The Missing Conversation About Repentance in Modern Christianity

What does it actually mean to follow Jesus in a culture that has often softened the language of repentance, righteousness, and personal responsibility?

In this Season 2 premiere of the 2 or More Podcast, Mike and Joel begin with a foundational conversation about the condition of the modern church and the believer’s personal walk with Christ. Before addressing structures, systems, or church models, they return to the core question: what does it look like to actually live a life of repentance and spiritual maturity before Jesus?

This episode explores why repentance is not condemnation but a daily posture of returning to God, and why spiritual growth cannot be outsourced to programs, leaders, or institutions. Instead, it requires personal responsibility, honesty before God, and a willingness to grow in righteousness through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Together, they unpack:

• Why repentance is essential to spiritual maturity

• The difference between conviction and shame

• Why personal responsibility cannot be replaced by church systems

• How believers can feel “stuck” while still being invited into growth

• What it means to return to Jesus in a practical, daily way

• Why righteousness is still central to following Christ

• How spiritual formation begins in the heart, not the institution

• The danger of remaining spiritually passive in modern Christianity

This conversation is both sobering and hopeful: sobering in its honesty about where many believers find themselves, and hopeful in its invitation back to Jesus as the source of life, freedom, and transformation.

Repentance is not the end of growth; it is the doorway back into it.

"Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" — Acts 3:19

If you’ve been feeling spiritually stuck, disconnected, or uncertain in your walk with God, this episode invites you back to the simplicity and power of returning to Jesus.

The 2 or More Podcast is a conversation for lost balls and sleeping giants—followers of Jesus who are hungry for authenticity and to grow in their gifts and calling. Mike Bishop and Joel Henson explore what it looks like to plant sustainable microchurches, build spiritual family, and live out the kingdom of God in your whole life.

Instagram: 2ormore_podcast

Who is Everyday Mission? We are a people seeking transformation in our everyday lives and in the church. We are a people drawn into the harvest field by love. We are using our unique gifts, talents, and resources to influence the world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to help equip Everyday Missionaries.

Website: https://www.everydaymission.com/
Instagram & TikTok: @EverydayMissionFlorida

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Before we go any further on form or practice, um I just as I've been praying and and spending time with the Lord on this, it's been a few weeks since our last recording, right? Um I've just been so convicted by like what I've been seeing in in the church, locally and nationwide specifically. And it's it's just struck me that the the least important thing about your church practice is the building that you go to.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

