Michael Derby from Anchor Point Therapy

In this 3rd installment of Systemic Stories, Leonie and Laura interview Michael Derby from Anchor Point Therapy in Geelong, Victoria.  We learn about: 

• Michael's first introduction to systemic practice
• Hearing stories of Michael's experience working with trauma, harm and shame as a family therapist
• Practical tips, frameworks and ideas on working with harm and shame with an individual, a family and the wider system
• The intentional stance of the therapist, including the importance of understanding our own family of origin influences
• Helpful ideas on using the Exploring Shame therapeutic card set
• Practical tips for other family therapists and clinicians working with trauma, harm and shame

This podcast isn't about a "right" way to be systemic.  It's about privileging multiple perspectives through sharing a range of systemic stories.

Laura is recording on the lands of the Turrbal People.  Leonie is recording on the lands of the Yugambeh People.

Acknowledgement of Country

We are honoured to be on the ancestral lands of the Traditional Owners of the areas we are recording from.  We acknowledge the First Australians as the Traditional Custodians of this continent, whose cultures are among the oldest living cultures in human history.   We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples across the nation.

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This podcast isn't about a "right" way to be systemic.  It's about privileging multiple perspectives through sharing a range of systemic stories.

Laura is recording on the lands of the Turrbal People.  Leonie is recording on the lands of the Yugambeh People.

Acknowledgement of Country

We are honoured to be on the ancestral lands of the Traditional Owners of the areas we are recording from.  We acknowledge the First Australians as the Traditional Custodians of this continent, whose cultures are among the oldest living cultures in human history.   We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging, for they hold the memories, the traditions, the culture and hopes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples across the nation.

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SPEAKER_01 0:11

Hi everyone, it's Leone here, and I've got Laura as well. Um, and I'll introduce Michael in a second. And um, welcome to this episode of Systemic Stories, Practice and Possibilities.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Thanks, Leone. Super excited to be here with Michael and hearing about all about his practice.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Yeah, fantastic. So today we are talking with Michael Derby from Anchor Point Therapy. And Michael is a mental health social worker and clinical family therapist, the author of Exploring Shame Cards, also a speaker for conferences and webinars, and based in Geelong, Victoria. So Anchor Point Therapy offers counseling and therapy, supervision, consultancy and training, and policy development. And I have been following Michael's work for a little while now, connecting on LinkedIn and becoming really interested, Michael, in the fantastic work that you do. And then, of course, it was great to meet in person at the Australian Association of Family Therapy Conference last year. And I think I've just been really struck by the importance of the space that you work in, working with the effects of shame, with trauma and abuse within that relational systemic framework. And so welcome, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Thanks, Leonia, and thanks, Laura, for having me on. I'm looking forward to the conversation that we're going to have.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

So to get started, do you think that it would be okay if you introduce yourself a little bit and let us and and our listeners know how did you first get introduced to systemic ideas and who planted that seed?

unknown 1:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

Yep. So as Leon is introduced, I'm Michael, and um I've done a lot of my career, but I also am uh I'm Scottish. Um I'm originally from Scotland, and I'll touch on that in how I got introduced into family therapy. But I'm also uh mad um animal lover. So I have a dog called Neeps and a cat called Haggis. So Haggis, Neeps, and tatties is the traditional Scottish dish. And so I just wanted to introduce myself by saying that um, yeah, I'm a keen animal lover. So I've got a Griddle and a cat.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

