007. Quadriplegia, Despair, and Learning to Truly Live ft. Joni Eareckson Tada

Joni Eareckson Tada became a quadriplegic at seventeen after a diving accident that severed her spinal cord. In the nearly six decades since, she has written dozens of books, founded a global disability ministry, survived two bouts of cancer, and woken up every single morning asking Jesus to get her through the day.

This is a conversation about what it means to receive suffering with both hands: the anger, the prayers that didn't get answered the way she hoped, the agony, and what gets faithfully built through it all.

About the Guest

Joni Eareckson Tada became a quadriplegic at seventeen after a diving accident that severed her spinal cord. In the decades since, she has become one of the most recognized voices on suffering, disability, and faith in the world. She is the founder and CEO of Joni and Friends, a global ministry serving people with disabilities in over 100 countries. Her memoir, Joni, has sold more than five million copies. She is an artist, author, and speaker who has shared platforms with Billy Graham and appeared on programs from the Today Show to venues around the world. She and her husband, Ken, live in California.

AMA Opportunity:

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What This Conversation Explores

• The diving accident, the hospital room, and the slow realization that nothing was going to change
• What it took to move from wanting to die to learning to give thanks
• A 17-year-old boy with a Bible and a verse from 1 Thessalonians and how he changed everything
• How a passage in Mark 1 reframed what Jesus actually came to do
• What Joni discovered about sin that she couldn't have learned on her feet
• The prayer she prayed three months before her accident and what she makes of it now
• What the cross has to do with finding God in suffering
• Joni and Friends: wheelchairs, Bibles, and changing the disability culture of entire countries
• Disability ministry as disability discipleship
• Two bouts with cancer, a radiation machine named after Jael, and what it means to press into Christ
• What to say to someone who is in pain right now

Resources Mentioned

• Joni — Joni Eareckson Tada
• Joni and Friends — joniandfriends.org
• Wheels for the World — Joni and Friends wheelchair delivery program
• Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies We Tell Ourselves — Kate Bowler
• William Law — quote on receiving suffering with both hands
• Dorothy Sayers — on God wrenching good from evil
• Dallas Willard — on the heart, behavior, and the Sermon on the Mount
• 2 Corinthians 4:8, Philippians 4:13, 1 Kings 19 — Scripture discussed

About Formation

Formation is a podcast that explores the science and soul of spiritual formation. Each episode brings together the ancient wisdom of the contemplative tradition and the best of modern research. John Ortberg sits down with some of the most rigorous and honest thinkers working at the intersection of faith and human flourishing for extended, unhurried conversations about how we are being shaped. New episodes every other week, wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And then all of that changed in a moment of uh unbelievable pain that's hard for most of us to imagine.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

In 1967, which seems like another lifetime ago, I was a reckless teenager, but I went to the beach that day and uh did not check the depth. I just swam out, powered my way out to this raft. When I broke the water, I came in and snapped my head back, and it smashed my spinal cord. I'd be a quadriplegic the rest of my life without use of my hands. I sank into such a depression. Wanted to end my life, wanted to stop living, wanted to disappear. When I begged for their mother's sleeping pills and their father's razors, they did not.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Wow, I don't think I knew that you had asked for those.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

I couldn't face life.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Johnny Ericsson Tata. You have lived life with a faith that is an inspiration to folks all around the world. You have written many books. The book Johnny has sold more than five million copies. There have been movies about your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Somehow this is part of the story. I must start it well. If I can't die, God show me how to live.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

If I can't die, show me how to live.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Show me how to live.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

It's estimated about 1.3 billion people around the world have disabilities.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

There's a need for over 18 million wheelchairs. Let's find those people. Let's find those children. I don't want them sitting in a wheelchair and waiting around for heaven. No, I want them to experience the joy in suffering right now. Our vision is to change the disability culture.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Where do you find the cross in your story?

SPEAKER_00 1:43

It's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Johnny Ericsson Tata is somebody I have known and admired greatly. My wife Nancy has admired greatly for many, many decades. You grew up with a very vibrant physical life, athlete, captain of your field hockey team, horsewoman, musician, artist, and then all that changed in a moment of unbelievable pain that's hard for most of us to imagine. And you have lived life with a faith that is an inspiration to folks all around the world. You have written many books. The book Johnny has sold more than five million copies. And there have been movies about your life. We're actually taping this in on the campus of Johnny and Friends, which helps folks who have disabilities all around the world. We'll talk about that a little bit. It is just an enormous honor. It's always a gift to be able to sit down with folks and talk about God like faith, but in particular today, as much as ever. It's just a huge honor. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Thank you, John. You are one of the easiest persons to talk with. And so if if I didn't need to be interviewed by anybody, I'm so glad it's you.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Well, that's very kind. I hope you still feel the same way by that time we're good. I bet I will. So there's not going to be many, but there may be some folks who are watching that aren't familiar with your story. So uh would you tell however you want to just what happened on that day when your life changed in 1967, which seems like another lifetime ago, uh I was a reckless teenager.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I had already um received my life-saving certificate. And of course, rule number one check the depth of the water. But I went to the beach that day and uh did not check the depth. I just swam out, powered my way out to this raft, pulled myself up onto it, and my sister, I waved to her, although she had her back turned to me and was heading toward the beach, and she didn't see me take that dive. But immediately uh when I broke the water, I came in and snapped my head back. And you know, we all feel feel those little bones back there, and that fourth little bone down from our skull. That's the one I broke. And it smashed my spinal cord, and I was face down in the water, and uh my first thought was my sister didn't see me. She's she's not gonna know I'm ready to drown. And little did I know that at that point, that very point, um, a crab bit my sister's toe, and she quick turned around in the water to scream to me, Johnny, watch out for crabs. And when she did, she saw that I was floating face down. I had colored my hair the night before, Midnight Summer Blonde, by nice and easy, and it was just kind of floating on the water, and she saw the shock of blonde hair and rescued me just as I started to take in water. Oh, isn't God amazing that he saves us, but boy, sometime's just by the skin of our teeth, just in the nick of time. And so I was rushed to a hospital, and the doctors told me I'd broken my neck, severed my spinal cord, I'd be a quadriplegic the rest of my life without use of my hands or my legs. And I didn't know what in the what in the heck he was talking about.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I really didn't, and it just did not compute. It wasn't that I denied what he was saying. I just did not understand. I I he was talking a foreign language. It it did not sink in that I had power I'd become paralyzed and would be this way for the rest of my life. That that thought was just too unbelievable to take in. But when I finally uh realized that this isn't this is my hands, my feet, I'm not getting better, no matter how much physical therapy I'm taking, I sank into such a depression. And uh wanted to end my life, wanted to stop living, wanted to disappear. And um, but thankfully there were some uh good Christian friends who I didn't know that they were praying for me, my young life friends mainly, praying, getting together, um, just interceding on my behalf, coming into the hospital room, bringing their guitars, you know, pizza, cookies their mother baked, teen magazines, painting my nails, connecting me to reality. And uh I I I I just felt I began to change a little bit under their love. It was amazing. Long process, but but the way it started out and how depressed I was, but yet how they kept me connected.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

