The Church Growth Problem Nobody Wants to Talk About

Big churches. Packed rooms. Endless content. Yet many believers still feel spiritually disconnected, exhausted, and unseen.

In this episode of the 2 or More Podcast, we dive into the deeper issue many churches and leaders are facing today: the difference between gathering crowds and forming disciples. We explore identity in Christ, healthy leadership, sacred space, discipleship, microchurches, hospitality, spiritual formation, and why authentic Kingdom ministry often begins in much smaller, more intentional ways than we expect.

This conversation is for anyone wrestling with calling, church culture, burnout, leadership, or the longing for deeper community and transformation rooted in the presence of God — not performance, platforms, or striving.

Topics covered:
• Identity before ministry
• Healthy church leadership
• Microchurch & home church culture
• Spiritual formation & discipleship
• Building ministry without striving
• Sacred space & hospitality
• Kingdom community & authentic faith
• Starting small in obedience

The 2 or More Podcast is a conversation for lost balls and sleeping giants—followers of Jesus who are hungry for authenticity and to grow in their gifts and calling. Mike Bishop and Joel Henson explore what it looks like to plant sustainable microchurches, build spiritual family, and live out the kingdom of God in your whole life.

Instagram: 2ormore_podcast

Who is Everyday Mission? We are a people seeking transformation in our everyday lives and in the church. We are a people drawn into the harvest field by love. We are using our unique gifts, talents, and resources to influence the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to help equip Everyday Missionaries.

Website: https://www.everydaymission.com/
Instagram & TikTok: @EverydayMissionFlorida

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

So just jumping off where we left last time, um, I think the identity image, not just just the Christian word identity, but just how you perceive yourself is something that I've wrestled with a lot. And I think a lot of people wrestling with a lot of people wrestle with who are starting a ministry in their home or at the beach or whatever, you know. Maybe is uh as an alternative to church, or maybe it's a you know, kind of supplement the church experience of like, hey guys, let's let's rally around scripture, right? Um I think young people especially have just a a really low view of self because I think we've been told for a long time you have to have a master's degree, you have to have years of teaching experience, you're not a shepherd, you're not a pastor until you kind of reach this sage place. And I I just don't see that as as true. Like Jesus calling these disciples who are mostly teenagers, right, and very lowly people, a very, very diverse group of people, honestly. Um and I I just like want to call young people into this this statement that my mom always said to me growing up, and it was that um essentially answering the question that like the world needs what you have as you were not created as, redeemed as, or currently sustained as a mistake, right? Like the world needs what you have right now, just as you are in your immaturity, in your brokenness. Um there is certainly I I think caveats to like leadership um types of character, but I think that most people have the character, or a lot of people who are listening to this have the character, but lack the understanding like God has given me something so special, and I'm robbing the world of it because I'm believing a lie about myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Yeah. Well, let's let's just be perfectly honest, too, is that we are all, all, each, every single one of us, young and old, are being discipled to believe by culture, social media, entertainment, everything, that you don't have anything to say if you don't have a platform. Yeah, if you don't have the followers. If you don't have the followers, if you haven't already established a game plan, a business plan, yeah, you know, some something that results in in you being recognized, even if you don't have the degree, even if you don't have the education, but you have to be recognized by followers as someone who's worth listening to.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah. Like you kind of need that before you can even start. Yeah, that's a prerequisite.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Whereas in the kingdom, it's always about heart. It's always about it starts with identity, it starts with that idea of how does how does the king, how does God view me? Let's start there first. Like when God looks at Joel, what does he see? Right. Um when God looks at Mike, what does he see? And you have to start there. That's the first place.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Everything grows out of that place. And really quick second note on that before you move on. I want to hear the rest of that sentence sentence, but this is like our our yoke, right? Like our teaching in our church is like identity, and we teach it as a two-way street. It's what does God have to say about you, and who do you see when you look at God? So, like, if I believe God's distant or angry, but he hear I hear that he loves me, then it's like begrudging or reluctant, or he is a liar. Right. Uh, or if I believe that he loves, or if I believe that he's near to me, but I hear him say, like, mm, you know, like it's like this like again, reluctant or begrudging love of like, I love you even though you're the black sheep of the family. It's like, man, if you have one of those out of whack, it it you're gonna miss, you're gonna miss it all. And so it's like, who am I and who is it that's saying that about me? Because I if I hear I love you but he's angry, it's pointless. And if I don't hear that he loves me, but I know that he does, then we've we've lost it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yep. So when you were talking about that, I just was thinking about the passage in Matthew 3, where John the Baptist uh meets Jesus and he is uh baptized, right? Jesus goes into the water, and what you hear a voice, this is verse 17, and a voice from heaven said, This is my dearly loved son who brings me great joy. Right? And the next verse, chapter four, then Jesus was led into by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted there by the devil for 40 days, right? Yeah. It's it's not it's not this is my beloved son, my dearly loved son, who brings me great joy, and he's going to build the greatest movement on the history of the earth that will last for eternity, and he is the king, and he he will be crucified, and you know, all of the the laundry list of things that are all true about Jesus, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

