Feeling Spiritually Stuck in Church? Here's What's Really Going On

Before we can fix anything, we have to ask a better question: what is the Church actually supposed to be?

In this conversation, we explore why so many believers today feel spiritually stuck, disconnected, or disillusioned with church—and why that tension may be pointing to something deeper than frustration.

We unpack why common definitions of church often fall short, how that impacts spiritual growth and community, and where we can begin again if we want to see real renewal, discipleship, and Kingdom-centered community restored.

If you’ve ever felt like something is off but couldn’t quite name it, this episode gives language to that experience—and points toward a more faithful way forward.

The 2 or More Podcast is a conversation for lost balls and sleeping giants—followers of Jesus who are hungry for authenticity and to grow in their gifts and calling. Mike Bishop and Joel Henson explore what it looks like to plant sustainable microchurches, build spiritual family, and live out the kingdom of God in your whole life.

Instagram: 2ormore_podcast

Who is Everyday Mission? We are a people seeking transformation in our everyday lives and in the church. We are a people drawn into the harvest field by love. We are using our unique gifts, talents, and resources to influence the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to help equip Everyday Missionaries.

Website: https://www.everydaymission.com/
Instagram & TikTok: @EverydayMissionFlorida

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Somehow I ended up with a coffee cup that has two dogs on it and Santa Claus from 2018. So we'll just start with that. It was a great year. Yeah. It was a great year.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

2018 was a nice year. Oh man. Different world. Um there seems to be a lot of like guilt and insecurity in the church around people who feel stuck. Maybe like there is something a little bit broken in this situation of the Western church, and we don't really know how to do any better. Um and and it can often come off critical. And yeah, and I think a lot of people don't want to be critical. Like they love their churches, they love the church, but something needs to change. And you mentioned in the last episode, you said this isn't necessarily a you problem, this is a us problem, this collective solution that needs to be had. Say more about that.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Yeah, I I think that's a great uh great question and a great thing to elaborate on because it does a lot of times come off when you have a question specifically about what does it mean to be the church? Um why are certain things broken? Uh why are there things like scandals and issues with money? And it goes all down the list. The the immediate knee-jerk response a lot of times is, well, you're just being critical. Well, you're just raising issues that everybody knows, but were, you know, that's not really yours to work out kind of concerns. And I think people are really kind of tired of hearing that, I think. Um, at least that's been my impression. And I know for myself, there's been times where I've been accused of being overly critical and things. My my response is always like, well, listen, it does come back to the place where I really love the whole church. And I really do want to see it be everything that it's supposed to be and nothing that it's not, right? Yeah. And so what I mean by it becoming an us problem is it's something we need to own together. And we need to move into a place of where whether you're an existing church leader and you're asking these kinds of questions and you're waking up every day and you're frustrated that you don't have a path forward, or you're someone who has maybe left a church for a variety of reasons, and now you're struggling with like what do I do next? So that that lost ball and sleeping giant kind of identity, what where do I go from here? Like, how do I actually respond to the place where I feel like I'm stuck and I know that there's things wrong, but I don't know what to do about it. And I think it's an us response because not one person is going to be the solution to all of those issues, right? And the whole thing of of being overly critical, if we can drop that away and say, listen, yeah, sometimes people just do like hearing themselves complain about church. I've been in I've been around people that that literally that's they it's a sport. I've been that athlete. Yeah, and I and I've had uh communities of people in my home before where that becomes the tendency. And I've come to the place now where it's not again, there there's a time and a place for all kinds of questions. And if someone's starting out of a place of pain, we don't slap them up against the head and say, you know, you're not allowed to ask that question. That's being too critical.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

