Train. Eat. Think. Episode 5 - "Special" Supplements - (PED’s. TRT, Peptides)

This episode Francis and Ben have an open and honest discussion on supplements, PEDs, peptides, TRT, and health management in fitness. The aim of which is to inform our listeners and viewers about firstly the need, if any, the risks, the benefits, and importantly the role of fundamentals in training and health decisions.

For online 121 coaching enquiries/information

Please contact Francis on X/Instagram @coachfhm or email fmeliacoaching@gmail.com 

Contact Ben on X/Instagram @benjaminyeezus or email benyeezus@gmail.com  

Thanks for listening. See you next week :D 

Transcript

Introduction to Special Supplements

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Trainee Tink episode five. We are back today. Again, after a uh another good successful recording last week. Again, we've got to say thanks for all the support that we've been getting. It's been brilliant. As you say, we just want to keep them coming. But today we are touching on everyone's favourite topic, which would be special supplements, whether that be, you know, PDs, peptides, TRT, all this sort of stuff. You know, we're all adults. We're in in this industry. I think we need to have a honest conversation and talk about it and you know get some thoughts out there just in case there is people who are you know on the fence and not sure what to do with it. And we just want to have an open and honest conversation with everybody to uh you know to try and better inform people. So looking forward to it, mate.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yeah, it should be a good one. We're we're sort of doing this to neither promote nor scare people off, but just to make people aware of all the angles and maybe some things that they can they can look at and rather than maybe diving in with two feet. So just looking to clear a few things up and then make sure that the basics are firm. Again, we're all adults out here. We should be looking at doing our own research and understanding again just before we jump right into anything that's going to affect things like our hormones, our health, and we we need to understand all these variables. It's not just as simple as talking to the big guy in the gym and then coming back with some some things. So I'm really excited actually to get in and talk about this one. I think we'll we'll go quite deep on this, Francis.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Absolutely, mate. And it it is a touchy topic, isn't it? I think there is a lot of um people that may be a little bit scared to talk about it. There is a sort of you know, hush-hush about it. I know it might have been we'll talk about it a little bit more nowadays than if you go back, you know, 15-20 years ago, it was a lot more hush-hush. Again, I think we want to we want to start this off by saying, you know, by no means are we um trying to promote usage or demonize usage, it is very individual, but we can all make our own decisions, but that's what we want to talk about is is it the right decision for you things to think about? And we just want you to be of a sound mind when you are making these choices because whatever you decide to do, it's not just gonna affect you right now. You've got to be thinking, how does this affect the next three, four, ten years of your life? That's why it is when when you are playing with your health like this, you've got to have best knowledge and information going into it to make the the best informed decision makers, isn't it? And that's it. That's what we're here to do.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, this is something that you if if you decided to go down that road, you you're bringing your health into more focus into into under the microscope, so to speak. So what we want to do here is is inform people to to to be know that know what's out there, know the choices. To be pro-education rather than anti-anything. There's a lot of videos out there in the space on different platforms that you can see and that I would say even glorifies it, um, maybe influences some people because it's like here's all this good stuff, and there's you know, zero downside, risk looks different for everyone. You know, understanding your own health markers again, something that we can get into like what can you do if that is the road that you ever decided to go down? Regular blood tests, getting checked

Understanding the Risks and Responsibilities

SPEAKER_01 3:13

out, heart, um, things like that, things like calcium scores, stress test on the heart. We can we can get into all of that. But I think it's just really important to say that what we're doing here is is pro-education and even helping people understand a little bit more about the risks and and having to get that knowledge about your own body and understanding what can go wrong, because there is potential and there that there is risks to this.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah, I like the word risk management. I think that's very important with this because you know there is uh no freelance, so to speak, with it. So you you'd have to uh you do have to make the the most informed decision. But I think a good way to start this off, mate, would be, you know, let's take an example. You know, this this probably goes on quite a lot. You know, you've got a young kid, you know, maybe someone who's 21. He's within his first year of training. You know, he stepped in the gym, he likes what he sees on uh on Instagram, on TikTok. He's seeing all of these big fellas lifting all these weights, and you know, he wants to come in the gym himself and he he wants to build a physique and he's told that uh well you need to take this and take that to to get to this level. And you know, I I'm sure you know the classic story that this this must go on across the gyms, across the UK, the states, everywhere. What advice would you give to some you know, a 21-year-old kid? He's a year into his training journey. What advice would you give to him here before he starts locking down this route?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I mean, if we could only be 21 again, Francis. I give give give my left arm. I I think if you're young uh and and I understand now in the social media age that it looks very appealing, you're already in the best position hormonally. You're gonna grow so much, you're gonna get so much progress without looking to you know shut your own hormones down potentially. There are things that I don't think get mentioned enough, which is fertility becomes a huge and you might even be at the age of 21. You're still not really ready, maybe slightly different from our parents' generation. But a lot of um kids now at the age of 21, you know, you're still very young, you've still got your whole life in front of you, and this is what you need to consider. You know, you've got a very young training age, you need to get yourself in and start nailing the basics. Look at the guys around you and how they train, look at how they eat, and look how many years they've put in the gym. These are the things that you should be looking at.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I like the the the one training age, I think that's that's very, very important because that's that's not just inclusive to this the 21-year-old kid. This could be someone who starts to train

The Importance of Training Age

SPEAKER_00 5:46

when they're 41, 42. You've got to look at your training age. How many years of proper, legitimate, structured training have you had in the books already? You know, what have you been doing with your food? Have you been tracking food correctly for an X amount of time frame? Have you been focusing on the fundamentals of recovery? Learning how to train everything that you do inside the gym. You know, as we know, training is a skill. The execution, the composure during your sets, pushing things to failure with good form, understanding good programming, no recovering in between your sessions, all of this stuff. This is all meat and potato stuff. And before anyone even considered, you know, hopping on anything of anything, any regard like that, you you'd want to be spending a good couple of years having all of your X's and O's crossed and living the lifestyle, so to speak, because in those first couple of years of training or your training ages, if it's very low, those first couple of years that you're gonna see such massive steps forward and in muscularity, strength, and everything without even touching any sort of PEDs or special supplements. You just need a good couple of years of proper structured training, and what you can do to your physique there, uh it's crazy. It really is.