So how I got introduced to kind of family therapy and systemic ways of thinking was in my undergrad degree, social work degree in Aberdeen and Scotland, um, and in my social work degree. And so one of the kind of units was on counseling, and one lecture was on family therapy. And I just loved not only did I love the presenter, but I loved the concept. And the concept that the presenter was talking about was it's all fair and well to do counseling with someone, and you can you it's almost like people are in a stream, and the streams really are the river, and it's really intense in that river. And when you do single work, like just single counseling, you just take them out of the uh river, you teach them to walk, and then you chuck them back in the river again. And actually, that's not really kind of teaching them how to swim in that river. And so I thought that was a really great analogy of how systemic work can work, and that we're actually teaching people to swim in the river or do the dance, um, the family therapy dance. So this work kind of came up um through teachings. And then when I migrated over here to Australia, I worked in foster care and I worked um with a young person who was leaving care. There were restrictions for him around his uh contact with his family or how he would then progress with family once he left care uh due to engaging in harmful sexual behaviors with his brother. And so we had to then facilitate family conversations and um the practice leaders and the principal practice at the time were family therapy trained, and so they really went into how we can have a whole of family view as well as sing with the whole of family to then be able to have these really hard conversations, which I just thought was um really neat actually. It was really kind of because it really kind of pushed things forward, um, and then coming from my own experience of my family of origin, where hard things get uh sweeped up swept under the rug, and I don't like that. I like to kind of go full throttle. So when they start to talk about these really hard things, I was like, oh wow, like this can be really um impactful for people and beneficial.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I love that. I love how it feels like systemic ideas have been woven kind of through your life and your studies, and I love that analogy about the river. So tell me how you feel like you're operating as a family therapist now. Like, what do you what what does that look like nowadays?

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Yeah, so currently I work in private practice, I've as we've talked about, but I've had an 18-year history of working with children and families in outfome care and foster care and children and worked in child and family services, and then worked in sexual abuse and harmful sexual behavior field. And so through that, there's a lot of systemic work that's happened. And one kind of really key example that stands out to me and how kind of family therapy fits neat here is I was a therapeutic specialist for our home care, so for residential care. And the carers kept on saying about this young person, they're so entitled, they are so entitled, they come in, they just expect things from us. How dare they kind of the carers were up in arms about it. And so, what that got me thinking of is contextual family therapy of the ledger and the indebtedness. And I was saying to the carers, you know that like indebtedness, there's a whole thing around it, right? So then through conversations and some training, we started to look at the destructive entitlement that this young person had gone through. And so we know that destructive entitlements happen when a child or young person is not receiving safe nurturing care that they're entitled to. And so through these young people's lives, they don't, they've not had that. They've not had a secure person that they feel really safe with. And so their old hearts are being revenged now, here and now, with those carers, and then into the future. And they project those losses onto the world. So the way that they were operating with the carers was because they were so hurt and wounded inside. And so we started to look at the alternative, the constructive entitlements and how we do that. And we do that through fair return for efforts, so acknowledging where the young person's at, but then acknowledging that they are trying to connect through some way or being, even if they are using language that maybe we wouldn't choose to use. Um that the positive reinforcement of them, even just a young person coming back to the home to either just have some food or just uh touch base and praise as well, acknowledging when the young person's done something really well. And it could just be again, just something small, doesn't have to be a big thing. This is the big one though, acknowledging the past and the hurts that have happened so that the constructive entitlement can occur. And these can be through small incidental conversations, through it can be through just media, social media, watching social media outlets, and then kind of thinking, oh, that might be like what it's like for you. And how then you can acknowledge that harm that's really happened. And it has to be done in titration because you can't step too far into that because it might become overwhelming for a young person who's experienced significant trauma. Um and the entitlement's earned through the relationship. So as adults, we have to be um kind of holding that relationship so that then the constructive entitlement can occur. And it helps the young person to enjoy their life and encourage for commitment because if they have had really hard experiences of relationships where they've been let down, then you're not really going to commit to a relationship. So it has to be built over time and slow and steady. So it's kind of one example of where it's happened and kind of more of a not as a traditional space as kind of a family therapy kind of um sitting down and talking with the family. Um, but then in private work, currently, uh we often use it with children and young people, and they could be, they could be um contextual family therapy uh interventions, absolutely, but more of a traditional one is structural interventions, and that's not meaning that you want to have the uh adult or caregiver overpower the child or young person, but I like I like to think of structural interventions as a way of allowing the child or young person to have that space to be a child or young person, and so that they're able to then explore the world and what they need because there's a lot on children and young persons' shoulders at this moment in time.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Social media and just the way to be and the pressure. So it's like, how can we as adults take that pressure off and they can allow to be children and young people exploring the world? And so what that can mean is that how can we negotiate this in in a therapy session of well, what um for a child or young person, what are you willing to kind of give up, give up something? And what's mom and dad willing to give up? So it might be chores, like so many chores, might be just choosing one chore that they've got to focus on. Um and for a child or young person, it might be kind of um just re-establishing what is kind of regular for their age and stage and what's going to really help them through. Um and and acknowledging that it's gonna feel really weird because you've done something different. So it's just like giving it a little go. So that's a kind of a structural way of thinking about it. And then again, back into private work. I work with uh fathers where they have caused harm. And so again, when we start to think of contextual family therapy, we think of the ledger and type and entitlements that we've talked about before. But this time, sometimes fathers are getting their indebtedness either through the children or trying to keep control of a situation that uh can lead to harm. Because often we know that when people are trying to be controlling, they're feeling out of control themselves. And so that what that might look like is looking back on their own childhood, working through who looked after them. So thinking about that um acknowledgement of past hearts, that who looked after them, what was that like for them? What do they want to pay forward and what do they want to do differently and how they can do that? Um, so there's a couple of ways how it's showed up in the work.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Michael, that sounds so interesting, like such a variety of work. You know, it sounds like you might sometimes get some families that are really struggling, um, but still a family together. And then sometimes you've got young people who are in out-of-home care, in residential care, um, and then working, you know, with fathers as well. It just sounds like such a great like variety of work for you. It is that something that you kind of intentionally um set up to have a bit of a balance, or is it just kind of landed that way?