But the key is we don't want to just live there forever, right? Right. And so the response needs to be together, let's get to the place where everyone is feeling like they have an actionable way forward that moves to a place where now they're starting to see real solutions to real problems.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Right. It's a rule in my household that you can't bring a criticism unless you also bring a recommendation for a solution, you know? And I think that that's where complaining moves to actual constructive criticism because Jesus was very critical of so much of the religious organizations of the day. Because the the thing was is like people wanted Jesus to be a political critic. They wanted him to tear down and like point a finger at the Romans, but Jesus is like, hey, like, here's the flock. I'm gonna point out like the wolves among the sheep. Like that, they're they're their own issue. Like, I'm gonna address the the situation here. And so I think it's actually imperative that we as believers lovingly and also very directly take on that mantle of Jesus and and say, like, hey, I see, I see brokenness and dysfunction here. Let's find some solutions about why are there so many pastoral burnout, like moral failures? Why is there so much hidden brokenness in the church? Why people aren't able to actually find connection and hopefully the most grounding community that they'll ever have. What's going on here? Right. Like that sound that has the same candor of Jesus to me, especially when it's made in good faith. Yeah. Don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Uh I was thinking when you were saying that, that um Jesus I I think a lot of people miss the fact that actually the Pharisees were the people in the Jewish community that he had the most in common with.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

So it's it's this it's this narrative in the church that and and it's it kind of just has gone on ever since I mean my entire Christian life is that the you know, Jesus good, Pharisees bad. Right? And like they were all just law. Jesus was grace, grace, grace, right? But actually both spiritually, their view of the Messiah, the end times, uh scripture, all of that, Jesus had the most in common with the Pharisees. But he also had the most critical, like hardcore statements to them about missing the point. Missing the point. So it wasn't all like law versus grace. It was about missing the point.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah, your hearts have hardened.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yeah, like you say that you're trying to ease people's burdens. You you say all of these wonderful things about this life with God, but what you're actually doing to people is putting undue burdens on them. What you're actually doing is creating an environment where they're not able to really pick up their burdens with God and move forward. They're actually stuck. That is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Because what something that I learned recently is that the most common motivation uh for Jesus mentioned in scripture written out was that he was moved with great compassion. So, like at seeing their brokenness, Jesus was moved with great compassion. And then every miracle flowed almost seamlessly from that statement all through all throughout scripture. And so Jesus seems to be, to your point, criticizing the lack of that heart of like you are enable, you have completely arrested your heart from the ability to be moved with compassion at the people before you. So it's not even about keeping the 609 laws of the you know Mosaic covenant, right? It's actually about the fact that you're implying them in a way that has completely missed the heart of God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah. And he certainly had some really harsh things to say about the temple system and the scribes and and and you know, the the religious leaders and all of those things, but that was he was placing judgment on a system that had aligned itself with political power, right? That was ultimately the thing that the nation was going to fail if they put their hope in that. But on an individual level, on a on a local level, because he was a Galilean, right? He was a good old boy from the country.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

From the country, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

The sticks. And and the Pharisees, that was their territory. It's it's kind of known that that was the area where they had all of their uh the the most influential rabbis uh and and training ground for young disciples was in was in Galilee. And so Jesus was not attacking them for their system, Jesus was attacking them, or not attacking them, he was criticizing them and correcting them on their heart because he was seeing that the people needed shepherds, right? They needed someone to come along and say, How can I actually live as a true Jew, as a true light chosen member of God's light to the nation, salt of the air, all that all those that all the things in the in the Sermon on the Mount, he was teaching his disciples, the Pharisees say this, but you see, I say this.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Yeah, the whole Sermon on the Mount is a complete direct indictment of the teaching of the Pharisees. Right. And I mean, as the first time in Matthew, and he directly made them really, really furious.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah. So I I I think when when we come at this and we start talking about what where we are as the church right now is an us problem. Yeah. Okay. In in my mind, it's twofold. One, just like Jesus, there are cultural forces at play in society and the way our our you know system of life, how we make money, the economy, all of these things are a system of the world, right? That's that's empire. We're gonna get into what that means at a certain point. But on the other hand, we've got this, what's supposed to be a representative of God's kingdom on earth, the the salt and the life, everything that Jesus set up in the gospels for his family to be, to be the new Israel, right? And I think when we come together as the church, and especially church leaders, and we're willing to say, just like Jesus, to ourselves, you're missing the point. You're missing the point. That's not being critical for criticism's sake. That's actually what it means to repent. That's repentance. And and what we're talking about here is a form of repentance. It's naming the fact that there's been sin. It's naming the fact that there's been not not necessarily the the scandals and the you know those kinds of yeah, yeah, okay, it's obvious that that's sin. But when a lost ball or a sleeping giant has no home, and they basically have to go into hiding in the wilderness, and there's no community for them, and there's no ability for them to grow beyond where they are as a disciple, except for what they listen to on a podcast or TikTok. That is a sin. We need to repent of that. We need to figure out how to move forward from that place in the way that Jesus taught us to move forward together and come up with a solution.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah. One of my favorite words to just give context for anyone listening, the word repent just means to turn. Uh it just means to change, it just means to change your mind and it means to change your behavior. And so it doesn't have this whole like grandiose vision of you know, uh punishing yourself, like repent from that. Like it's not this, but like a call to repentance is like, hey, just turn around. Like it's just the Lord calling us to like turn back to him. That is what a repent for a repentant heart is. And so for us as church leaders to be repentant, it just means to look back at Jesus, like catch the the eye contact with the loving father and just recognize like our like we've missed the point somewhere along the way. Yeah. At least, at least in part. And I think that's something that needs to be said is like this isn't again, this is the deconstruction, meticulous replacing of efforts and allocation of our time and the way that we connect with people. It's not that um the entire buildings need to be torn down. It's the it's the fact that, like, hey, we've got a lot of people doing a lot of ministry that could probably be shuffled around in a way to bless way more people, right? Like, yeah, I just feel like it it could be way simpler than it is.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