When I begged for their mother's sleeping pills and their father's razors, they did not, they just, oh well, yeah. Let's sing this new Simon Garfunkel song. How about it, Johnny? You can you could do harmony, and they kept me living little bit by little bit by little bit by little bit.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Wow, I don't think I knew that you had asked for those uh I was asked for those things. Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. Um it's funny, Johnny. I I found myself almost reluctant to even ask that question. Because I thought when I read through Johnny, you're a very gifted writer. And your description of those early pages of the accident and what happened and what took place in your body and in your mind. I I don't know how anybody could read that and not just be physically wrenched. Uh and so I found myself thinking, I don't want to make you revisit a story that's gonna be pain, but but but at the same time, you write in there that you feel compelled to share your story.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, and I feel like it really was a lifetime ago. Yeah um I'm not saying my paralysis is easy, uh even after nearly 60 years of being in this wheelchair quadriplegic, it's not easy. And am I grateful for what happened? Well, when I look around and and see what God has used, how high how He has used my life to uh reach other people with disabilities, that's that's tremendous. In a strange way, it's worth it all. I can say that now. If you would ask me if I when I was 17 years old, oh Johnny, you know, don't worry. When you know when you get to be about you know 30, 40, you're you're gonna be part of a global ministry that's gonna reach people with disabilities, and you'll be its inspiration. What do you think of that? I would have said, that's nice for somebody else. I'll take my hands back, please. I'd rather walk than do that. But yeah, God is so so wise, so so wise.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

What was the what was the process, the journey like when you went into the hospital? Was it like one moment when you kind of realized, oh my body's not gonna work again, or was it gradual? How did that play out?

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Well, the this uh this charcoal drawing right here, the this is something that uh when I was in the hospital, um I I drew this and um I just wanted to disappear. But there was one um friend who said finally to me, Johnny, do you want to get out of depression? And I said, Yes, I do. I I'm I'm afraid of the future, but yes, I can't. I can't, I'm so tired of being so down and discouraged. And he he opened up his Bible to 1 Thessalonians 5.18. And he said, Well, here's here's a good place to start. In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. I said, But I'm not thankful. Like I was like, I've got enough when I was on my feet. I I'm not I'm not thankful. I can't do that verse. He said, but read it again. It says, does not say in everything feel thankful. It says, in everything give thanks, Johnny. But you're talking about a life of total paralysis. And he said, Well, start small. Start thanking God for things for which you can, like uh your hospital bed is right next to the window. You can see the trees and the birds, and your family is supportive, and friends are coming to see you, and and you you you have a you have a a place to go home to. You you have a supportive community, a church that loves you. And so I did that. I just started started small. Okay, God, I'm gonna thank you that uh I've I've got an order today to go down to physical therapy. And I know they're gonna help me learn how to try to push my wheelchair. I I guess that's a good thing. I I thank you. I thank I th I thank you for that. I thank you that I pushed my chair three feet. God, I thank you. This is what I did. I just thanked him for the fact that they served breakfast on my side of the hospital hallway first, so maybe it wouldn't mean it would be warm. I mean, I thanked him that that my hair was getting washed at least once a week. Just little things. And and after a while, I just uh experienced this miracle of feeling thankful.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

What was it about that relationship? Because I could imagine if I'm in his chair thinking, well, if I was in a chair like Johnny is, then I could say these words to her, but if my body could move, I uh it would feel presumptuous to give instructions. What was it about your relationship that gave him the freedom to say those, that kind of challenge for you, and that enabled you to receive it from him?

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, I asked him that once. And he said, well, he was only 17. He was 17. 17-year-old kid, and I was 18 or 19 in the hospital. And he loved the Bible.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

He'd been raised with the Bible, and he read a verse like Romans 8.28, okay, all things fit together to a pedom for good, uh, to conform us to the image. Well, the worst thing that's ever happened to me is that it has rained on my paper route. But boy, if this verse can work for this lady and the this girl in the hospital bed, wouldn't that be something? And so he said he he challenged me and asked me tough questions, as though he were grabbing my hand and together let's jump off a cliff. Wow. Let's just jump off the cliff, let's just try this. And he didn't reveal that at the time, but later on he said it was like grabbing my hand, holding onto the word of God, and let's just take a leap of faith in it.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

So it's almost like he was testing the scripture to see is this stuff true. He said doing that with you.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Right. He said, boy, I don't know if God could do that. I wasn't sure he could, but but he did. And isn't that amazing? He did. It was like he was almost surprised that he he saw me slowly start to change over time. And and nothing's quick. Grace works so slowly. Yes, it impossibly slow, it tries our patiences so slow. Um, but he could see the incremental changes in my life. And I think that encouraged him to share more with me. And uh, we became very good friends. He he ended up being my spiritual mentor and uh my go-to guy whenever I had a question about the word of God or my or my my walk with him or uh what do I do? Or so one of those things of how the shows the value of discipleship.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yes, yes. Um so it was a gradual process. Was it kind of generally straight line up and to the right in terms of your own like emotional and spiritual life? Was it peaks and valleys? What how would you describe the trajectory of it?