What mattered to God?

SPEAKER_01 5:43

This is my this is my dearly loved son who brings me great joy. That's my boy. Yeah. Yeah. And so I I it it has to start there. And if we're it honestly, if if if we're responding to what we feel like God is drawing us towards, uh a calling, um, even just a desire to serve uh the kingdom in some way, and it's starting out of a place of oh man, like this really has to get done. Nobody's doing this. Or um, oh wow. Like when I talk about this, people get really excited and look, look at my Instagram, click, click, click, you know, all these people are are are listening to my little videos. And it's like, well, wait a second. What about are you his dearly loved son? You know, do you feel his joy? Like people talk about all the time, like, well, ministry, you know, it's gotta it's gotta come out of a place of rest, and you know, you gotta get inner healing and and have this foundation and all this stuff. But it's like none of that actually works unless you start in that place of of the identity of being a beloved son or a beloved daughter.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yeah, otherwise you're just taking us like rest, then would just be a sabbatical from your striving. Because like if uh anything born in striving is gonna be sustained in striving. You know, and that's what what Paul is is warning the Romans, like the church in Rome, is he's like, were you like, did you start out in grace only to like earn the rest of it? You know, he's like, are you gonna carry on with earning after you've been given like this was founded in grace? Like, why are you gonna carry on in striving? Vice versa. Like, don't start in striving and expect you're just gonna like stumble into this like gracious, grace-filled, restful, unanxious ministry. Like, we have to start in the right place, like we have to plant in good soil, and that is everything springs out of identity. Like you cannot buy you can't bypass it, you can't graduate it, you can't move on. Everything goes back to there. And whenever you rest, whenever you stay in that place of rest, you're staying in the place of identity. I'm my papa's son, I'm my father's daughter, I like that is my identity as a as a man, as a woman, as a husband, wife, leader, that's where we come back to. And like in my home, like that's that's our goal. It's like to live in that place. Yeah. And if you if you try and move past that in your own strength for the sake of the Instagram views, or just like people are listening to me, like maybe I should do this, or I've been offered a microphone, like maybe I should take it. If you have any inclination or sense in your heart that you haven't grasped within yourself, like it hasn't sunk deeply deep enough into you that your reality as a beloved son or daughter has actually changed you from the inside out. If you don't have that conviction, please don't pick up the microphone yet. Like, please don't pick up the camera and like like because it it's not a it's not a rebuke that you're incapable, it's it's a call into wait and wait until the Lord has done his best work so that you can start something that has been planted deeply within you in good soil. Amen. And when you do, it's likely not gonna start super flashy, it's not gonna be like this big, like sexy thing, right? Like it's not gonna be a lot of views, it's not gonna be a lot of followers. You know, like when we started our home church, like people had more questions than compliments, like they had more like concerns of like, are you guys are you guys still following Jesus? Like, yeah. But like the reality is like when you take it to the home, if you don't have that sense of identity, you will be completely unmoored.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah, one of the one of the things I'm most grateful for looking back on our early church planning uh adventure when we started, was um that the vineyard at the time had a pretty pretty detailed process of of assessing a leader and they ask a lot of good questions. And we'll we'll get into that a little bit here in a second, just talking about like the family and your marriage and just your relationships and those kinds of things, and making sure that um beyond identity that you're healthy. Yeah, right. Do you have the character to support this? Right. Well, one of the things I'm I'm really grateful for is that um, you know, after that process, it was kind of like, well, here's here's two grand and a slap in the on the butt, you know, on the way. Go do your thing. Yeah. And I remember, you know, maybe a decade or so after that of hearing that it has become normative, and and certainly is still normative today, both you know, throughout the evangelical charismatic world, that church plants often start with hundred, two hundred, three hundred people, hundreds of thousands of dollars of donated funds. Um basically day one.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, day one we've got an impressive church.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