SPEAKER_03 11:26

I think it's landed that way, and this is a kind of a funny family of origin kind of story is when I was 18 and I was trying to decide what I wanted to do um as a career. And anyway, I went away and volunteered in India for six months, which is probably another story. But when I was looking at um what I wanted to do, I was saying to my mom, think I want to be a teacher, think I want to be a teacher. And she said to me, You will get so bored because it's very routine, and I know you, and I know that you like to have variety. And unfortunately, or fortunately, my mom knows me well, and um, yeah, so here I am with uh variety. So whenever variety happens, I do chuckle to myself and think of my mum uh telling my 18-year-old self that you need variety, so um, which is a it's a lovely story.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

It is a lovely story, and I think you're in good company because I think Laura, you'd probably agree that we both like a lot of variety in in um in work as well.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Totally, and it often just happens, doesn't it, Michael? You just like suddenly are doing all these different pieces of work, and but I can hear this real solid thread for you that you're always thinking about the person within their family or it within relationships, and it's like you're not scared to go there and talk about and think about these other people in their world. Um, and again, I'm keen to know, you know, what are the challenges with that as well? Because obviously you've mentioned there too, even like working with fathers that have had violence with the family. So tell me, let's get real about how that looks and how you get those fathers in the room and and yeah, kind of manage safety and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