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I think the the trajectory was a little like a bull market. It was just just going slowly up. We're going, we're going up, we're moving up. And uh the valleys never plummeted uh back to those desperate days when I was first in the hospital and wanted to kill myself, and I'd thrash my head on the pillow hoping to break my neck up at some higher level.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Oh, no kidding.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Oh, I I just yeah, I just didn't, I couldn't face life. Yeah um but this young man and my friends, of course, the only friends and others, um I don't know. They rallied around me. And you know what, John, it shows to me that when you're hurting, when you're grieving, a great loss, you need community. I think what was unique about our friendship is that once I saw I could be thankful, I I wanted to learn more, show me more. That was amazing in my life. What what is next? Wow.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

Um gave you hope.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Absolutely, that's that's the word. Um I didn't realize it, but what I was desperate for was hope. Yes. Um and I I found that in in in that community of friends who supported me. I found that hope in the pages of scripture that just um made my faith look forward. Hope is just that, it's just looking forward. And and uh I think um I don't know, the turning point I often say when I was in the hospital was if I can't die, God show me how to live because I can't do this.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

And um If I can't die, show me how to live.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Show me how to live. I remember praying that and um then I was out of the hospital and looking forward. Hope is what I found.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I think when we're drowning in despair, we just need hope. And and it's often community, community that comes around us that offers us hope.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

I've never thought about it this way before. Did you have to um die to let go of whatever the hope for physical healing before you could begin to get the hope of life could be worth living, gratitude could be possible, moments could be good?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

I think everybody's got to go through all the spiritual injunctions in scripture. Yes. You go to elders, you get anointed with oil, you pray the faith. But my problem is that I I pray in faith, but God didn't answer the prayer because I'm still in the wheelchair. Oh, so I need more faith. Okay, so I have to pray. It's a it's that psychic. Vicious service. Yeah, it is. And finally I went to a Catherine Coleman uh healing service. No kidding. I did. Yeah. Of course, sure. But I'll never forget I was in the wheelchair section, and uh she comes sweeping out on the stage in her white gown and the spotlight and the the organ crescendo, and and uh then their healings, the healings start happening way, the spotlight goes way over there on the other side of the auditorium, and then it's over there, and someone's shouting, and then the spotlight moves there, and the spotlight never came to the wheelchairs. Somehow it seems like it's always legs that get lengthened, and yes, and so I will never forget um the ushers escorted us out early, and there we are, about 30 of us uh sitting in our wheelchairs or standing on crutches or leaning on walkers in line at the elevator, and I'm number 15 in a line of 45 people or whatever, thinking something something's not right with this picture. Yeah, God should God, I I can't I cannot believe God is the kind of God who would have us jumped through so many hoops. What is happening? Yes. And I went back to my friend, this friend Steve, his name was, and um, then we started looking at some priorities of Jesus when it came to healing. Like in Mark chapter one, uh he's healing all these people the night before. And early the next morning it says in Mark chapter one, I think it's starting with verse 35, he gets up early to go and to some solitary place to pray. But before you know it, Simon comes looking for him and says, You know, Master, there's all these people. We're looking for you. You've got to come. And and the thing he says is what was like a bang in my head regarding healing. He this is what he said. Jesus said to Simon, let's go somewhere else. To the nearby villages where I can preach there also. And then he adds, for this is why I have come. And when Steve showed me that, and it I lingered on it, I began to see that Jesus was more interested in who I am, not what I can do. And uh his purpose is not to make me healthy and and happy and playing tennis and you know planning a ski vacation, his purpose is to make me like him. And uh boy, that was a big turnaround for me.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

You were you were you were having to construct a theology, only not in an abstract way that a lot of us do about questions about stuff out there, but in order to live one day at a time, day by day, and find hope and find his presence, you had to find a way to understand him that would give you a foundation.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

And I'm glad you used that word understand him, because uh after that point, when I realized I I would not be healed, I I I really I'm going in. Okay, I'm going into the word of God here, because I see thus far that all of my stepping stones and high points and you know the the milestones for me and my my walk and excuse me, my my faith, walk, walk of faith, were little anchors from the word of God, and and and they were building something. And uh so from there on out I realized that I I I want a deeper healing. I just don't want something transitory that's only gonna last until I go to the grave. Uh I want something that's gonna change my soul. And so I began uh eating up, memorizing the Bible and uh you know one of your one of your questions uh uh I I I think you're gonna ask me um was uh were there any verses that whose meanings changed?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Were there any verses in the Bible whose meanings changed for you over time? Well tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Okay, delight yourself in the Lord and He'll give you the desires of your heart. I mean, everybody, you know, or Jeremiah, uh I have plans for you.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

I know the plans I have for you.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

They're for hope and a good future as you are dragged off into exile in Babylon for 70 years. You know, I I um I used to think that those all meant, you know, no good thing will he withhold from those whose walk is blameless, Psalm 84, verse 11. I used to think that those verses uh were meant for me, you know, uh the Catherine Coleman era, you know, no good thing will he withhold. Okay, walking is a really good thing.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

And it says he's not gonna withhold it.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

He's not gonna withhold it. So all I gotta do is, you know, keep my nose clean, keep my walk blameless. And um then I began to see that God's idea of good goes a lot deeper than than this than the skin surface. He's he's looking for something deeper within. And now uh delight in him, and he'll give you the desire of your heart. I want you, Jesus. I'm delighting in you, and you know what? I want nothing else but you. You know, who have I on earth beside you? And there's nothing in heaven beside you that I can desire more than just you. And so uh that deeper healing, John, became an utter delight with Jesus. Oh my goodness. He is he's the treasure. He's a he's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

He's not the consolation prize because you didn't get that. He actually is the better gift.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Oh, he is so much better.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

I sometimes, uh when I can't sleep at night because of pain or my breathing, um, oh John, if you saw what I look like when I go to bed, I've got external ventilators and nebulizing machines and chest percussion therapy machines and a lymphatic sleeve and compression hose, and I've just I've got so much stuff wrapped around me and on me and breathing for me. My husband stands at the guardrail in my bed at night and he says, Are you okay? Are you set? Because he knows I'm gonna have to be in that position until probably you know four o'clock in the morning, and I can't move. And I I'll say to him, pray my faith not fail. Yes, really, yes, and I'm not kidding, I pray my faith not fails. And uh somewhere in the middle of the night where I've been pain, and I I won't let it defeat me. I won't fight it, I'll talk to it. You're not gonna pain, you're not gonna defeat me. You know why? Because 2 Corinthians chapter 4, verse 8, God assures me that though I am hard-pressed on all sides, I will not be crushed. Pain, you can't crush me, because I've got Jesus. I I see him, I'm walking into this fiery furnace of pain, and I see Jesus. And he's transfigured that fiery furnace to a place of union with him. And it's just, it's just so sweet.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