You're dropped in to an environment that is where most church planners like never get 30, 40, 50 years ago, either never got to or was like, if I get there, that's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And now it just seems so normal. Yeah. Like, I mean, our arc churches do that, like they like have a ton of funding and then they like plant these rather impressive ministries like day one. And it is it is impressive.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

It is impressive. And there was a part of me when I first started seeing that, I was got a little angry with God. I was like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_00 11:56

You know, uh I I get so like self-conscious. Essentially, it's like you know, I'm I work in production and film, and it's almost like trying to make a little indie film, and then you just see these other people like day one just make like a million-dollar film, and you're just like, what? Like, I can't do that. Like, that's not where I am. And and it can it can be this weird tension of like, am I missing it if I'm not there? And I I mean, I just want to say just wholeheartedly, like, you were not missing it if you have three people in your living room and uh some bad coffee, and you guys just sit and just like No, you need to have good coffee. That's that's not negotiable. Yeah. You need good scripture and good coffee. Good coffee, yes. That would that'll get you.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Hospitality, man.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

That's all that is.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

It's just like good coffee, like you can't feed them, feed them bad stuff. Um, I I'm I what I uh my point is I'm gr grateful now, looking back, yeah that I had that experience and that I was able to basically have to work through my own negative image of well, maybe I am not that great of a leader, and maybe you know, all of the reasons why when you're starting small, right, you can doubt, self-doubt, your abilities, your calling, all of those kinds of things. Actually, that's it's important to go through that, but it's important not to stay there.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah, I think it's a valuable lesson to learn, uh especially as you mature in your micro church, micro ministry leadership. Um yeah, I mean, just kind of revisiting that. Really want to call, especially young people who just feel under-equipped but very passionate and like they have a quality relationship with the Lord and they just want to give that away to other people. It's like, come on, like do it, like step into that. And and so much of the like practice and the the equipping comes over time, but like the character, like the heart is what God's after. It's like if that's your heart to like minister and you just want to give that away to people, like, yeah, start meeting in the beach, start meeting in your home. There's great verses in Titus, first and second Corinthians, could probably get some out of Romans, like Ephesians, all kinds of stuff that's about like here's the character of good leaders. And none of it is logistical or financial, right? It's all like do you have the heart of David? Do you have the heart of a worshiper? Are are you orderly? Are you respectful? Do you have uh an ordered and well-organized home? Do you have a loving marriage? Like these are the type, like Titus III is so clear about that. It's like, here's what we expect out of men and women in leadership. Yeah, and it's like, hey, if you can check those boxes, like forget the degree, forget the church funding, crack open your Bible and invite some some pals over for dinner or breakfast or whatever. And so, like, I think just I wish someone had told me that like years and years ago. It's like you don't have to, and you can be young, it's okay. The disciples were young, yeah. So much of the early church was borderline children just running around like preaching the gospel.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, and I don't I definitely don't want people to hear either, like, don't work on your craft. I mean, we're not saying like, okay, because we're saying you don't have to start with the degrees and the and all of the study and all of that kind of stuff, that that stuff's not important. It it it is important to work on your craft. And and it, you know, if you're a teacher, you need to learn how to teach well. Absolutely. Um, if and I I believe every everyone who is has any kind of even two or three people in your living room, like you need to have a good theological foundation. I mean, read widely, like be committed to the scripture, be committed to learning like your entire life. And you know, if your platform does grow, if God does give you the opportunity to have more influence over a bigger or a wider group of people, then get equipped, commiserate with that group of people. So if if you know, if all of a sudden you find yourself and you're speaking with authority to a large or a larger group of people that have, you know, legitimate questions about the Bible and their faith and things like suffering and um you know their marriage and different things like that, then if you don't have that experience, then A, go get it. And find someone go get equipped, who does, or find others that that do.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, that's why accountability and leadership is so important. Exactly. Yeah, I 100% fully agree with that. Uh I'm more I'm speaking to the starting and then the uh the learning and refining, especially if you're submitted to Holy Spirit. If you're walking with the Lord, the pruning will happen. Yeah, you you'll get you'll get trimmed back, you'll learn your lessons, uh, you'll you'll yeah, and you should absolutely put in the discipline too, because it is such a like holy and weighty, righteous weight, like to like uh to lead other like lovers of God to that place of worship. Like that should be taken very seriously, and it's a beautiful thing that is um that I think is just so much more accessible though. It's it's beautiful, it's important, and it needs to be treated with a lot of honor, but it's also not this thing that's on the far side of all these different hurdles and obstacles that you gotta go through first, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Well, well, let's talk about that. So let's say you are uh starting something, yeah, and and the reality is, let's just be honest, it's probably gonna be small. It's probably gonna start with you, a couple friends, a few neighbors, co-workers, those types of things. If you're pursuing the vision, the heart of God that He's given you, maybe you don't have the full picture yet. Maybe it's just hey, I need to get a few people in my living room with some food and some good coffee and just see what the Holy Spirit wants to do, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