So with fathers or people who are causing harm, it's a lot about um selling them the benefit of what we could do here. So it might be that they want a better relationship with their child or young person, or it might be that they don't currently have a relationship, but they might be expecting what that might look like. And so for me, it's always about setting up the expectation of I'm going to challenge you, not because I don't agree with you, but because I want what you want and you want a good relationship with your child, and I want you to have a good relationship with your child, but we need to have it focused on what the child needs, and that is fair and reasonable. So kind of making those agreements with them that it would be fair and reasonable. If the child is saying right now no, then that's fair and reasonable to listen to the child. And so speaking them through that because that's heart and rejection for them. And then that might be part of their childhood rejection. So setting up kind of the agreements, I suppose, about what we're going to focus on and how we're going to focus on it and how I'm going to be quite direct with them when I think things might not be fair or reasonable in any sense, in any way. Um, and that can be, you know, can be either way. It's also about saying, saying to fathers, if there have caused harm that you might need to speak with police, or if there's an intervention order, or gain that information so that you can understand a holistic picture of what's happening and that, you know, that's again to support them and they can speak it through themselves, or you can um get seek out other information through their agreement. I would be very cautious to if they disagree with that, then exploring what the reasons for that is and what's going on for them. Um, but then I'd be very cautious around kind of just keeping safety because um we know that people give them, give us their point of view in therapy, and also they will tell us what they want us to know. Um, and so it's about always understanding what's happening as well as setting up with fathers around that there's no we're not gonna keep secrets. There's gonna be times where I do need to share information across the subsystems, and how we do that uh would be important. So kind of acknowledging the um restricted confidentiality within within the setting, because we can keep some things confidential, but it's not really gonna benefit to the to the system if we do that, and especially if harm's being caused, which I imagine everybody listening has their own kind of uh spiel about how you might say that to someone. Um I think it's kind of loud and ingrained in us. So um, yeah, it's just kind of those nuances and looking at those nuances and understanding that violence happens as a way of meeting someone's needs. Violence, I have to be very clear, violence is never okay, whether that be physical, emotional, sexual, never okay. Um, and in the same breath, someone's trying to do something in a way that they're trying to get their needs met. Um so it's kind of setting that up for fathers. The other, the other problem that I do face and challenges I do face is when, and I think I might have mentioned this earlier, is when someone's denying that there's a problem. And again, this comes from my own family of origin where I might get uh unstuck, is that um because we're just sweeping it under the rug. And so sometimes I want to go in and just rip the rug out and pull it off and and kind of show people that there is a problem. I have to be really mindful of that because I have lost people before, as in that they just then feel so unsafe. It's too much, I've gone in too hard. Um, so it's always about noticing myself, my body signals, and then how I can then work with that to work uh someone through around. Let's um look at the problem. And one of the ways I do that is using the what if question. So, okay, so you you're agreeing, you're saying that it didn't happen, and I can see that that's your point of view, but what if it had happened? What would it be like for you? What would it be like for someone else in the family? So, really kind of talking that through with them just to kind of plant that seed that it that it could have could have happened.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Yeah. Michael, there's just so much in what you've said, um, really, you know, kind of um the way you've articulated working in this space. One one thing that really caught my attention though was thinking about what it takes to maintain that um, I don't know if you use the language of multi-partiality or, you know, yeah, because um as someone who's worked a lot also with young people in out-of-home care, you know, who experience the effects of relational trauma and supervising and training in that space, I know that for some people it's a real struggle, um, particularly for some people, balancing being child-centered with being able to hold space for working with people who've who've acted in harmful ways. And and I think that's that's tricky for a lot of reasons. And I guess I'm I'm really curious what helps you maintain that position of multi-partiality so that you can be effective in this space.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Well, for me, it's always about saying, especially if a young person's been harmed and then they're causing harm, um it's saying very clearly to them that harm, as I've said, is never okay. And the reasons it's never okay is because it's harmed you. The little bit that I know is it's harmed you. And um, we can talk about that if if you want, that's what I often say to them. But if you don't, that's also okay. But what I can't then stand for is saying that then violence or harm is continued, and we can't continue down that line because I don't want you to be harmed, I don't want other people to be harmed. And explaining that harm, someone causing harm isn't just causing harm to the other person, they're causing harm to themselves. They're not standing by their values of who they want to be and what they want to be, um, and really that injustice piece of they're trying to get justice and again, a destructive way. But how can we do it in a better way that actually you can get your voice heard? Because I know that it's really important uh for them. And and for me, I think I think as a child or young person, we can't we can't say that we've never like we don't have lived experience of being a child or young person. We all have a lived experience of a child or young person. And so then it's thinking about when we were disempowered, how do we want to empower, how did we want to be empowered and how that might be helpful for others? It might not be, it might be, you know, just you need to reflect on that, you're really thinking about that. So holding that kind of violence is never okay because it's harmed you. And I really believe that young people, children and young people hear that. They hear that you're standing up for the harm that's happened in their past, and then they can see that you're actually just standing up and saying, we can't continue this way. Um, because I don't imagine that it's it might be getting you what you want, but it's not in the way that you want to get it. Um and then it's kind of going through that value base again about like I know, like I've just met you for 15 minutes, but the sense I get is that you're kind and you're empathetic, or and being true to that, not being, I'm not meaning that like flippantly, saying something that you actually can see a value of theirs and then relaying that to them because I think it's kind of connecting into their sense of self and seeing the behavior is just it's a behavior, it's not who you are.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Wow, that's so powerful. And I I'm just thinking about a lot of threads through what you've said were around these kind of yeah, people's values and helping them almost find like meaningful goals within the work as well. That sounds really important when you're working with someone who's maybe been in lots of conversations that haven't been tackling that meaningful part, but it's been reprimanding conversations. Is that what you find as well? That these are like almost new conversations that you're having with people.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah, yeah, I think it is. And it's not it's not about reprimand reprimanding, as you said, it's about like working out what this really goes back into then parts like internal family systems. Like, what's this part actually wanting people to know? Like, because it's it's screaming, it's shouting very clearly. Um, so yeah, so working with it, but not accepting that harm uh is being caused. And I think this is the kind of next part is when someone's kind of facing up to the harm that they've caused, is then providing empathy not on not on that the harm is okay, but that how it is for someone to show up in those spaces because it's hard. And we all know it's hard because we have we are people, we have made mistakes in our lives. And if we think about one of the biggest mistakes we've made and then asking us to own it, um it's it's hard. It's a really difficult position to sit with. So then you've got a stranger or someone that you've started to develop a therapeutic relationship with, then start to kind of uh hold accountability to you. So it needs to be done in a very empathetic and kind way, um, but still holding that kind. Line that you know I'm doing it because um I know that your values are this, if that makes sense. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Do you think, Michael, as a family therapist, holding, you know, we think intergenerationally as well in terms of context? And I know, like for myself, that thinking about where people have come from helps me hold that kind of like empathy and and understanding and kind of mentalizing their position, even when it's not okay, what they've been doing. Do you kind of draw on that multi-generational context as well in how you think about the people you're working with?