SPEAKER_01 6:55

Yeah, I mean, I've seen it often, I would even extend it to say I've seen it like all the time. You've got somebody that's sort of checking in and checking out a few months here, a few months there, maybe a six month stint, back out again, and then obviously making the decision that I'm I'm gonna speed this up a little bit, but it it doesn't speed anything up because you haven't really built on the platform from the bottom to go on top of. All you're doing is sort of kicking the can down the road. Yeah, you might look a little bit better at that point in time, but it's not gonna make up for again the basics that you've mentioned, uh Francis. Training, training intensity, recovery, all of this stuff, getting your nutrition right and out outside of the gym. And these are things that you can help to find your way forward. You you're gonna you're gonna build muscle to a good degree, you're gonna have that really early, as we say, training age, you're gonna have years there that you can see what your natural level can be. Don't be um what would the term be? You know, don't be disencouraged because it takes time, it should take time. That that's by design. And when you're putting that time in, you're gonna reap the rewards back because you're you're building the platform, you're putting the time in, you're getting stronger, and you get to see that firsthand, and you know then that that's something that you've worked hard for and you've you've managed to accrue.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

And there's definitely something to be said, mate, isn't he, for building a natural base up front anyway, you know? Yes. Any any top coach out there would say to any competitor who was probably serious about you know pushing the limits of their physique long term, they'd always recommend building a good natural base up front anyway, because that that is that is something you solidify up front. Again, you learn your fundamentals with your training, recovery, nutrition, you get all of that locked in, and then your ceiling only becomes that much higher. Whereas if you're someone who you know you're six months into training, you don't really know much. Let's be honest, after six months' experience. I I think back to my own six months of training or my first six months, I didn't have a fucking clue what I was doing. Absolutely didn't know what I was doing. So, you know, at that stage,

Building a Natural Base

SPEAKER_00 9:01

if I would have hopped on something that's been six months in it, it was just that would have been absolute madness. You build that base first, and then your ceiling would only be higher down the line, anyway, if that was the uh the route that you wanted to go down. But uh a question I'd like to ask you why why do you think people they they want to jump down this route so fast? Do you think it's human psychology of just you know wanting the I I I get it? People want the the fastest results possible. We're all human, we are impatient, I get that. You know, it is basic human psychology. What what do you think is the big reason these days? Do you think social media plays a part?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

I I think it's more more than ever now. Social media, and we see this a lot across the space of what can you do in a six-week cut and an eight-week cut, and we've we've touched on before. You see those changes on a daily basis, there's no delayed gratification because it's just work hard, follow your nutrition, create your deficit, do what you need to do, and you can literally visually see it gets to a point now. How are we? That wasn't there an hour ago. It literally does get down to the hour. I think one of the best analogies I can think of is it's maybe presented as the cake. This is the cake when it's actually very, very different. When we're talking about super supplements, they're actually the little sprinkles that's on top of the cherry that's on top of a three-layer cake, you know. And that is a fact. If you've built, like we're talking here, you start from the bottom, nutrition and training and recovery, you're building up the cake, and literally those would be the sprinkles on the top. If someone was was looking at that, um, we should come from a space of what does healthy look like for an individual? Even being a natural athlete, you should be getting checks done on your blood to see where you sit. We can even maybe tangent off here into true TRT, Francis, when we're talking about potentially someone maybe feeling effects that could be they are hypogenadal, their testosterone levels are low, not through any fault of their own. It could be it could be lifestyle related or it could be just that's that's the way that the trend is. But if you've never had any blood work done, regardless of your status, then how do you know what now how do you know where you sit? How do you know where you are? Because you haven't had that blood work done on on a on a basis. You haven't had your your your checks done, for example, like calcium scores in your heart, where does your where do your vitamin levels sit? So it's a hot there's a whole plethora of things here that you need to. I know that in the States they don't do MOTs for their car. It's it's a great analogy here in the UK. We put our car in once a year. Obviously, if it's not girls are less than three years old, you put your car in for an MOT every single year. What does that MOT do? It tells you the filters are okay, it tells you this, that, and the next thing. We don't MOT our bodies, and and just before I hand back to you, Francis, one of the things I was going to say is not just when we're talking here about special supplements, maybe just again human sort of psychology, we wait until there's something wrong before we fix it. So it's like, oh my god, there's this, I better go and get it fixed, rather than as we're saying, we're

The Role of Social Media in Supplement Use

SPEAKER_01 12:11

doing those regular checks to make sure that everything's alright before we make any sort of decision to play with hormones or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, absolutely. We say, don't we, that that that is the foundation of if anyone is gonna make a decision to take testosterone or TRT replacements, which you know, as we know, it's very popular these days. You need to make sure that you you are having your blood stone up front because that's gonna, you know, you as you say, the MOT check. It's uh a look under the hood, isn't it? You know exactly what's going on, and it's just stuff that you can't tell just by you know looking at a person, you need to need to get your blood stone and see exactly where everything is. But I think it branches nicely with with with the with the testosterone when you talk about TRT. Do you think a lot of people are very, very fast to go down that route without even looking at their lifestyle habits in in the first place? Because you know, let's just take an example, you know, whether it's a straw man argument or whatever, but let's just take you've got someone who a 35-year-old man, and he's went to get his blood done, he's very, very, very, very low on testosterone, but he's sleeping four hours a night, he's routinely drinking alcohol every weekend, his protein is below 100 grams a day. He's not training, he's not doing any sort of cardio, but he goes and gets his blood done and thinks that he needs to take testosterone. But the thing is, if he fixed his lifestyle habits in the first place, they're some of the big rocks that if he focuses on on improving those testosterone levels, more than likely are naturally going to start to come back into a better spot anyway. And obviously, if he fixed all of his lifestyle habits over time and it didn't fix his testosterone levels, okay, by all means it makes more sense than to to go down the routes of TRT, but don't be don't be looking as that as something to paper over the cracks of a faulty lifestyle because that's that's a problem, and that's what you what you see with a lot of people that are trying to paper over the cracks in their lifestyle. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

