What Is the Church—and Does It Even Matter? (Jesus’ Original Design Explained)

What is the church, really—and does it actually matter how we define it?

In this conversation, we step back from modern assumptions, systems, and models to ask a deeper foundational question: what did Jesus actually intend when He formed His people?

Instead of starting with tradition or copying existing church structures, we go back to the Gospels to explore how Jesus built community, shaped discipleship, and sent His followers into the world. Along the way, we examine why so many definitions of “church” fall short, what we might be missing, and how this question reshapes the way we gather, live, and follow Him together.

This is an invitation to rethink what we’ve assumed—and return to the original design of Jesus-centered community, formed around transformation, presence, and discipleship through Jesus.

The 2 or More Podcast is a conversation for lost balls and sleeping giants—followers of Jesus who are hungry for authenticity and to grow in their gifts and calling. Mike Bishop and Joel Henson explore what it looks like to plant sustainable microchurches, build spiritual family, and live out the kingdom of God in your whole life.

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Who is Everyday Mission? We are a people seeking transformation in our everyday lives and in the church. We are a people drawn into the harvest field by love. We are using our unique gifts, talents, and resources to influence the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to help equip Everyday Missionaries.

Website: https://www.everydaymission.com/
Instagram & TikTok: @EverydayMissionFlorida

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What is the church? And does that question actually matter? It's kind of funny because when we were starting our microchurch four years ago now, um, we had been a part of various micro home churches before. But when we were kind of stepping into a leadership pastoral position ourselves, we had to ask, like, what is church? Like, what does it take to be church? Like, what needs to be present and then what doesn't? And kind of a lot of what we were doing was looking to trim the fat and just go straight for the heart of like, what is God up to and how do we just access him directly as a community and glorify him and edify each other? So, like we were asking the question for a long time like, what exactly is church and are we tapping into it? And I think that especially for people in our sphere, that's a really important question, actually. What do you what do you think about that? Like, what do you think of when I say that?

SPEAKER_00 0:56

No, and and I think that anyone who is stepping into an environment, maybe for the first time, where the definition of church isn't already firmly established.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Okay. Let's just let's just be honest. For regardless of your denominational stripe, when you step into a church or there's a church being planted, or um whatever, you walk in the door, there is a definition already established.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Well, and you can usually tell by the name, like, oh, it's a Presbyterian church, it's a Baptist church. Like you can make a series of realistic conclusions about what's going to happen there just based off the name. Right. So when you're doing something that's kind of atypical, it's actually a pretty crucial juncture.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah. So a mentor of mine, who was Todd Hunter, he was the um national director of the vineyard church when I became when I was ordained. Um, he took over for John Wimber after Wimber passed and um and eventually left the vineyard and and started uh North or uh an Anglican um North American Anglican branch, church planning branch, which is still going on to this day. In fact, I think he just retired as bishop. Um, but he's a church planner at heart. And when I around the time I got ordained, there was of course a lot of change going on. This was, as I was explaining before in an earlier episode, like that was the beginnings of the emerging church and postmodernism and all that stuff. Well, Todd took a bunch of us young bucks aside and just said, Hey, um, I want to help you. I I don't have all the answers, but I want to help you learn how to ask the right questions. And I that is just so brilliant. And I I will never forget that. And and it's such a huge part of what I have continued to do up to this day as a leader and in our network. That's just good fathering. It's it is that's not that's amazing. Yeah, it's good fathering, it's good leadership, it's good everything. Just good parenting. But one of the the questions he posed was what is church? And he he introduced us to this man, uh, Gordon Cosby. And a lot of people don't know who Gordon Cosby is. A lot of older people that have been around a church might have heard of him, but he was in Washington, D.C. He was a pastor at a church called the Church of the Savior that he planted himself when he was, I don't know, in his 20s. He um was in ministry for over 60 years. He died recently, I don't know, in the last 10 years, at like age 95 or something like that. But Cosby and his wife, um, they had this call, this deep, deep call, to really embody this question. What is church? And and we got to visit him. This was in the early 2000s, and at that point, his ministry had transformed and planted all of these different uh really practical ministry elements within Washington, D.C. They had, you know, uh a ministry that became essentially a hospital for homeless people. Um, they had, you know, a ministry that was like providing housing for the poor. It was all over the map, right? But at their core, they were still trying to figure out what does it mean to be church together. And Cosby was the one who said, uh heard him say, this is the most important question that you as a Christian leader will ever ask in your entire ministry and life is what does it mean to be the church? What is church? And it's something that you can build on over and come back to over and over and over again when the time is necessary for you to really tap into that identity, is we are we are always and ever a renewal movement. We talked about renewal last time, but that is our identity as the church. Like we're never meant to be just a static, like, even though there is the the sense that, yeah, okay, we are the church now and forever until Jesus comes back. But there is this reality that we constantly need that act of repentance and renewal, right? And so the the purpose of asking the question, what is church, isn't necessarily to go back to what where are we missing it from what the early church did. And I this is an important distinction because it's a it's a it's a very common um approach, yeah, when someone, especially in the house church, microchurch kind of space, um, but it's it's part of other denominational and you know practical ministry spaces as well, is you'll go and you'll open up your Bible to Acts chapter two, right? And there's that little description, a couple of paragraphs at the end of Acts chapter two that talk about the church and its infancy in Jerusalem, right? Right. And um, you know, it's it's it's a it's a very uh well-quoted passage, but it's also something that a lot of leaders will come back to and they'll say, Well, where are we missing it? Shouldn't shouldn't we kind of align ourselves with this? You know, and it's and and all the believers met together in one place and they shared everything they had. Um and usually they kind of ignore this first 44, which is and all the believers met together. No, I'm sorry, 45. They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need. Conveniently meet together, but we're gonna uh not sell anything. Conveniently that one gets left out. Uh that's the scary one. But you know, worship together at the temple, met in homes for the Lord's Supper, shared their meals, praising God, enjoying the goodwill of all the people.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