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Absolutely. Absolutely. You can't, I just think you can't get away from it. Um, you know, we know epigenetics exists and how that can manipulate uh brain development and then kind of having factors in the environment that then kind of open up certain situations. Um, so yeah, the intergenerational play is is massive. And we often, it's really interesting, and this is maybe moving towards a controversial topic, but we think about wars and we think about World War II and how impactful that has been, not only to the generation that went out there and fought, but to then every generation after. Yes, we we now live in a free world, and that's kind of the benefit of it. But the downside has been significant violence within homes and how that then has been played out. And we know, you know, support for for those people. For example, um, BTSD wasn't acknowledged. It was talked about shell shock and one of the wars. So it's like these kind of supports are now in place, but the kind of intergenerational impact has been massive. And um, yeah, I I think it's it's not as much unpacked um as maybe we should. And we often think about then intergenerational um patterns through kind of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander um families and what that looks like and what does that mean. And I'm so mindful of my own position of being Scottish and what that means to that community. I do think I think there's so much Australia can learn from that community and how we can then develop further. Um, just the way they even talk about family violence, about healing their men, like I think that's a beautiful way of starting to think about family violence and how they want to use community to support that. But um, yeah, I just think there's so much we can learn.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I'm just thinking about that analogy you had at the start around working within the river, like you know, and the context and how important that is in terms of this work. Um, now I love a card set, and I love that you've developed a card set. I love a good practical tool. Can you tell me a little bit about how that came about, but also how you use them in your practice?