It is absolutely the least important thing. You know, the the Catholic Cathedral, the Presbyterian church, you know, the Baptist sanctuary or your living room is the least important thing about it. And the church just has to be walking in righteousness and repentance. Like there's just there's just no way around it. Like if I would rather go to any church that is walking dedicated to the Lord and readily repenting of sin, not compromising with sin at all, which is what I see as a major problem, is like we are making friends with sin so that we don't ostracize people and we're not walking in righteousness. And so it's like it's gotta be said, like if we're talking about how do we how do we fix a broken system and how do we bring some life to some believers who are feeling stuck? Yeah, if it doesn't start with repentance and return and walking in righteousness, then we're not gonna win. Yeah, we're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, I I think we we've been talking a lot about the form of having people in your living room as kind of a starting place, if you feel stuck, uh, whether that's uh you're a part of an existing church and you know you say, all right, we're gonna we're gonna just uh find an excuse to get some people around the dinner table, um, talk about the kingdom, learn together, get into the scripture. And then maybe if you're not part of a local church and there's this desire for you to build community and have spiritual family, uh maybe you need to volunteer your house and and you know, volunteer to go that direction. Um, but I think, yeah, uh we have been talking about that as a way to get people moving, right? It it's it's really about don't stay stuck just pretending or or accepting the fact that things might feel broken, things might you you might be in a situation where wow, I there is no leader that I want to follow anywhere. Everybody's so messed up, right? Yeah, and so but what you're what you're talking about, and I'd I'd like for you to maybe unpack a little bit specifically put put yourself in the shoes of someone who is feeling stuck and is a lost ball or a sleeping giant, like we've been talking about, and what would it look like for them, even if they were a part of an existing church, uh regardless of of the stripe, what does it look like for someone in that position to pursue righteousness and repentance? And where do they start? You know, it if if if what you're saying is true, which I think it is, I think that there's there's a lot of of necessity, particularly around naming where not just naming where things are broken, but owning our own your own brokenness. Yeah. So how would someone go about doing that? What's the first step?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, I mean, I I think it's important that we're specific about where we feel stuck because I'm not certain that like that stuck feeling you have is the fault of your church. Yeah. I'm not convinced that that's necessarily true. I think it can be, and it often is, but um I think we have to be very careful because uh it's not your church's responsibility for your spiritual growth and well-being. Uh, I heard I heard Judah Smith say years ago. Is he still teaching? Like I don't know. Judah Smith. He's a pastor in LA. I don't know. Anyways, uh, you know, cool guy pastor from 2010s. Yeah. I heard him say years ago. He's like, you know who cries when they aren't being fed at their church? Like, you know who cries when they aren't being fed? Babies. Yeah. He's like, it's your responsibility to feed yourself, like feast on scripture.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Like God has given you No, that any any pastor's pet peeve is to hear someone say, I'm not being fed. I'm not being fed. And and and and it's even worse when you hear it after someone leaves, and they say to someone else, Oh, I wasn't being fed there, and you're like, Bro.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Yeah. Yeah, that's uh wholesale. We need to rid that from our vernacular in the church because I mean that's Hebrew six of like uh we should move on past the basic message of Christ, on into the deeper things, laying on hands, various types of baptism baptisms, raising of the dead, and you should crave pure spiritual milk. I believe that's all Hebrew six. Um like it is your job to go to the source. Like Jesus did away with what we had to do before, which was go to the temple, go to the holy people, offer this sacrifice, and they're your mediary between God. Like we were this is Israel longing for a king again. Like God made a way for you to come directly to him. So us like striving for this connection through through the church is I think a foregoing of responsibility in some ways. And so I think for me, as someone who has been stuck, has also like walked in fullness in church and also been very confused about that, I would say start start in your own heart. You know, it's like what Jesus says about like you can't take take the thorn out of somebody else's eye while you have a plank in your own eye. It's like I can't rebuke my church for their sin or their neglect if there's sin and neglect in my own heart. And so it's not that we strive for perfection, but it's just the fact that like if I feel stuck and if I feel like the system's broken, maybe I'm a broken part of a system and I should come to the Lord for wholeness and healing. Because that's a that's a good line.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Maybe I'm I'm a part of a broken system.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, I'm I'm a broken cog here, you know? And and I think it's just important for us to not um assume that each person listening to this or each person who feels stuck in their church existence uh is walking in the power and authority and goodness of the Holy Spirit, washed in the blood of Jesus, near to the heart of the Father, like assuming that that's the lifestyle that is being lived across the board, I don't think is a given. In fact, I think that that's a rarity. And so before we even revisit, like form matters, practice matters, but even before we get back there, I think we just need, I want a reminder of like, man, I need the conviction that walking in my own righteousness is my own and biggest responsibility. Yeah. And I don't want to point fingers and say the fault is there, the fault is there, the fault is there, right? I want to bring the church to life and I want to be a whole conduit for that.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah. Uh if we title this podcast episode um How to Walk in Righteousness and Repentance, uh, we'll probably get like 12 people to watch.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It's not so sexy. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is like if the Jesus that you follow can't um can't rebuke you, you're not following Jesus. Like you've you've formed your own little image of God and you're worshiping. And so like if if if we can't say like repent, righteousness, like this is the call in your life, then you've fabricated a form of Christianity that doesn't exist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Um, you know, recently last time we were recorded, I was right in the middle of the sale of our business. Yeah. And very hard season. It was extremely hard season, just soul shredding. I think I told the story to people. It felt like getting punched in the face every single day. And then by the weekend, you know, you heal, and then Monday morning you get punched in the face again. Um, but we're we're now two months on the other side of of the new company, and um the sale has happened and the cortisol levels have gone down. And I'm learning talking to a therapist, and and one of the things that he keeps saying is like, Mike, you know, you got to realize every day you were you were fighting a battle every day. And like your fight or flight. Right. So that you're so now so used to that, you're not used to just daily life that isn't that. And so he's he keeps saying it's it takes about 21 days to to reformulate kind of a new habit when it comes to like a lifestyle, you know, wake up every day response kind of thing. Um so I'm I'm past 21 days now, and I feel like I'm starting to to get there. But one of the one of the questions I would have if if someone is in that situation, and let's say they come to terms with the fact that they're they're actually, yeah, I I am a broken cog in this wheel. Um there's a couple things. First, you know, what are some practical steps forward in that space? And then second, how do you not, because again, we go back to the reality that uh following Jesus is a is a team sport, it's not an individual occupation, yeah. How do you even in that space, again, not talking about form or function or anything like that, but really really about not being alone. How do you how do you ensure that your experience of beginning to get your your cog repaired in righteousness and repentance uh doesn't happen alone? Yeah. Uh I've got some ideas, but I want to hear your thoughts first.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah. Well, I mean the the trouble there is that it starts alone.