I mean, I think you make fantastic points, and I think you hit the nail on the head there about how you approach a particular issue. So everything's pointing to that and all the literature that we see at the moment, and everything sort of pushed down that line, and I think it absolutely stands to reason about well, what have you done to try and fix it? We all know that if your sleep's garbage, it's going to be you know, it's one of the most anabolic tools that you have is is your sleep and recovery as well as your nutrition to help you from the training. One thing I can share with you I recently had a a client who's a lifetime natural and he went through quite a cut probably for quite a long period of time before I I started coaching him. Um and he was complaining that he just felt off. He didn't feel how he should feel, you know. He's around about the age of 32, he didn't feel how he should how he

Lifestyle Factors and Testosterone Levels

SPEAKER_01 14:59

thinks he should feel at the age of 32, and a lot of the things he were telling me was it definitely doesn't sound sound right. We had him into a slight surplus at this point. We got his buds done and it came back, and there was a few markers there that definitely weren't right and needed um needed address. So what we've done is we we brought his foot up a little bit, we reduced his output, so like things like being deliberate. He's very, very active. You'll know yourself, it's probably similar to I. When we're when we're in this space, our steps are just our steps. We don't really think about them. We've got a target, but we're just doing them on the daily because that that's what we do. So when you're actually bringing somebody to say, let's take it down or not, just let's relax, let's rest a little bit instead of training five days, let's do three days, don't go 100% on everything that you do. And over like a four, six, eight week period, he's just honestly come up to the last couple of check-ins in particular. He's like, I've got joy back in my life. I'm I'm happy, I feel good in the gym, I feel like I'm recovering. I feel like um I'm trying to think of somebody else, some of the other things that he said. I'm not hyper food focused anymore. So all of these things coming through, just to give you an example, and a real life one just recently that he could easily have said, Yeah, I'm just I'm just gonna go do it, gonna do that and go down that route. But we managed to get um it was actually his prolactin level, so we managed to get him fit. He hasn't blood tested again, he probably will in the very short term. But one of the things I did say to him, and it's not to say that he shouldn't get tested again, he absolutely should, but if he's feeling good at the moment, then that's good. Let's just ride that and let it for another sort of your three months between tests, and you can say my levels are here, and this is what I did to get me from from very low to very high. But when he's giving feedback about how he feels and how he's training us and how he's enjoying it, and how his strengths can up, uh it's a perfect example, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, that's a great example, mate, of you know, taking your bloods and going off what that says, and then fixing some fundamentals before going down the route of uh TRT first, 100%. And I think another good example as well, mate, would be um, you know, let's let's say someone is is 40-50 pounds overweight, they've got excess of body fat. As we know, excessive body fat is going to rehavoc on testosterone. So that is again that low we're talking about low-hanging fruit here. This is the message that we're trying to get across to people before jumping down the CRT route is take care of the low-hanging fruit first. If you're 40-50 pounds overweight, getting yourself into a consistent calorie deficit, you know, obviously watching your food choices again, your activity levels coming up, sleep improving, recovery from your training, all this stuff. And every 10, 15, 20 pounds of body fat that you take off, that's only gonna naturally improve your natural testosterone levels, and that is just such low-hanging fruit. So I think it's very, very important to you know, take some

Real-Life Examples of Lifestyle Changes

SPEAKER_00 17:49

responsibility with it. I think I think that is that's another part of it, mate. And you know, you whether you hurt people's feelings with this one as well. But again, take care of low-hanging fruit. Look in the mirror and go, well, what can I fix about my lifestyle? Because what you know, we're all not perfect. There's things that you can fix, there's things that you could do sleep, stress management, overweight, excessive alcohol consumption, you know, I've just reeled off a couple there, mate. How many are probably doing that? Poor sleep, always drinking every weekend, you know, 30-40 pounds overweight. These are all things that you can fix and you can control before going down the TRT route. And that and that's all we're trying to get across to people.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

I mean, the other thing is if you bring it in too soon, just to come come into your point there about being having a higher BMI, you're just adding in another risk factor. Now, you could counter that by saying, well, that's potentially going to help. And actually, I I I couldn't challenge that because that that could be right. But we've just given an example there and we've talked about something that again, if you're getting down to the basics and and making the things work that you know, you potentially maybe save yourself from making a decision, you reduce the risk factors, and then you don't need something. Again, it might be that you you do all that. You know, there could be circumstances where you do all that and you get the £30 or the £40 off, and you still find out that you potentially need some help and there, the sense of true TRT. That's not to say that it's absolutely going to fix every single person. And again, Francis, do you agree with me here? We're not here to give absolutes. We we don't talk like that. We we talk about different scenarios for different people and just try to get that information out there to say, you know, you can do the best you can around those variables and factors. And as we know, it is a fact that if you've got lower BMI, higher muscle mass, there's a good chance that you're probably not going to be in an estrogenic environment. So estrogen being nice and high, which is forcing the testosterone low, and you might even get to a spot where you flip it on its head again, as we used the gen in my example that I've been working with recently. He's avoided that, maybe even for now. He maybe wants to make that decision later on. Again, he's an adult, he can do what he wants, but we've we've explored things there that can help resolve to an extent and help build up rather than just going straight to the juggler and saying, Well, I'm going to make this decision. Whereas there's other things that you could potentially do.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah, it makes total sense, mate. And I think that is the uh people get offended or they have an argument where it's it's like the chicken or the egg situation. Think, okay, I need the TRT to make me go to the gym and make me watch my diet. That that makes me do all that stuff better when they already have poor habits up fronts. And I I think again you've got to take some responsibility with that. If someone again the low testosterone and they do everything they can, they've tried everything they really have, had a good crack of the whip, and they're still you know hypogeneadal and and and they need to go down that route. Well, by all means, like that makes total sense. We're not here to point the finger and go, ooh, you shouldn't do that. Come on, it makes sense, doesn't it? At least have a go at trying to fix some of your fundamentals, be proactive with that, and as you say, not going right for the jugular right away, and you know, taking the sort of the path of least resistance right away. But that's not to say if you ever take testosterone, you're cheating, you're you're taking you're you're you're a pussy, you're taking the cowards away out. No, we never, ever, ever,