The and and there's nothing wrong with reading that, meditating on it, but sometimes it becomes a checkbox.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah, like that's not necessarily. I'm curious to see where you're going, but I'd be like, you're you're right. That's not necessarily a checkbox for how we should be in this moment. Those are great characteristics of what the church has been and should continue to be, but that's not necessarily a litmus test, right? Like it's it's like reading, you know, stories in the old testament and being like, well, I'm not, you know, slaying giants or conquering nations. Like, does that mean that I'm outside of God's you know, optimum will for my life? I think it's kind of the same thing here, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Right. And I I think too, like, I don't really see Paul doing that in his letters. Um, what I see Paul doing, like, he doesn't say, hey, Ephesians, make sure you check these boxes so that you are the right kind of church. Right. What I see him forcing them to think about is love. Um, am I growing in love? Am I representing the kingdom to my neighbors? Am I standing up to the powers and principalities in prayer and you know, putting on the full armor of God as he instructed the Ephesians to do? Um, so it's I just see Paul approaching things from the perspective of like you know who you're supposed to be. Um the the question is in your context, are you really doing that? Are you embodying who you're supposed to be as the church? And and so the the whole purpose of asking the question, what is church, is to get to some of those kinds of answers. So we've already we've talked quite a bit already in this podcast, just about either like the perception of what's wrong, the reality of people's stories, how do you get unstuck from being a lost ball or sleeping giant? How do you start even getting into the first little bud of what it means to repent and get into that renewal process like we talked about last time? I think the purpose of asking what is church is really to get to the place where now you're starting to, like Paul, look at the context in which you've been placed, where you have landed, where God has called you to be, the people that are around you. And you're you're asking the question okay, how can I actually be and represent everything that Jesus died for and the way that he taught his disciples to be together? Um I actually think a better place for a new church planner or microchurch leader to start rather than the book of Acts is the gospels. I think it's go to the life of Jesus, go to how he gathered his disciples, how he taught his disciples, how he and sent them out. Go to like what is it, Luke 10, uh the you know, the stories of sending out the uh the 12 disciples and then the 70 or 72, whatever, and how he did that, he gave them authority, he also gave them a strategy. There's there's tons there. Um but go go to those places first and ask the question, because the other way to pose this question, what is church, is what did Jesus intend his church to be? Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