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Sure, yeah. So um they came about because so I worked a lot in sexual abuse and harmful sexual behavior, and what we saw was a lot of uh shame. And the reason why I know shame very well is because I'm bisexual and so I don't really fit into any kind of category. And so then there's always like shame around my sexuality, or there has been enough work through that. So I know when someone's sitting sitting in shame, ah, like that's that's probably what it is. And so I got very attuned to it and very used to it. Then I moved away, I moved into being a therapeutic specialist in residential care, and what I saw was chosen young people in shame. And I was amazed at the system around them, just couldn't, we're like, what do you mean? Like, I don't get it. And so that's where the kind of idea was kind of born that we need a practical resource because everything in kind of care and residential care and foster care, you want to make it really practical and accessible for people. Um, because what we often have in our country here is very traumatized uh children and young people um with people who are haven't had as much um experience or education um in these parts. So it's so it's how do we hold all that? So that's where the kind of idea was born. And then thinking around the themes of shame and what comes from shame and how it is expressed differently. Um so you know, we can see anger and shame, but people often miss that kind of angry hot uh part of shame. And then, you know, thinking about that, there's a there's a theorist about the compass of shame and where shame sits. And that's quite an interesting kind of framework to start to think about. And then also, and also uh Alan Jenkins' work. You cannot talk about shame without Alan Jenkins and Brenny Brown coming together, they hold very two important places on shame and shame work. And so we start to develop these kind of themes when we start to look at shame and what comes about shame, and then um questions on the back, because we know in the polyvagal theory that shame sits in the frozen response. And so if we get curiosity in, then we start to engage our ventral vagus nerve. So then we can actually have curious conversations to shift what's happening. And so through the curious conversations or curious questions, it's about sitting with that and understanding and unpacking it. Um, so there's different cards that there's about 30 cards, and they all have a different image on it with uh kind of a title of what the shame is, so it could be anger. And then on the back, there's two questions. Um when I use it with families, uh, when there's been significant harm caused, you might you choosing when to use it and how to use it, you might use it in subsystems, for example, first and then bring it in. I also use it when um sexual assault has happened and how we can work with someone through sexual assault, especially if the shame was quite caught. Or therapists who are into EMDR or havening or any kind of processing, you can use the cards to get to the part that you want to process, and then you can process from there. For people who are not um trained in that processing, um, then it's more about the conversations of how do we explore the shame because we know the two things we know is that shame needs to be connected with, which will reduce it, but we are often very scared to connect with it because we have our own shame experience and we worry that it's going to make it diff um worse.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

And I can imagine, like whenever I think about shame, it's so hard sometimes to find the words. So I can imagine like the cards just help bring a different way of thinking and talking about what's being felt. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah. Um, Michael, with all of this experience that you've had, and I'm thinking particularly working um with harm, with people who have acted in harmful ways, with people who've experienced harm, I think that that area can make a lot of practitioners nervous. And so I wondered if you, I mean, you've you've given us so much rich information. I just wondered thinking about it and thinking about people who might be in that space, would you have like some key learnings or um or tips that that you could share for people who are working in this space as well?

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah, yeah. So probably one of them is that each person within the family have their point of view, and that is okay, and we don't have to agree with it, but we can hold accountability and empathy together in key moments, and that's really important the way that we do that. So when someone's facing up, as I was talking about before, you hold accountability and you hold empathy together. We also would listen to when someone's caused harm, we listen to the person who's been harmed. And it might get quite complex because two people might have used harm. For example, you might have the person who's often talked about as the primary aggressor using the violence, and then someone responding with violence. And so, in those conversations, if you're working with someone who is the primary aggressor, the conversation is violence is never okay. Yes, that person was violent back, and that's not okay. And we have to look at what the reasons were for that violence too. So it's like not um often people get worried about colluding, but giving very clear messages that violence is never okay and that things can get heated and both fight styles can come out, and that's never okay. So it's it's always on that line. Um, and that this work takes time, it takes a lot of time, and we know that through the harmful sexual behavior work uh here in Victoria. They did a review, they worked out how long cases were taking, um and often it would take a year and a half to two years for children and young people to move through the service, and that is because you don't start off with the harm that's being caused, you often start off with something a bit softer and gentler so that you can build the relationship up. Um, so we know it's gonna take time, and then it's also if there's often which there is trauma behind that, then you're working with the trauma too. So you're working in quite a complex area. So it's okay. And I often think seek supervision if you're really kind of bit worried about something, seek it because your body's telling you something that's not saying right. Um, so we all know that kind of feeling where you're like, oh, I'm just gonna go and talk to someone here. Um yeah, and that family therapy can occur when you've got one person in the room. So if you're working with the person who's caused harm, you're you're thinking of everyone in that family. You're thinking of the person who's been harmed, and when they're responding, you're thinking of that in a way that then you provide an empathetic response that can be accountable to, um, and really kind of digging into that uh for them. So to me, it's about taking it easy, having supports, um, and knowing that the work takes time. Um, often there's kind of theories out there about not nodding when someone who's using violence is talking about the harm. You can avoid that. To me, it's about saying, you know, just to let you know, I nod a lot. Um, and that doesn't mean I'm agreeing. I'm not I'm not agreeing. I'm just kind of acknowledging what you're saying and I'm thinking as we're talking. Um, so just kind of making that about uh such a good tip for someone that does a lot of nonverbals.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I'm gonna take that with me.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