Addressing Low-Hanging Fruit

SPEAKER_00 21:10

ever said that. And that isn't that again, we've got to get that across. We're not saying that to anyone. We just want you to make the best possible choice and at least have a fair crack of the whip for a good amount of time of being truly honest with yourself, of having your fundamentals with your lifestyle in place and doing your the absolute best you can, and then at the end of it, you hold your hands up and go, Do you know what? I've had a good crack of the whip there, and for whatever reason, testosterone is just not in a good spot at all. So I'm gonna I'm gonna have to go down this route, and by all means go for it. And I'm sure that you'd agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

I think you m you made a fantastic point, Francis, when you said that they went on the testosterone, for example, and things changed. So, what happens is some people will anchor to that and say that that was the game changer or the difference maker. Again, just slightly stepping away here from what we're talking about in true hypogonado situations, but what actually happened you you got moving you got responsible about your diet you changed how you looked in a short period of time again coming back to what we said earlier it's the sprinkling so you've got the sprinkling but what happened is you you've got the sprinkling but you got your cake and your cherry on the top sorted but you just thought that the sprinkling was was what changed it it wasn't you you you achieved so much more and again if you've got that in then these are the things that you're looking for because when if and when you you you were to take it back out for example you know that you've built a platform on that you've got sustainable habits there you're focused on replenishing your body trying to recover so that you can train hard and I say I I think that's a great point that you you raised because it feeds right into that because we need to be certain that people are looking at it through the right lens and and doing it from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

It's it's it's focusing on the big rocks mate isn't it that's that's what we're trying to get across to people. It's the big rocks the things that really move the needle forward and again if someone is new here just just joining into this episode if you go back and listen to our last couple of episodes we've got some fundamentals of the training nutrition piece jam packed full of good information that you need to be like listening to and taking in with your training and nutrition because again you're training if you're coming into the gym and as an example if you're you're doing excessive volume and you're you you're pushing yourself into the ground it's only as good as what you can recover from what whatever you do with testosterone or whatever if you're training as shit you can't paper over the cracks of shit training. Same with your nutrition if you're if you're just focused on shoveling macros in with no interest in micronutrient content the digestibility of your food your meal timing organising proper carbohydrates around your training fueling your sessions fueling your recovery just coming in and just sprinkling in some testosterone and you've got all of that low-hanging fruit have you still got that all to take care of you're just you're missing the boat and that's what we're trying to get at is that you've got so much that you can fix with your training and nutrition and then you get into you know the your simple things like sleep sleep hygiene

The Psychology Behind Supplement Use

SPEAKER_00 24:08

that's a big one mate like you how many people's sleep is just so poor and then they're they're trying to jump right into special supplements or whatever. Yeah but I I I I could talk a bit about sleep as well something what's happened with my uh with my own recovery of late but I'll get into that soon. But yeah people need to get onto the big rocks and focus on that first.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

I mean you mentioned earlier about patience of human nature just in general you know we we are or we can be impatient but what we need to realise as well that somebody potentially is coming through that it's never really pushed like a proper improvement phase scanning phase bulk whatever you want to call it again we've done the episodes where we where we say we don't call it a bulk we're looking for improvement. Saying I eat everything I eat everything mate I just eat everything. And you're having conversations with people and there's no structure or consistency you know that they've never sat as we mentioned on our on our improvement phase up to a year could you could even get two years out of an improvement phase. Sitting down the we've spoken we spoke just earlier in in this podcast about seeing hourly changes we know that we don't see that in an improvement phase so we're looking at slowing down changing the the performance metrics okay you might not be in completely over the moon with what you see in the mirror because it's not five percent body fat 10% body fat whatever we see you know on social media. And again I have been as guilty as the next person because it's here's all of these pictures of me shredded and one thing I've learned over the last 12 24 months is I need to show people I'm actually spending time I spend very little time I I think I work this out Francis something like 20 weeks something like that actually shredded and the rest of the time I spent trying to grow so you see the disparity there in terms of what it is you're trying to achieve that's where the patience comes in that's where I've pushed again in phase to to like two years and that that tells you everything really that you need to know about where you should try and see things in terms of trying to grow rather than being I tried it because I ate everything. Did you write it down? Did you take markers? Did you have support and accountability for what you were doing? Did you understand? Again talking you made a great point last week Francis about the mistake that that you made because you never set your target it was just I'm going to eat until I'm here and then I'm gonna cut again and we spoke about that sort of flip-flopping between eight week bulk six week cut but if you get on the right path and you create that nice big long runway you can be getting successful improvement phases and coming out them with the muscle tissue that you want.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

And and that's it mate like the first couple of years anyway like as we know like we're 10 plus years into it we we still get benefits of you know your improvement phases and dieting down and going through phases right now but if you're very new and you're someone a low saying age you've got no business going down the route of touching any sort of like special supplements if you haven't even been through a couple of bulks and cuts anyway. Like imagine what you can do for those first three four years of let's say you you you start off you get a little bit leaner up front and you set your building you the build your your runway for your building phase your or your improvement