The original design, the original intent. Like that, that shows our our function, you know. Right. That's so fascinating. I I love that you you even recommend going to the gospels because if if you were to ask me, like, where would you go? I would think Titus is great, talks a lot about home home ministries, specifically incorporating women into the equation and how men and women should act and what that takes. I think uh the letters to Timothy are like very core of like here's how you should operate your your ministry. And then like Romans is a very much a culture like our own, very wealthy, very progressive, um, very individualistic. And they're Paul's writing a letter to the church saying, like, here's how you be the church. But uh, it's true that we need to go back to what was the original intent because the gospel of Jesus is setting in motion kingdom coming. That is the beginning, that is step one of kingdom coming back, um, like God establishing his reign and rule forever. Um, and that was step one. So, what was Jesus' intent for us to be the catalyst for that, to be this middle ground between the already and the not yet, right? Right. We we love talking about that. I think that's um is that Rayner?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Um, well, he mentions that, but the already and that yet goes all the way back to George Eldon Ladd, who was a Fuller professor, who was really the guy that they coined the phrase. He coined that phrase and he um he also brought the whole the kingdom of God back to the mindset of of kind of the Western church, yeah. Because we had largely you know, people in that day would hear kingdom and they would just equate it with heaven, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Which is something that I'd love I'd love to get to and uh the church functioning in the already and the not yet of the kingdom, right? Do you have a functional definition before we get to kingdom for church?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah, yeah. Um, so I and I I think this is a good segue because what we're gonna what what I want to just kind of mention next is is the part that I think really kind of gets forgotten. And it's one of the reasons why I say you should go back to the gospels to start if you're gonna try to answer that question, what is church, and then maybe even go back further. And so the the going back further part, there's there's kind of two parts to my my definition. The first is is in reality, okay. And this is this again gets to that that point of of really where I think Paul he always starts from is this reality, because he he was the top Jewish scholar, right? He was the he was a rock star Jewish scholar, Paul. Yeah, right. He admits that he says, I learned from the best. Yeah, I was the top of the top, right? Top of my cloud. Right. But he understood this first part extremely well, and so did Peter, so did all the the apostles. In reality, the church is the new temple where heaven and earth meet, of which Jesus is the head and has made us priest kings. So that's straight out of Peter, right? That's those are Peter's words essentially. Um and and what doesn't get talked about as much is we kind of just say, well, we're the new temple, but we don't really explore actually what that means, right? And so the the temple was a place of sacrifice, yes, right? Yeah, but it was also there was all kinds of stuff that that went on in the temple. We would think back like original tabernacle, not even yeah. So there's it was a place of healing. Yeah, if you were sick, this that's where you would go get healed and cleansed. Yeah it was a place of prayer, it was a place of discernment of God's will. So the the priest had the what was it called? The talit, I think. I don't know, I forget the technical word, but oh no, it was the unum and thur thuranim.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

It was basically a a way for them to cast lots to discern God's will. Right, yeah. Okay, mess a little mess with your theology a little bit. But hey, the the apostles did that to pick number 12, yeah, after Judas in Leviticus. So um the the settling of disputes. So if there was a dispute, where would you go? You you went to the temple, the priest would listen to both parties and and answer that question as a discernment of God's will. But it was also where the manifest presence of God dwelt. And and was terrifying. And was terrifying, yeah. But if you were gonna be with God and his presence, that's where you went. Yeah, and so you it's very easy to see from there why Jesus cast judgment on the temple and the temple system and promised that it would be destroyed.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah, because he God had laid out very clear guidelines for what was supposed to happen in the temple, right? And and the Israelites for their took it for their own systems and betterment, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Which you know is so all of those things are are super important, and in the new covenant, when the church gathers, all of those things are present in reality. We act as priests on behalf of each other. And again, according to Peter, we're royal priests. That means we have both ruling responsibility and priestly caring responsibility for one another, right? And the things that God has given us to do. So this is where, again, like sometimes these things get glossed over. And I'm saying, no, this is actually how Peter and Paul and the apostles, this is how they viewed what they were doing, who they were. Yeah, this is their baseline. They were very familiar with the temple and of course and and its even ongoing function for for what probably 20, 30 years at least, after the beginning of the of the church, the temple was still standing, they would still go 100%.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, and even onward from that. But uh until 67, 69, when it was destroyed. But um, so that that's in reality. It is the temple where all these things happen, where we are uh we are priests with responsibility, never sitting, right? Like that's what the priests never did. They were always busy offering sacrifices, discerning God's presence, praying on behalf of the people. So that's where all this is supposed to be happening. And then in practice, what what is the definition of the church that you have?