unknown 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

It ha it has to. Yeah. Um uh confession is mandatory in the process, but that's not step one. Step one is deal aggressively with your sin. Um I think it is so easy to keep your sin as a pet, to keep it as uh like a comfort object, bitterness, uh, anger, pornography. Like it's easy to keep a pet sin because it makes you feel good. Yeah. And like, and and it's Jesus walking past them the man, you know, uh who's been paralyzed for three decades and saying, Do you want to be healed? Like, that's the same, like I heard Philip Anthony Mitchell say that. He's like, it's the same call today for people in bitterness. Like, do you want to be healed? Right. Like deal aggressively with your sin, like get it, get it gone. And and secondly, is like repent. We talked about repentance. Repentance just means turn, turn back to God. Means change, change your ways, catch the eyes of God and and walk towards Him again. Um doesn't have anything to do with shame, doesn't have anything to do with condemnation. It has everything to do with love and compassion, acceptance from a loving God from a broken and contrite heart. Um, and do that readily and often. Repent often, repent daily, repent momentarily. Um, Brother Lawrence says, like, um, he's like, When I know I've sinned, I submit my request humbly and boldly before the Lord, and I never think of it again. Yeah. Awesome book, Practice of the Presence of God, is is a beautiful, theologically questionable, but a great, but a great, uh, a great thought-provoking read uh from a very humble and wise man. And like I I've just adopted that in my life of like, God, you don't need me to punish myself for my sin any more than uh just me submitting it to you, recognizing God, I I messed up in this way. I'm still very much a sinful and broken man, and I'm gonna let it be gone. It is God is separated as far as the east is from the west, it is at the bottom of the ocean floor for all I care. And so I would say like those two things, and then and incorporate community, then take it to your sphere, you know, confess. Like, here's what's been going on, here's how I need you to encourage me. And and and honestly, my my thing with that is is celebrate walking in righteousness. Like, we need to involve celebration, breaking of bread together, both around special occasions and also like milestones uh of sobriety. You know, like it's been this long since this, like I've been free of this for this long, like I've been a believer for this many years, like whatever. Like, I would love to celebrate with believers more. That's a big tenet of our household. So, like then taking it to your community, not just in the negative, but also in the positive, to celebrate around like I'm walking in righteousness. Can you do this with me? Yeah, that is a life of freedom and gladness that doesn't have to be heavy, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah, I think um my my experience uh in what I was gonna say, just in terms of a a place to start, um, so I've been a follower of Jesus essentially my whole life, and I've gone through different seasons of time where, like you say, I feel like I I create a little side Jesus to worship and serve for a period of time. And I think when when everything transitioned uh you know, a few weeks ago, and you know, kind of the stress left and all that kind of stuff, one of the things that I was left with inside was I I kind of lost touch with Jesus in the middle of that. Yeah, you know, it was my prayer, which is a very valid prayer, is Lord help every day.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