The Importance of Patience in Training

SPEAKER_00 27:13

phase and you go through a nice big push up 10 11 12 months you've accumulated some new muscle tissue and strength you know especially that first year of training like what you can do there it's nuts. You diet yourself back down you know you've got more muscle tissue now that level of leanness that sets yourself back up for another good push up and that second bulk that you do or the build phase or improvement phase that'll be even better than your first one because you would have learned from by going for your first one there's no better way to gain experience and wisdom is by doing the do going through your your improvement seasons and and every improvement season you do get better because you learn more. You will make mistakes that's fine same with your diet phases your first couple of diets you'll probably make some mistakes you probably get a couple of things wrong but you will you'll get better each diet each bulk you do something always get across the clients every one of these you do you get better at it you become more efficient you'll have all your of your exes and all crossed even more you know your body response and you're doing yourself a disservice by trying to skip all this this education process for yourself and just jumping right for the jugular right away and going for you know special sports supplements right away where you've got a good couple of years there of your broken cuts learning and understanding your body you can get so much viable insight from that and trying to skip that part of you it's only gonna it's only gonna hinder you down the line.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah I mean one of the things as well is the the psychology of it all we sort of touched on this when we're talking about going straight to it being the cake when it's not you know and I've seen this a lot you know someone's making great progress and they think that that's what's making them um have the progress when they've got everything underneath but sometimes as well that can lead to maybe a little bit of sloppiness maybe a little bit of forgetting because there could be maybe some um compensation from that and rather than looking to add add add on the super subs it's like well slow down stop and think about what's worked and what's working we've we've touched on it here where we're talking about training being on point looking at your habits and making sure that you've got them locked in having that pathway or a roadmap whatever you want to call it in terms of where you're heading on your your improvement phase if if that's the particular phase that you're in again it's slow and it takes years but you need to have that goal but as well along the way you need to have and get into enjoying the daily process and the daily things that go through it. Because if you start skipping those if you skip your eating for long enough or you go down to maybe like a day I only trained once last week and I'm only going to do one session or two sessions this week when you start to dip on that then you you need to kind of expect what's

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

SPEAKER_01 29:53

going to happen. But again that's coming from the foundations and the habits and and having them cemented sustainable and in a sense being non-negotiable because it it takes years it does.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I think accepting that upfront and being right this this is going to take years and becoming a I like to I coin the term like champion of the process you've got to become a champion of your own process and love the day to day of it because I think a lot of people mate the they're so fast to touch and talk about a natural limit. They they they put that out there maybe after three years of training that's something you might hear a lot probably see it's with some of your clients as well you know I'm 15 16 years into training and I'm still making progress at this level of advancement. Again you know you touch on some of the clients that you've worked with we're not going to name names you know you know what I'm talking about who he's made great steps forward in his physique over the last couple of years he's just finished this season last season and and he looked fantastic the improvements in muscularity that he made stepped forward and that's with you know 15 years of training so you've got top natural athletes no yes the progress is it's slow we're not gonna bullshit about that and say that they're putting 10 pounds of stage weight on you know in a year no that doesn't that doesn't happen of course but you can still make noticeable improvements and this is 15 16 years deep into the game because you're always open to learning more there's always things you can get better with nobody knows it all and we're the first ones to say we don't know everything and we're open to learn we we want to get better and I think that is something that holds a lot of people back and it's it's the it's the ego element of it is that they think they know everything after three years and they think our natural limit I've reached it I know everything now I just need to I need to jump on the special supplements to take the next step and in reality they don't they're only just scratching the surface with the potential after three years. So yeah I think it's uh I think it's important to touch on as the sort of nonsense of the natural limit.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah I mean that particular gent has put on 10 kilos of stage weight so if you compare similar levels of body fat I think that's a good comparison without mentioning you know being five percent body fat for example 10 kilos is 20 22 pounds in in seven years it's not bad one thing I would say about this particular person is I say it's not bad. I mean that in the in the most positive sense I was being a little bit sarcastic there. He he doesn't miss a trick he doesn't miss a protein feeding he doesn't miss a meal his training is some of the most intense that that you've seen and that's fantastic and it's probably worth as well just saying and maybe I should have said it a little bit earlier than now but I'm working with clients that choose both routes and for me there's there's no judgment on on my end I don't make any distinct um there's no distinguishing between this person does this this person does that for me the the playing field is the same to to a certain degree in that you still need to do the same things you still need to eat you still need to train whether someone's already made that decision that that's the path that they want to go down. Again the whole kind of point of what we're doing here is trying to make sure that the reality is it's out there as we as we said there's