I think of that passage sometimes, uh uh pressed hard but not crushed. And then Paul says, uh perplexed but not in despair. And I think I wonder what it would be like to talk to Paul when he's perplexed. You know, we don't tend to think about him in that state very much, but he says, now I'm not going down the road of despair. I will keep going, I will get up tomorrow, I will face life tomorrow. That's about it. I I don't understand. I am perplexed.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I find that word kind of helpful. It is very helpful. I I tell you what else is helpful where he says in uh 1 Corinthians, I think it's chapter verse 9, where he says, Um, I don't want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the problems we endured in Asia. We were hard-pressed on all sides. We we despaired even of our lives. You know, what is it like to Paul to think, gee, I'd rather die than face this? You know, despairing even of your life. It's helpful to know that a great apostle felt that way. Yes, yeah. Really is. It just bolsters my spirit that I'll get through this. Yes. I will get through this, I won't be crushed.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

No, I I think uh this this uh sketch that you did of yourself, drawing that you did of self, you said the word that comes to mind when you look at it is anguish. And uh uh to have that drawing and that reminder that that's a part of life, and it may be stronger in one season and not as strong, and then it may come back again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

That's part Well, I love it because it shows me where I did come from.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

This is where I came from. It's just not my portrait anyway, it's everybody's portrait, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 26:57

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

We've all had problems and pains where we we we feel like that. Like, God, what are you doing? Yes, how can you do this? Yes. And um, you know, of all the things I've painted or drawn, uh it's one of my favorite because it shows me, it keeps me humble, like where I've come from. And uh to not rest on any bed of roses or or wreath of laurels, you just gotta keep needing Jesus every day. And this is the truth. The truth is when I wake up in the morning, John, I almost 60 years of paralysis, and I get the pain and breathing and same routine, and I see, Jesus. You're glad day, glad day. Is this the crowning day? Yeah, I thought, could I maybe this is the day you'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

I'll wait for the Lord nor anxious people.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Jesus, my Lord, I soon shall see. Glad day, glad day, this is the crowning day. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

It's good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And so I pray, Jesus, I can't do prowess this one more day, but I can do all things through you as you strengthen me, and you're good on your promise. I know you are.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

I mean, sometimes my pain is so bad. I will I will say to him, You really think I can do this, don't you? Well, I think I don't think I can.

unknown 28:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

But I've learned over these many years to trust you at your word rather than my feelings, and so I'm going to believe you. And I know you will show up. I know your grace will be more than sufficient. I believe you. And you know, John, and that and and my relationship with God, because it's been urgent and daily, and it it's it's made it a real adventure.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

So let me ask you about anger in God. And there's a uh writer who was a good friend, wonderful Christian writer, Lou Smead, who wrote a great book on forgiveness, and he has a chapter on forgiving God. And obviously that's a metaphor. Jesus teaches that God is perfect and in him is light, and but our world's not perfect. So he tells a real old Jewish story. A Taylor's coming out of the synagogue, sees the rabbi, what have you been doing? I've been praying. Oh, did you confess along with your prayers? Yes, Rabbi, I did. What'd you confess? Oh, I confess my little sins to God. I tell them every once in a while I cheat a little bit on some cloth, and the rabbi said, You said that to God? I said, Yeah, I cheat a little on cloth, you let babies die. I will ask you to forgive my little sins, and if you do that, God, I will forgive your big sins. And uh it seems like if you read the Psalms, how long, God, how long? You know, will you be silent forever? Or Job, you have shot you. Somehow it seems like Jewish spirituality a lot of times is more at home with just real raw, including expressions of anger, frustration towards God than we Christians in the church tend to be. I tend to be more cautious on that kind of stuff. What has that been like for you? Would you, as you think about your relationship with God, does being angry with God feel like it fits you, doesn't fit you, why, why not? Uh where where does that fit in your journey?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Well, I certainly would not forgive God. You know, I you were talking about uh Job and the psalmist, and I sometimes wonder when uh what was it who touched the cart? Uzziah was it?

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Oh, and David's when David is bringing it in, and Uzziah touches the cart.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

No, no, no, not him. Hold on a second, I gotta think. Isaiah the Hittite. When David sent his men off to war with Joab, and of course, you know, the mighty men were there with Joab, and Hariah the Hittite was one of them. And uh, while everybody's fighting David's war, he's back at the palace and he looks down, he sees this woman.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

The Bathsheba story.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Bathsheba, right, right, and so uh you know, I won't go into the whole long story. He he sleeps with her, she becomes pregnant, so he he tries to pull the wool over everybody's eyes by calling Uriah back from the battlefield and go sleep with your wife, and oh no, I will never do that, King David. And so he, you know, Uriah is the the the man who sleeps at the with the servants at the door, and and um so David eventually sends him back to the front lines and tells Joab, make certain that that you know Uriah dies. Uriah dies. And uh so then Nathan, of course, scolds David, and David confesses, and God says, I'll let you go. But you know, there'll be some consequences, and but yet David marries Bathsheba and goes on living and fights some more battles, and is lauded and praised by his people, and and you you gotta wonder what you uh Uriah's father felt like. Yes, like okay, you just the guy gets off just writing a song, and that's it.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