So what let's talk about like what are the prerequisites for that? What are kind of the foundational elements that really need to be in place before you start doing that? Because I I was talking to a guy today and you know who's who's starting something, and um and I told him, I said, well, here's the reality the minute you start something, not when it's in maturity, not when you're ministering to hundreds of people, but the minute you start something, right, whether it's just completely innocent on your part, and you're just like, I'm just trying to be obedient to the Lord, you know, I'm just you know, making this up as I go along, just you know, out of out of response to the Holy Spirit. But the minute you do that, it's like taking a big flag over your head to the powers and principalities that are watching us and saying, Here I am, I'm here because I've massive target.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I've submitted myself to the Lord and his call, and I've said yes. Just that act alone is enough for the powers of principalities to turn their gaze towards you and say, Oh, this one over here is humbly responding to God's call, and guess what? We know what happens when that happens, and that's people's lives get changed. You know, people get healed, people get delivered, people get saved. Yeah, there's freedom. We don't want that. And so expect resistance. Now that's not to freak anybody out, but that's why I'm saying like the conversation now is like, okay, I'm in that position, I want to respond. I don't want to get I don't want to get involved in that circus. What do I do to make sure that I stay healthy?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, what's your like uh yeah, pre uh like ministry checklist in terms of character? Yeah, yeah. I mean, to me, uh what just immediately stands out is going back to our identity, you know, uh like and it's so funny. It it's even just talking about how I I want other other people, especially those who are equipped or like passionate, you know, the sleeping giants who are just like I have so much in me, or I'm not sure if I have a lot in me, but I just still have this heart for the Lord. Like I want to equip and encourage those people, but also at the same time, like, man, it is such a lofty and and heavy burden to carry. It's like that's no joke. So even like right now in the same breath, I'm always like, man, it's so easy. Like, please get in there, like go lead people who like want to follow Jesus, but also at the same time, it's like, man, you're gonna get smacked so quick. And like and there's so much that you have to be accountable for. And so I'd like, man, it just even in this conversation, I'm I'm weighing that. But I I would say to other people, yeah, it's gotta start with identity. I mean, if you don't have a firm grasp, if you couldn't confidently look someone else in the eye or your your heavenly father in the eye, be like, I know you love me, and that is the deepest and truest thing about me. If you can't confidently do that, then your priorities I think are out of whack. That I think needs to be first. Secondly, I think after that comes just the actual character, just the disciplines that come with I need uh likely people will I I imagine will be married couples, probably you know, college students doing like home ministry stuff. That's always awesome. But I think a lot of the people maybe listening to this and a lot of people weighing. Like, man, should we open our home? Uh, we'll be at least married, if not, have kids. So I'd say, are your internal family relationships in order? Is your house a chaotic space in the natural and in the spirit? So, like, essentially, like, is there bitterness, is there unforgiveness in your home, uh, in your marriage? Do you resent each other? Um, is your is your marriage a place of overflow? Um, and then that also leads to maybe the third thing, which would be in the spirit, is like, is your home a sacred space? Like you as a as the pastor or facilitator or host or whatever you want to say is responsible. You are responsible for sanctifying your home and making it hallowed ground for that is uh a place that is like safe and welcoming for the Holy Spirit to land in. Yeah. And we want to steward the presence of God well, not just with truth, but with character, like with lifestyle. Yeah. And so it's like this internal reality about me, my life is now ordered in this way, and now I have in the spirit this ordered like lifestyle. And it's like that's what I look at for me is like what's out of line, what's out of balance here, and what needs to be readdressed before we get get people in here.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, you you had asked me the question before, like, how would you assess, you know, from a like a marriage or a relationship standpoint, um, when is it like w what what are like the qualifications of health to move forward?