It's amazing how simple it gets.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, actually exactly. Um super, super valid. And hey, if if you're listening to this and and you're like, I don't even know where to start with repentance, I don't even know where to start with anything that Joel's talking about. Um, that is a place to start. That is actually the best place to start is Jesus, if you're there, help. And and see what he does. Yeah. I mean, there were so many days where I was waking up getting punched in the face where I just said, Jesus, help. Yeah. And he helped. And that that's an important, an important note.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Stacks, right? So like it's the people people love to talk about hierarchy of need of like if you don't have air, you're not thirsty. And if you're like not thirsty, then you might be hungry. And then like if you're not hungry, then you know, like these needs stack. So, like, yeah, if you're drowning in fight or flight, trying to recognize where there might be sin in your life or trying to even deal aggressively with it is probably not the move. And so you're ex you're exactly right. There is a there is a moment of uh, but like kind of what we're talking about is moving on past being stuck into fullness of living. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

And that's the phase I think we have to pass through from God help to there's some things that need to be addressed into I want to live as a full I for me personally, where I am today, because I'm on that that track again, there's things I need to get cleaned up in my life, I know, because things got really squirrely. Every several hours it's help refine fullness. But the but the place that I've moved now to from Jesus help, I think uh maybe even another interim step or a possible interim step is just the discovery of who Jesus is again. And so one of the things that I'm doing right now, I'm reading through the book of Mark very slowly. A couple days a week, I'm pulling, you know, another 30, 40 verses of a chapter or whatever. Um, and I'm not trying to study, I'm not trying to feel, you know, do any theology or or teach out of it. This is and this is rare for me. I think we I may have said this before. I mean, I I love studying the scripture in order to prepare a way to teach others tools and ideas about the kingdom, right? That's just my wheelhouse. I love that. But God was and my approach to this was very clear and very specific. It was like, no, this time for this reason, all I'm doing is noticing Jesus. Cool, and and noticing his behavior, his words, his pace. This was one of the craziest things, was just thinking about the pace of Jesus. And of course, Mark is is a very it's the most compressed gospel.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Shortest book, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

It was kind of written. I don't know if this is a hundred percent true. I've heard that it was kind of written more towards a Roman Gentile audience kind of idea, um, or at least was distributed that way. And so there's an element where I've always said, well, it's kind of like the most American gospel. Cool. I can see that uh in that way, because it's like it just it is very direct, it doesn't pretty much it doesn't start with genealogies, it doesn't start with, you know, yeah uh like John retelling the the Genesis story and all that. It's the opposite of Hebrews, yeah. It's it just bang.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