And the the old testament's full of that. And God did pay, God did make certain justice was done. And of course, that's why the whole Old Testament keeps keeps looking forward to the cross. So I was angry with God. I I felt terribly guilty for doing that, but I but I I was honest. I said, God, I just I don't I don't know why you pick me. And um my wise friend Steve he said, Well, if you're angry at God for what he did, let's see what he did to his own son. I said, do you think that um Christ's crucifixion, do you think that that was God's will? And I said, Well, yeah, sure, because that's the way we get saved. And he said, Well, let's consider this. It was Satan who entered the heart of Judas, it was it was pride that uh that uh Pilate was after when he handed down mock justice, it was the thirsty mob in the streets that screamed for his crucifixion, it was the drunken soldiers who who beat him up and flogged him. And okay, so you got there, you got their murder, torture, treason, you know, all these things, and you're still you're still telling me it's God's will. And he I was I was at a quandary, I didn't know what to do. Yeah. Say, because yes, God sent Christ to the cross, but all these things were involved that were evil and wicked. And um he showed me Acts 4, verse 28, that these men did what God's power and will had decided beforehand should happen. And when I realized that um Jesus was tortured and gouged, and his body was impaled on a couple of slabs of wood, like a slaughtered piece of meat, left to drip dry, and I and when he told me just to look at that just to sit on that, and this is what it costs for you to be freed from your sin and have eternity of joy and peace and heaven and I think by let go of my anger because of what God did for me. Um He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us. So how he would not also graciously give us all things. And so those all things are like okay, the courage to go on, the perseverance, the endurance, the the grace gift of faith. Yeah, you know, it's all these things, uh, community.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Um cross changes everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yes. Cross changes everything. And besides, he said, you know, maybe it was, I don't know, Satan's will that in the crucifixion he'd stop God's son dead in his tracks and say, I'm gonna have no more talk of redemption, none of this, let's get rid of the Son of God. But God has this way. I think it was Dorothy Sayers who said he could reach down to what otherwise looks like awful evil and wrench out of it. Oh, I love it. Positive good for us and glory for himself.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

And uh yeah, so that's what he did. He he aborted, God aborted that devilish scheme to serve his own ends. And he said to me, Johnny, it could be the same for you. Yeah, maybe, maybe, I don't know. You know, there's so many second and third causes to consider when there's an accident like yours. But you know, maybe hey, if Satan did push you off that ramp with the back of his foot, um, God can abort that and and turn it into something that's um good for you and glorifying to it.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Thought about it quite like this. It's almost like finding the cross in all of our stories. Like, where do you find the cross in your story?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

It's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Yeah. As you continue in that walk of faith, um, amazing things begin to happen. And your art is amazing. I can't draw a straight line. I never understand how you're able to do what you do with that. And people start noticing that. And uh you go on the Today Show with Barbara Walter, and uh people know you, you write books that sell millions of copies, movie about your life, speak with Billy Graham. So now you're this famous person. How does that impact you know your walk with God, your journey of faith, your life?

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Well, thankfully, my walk with God was just that. I was waking up every morning and needing Jesus and going throughout the day, I need thee, oh, I need thee, you know, and and I just constant, prayerful, opening up my soul to heaven and always keeping my spiritual directed toward Jesus. And and uh being in that that frame of heart and mind, I my first thought when fame you know was such a big deal, I must steward this well. This is somehow this is part of the story. God has given me this incredible global sphere of influence. I must steward it well. And uh, of course, to steward it, you you you put something together through which, you know, your dream and your vision to replicate in other people with disabilities what he has taught you, you know, the things from God's word. You know, the books just weren't, you know, to write books. They were to help people like myself, quadriplegics, paraplegics, uh, moms of special needs kids, um, people in depression because they weren't healed. My pastor, you know, told me I can't come to his church anymore, you know, because I make too much noise when I when I laugh.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Oh, that happens a lot. And yeah, that happens a lot. Not not so much nowadays, but but a lot. And so I wanted to do something that would um create a way, a pathway for other people with disabilities. And and uh I shake my head in amazement every day. I wheel into this headquarters and I think God, I'm so honored, I'm so privileged. Why, how did you pick me?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

So do just talk a little bit about Johnny and Friends, and I think uh I uh my guess is a fair number of people listening to us would be surprised to find out. I think the last that I looked at uh is estimated about 1.3 billion people around the world have disabilities.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Yes, and where they live in a tough situation. I I don't think there's a meal that I that I eat with my husband where he doesn't pray or I don't pray. Oh God. 90% of the world give anything to have was a what's in front of me. Wow. And and and for some reason you give it to us. Wow. And I we don't deserve it.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

So educate us a little bit about that ministry and the need around the globe. And if there's any stories you want to tell about somebody whose life has been touched, love to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Well, uh we our first thought, and that won't go through all our programs, but my first thought when I worked with our board of directors was I want my life, I want this ministry to be a conduit through which we can give the gospel uh to people with disabilities, and not just the gospel that saves them for eternity, and God bang the gavel and they're justified because they believe. No, I I want I want to give the gospel that saves them every day, that sustains them and shapes them every day.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

Kingdom is here.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Right. The kingdom is right here. I don't want them sitting in a wheelchair and waiting around for heaven uh when they can finally be happy and things will be better. No, I want them to experience the joy and suffering right now. And so that's how I frame the gospel. And uh we just started, okay, how can we do that? We can do that through delivery wheelchairs. You know, there's there's a need for over 18 million wheelchairs around the world. Let's find those people, let's find those children and provide for them adaptive equipment that will really increase their well-being in their community where they can get around, where they don't have to lie on the dirt floor all day. And and uh, okay, so we got wheelchairs, we got Bibles. Well, then let's educate those pastors. Let's provide training for those churches so that they understand that people with cerebral palsy are not cursed. They're not cursed by a local witch doctor. They're made in the image of God. Let's bring God's truth into dark communities. And um, so that's how we started probably our largest program, Wheels for the World. Um, the wheelchair just became a toehold into a country because our vision is to change the disability culture. But it all started with asking the question: how do we reach these people for Christ? Oh, they need wheelchairs. Well, great. This is a wonderful way to give the gospel and do training in churches and eventually change a community. And uh so we work with rehab centers, we work with um, you know, clinics around the world. We establish Johnny's houses, we have 16 Johnny's houses, and we're planning more places where, well, for instance, in Nepal or Johnny's house, is a place where some of the uh special needs families who live way up in the mountains, they're mostly Hindu, and they come and uh we provide a place for them to stay while their child gets surgery. They can't afford it, but we scholarship those surgeries so that these uh parents can uh have their child receive the proper medical care that they've never received. But while they wait, we ask them to participate in our in our worship services and our Bible studies. And so it's a way for us to uh plant seeds.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

And does stigma tend to be attached to disabilities like across the world? And when you talk about changing the culture of disability in places, is that part of it?