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah, how do you know if you're like healthy enough in your marriage or just within maybe even within just yourself? Right. Hey, do I have too much anxiety pent up within me that I'm actually not at a place to overflow in leadership? Because everybody's got issues, everybody's got right anxiousness and worries and problems, but it's like how do you assess that? What what do what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, I I I think one of the the first questions that you can ask um ask yourself or if you're talking to someone in this position, uh a question I ask a lot is uh is your spouse on board? You know, like truly. Uh they don't have to be so like if if you're responding to a call for men's ministry, okay, your wife's probably not going to be at every meeting, but is she on board? Like, is she on board with the time commitment? Is she on board with the fact that you're opening your home and there's some hospitality and some some aspects of, you know, hey, I mean it's it's Thursday night, the guys are coming over. Um, can we make sure that we're committed to like cleaning up the living room together? Because that that's real. Like that has to happen. Um it's a big part of it. It's a big part of it. Um, but I would say more than anything else is is your spouse in a place where they're like, yeah, I I really I'm aligned with this with you. Like, I may not be actively participating in every aspect of it. There's plenty of things that Amber and I do that are apart from one another. And almost the the the further you go in ministry and the further the older you get, and and especially when your kids leave the house and there's just different priorities in your life, you can actually find that happening quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

You get more parallel, less intersecting, yeah, like more parallel jobs, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

But but because we've spent our entire married life for each other, right? A hundred percent for each other. Not doing everything together, not even necessarily aligned 100% with well, I feel like God's calling me to do that. Okay, well, God's definitely not calling me to do that. Uh Amber's really diving into intercession and prayer, and and she's got a group of folks that man, they come together and they do 24-7 prayer events, and they you know are up in the middle of the night doing you know, three three in the morning uh night watch prayer, and all and I'm just not there in my life right now, Joel. You know, and I need to pray. Like uh I got I don't know, there's uh a lot of you know work transition and things that I'm going through right now, that it's just I'm in a different season, a different gift. Yeah, aligned with her in the sense that what she's getting from the Lord and and how she's leading that group of people, I see the direct impact, not not even just the indirect, like, oh, it's great that people are interceding for all this other work. But it's like the revelation that they're getting corresponds directly into things that affect me and the things that I'm working on and doing. And so when you're aligned together as husband and wife, whether it's a little small thing in your home or a much larger thing, you you never doubt that, oh, well, maybe my spouse is really manual, maybe they say they're on board, but you know, I'm gonna I I'm what I'm seeing is this resistance. What I'm seeing is this, well, they don't really want to come home early on Thursday and help me clean up the house. Yeah. Because they really kind of resent the fact that I'm have guys in the house, and they're really kind of like, I'd rather you just do this somewhere else, and then this is kind of hurting my uh my lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