And a lot of people that are not being utilized at all that could be thrown into the mix.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

To bring about renewal. Yeah. Tell me about renewal. Like you use that word a lot.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Yeah, that so renewal, I say, goes hand in hand with repentance. It's it's the outcome of repentance. So on an individual basis, when you repent, okay, you turn, yeah, you're gonna go the opposite direction, you become a different person. Because by definition, you have said, I was going a certain way, now I'm going another way, and that other way, God's way, is you've become a new person. So when Jesus says, you know, you you you follow me, you you it's like being born again. Yeah. Well no.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

That's so cool. I've never thought of it that way because essentially repenting is recognizing I've been walking down the path of death, right? Like sin that leads ultimately to death. I've been walking that path. And to turn around and to backtrack that path is to re it be renewed. Like it is death in reverse. It is it is destruction in reverse, it is renewing by walking back and and turning towards the Lord and having him like probably carry you back, realistically, to stick with the metaphor. That's that's a cool way to think about it. And so renewal in the church on on a broad scale by taking personal responsibility. What's like your what's your call to action there? Like what do you what's your thought here? Because like you you've done a lot of ministry that's kind of been directly seeking this renewal. What what have you seen? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

So uh so I yeah, I come from the charismatic tradition, and renewal had kind of a different definition in that tradition. It was um getting on fire for the Lord again. So you'd get in a room and the Holy Spirit would show up revival, and you'd fall. Well, not not necessarily revival. Revival was a different flavor, but renewal was like, okay, we're in the room. Um, you know, maybe this isn't gonna last for you know five years or something like that, but God shows up and people have an experience and you fall on the ground, and you know, like you get filled with the spirit again. And um that's not all we're talking about. I mean, that that there's definitely a place for that. Don't get me wrong. Like when I first entered the the vineyard movement, there was what was called the Toronto Blessing happening in Toronto at a at a vineyard up there, and um it was a a very interesting, um, dynamic move of God, very controversial in some ways. But at least for me and the people that I saw, the outcome was so many people got called into ministry. And my wife and I got called into ministry as an as an outflow of what happened there. So say all you want about the different manifestations and things that were going on if you were familiar with what happened during that time. Doesn't matter, but the outcome, the fruit, was people got called to follow God, not just closer, but to go out, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And so I think renewal has to answer that the true renewal has to answer that question. Um, God is a missional god, he's a missionary God, he's always been after the lost from day one. Eden existed to be spread throughout the world. Eden was not a static section of creation that was just gonna be like off by itself and the rest of the world go to hell.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