SPEAKER_01 44:00

In America, people with disabilities, uh, oh my goodness, we've got the Americans with Disabilities Act. Uh we've got the uh the individual uh intellectual disability education act, we've got so many, the rehab act of nineteen seventy-four. We've got so many, so many privileges in this country. Um, access to medical care. It's not great in all states. There have been cutbacks and benefits and services, but for the most part, people with disabilities here in America, we have so much. But when you live in the mountains of Peru or Honduras or in Thailand, where disability is a shame to the family, and that child never comes out from the back bedroom. In fact, I was just downstairs talking to interns who tomorrow morning at 5 a.m. are leaving for El Salvador to work in our Johnny's house there in El Salvador. And you know, they're going to go out into these villages way up in the mountains and provide home care and delivery of medical supplies and services. It's just wonderful to be part of a movement. And it's really the and friends. I'm Johnny, but it's the and friends who are carrying the bulk of the load, and I'm honored and privileged to work with them all.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

How about with the church? I know the American Disabilities Act's like 35 years old now, but churches were exempted from it. And I saw there was a survey by Lifeway a few years ago where 99% of all pastors said, no, people with disabilities would feel included in welcome in our church. And uh about half of families that have a member that's got disabilities said they had to leave a church because uh they did not feel welcome or included there.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

How are churches doing and how can we do better?

SPEAKER_01 46:01

To be honest, churches are doing much better. Much better. Um there are still occasions when uh families have to leave a church because uh there's a subtle uh resistance to change. Um these families, sure, they'll be welcomed at the door, of course. Um no Christian's going to turn away a family. Yes, come on in. But they are looked at as a problem to be managed, not people to be celebrated.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

And that's where we need to go a little bit further.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Um we we have uh we have access, we have inclusion, we have mainstreaming. Um but families want to know that if they don't show up next Sunday, they'll be missed. Yeah. Somebody's gonna miss them. Somebody's gonna call them. Where are you? We miss you. And uh that doesn't often happen uh because they are still problems to be managed.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

And uh that's that's the tough thing. And that's why I basically think of discipline ministry as discipline discipleship. Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's in relationships that we change. We change in relationships. And discipleship occurs when people just become friends, and you and there's a there's a need, a need around which organic community grows. You know, often we try and structure it the other way, where you do our small groups and you know a point curriculum, and everybody shows up at a certain time, and you bring the dessert, and and it becomes a but it's but people wander and away, and sometimes it just flitters away. And I think what people long for is real community, and that happens when there's a need. That that happens where um somebody like me shows up and says, I I need help getting up tomorrow morning. Can anybody help me? Maybe just one hour a week, and and then maybe a couple other people help, and before you know it, there's a there's a ministry going on. People help me. Oh, thank you so much. Before you go out the front door, let me pray for you. Just having a relationship back and forth. That's what that's what uh that's what changes things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, it's relationship, it's discipleship, it's I like you, I want to get to know you. Yeah, you are quirky and fun with that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah. How about on on the other side of it, at least not doing harm? Uh, there's a uh church historian Kate Buller, who uh uh uh was diagnosed a few years ago with stage four cancer, being kind of kept in line by immunotherapies, Christian. She wrote a book called Everything Happens for a Reason, Another Lies That I Have Loved. And she has a chapter towards the end of it where she writes about 10 stupid things that Christians sometimes say to somebody who has gone through loss or suffering. Um take a minute to coach us all on as we're talking, particularly with folks that have disabilities. What are stupid things not to say? What are ways that we can at least not do harm and then and then what are ways that we can be in relationship effectively?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Um I think stupid things are uh okay, here's one. People are afraid to ask questions. You know, they they want this family with a child with a disability, maybe down syndrome, whatever, to feel welcomed, but they don't ask questions. It it's so easy when you say, we want to embrace you here, but you're gonna have to help us because we don't know what you know. And we want to know ways that we can better serve you here and make you part of our family. Will you help us do that? That's a smart thing to say, but a stupid thing is to say nothing and be afraid to talk about the disability, or you don't want to offend, you don't want to feel awkward, you don't want to embarrass them. So you end up saying nothing uh except, you're welcome, we're glad you're here, and uh let's see if we can find a place for you to sit.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Are there places, churches that you know of that are particularly good places that uh good to learn from?

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Yeah. There's one story, this is kind of fun. It's a small church in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and um the pastor and the elders were um having a bit of a struggle with uh so many young people with disabilities in the service. And so uh the director of the special means outreach um decided that they would have a worship service on Wednesday night. And so it became joyful praise. And they provided uh drums and you know jingles and and all kinds of musical instruments and and people and the fame of this little Wednesday night thing spread. Oh gosh. And before you know it, some typical people, uh, typical people, typical, the word typical is what you would use. You'd say this, you're typical, you're not disabled. You're not necessarily able-bodied because you could get cancer soon or something, but you're typical of most people. And anyway, the typical people just started pouring into this Wednesday night thing and and just having the best time. And so now what they do is it's it's people have just so embraced this group of young people with disabilities that they are celebrated in the service. And of course, then there comes a time when they have their own um Christian education opportunity. But the people love this group because they they heard it was a lot of fun, and come and volunteer, it'll be a blast, you'll enjoy it. Yeah, and they do, and they catch a vision, they catch Jesus' vision to go out and find the disabled and bring them in and do this because my father's house will then be full. My father wants a full house, and I want these kind of people in the house.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

And there's joy when it happens.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Oh, such joy, yeah, such joy. And I think part of the joy is all the norms are are the way.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

And people are a little more free to worship. Have you been in a worship service like in Africa? It's just it's fun.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

It's just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

A lot more noise, a lot more movement, a lot of trills going on, a lot of percussion.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Right. And uh there's something about that playful spirit in worship that's I think necessary.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

I think that um we post picture perfect churches that are all rules and regulated and uh stiff and uh hard to stay awake. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes at my church I want to get up at the front just for wheelchair dancing.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