SPEAKER_00 18:46

So the the practice again goes back to I think you've you've got to start with Jesus, you gotta start with how did he form his the first church? Okay, okay, how did he prepare the apostles for the disciples who would become the apostles to prepare for the first church? And the definition is any gathering of Jesus' disciples, two or more that regularly meet to honor Jesus, learn and grow as his students of the message and the way of Jesus, and to actively seek to teach each other each other to do the same. So, in all of that, again, these are these are just phrases and things right out of the gospels for the most part. So, any gathering of Jesus' disciples, two or more, and of course, what's his promise? Two more are gathered. I'm there with you. Yep. So that's church. Um regularly meet to honor Jesus. So there was a pattern established by Jesus with his disciples. Um my mentor Todd Hunter called it the rhythm of the kingdom. And it was like the rhythm of the kingdom was Jesus was by himself, he was with the father, then he was with the people. He got discernment on what to do, what was the father doing, then he went and did it. And he modeled for his disciples that rhythm so they would do the same. They would get their direction from the spirit, they would go off by themselves, they would, you know, this isn't about having your quiet time, but it really truly is about the the understanding that everything that is good that we do as the body of Christ, as disciples of Jesus, comes from that rhythm of being with God, being in the hidden place, right, being off by yourself, um, alone time versus time with the people.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And that's specifically, I think, for what you're talking about for church leaders, like people who are like Jesus was preparing his church, right? And is that do you feel like that's the call for all people in the church to have this like a like regular rhythm of alone, like time away, praying, fasting, being with the father, being with people?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Well, any anytime we're not together with another believer uh-huh in that two or more kind of scenario, we are alone. And the question is, is that that point when you're alone?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Okay, so so may so making these like lifestyle rhythmic habits of right. Um, when I'm alone, I'm with the father intentionally.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah, I mean that that's that's great intentionality.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

And the understanding too that when you are alone, you're not fully alone. You know, not only is the Holy Spirit with you and Jesus is with you, but the Because of that rhythm, you are in union with anyone who is a follower of Jesus, who's committed to Jesus. You're you're I can I can walk into a room with someone I've never met before, but if they're a follower of Jesus and we're together, we're having church. I mean, we really are. Like we're having church. Uh, because if I make that time, if we sit down, if I've never met you before and we walk into a room and I understand that you're a follower of Jesus, right at that moment, if I'm honoring you and I'm honoring Jesus, we're having church. That's great. We're having church. I love the simplicity of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

It it could be that simple. Is there a specific passage of scripture that you you've derived that specific part of the definition from, or is this you know a collection of scripture?

