saying, hey, that didn't hurt you. God is not saying that. It is God saying, however, do not let that hurt become

Unforgiveness And The Trap Of Rehearsal

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your master.

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And that brings us to the next part of the conversation. The Bible does not call us to forgive because people always deserve it, or because the wound was not serious.

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No, the Bible calls us to forgive because we ourselves have been forgiven. And that's where we need to go next.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Folks, those of you out there that are watching, do something for me, please. Pause with me for just a moment.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I want you to look into my eyes with me. What I'm about to tell you about Jonathan Sanford and Cliff Thompson is the honesty goodness of the truth. If it wasn't for forgiveness of God, if it wasn't for the forgiveness of God, neither Jonat nor myself would know true forgiveness.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Cliff, true forgiveness has but only one teacher. Think about it this way, folks. If God had not forgiven me, I'd have zero clue how to forgive someone else. Everything that I know about forgiveness, everything that I have learned in my life about forgiveness, I learned by kneeling at the foot of the cross of Christ. That's why the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians chapter 4, verse 32, he says this be kind to one another, be tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yes, Jonathan. That last phrase, it changes everything. As God in Christ forgave you. It changes the way I look at someone who hurt me. Because if I only look at what they did to me, I may never want to forgive. But if I look at what God has forgiven in me, now I have to bring my hurt under the shadow of the cross.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

The cross does not make your wound unreal, but it does keep that very wound from becoming the only thing that you see. At the cross, we can remember that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us, myself included, I have needed mercy. I have needed God's patience so many times throughout my life, and I have needed forgiveness that I could never earn.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

And not because the other person deserves mercy more than we did, but because we know what it is to receive mercy we did not deserve.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Yeah, and you know, Jesus presses against that very truth in Matthew chapter 18. Peter, one of the most brazen, uh spoken people in the gospel, right? He does a lot of things that you and I tend to do from time to time, open our mouth, right? In Matthew chapter 18, Peter asked Jesus

Forgiven People Learn To Forgive

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how often he should forgive his brother. And Peter probably thought he was being awful generous when he said up to seven times.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yeah, but Jesus takes them much further than that, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

He does. And then Jesus lovingly tells the parable of a servant who owed his master a debt he could never repay. The servant begged for patience, begged for forgiveness, and the master had compassion and forgave him.

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But then that same servant, he went out and found someone who hoed him far, far less, Jonathan.

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And instead of him showing mercy, he demanded full payment. He had received great forgiveness, good folks, but in that very moment, shortly after receiving mercy, he refused to extend forgiveness to someone else.

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And that is the part of the parable that ought to make us, folks, very, very uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

It really should, and it does for me when I think about it. Because Jesus is showing us just how ugly it is to receive mercy and then become merciless. Now, we need to say this carefully, just for everybody out there. Forgiveness does not mean that what happened to you was okay. Forgiveness does not mean that your trust with that individual or group of individuals is to be immediately restored. Forgiveness doesn't even remove every single consequence. And forgiveness does not mean you put yourself right back into a situation where someone could continue to harm you.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That is important. Sometimes people confuse forgiveness with pretending everything can immediately go back to the way it was.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

And the reality is, Cliff, many times that's just not the case. In fact, I think this is a good time for us here in today's conversation to make a very important distinction. Forgiveness and reconciliation are connected. Yes, they are, but they are not exactly the same thing. Forgiveness is something I offer from my heart, learned from the very heart of God. Reconciliation is the rebuilding of a relationship. And the reality is, Cliff, that usually takes repentance, honesty, humility, and let's not forget time.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Time, yes. That is a needed distinction too, Jonathan, because trust can be damaged quickly, but it is usually rebuilt very, very slowly.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yeah, exactly. If someone lies, you can extend forgiveness and you should, but trust still has to be rebuilt between you and that individual. If someone betrays your confidence, forgiveness may be offered, yes, and it should, but wisdom may still require a bit of caution. If someone has caused harm to you, forgiveness does not mean every consequence just vanishes.

The Parable That Confronts Us

SPEAKER_02 23:44

So forgiveness does not mean we become foolish either.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

No, it does not. Forgiveness is not an absence of wisdom. Think about it this way, folks. A Christian can forgive and still have boundaries. A Christian can release bitterness and yet still say this relationship is going to take some time to get back to where it once was.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

And I think that helps because some people struggle with forgiveness, Jonathan, because they think it means they have to pretend.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

No, you're right. And I used to feel that way. I used to think that forgiveness meant I just got to go right back into relationship as if nothing ever happened between me and that individual. God is not asking you to lie. He's not asking you to lie about what happened between you and that person. He is asking us to trust him with what happened. He is asking us to release vengeance, to release bitterness, and release. Here's the big one, Cliff, to release the need that we feel in our heart to sit in God's seat. And that brings us right back to the very heart of today's conversation. Forgiveness means I release the debt to God. I stop trying to sit in God's seat and I stop letting bitterness become the judge and ruler of my heart.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

But brothers and sisters, please, please hear Jonathan and I. It is extremely necessary.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

It is.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, and that's a very clear distinction there, Jonathan, as well.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

And that might be today, just thinking about our audience and the different situations that people might find themselves in right here, right now, that may be where someone needs to begin. And we're not, again, we're telling you, we're not trying to get

Forgiveness Versus Reconciliation

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you to pretend that your hurts aren't real or that everything just automatically is fixed. But maybe there's a prayer today that you need to pray to God. Maybe you say, Lord, I know what you have forgiven in me. I need you desperately to teach me how to forgive the way you forgive.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, because Jonathan, forgiving people, that that must that must be learned.