That would be cool. Liturgical wheelchair dancing. Yeah, I think so. Um, there's a section in your book that I wanted to ask you to reflect on for a moment. And this is this gets back to kind of spiritual growth and an insight into the nature of sin that you write about that's really interesting to me. So I mentioned this writer Dallas Willard has been a big help to me. Part of what he talks about is the disagreement between Jesus and the scribes and the Pharisees. Oh, tell me about it. Over what makes somebody a good person. And he Dallas says the scribes and Pharisees generally say, you're a good person if you don't sin and you do perform good acts. And Jesus says, No, a good person is somebody who would naturally not sin and who would naturally do what are good acts because things have changed on the inside. That if you aim at the level of behavior, you're not addressing that constant flow of thoughts and feelings and perceptions that are so the whole metaphor of if it's a good tree, it'll produce good fruit, is referring to that. We have to aim at how do I change that constant flow of thoughts as opposed to I didn't kill and I didn't commit adultery. So in the Sermon of the Mount, for instance, when Jesus says, when he's talking about lust, if your hand offends you, cut it off, if your eye offends you, pluck it out. I used to think that just sounds weird. Is it hyperbole? What is it? And Don said, no, Jesus, it's a reductio ad absurdum. He's just saying, if the scribes and Pharisees are right, and goodness is don't commit adultery, cut your hands off, pluck your eyes out, then you can't sin. But that's not the problem. The problem is the heart. And so, uh, you know, you can be a mutilated stump, but that's not going to help you spiritually. The aim is so it was, oh, that makes total sense what Jesus is saying. What was really striking to me then is reading in your book is you had to go through your journey where you lost so much of what your body can do. You write, I began to see my way of sinning before my accident. Sin consisted of the things I did. But now there was no opportunity for me to give action to sinful thoughts. That's exactly what Dallas is saying, is the big difference between what the scribes and the Pharisees thought, as long as I avoid sinful actions, do good actions. But no, the heart's not changed. Now I began to see sin was an attitude as much as an act. Before the action, the mind frames the thoughts and attitudes that become the basis for our rebellion against God. I saw that my anger, lust, rebellion, although merely attitudes, were sinful, sin was not just all the bad things I did, but an integral part of my makeup. Although there was no opportunity for me to physically rebel against God, cut off your hand, pluck out your eyes, I sinned nonetheless. It was part of it was just amazing to read that. Say a little bit more about that, because I I it just strikes me as something so profound, and in a way, you had to learn it, or were given a horribly painful, paradoxical way of learning about it because of what you went through physically.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Well, yeah. Okay, I'll share something. I don't often share on camera, but oh good. Oh yeah. Um when I was in high school on my feet, and I was involved in young life, I chose G I love Jesus. I really did. But I also love my boyfriend. And boy, on Friday nights, everything got thrown out the back window of his car seat. And uh Yeah. So I I kept up that pattern of sin and and uh then confessing and then going to church on Sunday, and and finally I was so conflicted and I was so enslaved. I think that's another thing. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 57:34

Habit just gets into it.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I I couldn't, I could not. Yeah. I was impossible to break free. And I said, God, I don't want to shame your good name. I don't want to stain your reputation, I don't want to be a hypocrite and say that I love you, and then I'm doing stuff that's not that that's not pleasing to you. Please, I'm giving you freedom to do whatever you want to do in my life to jerk it right side up. Because my boyfriend and I were going to go to our same college, and I and I can't even imagine what we would have gotten into there. So I prayed that the Lord would do that, and I gave him freedom, and I said, whatever it takes, just get me on the right track. And I had my accident about three months later. And at first I thought well God take me so seriously. Oh my goodness. Life was total morality. Um and that was part of the anger I had to deal with.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Because I I thought there was a connection between And is there a connection?

SPEAKER_01 58:46

I don't know. But I know this. I know that I can't reach for the things that my flesh might want. I can't do the things that my flesh might want. And my paralysis is a kind of it's forced me to look inward. Yes. And to invite the Holy Spirit to go into my heart with your shovel and your spotlight. You find every nook and cranny of junk and sordid thoughts and wrongful. You get it all out of there. I don't want it in there. And it's changed my heart. My disability has changed my heart. Sometimes I read that portion of scripture in Hebrews 12 with that discipline. Was God discipline me? You know? It's like a parent loves his child, so he disciplines him. I do not know. Because it's a it's a harsh, yes, harsh thought that God would uh that would be in his plan. But I do know I am a different person. I don't want sin in my life. I want to keep uh pleasing like Colossians 1. I want to walk in a manner that pleases the Lord Jesus. I want to bear fruit in every good work. I I I I I want to delight in him because he's so delightful. And I look back sometimes, I look back in the night in the night, I'll just some sometimes look back and say, God, thank you. Thank you for rescuing me. Thank you, you rescued me through that dive. I'm so grateful. I don't expect a lot of people to understand that. But I'm just so grateful because I I was on such a awful path. And if it if it took a diving accident and paralysis to alter uh that path, then so be it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

Well you have a you have a um quote towards the back of your book from William Law. We were talking about him a little while ago, and I thought it was striking that you chose this, because I, you know, I in my own view, I certainly don't think God goes around and says, I'll make something bad happen to you and something bad happen to you. And I don't think he's that way. But you quote William Law saying this receive every inward and outward trouble, every disappointment, every darkness and desolation with both thy hands as a true opportunity and blessed occasion of dying to self and entering into a fuller fellowship with thy self-denying suffering savior.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:38

I love that quote.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

And what I love about it is it doesn't say I understand or it should be why it happened. It's saying my posture is I will receive it in this way and seek to use it in this way.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Absolutely.

unknown 1:01:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Like I told you, I don't, I don't, I can't understand all God's, you know, God's mind and this whole thing, but I I have received and I want to continue to receive every darkness, every desolation with both hands as a blessed opportunity to enter into a fuller fellowship with my Savior. You know, when when we go through hard times, all of us, we're so comforted knowing that he tells us we've got a high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses. He understands our weaknesses. God is for us, never against us. He he loves us. And it's wonderful that he understands my pain. But the thing that I've learned through my disability, uh, through my quadriplegia, is that it has so pressed me up into a union with Christ that in that vertus I was telling you about, I get to experience his affliction. I participate by sharing in his fellowship of suffering. I get to know his afflictions and touch, just barely touch his agony. And it's it's it's wonderful that it's it's it's it's it's more about him now and less about how much he can help me.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Well, and then you had to go through in 2010, again in 2018, cancer, bouts of cancer. Was that like, oh, what I've been through already has prepared me for this? Or was it like, God, are you kidding me? I had to do that, now I gotta do this.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