And you'll you'll you'll catch it because you'll be like, oh, I'm nodding and they're talking about something that's really harmful. Let me just and you can just jump in and because I think we can't be robots, we have to be ourselves. We have to show up authentically if we want someone to show up back authentically to us. Um, so that's probably my biggest part of advice there.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I'm hearing so much in that about how you come in to a conversation or come into the therapy room is really important in terms of the clear messages, the stance you want to take, how you kind of position yourselves between people in that room. Um, yeah, I think that's a really important thing that um sometimes I think we do unconsciously, but hearing you talk about it just shows how intentional I guess you are in your practice.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Yeah, yeah. Because I think you have to. I think when harm has been caused, you have to be really intentional with every step that you're taking.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah, for sure. Michael, it gets me thinking as well, and and I don't know if you've said this word, but I have um just this strong like sense and feeling of like hope and belief in people. Um that I yeah, I can see you nodding, and and yeah, that must underpin your capacity to you know to show up and and believe that things can happen.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Yeah, yeah, I gen I genuinely do. I believe that people can change. Um and it's that kind of joke, isn't it? Like uh, you know, if you if you ask a social worker if they want to change the light bulb, um, you know, what what will they say? Well, it's if the light bulb wants to change. Um people will want to if they want to change, and sometimes the heat has to get turned up um so that the change can happen. And sometimes what that means is is not I'm not meaning turning up through violence. What I'm meaning is systems turn up, uh turn up the volume. So that might mean intervention orders are in place or court orders are in place, or there's um children are going to be removed from care, like that turns up heat, and then people are like, Oh, I need to change. And sometimes people are ready and and wanting to change, and sometimes they just they don't. Um but the conversation is is if we continue down this path, what do you think might happen? Um because it's ultimately a choice, but if you make a choice, then there's going to be consequences from that choice. But I do believe in hope and in change.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

I love that. So as we come towards the end of our conversation, um, Michael, all the systemic practitioners out there listening, or the family therapists, or even um individual therapists listening, what's a key message that you think would be helpful for them to hear from you?

SPEAKER_03 35:05

Um I think I think when someone has caused harm, working with the whole of system is really important. Um one thing I didn't talk about when we're talking about shame was that um the whole system holds shame. So when harm's been caused, everyone will hold shame. And to shift that and to shift the kind of drama, the person who's um engaged in the harm, who's responsible for the harm, needs to own up. And that can take time. So it's really important that either someone is working with that part of the system, so then we can come together and acknowledge the harm that's been caused. Otherwise, what we see is people who have been harmed, they're left with all this shame and trauma, and then they have to work through it themselves. So if we think about it as a system, working with the part that's really causing the harm really helps and prevents further harm from occurring down the future.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I think that's so important. That, yeah, that wide view, isn't it? And kind of um, yeah, seeing like even when you were talking about the the wider system around turning up the heat and relational moments happening in a therapy room, and also, yeah, how a system can hold the shame around harm as well. I think they're really powerful messages.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, they are. And then the kind of the thing I often think is how do we nudge um the edges and move systems forward? And we need to think innovatively and systemically, as we can see that um family violence, domestic violence, and sexual assault is increasing. It's not decreasing. And so, how do we think systemically? And and you know, there might be reasons, multiple reasons why that's increasing. Um, but as change makers, we need to start to think about innovative ways uh to do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Michael, I feel like we could talk to you for hours. Um, and I I actually really like that seed you just planted about thinking much more kind of broadly as change makers. And um, maybe if you're up for it, we'll we'll pick up that conversation again in another episode. Um But I just want to say thank you so much for your time and um just kind of hearing you speak about your work. It's you know, it's just been for for me really fantastic. Um, and I'm sure the listeners will appreciate it as well. And and what about you, Laura?