And those are the those are the red flags. Those are the times where before you step out, those things need to be talked about and prayed through, and maybe even there's some counsel that needs to be involved in that.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Um, but just forging ahead without dealing with those things is is is a real problem.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, whatever you bring into the uh ministry equation will just be amplified.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

So any uh any bit that you aren't on the same page is just gonna get bigger. Any resentment that you have towards each other is just gonna get deeper. Um, and so yeah, it's important. I think mostly because I mean the spiritual is so unforeseen until you're in it, but it just logistically, like, hey, are you cool with people in our house every Sunday? You know, like hey, are you are you cool if I'm doing 24-7 for you know, 24 hour prayer burns and I'm just gone for a full day, you know, two days, whatever. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, I mean, logistically, that's such a such a big piece of it. And so for me, so something that is near and dear to our hearts, my wife's a a counselor, and and we both just ache for healthy marriages to be had by young people, just because in every generation they're just so rare. Like a truly deeply healthy marriage where it is the greatest joy of your life to just walk your existence with this other person is so uncommon. And we just don't see that it has to be that way. Like there, there are things that we can employ as believers and as just healthy individuals to have healthier marriages, and we want to give those away. Like, that's our our mission in many instances. And we always say that like your marriage is your first ministry. Yeah, you cannot have ministry that progresses past, like that moves beyond your unhealthy marriage. Uh, I just personally have the belief that's not possible. Um, and so any uh tension between husband and wife, especially, or in the home in any sense, uh just has to be addressed first. And I think that that actually is a greater form of worship to even step back from maybe the calling that God has truly put on your life, but saying, God, I'm gonna set that aside and I'm gonna deal first with what you gave me first, right? Which is my bride, right, my my parents, my siblings, whatever it is. And because I mean, what what's the verse in I think it's Matthew where it's like leave your leave your um leave your leave your offering at the altar and go and reconcile? Like lay down your bitterness, yeah. Bury the hatchet, like reconciliation is nearer to the heart of God than uh organized ministry. Yeah, yeah. It's good stuff. Um what do you what do you say about like sanctifying your your home? This is something that Amber has has talked to me and Christine about a lot and something that we really love. Tell me about making your home a sacred space. So like the relationships are good, you're healthy, now we move on into the actual room. Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah, I think um that this is something that's not really talked about a lot and maybe misunderstood, especially in the evangelical world, um, because we kind of automatically assume that the only sacred space is in the four walls of a church building or in some kind of area that we quote unquote go to worship in.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I I actually would even push back on that, that we just don't have a theology of sacred space very much at all. Like I like I don't even think that people think their church is a sacred space. Right. I don't think that they consider that much.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