SPEAKER_00 22:55

Well, ironically, we we kind of mentioned that that passage from Hebrews that Hebrews chapter 10 that every pastor likes to uh to quote, you know, don't forget to meet together. Don't forget to meet together as a habit of so sell your belongings acts too. Yeah. But no, I mean that's that's part of where it comes from because there is that attitude of like um again, if if that was present in the days of the first century, and what do I mean by what was present? If there was a tendency to not meet together regularly, to pull off by yourself, that I've I'm covered. Yeah, I'm covered. I got grace, I'm good. I I'm I'm saved, I'm going to heaven, and I don't need to worry about you know all this church business. I can finally keep all my calves. I can like no more sacrifices. Everything's good. No more, I don't have to go to the temple, I don't have to do all these celebrations and crazy stuff. Like Jesus, Jesus has got me. It's me and Jesus, right? Glory, hallelujah. Yeah, no. If that was president in the present in the first century, how much more is that a reality in 2025? And so, you know, this again is not to try to bash up on people that that are um for whatever reason struggling with connecting with the body of Christ. This is this is again an invitation. But in practice, um, the story I like to tell is we we we support some uh some folks who are missionaries in northern Italy, and they come from um the Middle East. Can't really tell you where, it's all kind of secret for security reasons, but they minister to mostly Muslim refugees from the Middle East that come to Italy because it's just the closest by boat, and they show up on rafts and they find asylum there and they get put into camps. And these people have for a long time, they go into the camps, they make friends, they find out ways to serve and support people who are there, and then eventually they have opportunities to share the gospel after a long period of time. What they found was that you can't really do that openly in a camp where some guy's brother is next to them and they're both Muslim. And if one guy converts to Christianity, the other brother is probably gonna kill him in the middle of the night. And so they had a need, which our ministry um actually supported them to buy an RV. And they bought this RV, and what they do with it is they drive it to these camps on the outside of the camp. There's there's a lot of prophetic symbolism here. This is great. They they they drive it to the outside of the camp and they'll go to like a grocery store or someplace where the guys are working or whatever, and they'll they'll park. And that's where a lot of these men, they're mostly men, are having their first encounters with Jesus in this RV. And then eventually the encounters turn into you know confessions of faith and baptism, and then eventually they'll start a church in the camper. Wow. And so what my point in telling that story is is we just get so hung up on this part of it, and it is that simple. And for a lot of people, this is this might be their only opportunity, their only lifeline to the to the reality of the the temple, that we are the new temple. So here's here's the reality. I'm I'm an unashamed low church guy. Obviously, if we're supporting ministries that are having church and uh camper vans, RVs, you know, yeah, I I'm not a have to have to have a cathedral. Low church. Yeah, it's a pretty low church. Um the but the reality is is you know, yeah, okay, you can go to any central South American town and you'll find on the city square a cathedral that the Spanish built. And you'll find faithful Christians there, right? You'll find people worshiping there. Uh, you'll also find a lot of syncretism. You'll find witchcraft and blended faith and stuff like that. Um, and I've been all over Central South America in those towns doing ministry and stuff, and right around the corner, there will be some little house or some building where the they'll be followers of Jesus worshiping, and they don't need anything, and it it doesn't look big or flashy, but they're there, they're there and they're faithful. And you know, there's a brief story. Uh I got to go to Cuba several times, and we were doing ministry in a a town called Cascajal, which was way, I mean, out in the middle of nowhere, uh, like two hours from Havana, a little farming village in the middle of Cuba. And we stayed in this woman's house who used to be a witch, and then she became a follower of Jesus, and we had church at her house, bare concrete floors, obviously, no air conditioning, wide open. I mean, it's just poor out in the middle of nowhere as you could possibly be. And I can just say, like, again, I'm an unashamed low church guy, but the presence of the Lord was so completely like transparent in that place because there was nothing, there were no trappings, there was no sound system, right? The pastor of that church drove from Havana every week to be with those people because they didn't have a pastor in their community, and it was just a beautiful example of like what's possible when you don't have any resources, you don't have any funding, you don't have any real big plan, but where Jesus is present with his people. Where Jesus is present with his people. That's all you need. That's all you need.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, I think it it is just so much simpler than I think we in the West, specifically in the States, have just really made it out to be. Um there's just this pressure that whoever is leading or facilitating your church needs to have a master's degree for some reason. Uh we were talking yesterday about how uh many of the disciples couldn't even read when they started following Jesus, um as was customary for fishermen. Um and yeah, I just think that people need some permission to realize that you can pursue the Lord together and edify, meaning build up. You can build up each other and you can bring glory to God. You can just like honor and worship him in such simple ways.