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Well, I have like a literal list of practical ideas. So I have loved hearing about your practice, Michael, and I'm taking away a lot.

unknown 37:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Thanks, thanks both. Thanks to you both. I've had such a great time just having a conversation about the fun work that we get to do.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

Well, oh sorry, Laura.

SPEAKER_02 37:51

I was just gonna say thanks, Michael. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

All right, well, well, thank you, and thanks everyone for tuning in. I guess this is you know, this is an awkward moment because we still haven't worked out our sign-off. Um, and so we get to the end and then we say we're awkward, we're signing off. Okay, goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Thanks again, Michael.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Wow, so Laura, another fantastic conversation. So grateful to be able to chat with Michael. Let's have a few minutes talking about some things that caught our attention. Um that's you know, our process for our podcast. Um, and I guess the first thing that I wanted to talk about was just this both ends of accountability and empathy, and how you know, holding both um, and then you know, kind of gently bringing the shame to light can can really enable more effective work, you know, with that that hope for change.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

And leading in leading, leaning into some hard stuff, you know. Um, and I can imagine in this work, like um, you know, there's so many invitations just to back away and not talk about it and sweep it under the rug, as Michael would say, but I can really hear that there's a real intentional, we're gonna lean in gently and in a paced way, um, into some of these things that we need to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah. And I think I heard a lot of threads through through the conversation just about how important that systemic lens is, you know, right from um that beautiful metaphor about the river that Michael shared at the start um through to at the end talking about how shame impacts the whole system, include including us as a therapist too, right? Um, yeah, and I just yeah, I really appreciated how important a systemic framework is in this area.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Oh, for sure. And alongside that um systemic frame, I really heard some practical tips come from Michael around laying expectations, being really clear about how, as a therapist, you're gonna work with someone in this space. Um, what are we gonna do if we disagree? What are we gonna do if um, yeah, all those invitations come into the room? And I love that idea that Michael spoke about about knowing your own stuff so you know how to pace the session well for your clients, and that reminder that this stuff takes a lot of time. You know, if we can't put pressure on ourselves to fix everything in two sessions, like he was saying, it was like 1.5 to two years. So I really like those reminders that this is kind of the art of therapy, that we have to take our time, we have to think about um how we're walking into these spaces and what messages we want to give. The other thing I picked up, and I think it's the OTME, is this idea of having goals that are really meaningful for the person as well.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

So the goal isn't don't do harm, but it was based in like, I want to be a different father or I want to have better relationships. So kind of spending time, getting to know the person and what drives them so you can have meaningful goal on the table when you're doing the hard conversations.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

Yeah. And I think the sort of a practical tip, I guess, if you I don't know if you'd call it a tip, that layers around that is the importance of supervision and self-reflection and looking after, you know, kind of yourself as the therapist. But I really liked what Michael said, you know, on a practical level, tune into yourself and what's your body telling you and noticing when your body's telling you that you need a bit of support too, because this is this is really tough stuff.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

100%. I think that's the only way to do this work well is to be really mindful of what's going on for you in that space and what's driving your next question. Yeah. Um, I also wanted to comment on this idea of hope and change, and I think that's so important, thinking about why we do what we do. We have to have the hope that things can change. And often clients come to us, particularly when there's been harm or violence, feeling really hopeless and stuck. And I think part of our work is to try and help them also feel that there can be change and that there is hope about that things can be different.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah, 100%. Is that a good spot to end our reflections? I love that hope. Yeah, I love that too.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Okay, well, tune in next time, um, and I'm looking forward to more of these conversations with any.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

Yeah, me too.