The Psychology of Progress

SPEAKER_01 33:07

videos that talk about X this and why that and and quantities of um within and it's like well if you're gonna do it and that's what you you want to move towards do it as an adult do it with the understanding that you've done some research do it with the understanding that there's risk you know don't just jump from thing to thing and and think that all the basics go out of the window. They they absolutely don't in fact they become even more important because you've got more things to to worry about so to speak because you need to be doing your work to make sure that your health is there. There are certain supplements as well out there in the space that help you manage the risk of things like taking care of your heart taking care of your liver and your kidneys because you're putting them under scrutiny pressure. How intense that pressure is depends on how healthy you are and that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no risk here and it's just all reward. Everything comes with some sort of price if you don't stay on top of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Again that's just why making sure that you do have your process nailed down as much as possible it's only gonna basically multiply anything that you did take down down the road. But just a good point mate is that I seen a gent on X on the timeline the other day and he was he's another coach and he was commending his um commending natural athletes saying that they in order for them at a certain point to make progress they have to be super meticulous and he respects the hell out of that because you know you don't have anything else to pull on you have your training your food and your recovery that's all you have you don't have nothing and at a certain point you need to be meticulous. You can't skip a beat and you know obviously myself being uh a natural athlete of of 15 16 years and this is not me sitting here going I'm not sitting on my high horse like oh for me I'm natural I'm better than everybody else I've never ever been that type and you you know that I'm not about that at all sitting on my high horse no it's just you will see that in order for me to to make progress I have to have everything nailed on and the reason I'm saying this is because over the last couple of years my process has got so much better and that was if we go back three four years ago I was still 12 years deep into training I was competing in powerlifting you know I'd done a couple of um national competitions so I was no I was no slouch you know what I mean I I built a good level of muscularity and strength that was after 12 years but I've still improved massively from year 12 to year 16. Now what's changed what what have I done differently so I think for me again the big one it's the education piece of understanding and executing inside the gym form on all of my lifts is so much better than four years ago so from year 12 to year 16 form and execution so much better which equals better stimulus better understanding of movements and what I need for my body equals better stimulus. This this this is only scratching the surface of what's got better but this is what I'm saying if I'm if I can still make progress at this stage of the game what can somebody do year two year three that's just the training piece understanding better programming got so much better at all that stuff like understanding how to you know doing just enough to be able to recover and come back again and go again and I never used to know all this stuff and that was after 11 12 years I I didn't have the understanding that I have now and then you go on to things like nutrition mate like nutrition wise came on so much with all that stuff in terms of the digestibility of food the micronutrients meal time and not that I was bad no because I wasn't I got to a good level after 12 years I'd done well but there's just it's just taking it up like an extra 10% and it just that in combination with improving your training improving your knowledge of training and programming all of that coming together that's an extra 20 30% of just getting better at the process and it's showing your physique developments over the you know especially the the last the last 12 16 months but yeah it's just it's it's it's crazy how much you can do we think that we know it all but we don't and you've got to be open to learning more and getting better at your process because I I guarantee everyone everyone can get better at what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Everyone I think that speaks volumes Francis about about you as a person you know it's one of the things that sort of drew me whenever when I first saw your content I was having a conversation with someone the other day and they're like how do you know this guy and I was just explaining you just put it out there there's no fluff around it and that's the sort of content that that I gravitate towards because we do like to put it out there that we're we're not gatekeeping anything we're not hiding anything here. It actually says on the YouTube and and I think in the in the descriptor of of what we are we're open minded guys that are learning as well as as helping people who are on their journey because I think the minute that you say I know everything I'm better than everybody you're in severe trouble. You're in such severe trouble because that means that you've shut the door you're not going to listen to some of the things that we've got now about the science coming through we've learned that there's diminishing returns it's not just about going in and doing 30 sets oh I've done 30 sets this week I'm gonna do 35 next week and then I'm gonna do 40 sets we've learned about through trial and error of ourselves and through helping clients and seeing them develop that works in this this sort of instance this will be a good a good spot here but always comes back to exactly like you've said there how you control your weights using myself as an example I really had a struggle growing my chest and my shoulders I now lift less weight on my chest and my shoulders than I've ever done but I don't miss a rep and I think that's been absolutely monumental even when I look back at some of my competing pictures from from a few years back the difference in my physique is there and that's just coming from how you lift and how you're connecting with the the muscle I actually thought to be honest I was like I'm a really good trainer like five years ago because I I'd done it for a while and now I look back and go man you jack shit like I mean I'd made a I'd made a I'd made good progress from what from where I had absolutely that there's no denying that but I'm better now and I understand and I can look at things now and break it down a bit more and go I know that because of that and again it just comes from experience and I think keeping an open mind to say that looks good that will be good and then obviously sometimes as well I'm experimenting on myself using some lift to say and that's actually really useful if you if you want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

And that's the thing mate we can you you

The Importance of Fundamentals

SPEAKER_00 39:35

can always improve your process and I think that I think the training piece everyone thinks that you know I was a trained obvious everybody thinks like after a year or two I'm the business mate I I know what I'm doing I you know I've had clients come to me and this is not throwing shade at anyone and they and they and they tell me yeah I I you know I'm I'm quite advanced I know my way around the gym I'm an expert in it and but being quite honest your physique doesn't show that and that's not me being rude everyone thinks that they they're an expert and you know the ins and outs of a cat's ass so to speak but we can all get better we can all get better and you've got to have that you've got to have that that that viewpoint of you know I'm I'm just a student of the game here always a student of the game I'm only 31 myself and I I keep thinking like last five years the the the advancements have been massive so I I just I I can't wait for the next sort of five years ten years on top of that it's chasing just chasing getting better mate it really isn't it if you have that mindset and your patience you know think things that are not not abundant in society nowadays mate but it is it's it's having that patience and the process mindset it gets you so far.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