It was the opposite. Eden was meant to spread. Eden was meant to that that was the original commission to Adam and Eve. Go into the world, be fruitful, and multiply, right? All of those things. Yeah, the first commission. So in my mind, the definition of corporate renewal. Um, in in 2019, I read this little book by Mark Sayers, he's an Australian pastor, and he wrote this book called Reappearing Church. And it it was hitting for me all of the same themes that I was talking about in the last episode about that led to that prayer, wake the sleeping giants. So it was that that deep, deep hunger to see the church and individual people that maybe have been gotten left out of the equation to wake up, take on the mantle that God has for them, and to move forward into renewal. And he talks about a pattern that historically has always taken place when God renews the church. And it was really interesting because he wrote this book obviously before 2020, before the pandemic. And there's this quote in the book where he says he's talking about what might spark people to wake up to what God is doing and actually get into this process of renewal. And just listen to this quote. He says, if we endured a global flu pandemic, like the one in the early part of the 20th century that killed millions of people across the world, how we view and process our personal potentials and possibilities would be deeply shaken. And then, you know, I read that, and then six months later, it happened. And the result, of course, was a universal gut check. Not just within church, but all of society. Yeah, right. Everybody. Don't want to get into that. But I think from the from the church's perspective, the question was really, are we going to accept the fact that that this is well, are we going to think this number one is an attack on us? So there were a lot of churches at the time, and it was actually pretty frustrating to me to watch a lot of churches bow up against things like, hey, maybe we need to just chill for a little bit and figure out what's going on, and like, you know, maybe meet together on Zoom for a couple weeks. Like, even our microchurch did that for a while. But there were churches that literally took that as a personal attack on their system, right? Very clearly. And not to name any names, but I really feel like there was a huge missed opportunity there. Because the the opportunity was instead of protest, it could have been a trigger to just take a step back for a second and just ask the Lord, what is going on? Like, really, what is going on? Okay, yeah, maybe there's some political motivations here that are messed up, and maybe the government's overreaching and and all that kind of stuff. But to Mark Sayer's point, we miss the opportunity to process our personal potentials and possibilities because they were deeply shaken. And what what I feel like is so important now is five years later, and as we're living in kind of this new reality, what I think is so important is that if you didn't process those things back then, you better do it now.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

I was gonna ask, is it too late to kind of ride the the the wave of that?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

I don't I don't think so at all. I don't think so at all. I think um, but don't waste any more time. And so Sayers uh mentioned in his book that there's there's a pattern, and that again, this is historic. You can go back, other renewals of the church, other times when God has moved fresh. It always follows this pattern, and it and it starts with what he calls holy discontent. And it's the idea that there's a deep spirit-led, kind of as we've been talking about. This isn't deconstruction for deconstruction's sake, but a spirit-led pattern, a spirit-led frustration with the status quo. Right? And you're just in that place like I was before I came up with that crafted prayer. God, there's give me 10% of what you promised. Yeah. There's gotta be more.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

This isn't what, yeah, this isn't what I was meant for.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