No, I think you're right. Um Yeah, uh what what we've seen is especially since you are responding to the the call of God, and and that's probably gonna start with you opening your home or something you know where the hospitality is gonna be in the center. Um that there's a real there's a real necessity, and uh I say I use that word very clearly specifically, it's a necessity. This is not optional to establish an altar to the Lord in your house. Now what does that mean? Okay, well, does that mean I have a little, you know, like uh little little thing over in the corner with the I imagine like I had a Buddhist friend in high school and he had like a little shrine in the corner.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Right. Pray against that.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Well No, but actually symbolically, Amber did do that. Yeah, and and didn't you can you know, did and the reason why she did was it was representative of the altar that we were building in our house to the glory of the Lord around the thing that that we had been called to do in our home. And and part of um a prophetic word that I received a long time ago about our ministry was a picture of a house at the time we were rebuilding. We were, you know, had bought a house after the the crash in 08, and um this was like 2010, it was a foreclosure. We bought the house, and we were in the process of rebuilding this house, adding on to it, making it our family home. And it was a dump, and it needed complete gut and and redo. And um, the part of the prophetic word was the guys saw the house, and he was like, you know, you're you're in the process of rebuilding this house, and it's a it's a picture of how God has called you to fix up his house, the church. And he said, I see people coming around you and Amber, much like family. And it was this this really beautiful image of the fact that we were we were spending the time and the money and energy to put this house back in order so that it became an altar to the Lord that would be bearing fruit for every single person that came through. And yeah, it wasn't gonna be hundreds of people all at once, just like your example before with your microchurch. We had the same experience. It was 10 people and then 10 other people, and then 20 people, and then 15 people, and then nobody would show up. And but it didn't matter, it didn't matter because in every season, in every space where we said, you know what, Lord, we are going to open our home for your glory. Um, we are going to teach and train people about the kingdom, right? And we're gonna dive into the word together, and we're going to be about this work that you've called us to. Every time we do that, and in advance of doing that, we are building an altar for your glory. It's worship, it's worship. And so that's non-negotiable. So, like if you have a house where there's chaos, and it goes back to dealing with the issues of marriage and family and drama, and everybody's got drama, everybody's got stuff going on, but it's really recognizing that through prayer and through intentional intentionality, you are building something whether you like it or not. And it's either it's either a monument to your life and your family and your success and whatever that involves, or it's a it's an altar to the Lord. And when you build an altar to the Lord, naturally it becomes sacred space because it the the sanctity and the sanctifying is you saying, I want the presence of God here with us all the time, not just when we have church, but I want this to be a place of worship, of healing, of health for our marriage, for our kids, and for everyone who walks into the door. And that does take time. It's not something that it happens overnight. Um we do encourage people and have a practice. If like you move into a new house or a new apartment, you invite it. I love the practice of going in, inviting some friends over, getting some anointing oil, anointing the doorposts and the windows, yeah, and you know, sitting down, worshiping, inviting the Lord like this is your home. This is your home, God. Like I know you're the God who's everywhere, but you want to be somewhere and you want to be with us.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

And we're your people. So would you come here? Would you establish your kingdom here in this place? And anything that's opposed to your kingdom, anything that we let in through the TV or whatever people bring into this house, whatever demons and craziness and nonsense that comes in here, it can't it can't overcome that altar that we want to build to you as and establish this foundation uh of of worship, really.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

That's really beautiful. And to to kind of provide maybe a uh theology or philosophy of sacred space, I I think it's important to say like sacred space historically in the Bible was a place where it was only dedicated to worship and interaction, any kind of interaction with Almighty. Right. And so when you s sanctify your home, when you're making this effort, you were saying, God, everything that happens here is now unto you. So any selfishness that was here before, any of our former patterns that were self-serving and um unlike unglorifying to you, that like undo creation in your name, we we set that aside, and now everything that happens in this space is now sacred. And in that space, also historically speaking, it was where both loss happened, so like sacrifice, and where gifts were received, like impartation. And so in my home, we sanctify it and we we make it and keep it sacred when we forego our preferences, we forego our our anger, we forego like bitterness, and we also receive back like the love of family, we've received back rest, we receive the presence of God. And so it is this place of giving up and receiving. And so we keep that sacred when we when we say everything that happens here. Yeah. And and we we essentially like swear an oath to that, like God, this is for you.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