I mean it's definitely about practice isn't it one of the things that the the the more adept that you become I think again that shows that the the passion that we have because not um not trying to blow like our trumpets to say that well we've got the best physiques in the world you know I I'm I'm well aware of my weaknesses and I've got a lot of work to do as well but what I am saying is I I've managed to learn along the way some things that work other things that don't some things that you believe in and some things that you don't and I think that's where some of it at the moment comes a proper when we see in essence what's really become a parody in terms of what what they call science based lifting now. I think most of these videos are just rage bait I don't really understand them if I'm honest I don't see what people get from them when it's literally just D handles chained together to do some sort of silly exercise. I've sort of lost it but you know the fact that you've got that passion many many years on and we've got that desire to keep improving which means keeping our ears open not being afraid to try things not changing things weekly certainly not you know but being open minded enough to say I used to think that this was the way I now can understand that maybe a little bit of that coming in and just having that little bit of confidence I think and I I think that grows from growing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Absolutely mate and I think what you're saying there about some of the stuff that we see on social media you know like these uh the good old Keenan flaps you know there's uh there's there's so much nonsense in terms of exercise and you know the the science based lifting mate but I think it's a nice segue into the the next point is that we what we see a lot of on social media now all the hype is um peptides there's there's lots of talk on TikTok X we're always on X you see it on Instagram it's even starting to come out now mate people are talking about it even in likes of Hollywood and all this like you know what is peptides and you know all this sorts of stuff yeah I think we we have a little uh a touch on this and probably in particular on rhetorite have I have I said that right rhetoritite yeah that's that tends to be you know one of the big famous ones right now um you know it's which again in the wrong hands and done for the wrong reasons it could be you know potentially damaging so I I think it'd just be it'd be nice to to touch on this because there's there's there's there's there's multiple lenses to look at peptides and the uses um and negatives of them again and this is to go back to what we said at the start we're not discouraging anyone we're also not promoting it we're not pointing fingers at anyone saying oh you're you're you're the worst in the world because you do this. We're just trying to inform people because again there is a there's a lot of nonsense out there. So yeah what's your thoughts on on peptides?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah I mean peptides are the the shiny new thing that that's breaking and I I saw something just today where the quote was peptides have gone mainstream so it gives you all the potential for recovery and fat loss and health and the fountain of youth which everybody is is is chasing um but most won't really be able to tell you what they actually do. One of the things we need to be really wary of Is that there's no long term data. Now again, just to reiterate what Francis has said, this isn't we're not trying to scaremonger, we're not trying to be inflammatory here and and and get clicks or whatever. We just want to have the discussion that that's a fact that we don't know what's going to happen in 20 years' time. Yes, there are some discussions around at the moment in the states, things like the FDA and getting approval for some of the things that are going to become bona fide. And again, that's great. There might be studies down the line that say it's absolutely fine and whatever. I think you just need to watch that you have those foundations in place and that you understand what it is that you're looking to do and achieve by X compound if that's what you've um chosen. Do your research, make sure that you know it's coming from a good source. Because one of the things at the moment with in in the peptide space is you're buying it off potentially, I'm not going to name nationalities, but you're you're buying it off a website that could be anywhere and you don't know, and you're just delivered the powder, you don't know what it does, you don't know what it could be, it could be nothing for all you know. So again, you know, we we're just really raising that awareness around be a be aware of of what potentially you could or can't get. Some peptides do some processes, one of them is called angiogenesis, and that basically helps to create new vessels in the body. Now that sounds all fine and well, and the wording out there is that it helps recovery from injury and things like that, which again is great, fantastic, but then there's a flip side of that, and again, I'm I'm just gonna say this isn't scaremongering or anything, this is just what's out there, it turns things on. You can't just choose it to turn on your injured part of your body. So if it's your body's going through that process, it's communicating to various different cells to grow. There's some cells in the body that you don't want to grow, and again, without being too specific about it, that's where the danger might lie because you've grown cells that you don't want to grow, but this is what you were trying to do on the other side. So, again, it's just reading that a little bit deeper and understanding that for every reward, as much as you'll be told that it's safe and it's this and it's that, and again, the studies might come out and and support every single peptide that's coming out, and the list is like that and grown pretty much daily at the moment. Um, but again, it's just be aware, understand, do your research, and if that's the the position that you want to take or road you want to go down, it's no judgment, it's literally just saying know potentially what can go wrong because there are instances out there I've I've seen conversations in different forums and places online. I did X, Y, and Z, and basically I was reckless, and now I have this ailment. What can I do? And it's like, well, what you should have done at the start was maybe slow down a bit, maybe do a bit of reading and understand how you got to this point. And again, I think it's just about raising the fact that there are risks, nothing's risk-free. Just be aware that because the biggest guy in the gym said this, it doesn't really mean that it's absolutely nailed on and it's something that you should do as well.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

And that's it, mate. It makes makes total sense, like obviously doing your research, being informed, as we said before, nothing is risk-free. I think the big one, mate, that's taken the world by storm at the moment is as we know, the obesity epidemic is the GLP ones, as we touched on before, retter. I I I've even had people back in the UK, mate, like clients have called it the um like they've got friends who are taking it and they call it the uh the skinny job. That's what it's called at home. And you know, it's it seems to be everyone's taking it now, everyone is on it is taking Rhette. And yeah, it it's it just seems to be the big wave everywhere. And I think again, coming back to our fundamentals before, is that people are so fast just to, you know, we do they want to take Rheta as an example or take a GLP without having any sort of fundamentals in place. Like, you know, I I'm not even gonna learn how to train properly, I'm just gonna take Rheta. I'm not gonna worry about how to track food or meal time and micronutrients. I'm just gonna take Rhether. I don't care about sleep, I'm just gonna take Rheta. So this is that is that is a bad path to go down. Again, there's even been instances I I know we spoke off air about um there's there's been people back home who've been taking these GLP ones and they haven't been resistance training alongside that, and they've just lost a lot of lean tissue as well. So yeah, the people have just got to be careful what they're doing, haven't they?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

I mean, I even had a conversation with a friend who had shared with me, I think it was MPEC or Manjaro, but you've got Reta as well, obviously GLPs, GLP ones, slightly different actions. Tetratuitide is basically it's a tri what they call a triple agonist, so it works on three different sort of pathways, and then glucagon, and it's got the appetite suppression element to it as well. So the years MPEC and the Manjaro have only got two out of the three, so that that's a slight the sort of difference in there. In this uh conversation um the person shared with me that they'd lost a decent amount of weight. I think it was let's say three stone at the point in time, it was two or three stone, I can't remember exactly. So, like uh, what's that, 28, 28 pounds plus? So I was like, well, that's obviously really good if that's what you're trying to do. Like, are you doing any like resistance