This isn't what I wasn't what I meant for, but also this, Jesus, this isn't what you died for. Yeah. So from there, there's a preparation. And the preparation is in hiddenness, it's a season of pruning, obscurity, and formation. And this is where I think the church just missed an opportunity. And again, to your point, it's we're not, you can come back to this place, but instead of instead of yelling and kicking and screaming, that we can't meet together in large groups anymore, or that like even today, uh, a lot of people after COVID left the church and just watch online because that was the solution. The solution was, well, we'll just push everything to online.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah, I think that was the concern of a lot of the louder voices of like, no, we're gonna keep meeting together, because it was like I I understood that because like I after a while, I was very much like, yeah, like uh we I feel like we have an understanding of what's happening here. Like we should be able to make our own decisions as a church about if we're meeting in someone's home, you know. And so it was this kind of like avoiding or trying to avoid establishing a new, more broken paradigm. And so I think there was some concern there, but I I agree. I think that it too quickly was taken as a personal affront. I like I think that's a perfect diagnosis of the situation. And instead, we didn't use that hiddenness very well because that takes a lot, a lot of foresight and spiritual attunement to recognize that like what I see is happening here is not actually what's happening. Like what I see on the surface is not what's actually taking place.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Bingo, and that's why it's so critical to take a little bit of a step back. And that honestly, that was the the opposite of what most people were feeling. Most people were feeling, no, we we we need to move right now, like things are disrupted, we need to respond in this way. And what Sayre says is the pattern of renewal, no, it it it's it's so critical to get into a place where you're listening. Because when the world is falling apart, when everything there's all this disruption, you're not gonna you're not gonna get the answer from a bunch of movement and activity. You need you need wisdom, you need the Holy Spirit to to give you direction.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah, you need you need the Jesus that's asleep in the boat still while you're anxiously pulling on ropes. Yes. Like, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So what we saw and what we've seen in our own process is like after I came up with that prayer, that crafted prayer, and then I began to pray it, I I began to feel the Holy Spirit just come alongside of me. And there was a there was a new and fresh energy in prayer, particularly, which it all starts with prayer. And so this is where he gets the the third part in the pattern is is what he says is contending in the spirit, and it's crying out for God to move again. So this is what is so key about what we've been talking about with deconstruction and lost ball asleep wherever you're at in this process, getting to the place where it's just about God, will you move again? You know, like I'm stuck. We talked about that. I'm I'm not seeing your church be what it's supposed to be, right? All of these things, but not staying there, getting to that that white hot center with the Lord of just like me in the Jeep driving down the highway with with my dog and just crying out. That's where we need to get. Once you get to that place, then you can begin to discern okay, what are the things that went then we need to begin incorporating like actually to do? Like what's our response? And so Sayers says the next part of the puzzle is new patterns. It's new patterns. It's again moving from repentance to renewal. And and the new patterns there are in our case, in the case of I think corporately, what what is corporate renewal look like? It's identifying what are what what does church look like for us in this season? Um what is rooted in the ancient story, what's rooted in the kingdom, what aligns with how the church has renewed or seen renewal happen in the past. And then what ends up happening from there is around those new patterns, a remnant is formed. And and that word remnant is really powerful because of course it comes from the people of Israel, it comes from the people that returned after the exile, right? There was this remnant, yeah, of God's people that that along with some of the leaders came back. And I I love the story of in in um Ezra and Habakkuk, particularly about them rebuilding the temple, right? You know, and and for it started just with the foundation, right? And of course, um, what was it? Cyrus the was the the leader that you know facilitated that and paid for it and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Released the Jews back into Jerusalem, yeah, after their exile.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

But the story is so interesting because they go back and they spend like 16 years just rebuilding their life, like they're rebuilding their homes, rebuilding their communities, their towns. And Habakkuk comes on the scene and he has this word from the Lord, and the word is so powerful because it's basically what are you guys doing? Like you've been back 16 years and you haven't even given one thought to the temple. You've been rebuilding your homes, you've been making your life again, yeah. But what about my house? Right?

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, because I mean the cultural identity there was as God's chosen people, and specifically Isaiah and Jeremiah are letters to um to Israel of don't forget who you are. It's it's this call of like, hey, you feel like you've lost your cultural identity, you feel like you've lost the status as God's chosen people, you don't have a homeland, you're completely scattered, you're living among foreigners. Don't forget who you are. And that's that kind of final call from Habakkuk and Habakkuk 2, I think is what you're talking about, right? Where he's like, What's happened to the temple? Like, where's the priority here? And then Habakkuk 3, there's this beautiful promise of what God will do through his people again. Like, God's like, I haven't forgotten, don't you forget? Like that that and that's the call to us in like times of strange cultural happenings and global pandemics, is like, don't forget who you are. Yeah, and like come back to that place with me. And I and if I had to write a letter to the to the church in 2020, I I would I would say like of these five steps that like Sayers is broken down for us, it's that like, hey, you you took your holy discontent and you you skipped the preparedness, uh preparation and hiddenness, and you went straight into contending in the spirit for new patterns. You skipped a vital step, which is wait, which is like get with me. Like you're forgetting who you are, you're forget, you're missing the plot, like you're you've lost the plot.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