SPEAKER_03 27:03

Yes, it has to be learned. And as we bring today's conversation to a close, I think the best place to bring it back to is the foot of the cross.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Yes, Jonathan, because the truth is for us as Christians, that is where real forgiveness begins.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

And Cliff, that's the the location where all wounded hearts have to learn how to heal.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Jonathan, I think that is where this conversation needs to land. You know, forgiveness is not pretending the envelope never came. It's not pretending the name did not affect you. And it's not pretending the memory does not still hurt.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

No, here's what it is: it's bringing all of those things that you just mentioned, Cliff, bringing them all to the foot of the cross of Christ. Because the cross is where God tells us the truth about sin. Sin is not small. We've established that here today. Sin is not harmless, sin is not something God simply overlooks. No, Jesus died because our sins are serious.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

But the cross is also where God shows the depth of his mercy, Jonathan.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

That's right. And if I am going to understand uh forgiveness as a Christian, then I must understand I cannot find that understanding apart from Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Because Jesus was not forgiven people who had treated him very well, were they, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_03 28:44

No. Let's think about it. He was betrayed, he was spat upon, he was mocked, he was beaten, he was rejected. Go read Isaiah 53 if you want to be reminded of what he was going uh to go through. He was nailed to a cross, and from that very cross, good folks, he said these words Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

And that is not shallow forgiveness, either.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

No, not at all, Cliff. That is holy mercy in the middle of real suffering.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

And maybe that is where someone listening, they need to begin. Not by pretending they are not hurt, not by acting like everything is fixed, but by being honest between you and God.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

That's right. We talked about this prayer just a few moments ago. You need to find it within you. And you and I were talking offline about praying these types of prayers and and naming a person to God out loud who has hurt you and how hard it is to do that, right? But you need to be able to pray, Lord, this hurt that I feel is true. I am angry, I am frustrated. I don't know, God, how to let go of this. But I know, God, that you have forgiven me. Now, again, God help me to forgive them.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

You know, Jonathan, you can take a prayer like that, and God can work with it, you know it.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Yeah, I think he can because forgiveness, again, is not about giving the person who hurt you control over your life. That's not what we're saying today. It's about refusing to let bitterness control you.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, it's it's taking the wound out of your

A Prayer At The Foot Of The Cross

SPEAKER_02 30:40

own hands and putting it into the hands of someone who can do something with it, and that's God.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yeah, and maybe that brings us both and the folks here today back to that uh invitation that we talked about at the beginning of today's conversation. That envelope may be in your hands right now, good folks. You may be staring at that name in front of you, and that memory is very real. That hurt feels very fresh, and the question has not changed. What am I gonna do with what they did to me?

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, am I going to rehearse it? Am I going to feed it? Am I going to let it shake me? Or, and here it is, folks, right here. Am I going to bring it to Jesus?

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Because, really and truly, this is the heart of today's conversation. Forgiven people must learn how to forgive. And wounded hearts can learn how to heal by kneeling at the foot of the cross.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

And Jonathan, as we look ahead in season two, this conversation really does fit into the bigger picture of where we're going with this.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yeah, it really does. Next week, Lord Willing, we're going to be talking about a subject we've entitled Unity Matters. Again, unity matters, and that fits so naturally after forgiveness because unity is very hard to protect. It's very hard to maintain when bitterness is allowed to take root and live in our hearts.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

And Jonathan, after unity matters, we'll be talking about truth matters because real unity is not built by ignoring truth. It's built when people are committed to walking in the truth together.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

And that is, you know, that's really what we're trying to do throughout this whole season, everybody. These subjects are not just separate subjects disconnected from one another. They keep building every week. Think about it with us for just a moment. Freedom, marriage, uh, forgiveness, unity, truth, the church, um, prayer, worship, peace, providence, faithfulness, hope, and finally, heaven.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

And that final conversation is where all of this is headed to.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

That's where I hope we're all headed. Amen on that. Well, heaven matters when you think about it, because that is the ultimate hope of every Christian. Every subject that we are talking about throughout this season truly matters because we're not just trying to get through life. We're trying to walk faithfully with God toward eternity.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

So, folks, we hope you'll continue with us throughout the rest of season two.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

That's right, we really do. And you can watch Scripture Matters each and every week on YouTube

What Comes Next This Season

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and Facebook, or you can listen on Buzzprout, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all major podcast platforms.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

And folks, remember like, share, follow, subscribe, and leave us a comment. Folks, we would really, really love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

That's exactly right. Well, until next time, my name is Jonathan Sanford.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

And my name is Cliff Thompson.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

And we're reminding you today, as always, stay focused. Folks, stay grounded. And remember, as always, good folks, Scripture Matters. Goodbye, everybody. Thanks for spending part of your day with us on the Scripture Matters Podcast. We'll be back with a new conversation every Friday at 3 30 p.m. on YouTube, Facebook, and all major podcast platforms. Until then, may the word guide you and your week and only remember Scripture Matter.