That's that's where um the gift of hospitality comes in, too. And it's not just like, oh, I've got nice candles and uh good coffee, right? Yeah, no, it really is that it's it's the welcoming of the stranger, it's the welcoming of the person that does not belong in your house. They aren't family, but you're welcome welcoming them into and inviting them into participation with that altar that you have constructed to the Lord. And just like, you know, the court of the Gentiles at the temple, or you know, whatever it's called, Solomon's uh porch kind of idea, right? Yeah, that's that's what our homes are. And we open the front door and we invite someone in and we're saying, you know, welcome to my Bible study. No, like, yeah, okay, welcome to my whatever, my my Bible study, my my microchurch, my whatever you're doing, but that's not that's that's not what you're really welcoming them into. And and this is where the mindset, like the theological, what you just explained, but also practically, yeah, this is the mindset. You're inviting that person into the temple, the Holy Spirit, to worship together, right? And that's sacred, that's holy, that's important, and and you better take that seriously. And taking that seriously isn't like, oh, well, you know, I can only play worship music, you know, throughout the week. Yeah. I I do like to play Bob Marley once in a while when I'm cooking, or you know, whatever. It's like a bed. You're not gonna defile uh the the altar with Bob Marley, but but you can defile the altar if consistently that space is about you, your preferences, your selfish life, and the way that we've been discipled and trained as as Westerners, especially as Americans, that this house, this is my land, this is my territory, you know. Like get on out of here. Like, here's my shotgun, you know. That this this is the antithesis of that.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Yeah, I I think um sorry if I offended anybody there.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

All shotgun owners everywhere. Hey, now if somebody comes into my house on welcome, you know, they might uh face some different shotgun conversation.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

I I think I think the way that I would describe what you're saying is if you attempt to maintain that partitioned relationship with church of I go there and then I worship them and then I come home and I kind of live not like a separate life, but like I don't see the connection between my life as a believer at church and my life as a believer in my living room. If I don't see that connection, if I try and partition that, you will absolutely hinder, I think, the effectiveness of the hospitality that you're extending. You will hinder what the Holy Spirit is wanting to do by consecrating your home and setting it apart. Um, it doesn't nullify at all because the blood of Jesus is more powerful than your preferences, but uh we do tie the Lord's hands when we kind of give him half. If we tithe our home, if we tithe our time, like we we gotta be all in or or not, like we can't partition those things. Yeah. So I mean we we've covered a lot really fast. I want to just kind of recap because this is a lot of good stuff. We talked about this has to start in a place of identity. Yeah. Identity is who God is and what that person is that's say saying what he's saying about you, right? Who is God and who does he say that I am? We talked about the fact that um the barrier to entry for loving people and hosting ministry is actually low. Like you don't have to be the most equipped, you don't have to be the most perfect. Um, but then in the maturity of that, we'll have to hold intention that it is a very holy responsibility that we need to perfect and we have to hone and we have to search ourselves to be of right heart and right mind to be able to steward presence of God. And then that like relief sits and rests in the space of your home. And it has to come out in those rhythms of your heart being in the right place, your home relationally and spatially being in the right place, and then in the spirit cultivating it uh out of a place of wholeness. And the the kind of underlying thread that I see through all that is this amount of overflow that I've been poured into so much by the Lord. Like I've been loved on so much by him that I can just give away and give away and give away. And I can keep cultivating my home and keep inviting people into that. It's just this constant river of refreshing that I'm getting from Holy Spirit, from from the love of my Father. Like I'm getting that constantly, and it doesn't run out.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah. There there was a point um after having a lot of activity in our house for a few years, I remember people asking me on a regular basis, how do you guys do this? Like, how do you keep up with it? And there was there is a season now where a lot of things are out outside of our home, right? But during that season, I can tell you, um, for the most part, until the the grace lifted. But when the grace was there, the grace was there, man. Yeah. Like it was not a burden. It was a joy. It was wonderful. I loved having people in my home. I loved cooking for people. And just seeing the enjoyment of good food and fellowship together and and then moving into worship and just, you know, eating the word together and all this stuff. All the stuff. It was great. Right? When the grace was there, it was great. And I think that's that's what we're saying is like look for the grace. Yeah, look for the grace. And it's and and when it's present and when it's there, and when you're unified with your spouse, go in boldness. You'll see fruit. And it's not going to be this grind day after or week after week of just feeling like, man, you know, how am I ever going to accomplish this over the long haul? Like you you set the table, you build the altar, people show up, and they feast. And it's beautiful. And that's that's really the heart behind what we're saying.