And so like I see that in Israel, I see it in us, and and that's the invitation. It's like find new patterns, but do it this way. There's a blueprint for how to how to fix this, how to rebuild the temple.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah. Yeah. So I think we we we want to get to kind of the hopeful, okay, what what do we do now kind of thing. And yes, so entering this pattern is something um that I think anybody can do at any time. I do believe right now, you know, you didn't miss the boat because you didn't do this in 2020. I think you could if if you're in that place right now today, um, the call here is don't waste any more time. Like, don't spend any more time um crying over spilled milk or whatever the saying is. Get into this pattern. And so what does that look like? Well, honestly, I don't think it's too complicated. And we overcomplicate things all the time in the church and ministry. Um, and especially if you're someone that is in a place right now where maybe you're kind of pulled away a little bit, um, but I guarantee, I guarantee that if you ask the Lord to show you just one or two other people that you know that feel the same way as you, and you humble yourself and you go to them and you say, you know, I just heard this crazy thing on this podcast. And I know I'm kind of this lost ball or this sleeping giant, and I know you are too. And I I I just feel this burden, like I I just can't sit here in this place of doing nothing anymore. And I need to become part of the remnant, and I need to take up the mantle that God has given me, and I need to move into that place where I'm I'm uh crying out to the Lord to move again. I guarantee if you find those one or two other people and you know, I'm not saying start a church tomorrow, I'm not saying, you know, anything too organized. Just get together with that person, lay it out on the table, right? And begin asking the Lord, God, what are you doing? What is really going on behind the scenes? Like what is really happening and how can we get into a place where we're beginning to pray and intercede for what's to come, right? I I think that is such a huge step in this process. I we were talking today, this morning, about uh different people that have been approaching us within everyday mission about joining our network of leaders there have existing microchurches and that kind of stuff, and and they're just they're looking for partnership, but they're also looking like one of the the guys was like, I just I just need help. Like I just want somebody to that understands what it's like to have a bunch of people in your house and depending on you, yeah, and and like I I don't know if this is church or not church or what it is, and I don't know what are we doing, what are we doing? And so um what I think is so interesting about that place and and why this is so important is that a lot of people get to that stage and they've never done the work of the waiting, of the asking, of the you know, an old Pentecostal term, tarrying, terroring with the spirit, yeah, right? And so that's my encouragement here. Um don't skip that part of the process. And it's it's something that Jesus modeled for us as we've been talking about. It's something that is a pattern that has been shown to be the case over and over and over. Um don't just go find the church or the model that you think is going to be the fix for what ails you.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Right. I I mean, maybe there is a new model, maybe it's something that someone's already done before.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Well, realistically, the the problem that we've found ourselves in is too much systemization, too, too much programming, and we really need to strip a lot of that back. So likely for a lot of sleeping giants and lost balls and any other people on that along that gamut of being feeling like this is messed up is probably not going to be more programming. It's gonna be have have a meal and like get on your knees and and talk with you talk with the Lord and talk with people you trust. It's uh it sounds to me like you said four really important things that I just kind of would love to list back that I think were really powerful, of kind of a call to action for anyone listening here is that um if if you sense the Lord is calling you to not forget who you are and to return to Jerusalem and build the temple, like essentially like reconstruct this, like this, this long legacy of people coming back to the Lord and getting after his heart and doing it together, like doing it as a group and let's do it right, would be these four things is find one or two people and contend in hiddenness and silence, like get alone with God, get alone with them, and like let's just let's just see what God has to say about our church situation right now. Because likely it's it's not leaving, like people try and leave way too quick. So get alone, then yeah, share that holy discontent with other people. And it's not out of a bitter hearted sense of criticism, but out of a desire to bring renewal.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

And then thirdly, was come up with a crafted prayer. Like, what is the what is your north star for like what you hope to see in your church body and in your home and how you're raising your kids and what your friends are like? Like have have a have a have a crafted prayer around that and then don't skip the process. Right. Like, don't just tear things down to try and resurrect some new system in your own image. The point is like God will God will produce it. We just have to wait and contend and wait for his calling because like the pattern here is that like the remnant that's left is the ones who who abide are the ones who really who bring change, you know, who really get after his heart. It's good stuff, man.