It's like uh like Romans, yeah, and just like right to the church and right into it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Um but what I what I saw, and in the story, I'm about halfway through the book right now. Of course, because of of the way that it's told, you see Jesus very, very active. Like he's busy, he's doing ministry non-stop for his from start to finish. Obviously, it also tells the story of him going away, um, you know, getting away from the crowds, his disciples come look for him. Where are you? But then it's not like he says in those moments, um, go away, I'm with God now. No, he he he listens, and it over and over and over again, you see the compassion of Jesus. And I think that's what's affecting me most right now, is that and even as we're talking about hard things like repentance and and righteousness and living, you know, aligning your life with the kingdom and these types of things, which can be, you know, I mean, it's pretty sobering conversation. It's like, well, wait a second. I'm I'm I'm looking at all these problems around me and scandals in the church, and people going through all this this crazy stuff and hardship, and you know, leaders falling left and right, and you know, where it and none of it makes sense, and uh everything is broken and all that stuff. And then we're saying, okay, well, look inside, and you're like, oh wow, I'm really broken too. And then you kind of start you you kind of start getting to this place of like, well, there's no hope, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Well, that's exactly what Jesus did, though. Like he came into this like Roman-occupied, yeah, Jewish little society, tiny little speck of land, and they're like, Jesus, save us, and he's like, I came to fix my like fix the bride. Like, he's like, I'm not here to overthrow Rome, I'm not here to fix all your political issues, I'm here to fix the problem of your own individual broken heart and yeah, it's mind.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

It starts there, and then like you were saying before, like start there and then discover those around you who also are getting woken up to that reality and just be vulnerable, but at the same time celebrate when you see the transformation happening. Yeah, and I think, you know, I I mean one of the things that I'm I'm writing down right now is just times when I'm noticing that I'm not in fight or flight anymore. Um, I'm not just reacting to situations, trying to solve problems, um, but just noticing when something moves from my gut up to my brain, and my brain has a chance to process it and say, is this real? Or is this My reaction. Right. And and then I get to make a decision. Because that's how you repent, honestly. You decide to. Usually from a place of conviction. Yeah. But it has to go from your your gut into your mind, into your your will, like the center of who you are. Yeah. And and that, led by the spirit, can say, um, I I need to turn around. Right. I need to go a different direction.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

And then from your head to your heart. And the eight in a train. And then go back. It's got it's got to go there first. That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, that's true. Yeah. You make decisions with your gut when you're in fight or flight. You just pull the trigger. And that's right.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

And that's why those the things that become routine habits uh that make you feel comfortable, those types of things, which I hey, I understand that. Believe me. I'm wrestling with some of those right now myself in this transition that I'm going through. Um but you start realizing how those things, when they just stay in your gut, will just continue to run unopposed. Unopposed. They just have a mind and life of their own, and they will just keep going because some of it is chemical. Like your body just says, Oh, I need a little bit of pick-me-up. And so I'm just gonna run in this mode uh because it makes me feel good.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

And so yeah, I I I think we're what we're really saying and advocating for, uh, honestly, in this in this whole conversation, um, you know, we we kind of have a a national, maybe international at this point, epidemic of lack of awareness of your own self and your own sin, your own brokenness, and your own brokenness. And we've we've actually now created theology that overrides and ignores all of that. Um victorious Christian living and you know, all kinds of ways to say you're okay, just go on, you know, God's grace, grace, grace covers everything.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Yeah, and you prophesying provision without any knowledge of it does, yeah, grace does cover everything, but we are not meant to live like you said before.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

It was that that whole concept of just being being an eternal infant.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, yeah, that there is a call to spiritual maturity, you know, and I love that is like the Lord for me, it my relationship with God makes so much more sense when I just extrapolate the fatherhood analogy out, you know, like how does a loving father talk to his son, you know, like how does he talk to his daughter? Um, and like there comes a day when a loving father should like trust you and partner with you, and like you know, hand you the tools that he's working with and like toss you the keys to the car, and like there should become a day where you're walking in maturity with him, you know, and like you know, analogies can fall apart if you take them too far, but I think that we just need to be hungry for maturity and like not turn the the river of life that flows through heaven out to the churches into a swimming pool for our own comfort where I'm just soaking in the grace of God at all times. And it's like the gospel comes with a weapon, like the gospel comes with responsibility. I read a book one time that says the gospel comes with a house key, it's a call to to hospitality, like radical hospitality. Yeah. And I was like, like there is a major call to responsibility that comes with the gospel, and we cannot dam up the river and make it for our own comfort to uh absolve us from having to repent and walk in true righteousness.