No, one of the first things I said to uh our president here at Johnny and Friends was, God must be up to something big. I don't know what it is. Uh I and it's not a detour. This will be the main highway for now. And whatever God has, yeah, it was the main highway. This wasn't a detour, this wasn't an inconvenience and an otherwise tidy schedule. This was the main highway I was to walk on. And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

I love how you talked about you nicknamed your radiation machine, which JL. JL, who is this very bloody who she is. Superhero woman character in the book of judges, where Deborah is leading all the people, and then JL when sister or the really bad guy comes into the tent, has him go to sleep, takes a peg and a hammer, hammers it right through the guy's skull. Which, like, you know how much muscle tone you gotta have. Yeah, yeah. And that's what you named the radiation machine.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

Jail. I want I wanted to have I wanted that radiation machine to have the aim of jail. Yeah. You know, but he just pinpoint that radiation, just crush those nasty little renegade cancer cells. I mean, I I and that's the way I prayed.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

But you find kind of a playful well to go after a playful way to go after I can only do that because God's sovereign. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

I mean, I could only do that because this was the path he, okay, Johnny, we're going on this path. Yeah. And and he foreordained before time began those days that I had cancer, uh, stage three, cancer twice. And um, each time I I just cast myself, press myself up so hard against the breast of Christ. You know, you gotta see me through this, Jesus. And um, oh, we had such a good time though. I mean, we collected, we I bought all these little rocks that had scriptures and uh put them in a big bowl, and then I asked my oncologist, can I leave it on a table somewhere? Oh, sure. And so it had take one and be blessed. So I watch people take these scripture rocks.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

It was just fun to do those kinds of things. And we I don't know, we prayed for the the radiologists, all the technicians, we got to know their names, um, their birthdays, just love doing them as Christ would want us to.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

So, one more question. Uh I'm just thinking of somebody who's watching right now and uh they are in pain. Um they've lost a relationship or somebody that they love, or a dream, or a job, or they're estranged from a child, or they've gotten a diagnosis, or they're filled with doubt, or they're anxious or depressed, and they can't make it go away. And uh uh this is just kind of a moment. Um what what would you say to folks who are discouraged right now, who are in anguish right now? What would you want them to hear?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

I'm always a little timid to tell people what to do. But I would ask you to please, um, when you wake up tomorrow morning, tell God exactly how you feel in all your depression and discouragement, all that you've lost. Just tell him. And confess to him that you can't make it. Just can't do it. Have no strength for it. None. You're empty, you're dry, you're just I can't. But then find an anchor. Like uh, I don't know, Philippians, what is it, 3.14. I I can. I can't do life, but I can do all things I can do today through Jesus Christ who strengthens me. And if you take both your hands and grip that promise, God's God's God's gonna come through. And if you go through the day holding on to that promise and moving forward, find ways to move forward, he'll bless you. He'll bless you. His his word, that promise, will be a light to your feet, and you'll be able to move forward. Might only be a few inches, but it's better than being stuck in depression and grief. So uh be honest with God, tell him what's going on, tell them you can't do it, can't do this, but you can do all things through him as he strengthens you. And it's it's interesting because when you pray that and then make a little effort, the minute you exercise faith to believe that promise and move forward, in that instant, God will infuse you with power. He will infuse you with power. You'll be able to take that next step forward. You know, I often tell people uh who are, you know, in like me in a wheelchair, and um, okay, get up tomorrow morning, take a shower, get dressed, have breakfast, and then wheel out the front door and find somebody who is in a situation more tragic than you are, and find a way to help them. Just be with them.

unknown 1:09:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

I've told quadriplegics in bed who are bedridden, and they have you with their mouth stick through which they uh operate their computer. I've said the same thing. There are thousands and thousands of people that you could encourage. You know, just a stick-em-note ministry. You know, I've one friend of mine who's disabled, she's very disabled. She can't get out of bed, but she texts me every day, a stick-em note of words of encouragement, usually at some quote by an old Puritan. But that's what I would say. That's what I would say. Because you need hope. Everybody's got to have hope. And there's plenty of hope in the Bible. You know, hope is your faith looking forward. One day it'll be better. It will be better. I can even say that to myself. Johnny, one day it's gonna be, everything's gonna be okay. Everything's okay. I can't wait for that day. I get so excited. So I will turn that around. You're a pastor, you've counseled many, many people who are despairing and uh in great grief. What I mean, you know, probably like Job, you should have your friends sit with you for a long time. But what would you say? What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

You know, one of the uh thoughts that was really helpful to me in a difficult time was when I hit a situation that could not be fixed. Because it always felt like, oh, I can kind of fix stuff, but then uh this involved a lot of family stuff, and I realized this will never get fixed. Was your thought about anchors, and anchor for me was circumstances being okay is not an adequate foundation on which to live. So when I hit a place where circumstances are never gonna be okay, I have to find another place to stand. And when you're in great pain, there's kind of an invitation in that to say. Uh another thought that was real helpful to me, it's still interesting, which I can't do it, I can't do it, is that line from uh Elijah in 1 Kings 19 when he's running from Jezebel. And the angel says to him, The journey is too much for you. And it's a strange thing how helpful it was for me just to say those words. God, the journey is too much to me. I can't do this. And I don't know why, but saying that, naming it, you know, then it's just exactly as you said, a kind of power came after saying that that could not come as long as I was trying to think I could do the journey. So, so realizing circumstances may never be okay, that's not the end, that's it's never an adequate foundation for life. We just think it is when the circumstances seem to be okay. Uh, and then and then being able to say to God, this journey is too much for me, I can't do this, and then just wait, and the angel will come.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

And take a nap and eat something.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:53

Take a nap and have something to eat. It's like being four years old, and then you can and then you can journey on a little farther. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:01

That's a good answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:02

It's holy ground. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you.

unknown 1:13:06

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:07

Thank you. And um, yeah, I wish that I attended your church. But I certainly am going to become a subscriber to this channel.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Uh uh I'm grateful to get to be here and get to be a little part of what you're doing. Thank you.