Understanding Peptides and Their Risks

SPEAKER_01 49:14

training as part of that? Oh no, no. So what are you eating a day? Well, in the morning I have a bite out of an apple, in the afternoon I have three or four bits of pasta, and at night time I'm I'm not hungry, so I don't eat. And I'm on this dosage, I'm pretty sure it was say it was a Zempic. I'm pretty sure it was a Zempic, it might have been Manjaro. Oh yeah, um I'm due to double my dose in in two weeks' time, so I'm just gonna double my dose, but you're already not eating anything. So what's gonna happen when you double your dose? You're just not gonna eat anything at all. And I think that's part of the, as we mentioned, the responsibility of what we're doing. We can't starve our bodies, and as well, I think it feeds into when we talk about having a roadmap or a pathway. Doing the GLPs in the in the absence of resistance training is just like dieting without resistance training. 40% or up to 40% of the tissue that you lose is lean mass, and we're not talking here about 21-inch biceps as much as they're really, really good. We're talking about things like certainly here in the UK as you'll know, when we get into my generation, into our 60s and our 70s and our 80s, we're gonna need to pull ourselves out of the bath because there's not gonna be you're gonna care for yourself at home. That's that's the model moving forward. If you're doing these things, again, as I'm saying, it's not about 21-inch biceps, this is about basic muscle tissue on your frame doing tasks like again, pulling yourself at the bath, taking yourself down the stair. And one of the things is obviously the older that you get and the frailer that you get, you're gonna be um subjected to potentially falling, and you're only two or three falls, and and and this isn't you know trying to scare anybody, you are literally only two or three falls away from you don't have a fall off in essence, and all you're doing there is literally harding the pun, feeding into that by starving the body of what it needs. Now I'm I'm not against absolutely not. If some people think that they need that to give them the platform to go on, then absolutely, but again, what we've mentioned here is about the basics about what we're doing, sustainable habits, you know, sustainable change, having things that are non-negotiable. That's just like sticking the elastoplast for me over your eyes and just being like, okay, and then when you're done with it, take the elastoplast off and you go, Okay, what did I do there? You know, people talk about yeah, you stop it and all the weight comes rushing back. I don't think that's necessarily true. I know that the studies will show that this and that happens. But again, what we're talking about here is if you need needed it and you made the choice, do it as part of this is what I'm gonna do, because what is the alternative? You're gonna sit on it for life, as we've already mentioned. We don't really have 20, 30 years of data. I understand that they've used some of the GLPs and and and treating diabetes and stuff like that, but we haven't used it for what it's being used for, and again, the iterations that are coming out, so there's already three, the retitrutide is three G in essence. OG is on the way, it's already in development, there's people talking about it, and they're already looking down the line 5G 6G, the sort of sixth generation of a GLP one and what it's going to look like. But again, and and just before I pass back to you and Francis, it's what we do, we need to be setting and stacking those habits because what's the alternative? You you wouldn't just stay on it for life. I I I certainly wouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Yeah, I think you're making great points there, mate, about having again it all comes back to our favourite word, doesn't it? Fundamentals, having those in shit, and it's context context dependent, it's always gonna be individual based. Now, you take two examples, you know. Are we saying GLB ones are bad? No, but you it's context. Let's take you know, you've got a 25-year-old fella, he's going to lie better in the summer, and he's gonna start taking rhetoric, and his diet's shit, his training shit. His his fundamentals are just they're just terrible. And he's gonna jump on rhetoric because he wants to be shredded on the beats in uh in August with all his mates. The other side, the flip side, you've got someone who is genuinely obese and they're six months away from not being here anymore. Taking some sort of GLP ones as a kickstart for them to get them on the straight and narrow with decreasing their appetite, starting to drop off some body fat, getting them into a healthier spot, they start building those fundamentals and those habits. Because maybe without that, like as I say, that they're six months away from death. So something like that, it makes total sense. So I know they're two totally different like contexts, but you can see where you've got to look at it and go, does it make sense? You know, you're just trying to get leaner for the beach. Do you really need to be taken better? Again, if you just if if you got all your X's and O's crossed with your calories, your meal time, and your tough notes of your diet, you could get to the get to the beach and be in great shape without even going down this route. But someone who's chronically obese and been struggling for five, ten years with it, and they're on the edge of death, you know, it makes sense for them as a as a bridgeway or a segue into building better habits. So that's just a little bit of context on it.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

I I think as as we come to the to the end of tonight's podcast, I think it's just important that we reiterate. I think Francis, we we share the same position here. We're not anti, we we're not against anything, you know, but what we are trying to say is do you need it? What's the context of you needing it? And don't go too early, don't go too much, and try and get an understanding and a foundation there, fundamentals we've mentioned, so that you can build on top. Again, start at the bottom, start at the bottom of your cake. This this cake um analogy is gonna uh hot haunt me for years. But the cake getting bigger and bigger. But again, if you're gonna make these decisions, then make them from an empowered place. Make them from a point where you know where you're gonna be and where you're gonna move to, and understand that there are risks and what potentially are you gonna do if something doesn't go the way that you would want it to, I think is is probably where I'm at with it.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Yeah, we're both on the same page. You know what I mean? It's it's just make sure that you've your habits, your fundamentals are in place. Don't try and pipe it over the cracks with supplements or special supplements, peptides. You can't pipe it over the cracks. You or you can only do that for so long before it's gonna come back and bite you on the ass. And just make informed decisions, get your blood stone, you know, be smart about it, think about the long-term potential risks that can happen, and you know, make the the smartest possible decision for you, but be informed. I think that's it, mate, isn't it? We'll leave it there.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

I think just signing off for tonight, obviously, thanks for everyone tuning in. Um if you want to get in touch, Francis is at Coach FHM on X on Twitter, um, drop him a DM. Um I've also got um Francis' email as well as my own handle, which is Benjamin Yeezus, and my email and the footer of the podcast. And just to say as well again, thanks for everyone's support, and we'll be back next week for episode six.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Episode six coming in hot. See you all later, everyone. Thank you.